IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 6 April 2018 (all times are UTC)
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| 06:58 | <fiesh> alkisg: did you actively change to systemd-udevd instead of udevd on the fat client image? now our backup doesn't work any more :(
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| 06:59 | I'd like to revert that change and get rid of #%()*@( systemd
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| 06:59 | or possibly gentoo just did that by some update accidentally
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| 06:59 | <alkisg> fiesh: no idea about it; was that pulled by dracut?
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| 06:59 | fiesh: how do I check if I have it here on my image?
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| 07:00 | (like, dpkg -l systemd*)
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| 07:00 | <fiesh> just see if /sbin/udevd exists, vs /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd
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| 07:01 | <alkisg> I have systemd-udevd only
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| 07:01 | <fiesh> hmm ok, gentoo must have done that somehow
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| 07:01 | <fiesh> I'll hopefully figure it out, thank you :)
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| 07:01 | https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1068906-start-0.html
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| 07:01 | haha
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| 07:01 | <alkisg> If there's something similar to /var/log/apt/history.log, it could tell how if it was pulled with dracut...
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| 07:02 | Ah that means you got the normal udev sent by systemd, as all other distros? :D
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| 07:02 | You can't escape!
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| 07:03 | <fiesh> systemd fills a much needed gap in the GNU/Linux ecosystem
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| 07:04 | <alkisg> Oh, I surely agree; I don't even understand the need for different distros :D
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| 07:04 | Different metapackages, sure, I can understand the need for thousands of them; but different distros, meh
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| 07:05 | <fiesh> meaning you expect everyone to use the same binary packages?
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| 07:05 | ah in gentoo I have to mask udev and systemd, and it'll revert to eudev
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| 07:05 | https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Without_systemd
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| 07:06 | <alkisg> Installation methods can vary; if someone wants to install from source, sure, he can do that; but the upstream software is the same, and it's a shame that there's so much fighting over just how to package it
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| 07:07 | <alkisg> If we could add them up, I'm guessing it would be millions of hours of debate and development time, that could be put to better use elsewhere...
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| 07:08 | <fiesh> surely you agree development can also be accelerated by taking different routes?
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| 07:08 | I think creating a monoculture is not necessarily more efficient, it usually leads to a stalemate
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| 07:08 | just look at window, half its awfulness comes from their desperate wish to remain backwards compatible
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| 07:08 | <alkisg> Upstream development accelerated by varied distro packaging? No, I believe the exact opposite, it hinters development when as upstream I have to support each distro quirk
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| 07:09 | <fiesh> well they aren't really, but to an impressive degree they are. if there were a totally-not-backwards-compatible windows branch, it might be much less shitty
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| 07:10 | I think LTSP is a special case here because it's so distro-dependent
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| 07:10 | <alkisg> I don't think backwards compatibility is the main reason different distros exist...
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| 07:10 | <fiesh> no, but different distros exist because of different focuses
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| 07:10 | like gentoo wants to stay very customizable, which is great for some users but sucks for the vast majority I'd say
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| 07:10 | <alkisg> Oh, you can't believe how many hours are spent developing debian/ packaging dirs for all the applications
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| 07:11 | It's not just ltsp. And then they develop .spec files for redhat and what build recipes you have in gentoo etc etc
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| 07:11 | When if this was standarized, they could all be provided by upstream, end of story
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| 07:11 | I do hope appdata will help there
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| 07:12 | <fiesh> but there are inofficial standards that do exactly that, namely certain build systems
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| 07:12 | most commonly autotools (yuck) and cmake
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| 07:12 | they make building software from source a kind-of-standard experience
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| 07:12 | <alkisg> Those only take care of compiling, not of installing and integrating
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| 07:12 | E.g. in debian there's /etc/default; which doesn't exist in other distros
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| 07:12 | And a whole infrastructure with debhelper around it
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| 07:13 | And the developer would then need to learn how to handle it; and that's just a tip of the iceberg of the debian/ dir
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| 07:13 | <fiesh> what developer? I don't think there's much software that needs to know the distribution it's running on
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| 07:14 | even things like databases don't really care
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| 07:14 | <alkisg> Oh, all packages need to know. From the kernel and xorg to systemd etc
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| 07:14 | <fiesh> what? the kernel doesn't care about /etc
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| 07:14 | <alkisg> That's why distros keep maintaining a .diff for each upstream package
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| 07:15 | You'd think; but in debian, there's a system of postinst callbacks after each kernel update
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| 07:15 | <fiesh> and I don't think xorg does that much either, it has its standard paths it searches for configuration files etc.
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| 07:15 | <alkisg> And there's /etc/modprobe and a whole lot others
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| 07:15 | <fiesh> oh wow
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| 07:15 | well I guess I don't know debian well enough
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| 07:15 | <alkisg> The console in xorg is defined in /etc/default/keyboard
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| 07:15 | So debian needs to patch xorg so that it looks there
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| 07:15 | *the layout
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| 07:15 | <fiesh> ok, but that's debian's "fault", xorg doesn't have to care
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| 07:16 | if they want to do it that way, their choice
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| 07:16 | <alkisg> Debian says "we need a standarized location, we don't want every package to put its config wherever it wants"
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| 07:16 | That would be a good thing, IF it was a cross-distro standard so that THEN all software would respect it
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| 07:16 | Now that it's distro-specific, it gets messy
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| 07:17 | I'm sure redhat does similar things, but I don't know it well enough to give examples
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| 07:17 | <fiesh> I agree that standards would be good there
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| 07:17 | but that's different from having one monolithic distro
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| 07:17 | one distribution to rule them all
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| 07:18 | <alkisg> So, if there was a "packaging standard" similar to posix or to FHS, then packaging and compiling and everything would be taken care of by upstream itself
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| 07:18 | So then a distro would be a snapshot+fix backporting, of software available at a time of a release
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| 07:18 | <fiesh> by upstream you mean the individual software developer of each project?
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| 07:19 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 07:19 | kernel, xorg, libreoffice and whatever
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| 07:19 | <fiesh> but that's totally unfeasible
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| 07:19 | they'd have to support every architecture
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| 07:19 | every build type
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| 07:19 | <alkisg> Of course not
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| 07:19 | <fiesh> debug, release, etc.
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| 07:19 | then how would you do it?
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| 07:19 | <alkisg> Some of them already provide appdata dirs
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| 07:19 | Those are almost enough information for packaging
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| 07:19 | <fiesh> and who compiles the software?
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| 07:19 | <alkisg> The compiling and distribution would not be handled by upstream, but by the distro
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| 07:19 | <fiesh> oh I see
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| 07:20 | ok, that would be doable, I agree
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| 07:20 | <alkisg> So if the distros had one repository (of course that supported all arches) and the same freeze/release points,
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| 07:20 | then "different distros" would basically only mean "different selection of packages"
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| 07:20 | Much, much easier for all...
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| 07:21 | <fiesh> and different compile options
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| 07:21 | turning on and off features of software
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| 07:21 | and of the compiler
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| 07:22 | <alkisg> Sure
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| 07:32 | <fiesh> without an authoritative governing body, that's just not going to happen :)
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| 07:48 | <alkisg> well... systemd history proves otherwise
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| 07:48 | If enough effort is put in a specific infrastructure etc, hard to replicate elsewhere... that effort wins
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| 07:49 | But a cooperation model between 2-3 major distros would make things a lot easier, sure
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| 10:35 | <nehemiah> alkisg: I found out that the issue, I talked about with you yesterday has to with the encrypted LVM. Generating a new initramfs using mkinitramfs fixes the issue. I have no idea if this workaround would break other things.
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| 10:41 | <alkisg> nehemiah: nice :)
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| 11:07 | <sunweaver> vagrantc: alkisg: I raise severity of a Debian bug regarding LTSP just now.
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| 11:07 | <sunweaver> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=892626 -> serious (RC)
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| 11:08 | we really would love to remove FreeRDP 1.1 from Debian...
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| 12:09 | <fiesh> alkisg: is /root somehow treated specially? the ssh keys I put in there so that hooking up a hard disk to a client automatically starts the backup over udev with rsync over ssh aren't present, and thus the backup isn't triggered
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| 12:29 | <alkisg> sunweaver: thanks! Hopefully vagrant will find some time to do an upload...
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| 12:29 | fiesh: /etc/ltsp/ltsp-update-kernels.excludes has entries for which files to exclude from the generated image
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| 12:29 | <alkisg> /root/* is excluded by default; if you need it there, you can put it
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| 12:30 | <fiesh> alkisg: ah yes, thank you!
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| 12:40 | <sunweaver> alkisg:
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| 12:40 | alkisg: ok
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| 13:35 | <mmarconm> its possivel to use ltsp with userful ( multiterminal )
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| 13:44 | <alkisg> mmarconm: whatever runs linux *locally* can use ltsp
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| 13:44 | Can your clients run linux locally?
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| 13:46 | * alkisg implemented proper multiseat support in ltsp a couple of years ago... | |
| 13:48 | <mmarconm> Good, i wll test
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| 13:50 | <alkisg> Some companies were offering "zero clients" that just run a network stack locally, no real OS, so no linux support at all
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| 20:02 | <vagrantc> sunweaver: hey, sorry for not tackling the freerdp2 issue ...
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