IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 15 April 2008 (all times are UTC)
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| 04:19 | <jonkke> Hi
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| 04:20 | is there any way that normal user could disable some printers from his/her profile without being lpadmin?
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| 06:45 | <tarzeau> hello
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| 06:45 | what generates the xorg.conf for ltsp?
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| 06:46 | it detects "vga" instead of "nv" on a g4 imac here
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| 06:48 | <Q-FUNK> ogra: seems that there's a lot of running around in circle with the sync request for -geode. could you chip in your support by testing on all the geode hardware you have and reassure everyone that the thing works?
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| 07:14 | <vagrantc> tarzeau: linux distro and release?
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| 07:14 | <tarzeau> vagrantc: debian live + debian lenny + ltsp?
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| 07:19 | <vagrantc> whoah
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| 07:19 | :)
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| 07:20 | tarzeau: so, in a typical ltsp setup, the default xorg.conf generation would be handled by /usr/share/ltsp/configure-x.sh
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| 07:20 | tarzeau: but debian-live may be doing some mucking with that.
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| 07:20 | <vagrantc> tarzeau: you can disable ltsp's configuration with CONFIGURE_X=False in lts.conf
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| 07:21 | <tarzeau> vagrantc: well debian-live generates a working one, i'll test it ...
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| 07:21 | <vagrantc> tarzeau: ltsp's configuration mostly relies on X.org's autodetection
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| 07:21 | <tarzeau> when i run /usr/share/ltsp/configure-x.sh
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| 07:21 | manually i get "vga"
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| 07:22 | if i run X -configure i get:
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| 07:22 | vga too, which is wrong...
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| 07:22 | then the X autodetection sucks
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| 07:23 | <vagrantc> tarzeau: well, 7.3 has yet to migrate to testing ...
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| 07:23 | <tarzeau> true
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| 07:24 | <vagrantc> without knowing for sure, i get the impression huge improvements were made with X.org 7.3
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| 07:24 | <tarzeau> experimental even has a newer version
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| 07:24 | let me try if i can download and install it from sid, on this live cd
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| 07:26 | <tarzeau> yep it works with the xorg 7.3 from sid
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| 07:27 | daduke_: we could just put the *.debs from bee:/var/cache/apt/archives/ into the config/chroot_local-packages/
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| 07:27 | <daduke_> vagrantc in the house!
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| 07:31 | <daduke> vagrantc: FYI, this is in order to provide the LTSP live CD also on ppc
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| 07:35 | <vagrantc> cool
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| 07:37 | daduke: you mean a single CD that does both powerpc and i386 ?
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| 07:37 | <daduke> vagrantc: well I haven't tried that yet, but I saw something about multiarch boot.... so far it's 2 images.
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| 08:10 | <Q-FUNK> ogra: ping :)
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| 08:18 | <ogra> Q-FUNK, please elaborate on the libDDC stuff, a bit more detail there will convince slangasek/pitti i think :)
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| 08:19 | sorry, i'm extremely busy this week, i'll see if i can make a test, no promises though ...
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| 08:23 | <Q-FUNK> ogra: libDDC is not into the driver yet. it will come in 2.9.0. right now, the code differences are minimal and easy to handle. it's mostly about transitioning people to -geode and making them change their static xorg.conf, if any.
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| 08:24 | ogra: well, we mostly need as many supporters of this transition to chip in and give their thumbs up.
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| 09:11 | <daduke> vagrantc: https://www.phys.ethz.ch/~daduke/imac_ltsp.jpg
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| 12:27 | <lns> daduke, that's a lot of daisy-chained power plugs there.. =p
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| 14:16 | <vagrantc> otavio: any comments regarding: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-ltsp-devel/2008-April/001341.html ?
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| 14:33 | <otavio> vagrantc: sorry, can't open it now. Can you give me an overview of the problem?
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| 14:34 | <vagrantc> otavio: just need feedback on the architecture issue, and specific what the procedure i'll need to follow for architecture removals...
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| 14:34 | <otavio> vagrantc: ah
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| 14:34 | vagrantc: well, feel free to reduce the arch list
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| 14:35 | <vagrantc> otavio: at the moment, i'm thinking just i386, amd64 and powerpc ...
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| 14:36 | <otavio> vagrantc: i guess they're the most used ones. Ack from my side
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| 14:36 | <vagrantc> otavio: if someone offers to test and help us support more, i'd gladly add additional ones.
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| 14:37 | otavio: and then at some point we'll need to mail ftp-masters to remove the obsolete arches from unstable and testing?
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| 14:44 | <otavio> vagrantc: testing can be done throught RM team but sid does need ftp-masters
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| 14:44 | vagrantc: so the best is to ask for it to be removed from sid as soon as possible
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| 14:45 | <TheJoel> Can I interrupt everyone for just a minute? I have a question...
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| 14:46 | <vagrantc> !question
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| 14:46 | <ltspbot> vagrantc: "question" is if you have a question about ltsp, please go ahead and ask it, and people will respond if they can. please also mention the linux distro and release you're using. :)
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| 14:46 | <TheJoel> I have attempted the LTSP install, and no pxe image was created. How do you manually create the image file?
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| 14:46 | <vagrantc> otavio: although if RM can remove it from testing, then unstable -> testing migration will work just fine, yes?
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| 14:47 | <otavio> i guess so
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| 14:48 | <vagrantc> otavio: i mean, i'll try and communicate with all necessary parties. :)
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| 14:48 | TheJoel: which linux distro and release?
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| 14:48 | <TheJoel> Ubuntu 7.10.
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| 14:50 | <vagrantc> TheJoel: there isn't a PXE image, just a kernel and initrd.img and pxelinux.0 and configuration
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| 14:50 | TheJoel: should show up in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/*
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| 14:51 | <TheJoel> So you don't need the "pxelinux.0"?
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| 14:51 | <johnny> yes you do
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| 14:53 | * lns starts a wave | |
| 14:53 | <vagrantc> otavio: thanks for your comments :)
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| 14:53 | <otavio> vagrantc: np
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| 14:53 | <TheJoel> So then, which online tutorial would you recommend for the LTSP setup?
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| 14:55 | <johnny> i just used ltsp-build-client
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| 14:55 | and then setup my dhcp server properly
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| 14:55 | that's all i had to do
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| 14:55 | since i already had a seperate dhcp server setup
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| 14:56 | i just had to integrate ltsp specifics
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| 15:06 | <vagrantc> TheJoel: hmmm... http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/l/ltsp/ltsp_5.0.40~bzr20080212-0ubuntu5/changelog
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| 15:07 | first entry
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| 15:07 | <johnny> vagrantc, !
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| 15:07 | would you be averse to addine one more elseif in ldm for LDM_XSESSION var?
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| 15:08 | <vagrantc> johnny: yes, i would rather get it fixed properly.
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| 15:08 | <johnny> is it fair that we are the ones who are compromised ? and everybody else got their wish? :)
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| 15:08 | <vagrantc> we should really just define it at build time.
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| 15:09 | <johnny> i didn't quite understand the objection to warren's idea
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| 15:09 | <vagrantc> fair, no, but is it fair that debian and ubuntu are at the bottom of the list even though we were using it first?
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| 15:09 | <warren> which idea?
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| 15:09 | <johnny> doesn't matter where you are on the list.. just that you are there :)
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| 15:10 | for letting the server figure out which session to run
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| 15:10 | <vagrantc> johnny: it requires server-side stuff and i don't see any issue with a more simple fix.
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| 15:10 | <warren> vagrantc: technically the server SHOULD be deciding what to run
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| 15:10 | <johnny> well.. his way seems to allow more future growth with less effort
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| 15:10 | <vagrantc> warren: agreed. and i think we should keep that in ldminfod
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| 15:10 | <warren> johnny: that's my point exactly
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| 15:12 | <vagrantc> well, nobody's said that in response to ogra's or my post.
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| 15:12 | <warren> johnny: anyhow, both my idea and server telling the client the location of ldminfod require a protocol change of sorts
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| 15:12 | vagrantc: that was part of my original post on the subject
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| 15:12 | johnny: and I rather not change the protocol multiple times
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| 15:13 | johnny: I think we're just going to think of a way to eliminate ldm in the next 6 months in favor of something in gdm.
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| 15:13 | <johnny> well.. that's why i wanted my XSESSION variable in there temporarily.. so i don't have to wait it out or manually patch it
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| 15:13 | i'd prefer my stuff to be on the same level as all other upstream
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| 15:13 | <vagrantc> warren: your original post didn't really address my proposal made in response to your posting.
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| 15:14 | <johnny> so we can figure it out.. but i'll still have something working in the meantime
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| 15:14 | <warren> I dislike the idea of having fallbacks encoded in the client too.
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| 15:14 | <johnny> sure.. but you're relying on it now
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| 15:14 | <warren> Stuff on the client filesystem do not necessarily match the stuff on the server.
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| 15:14 | <vagrantc> agreed, but it's a reasonable default.
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| 15:14 | <warren> I disagree that it is a reasonable default
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| 15:14 | <vagrantc> ok.
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| 15:14 | <warren> You only don't want to change it from the way it was
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| 15:15 | It is a BAD DESIGN for the client to have to decide this particular thing
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| 15:15 | it should have been the server's decision from the start
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| 15:16 | Please understand, I am only speaking technically, I'm not emotionally tied to one way or another.
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| 15:16 | I just think we're better off ldm client picking a standard script path and the server choosing what to do.
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| 15:16 | That way ldm client in the future requires no real changes.
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| 15:16 | while the server could change
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| 15:16 | <vagrantc> well, i agree that it should have been server-side originally. but i also think my proposal prefers the whatever is set server-side, and only has a fallback for when that doesn't work.
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| 15:17 | <warren> "fallback for when that doens't work"
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| 15:17 | given that it runs a command through ssh
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| 15:17 | how does the client reliably know if it failed?
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| 15:17 | <vagrantc> warren: so then define your default at build-time to be that value.
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| 15:17 | warren: i.e. if you want ldm to default to /etc/ltsp/Xsession or whatever, then set it as such.
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| 15:17 | <warren> tftp is a fragile protocol
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| 15:18 | <warren> If lts.conf failed to pull down it might try to do the default defined at build-time that has nothing to do with the current network
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| 15:18 | <vagrantc> i'd prefer to keep it configurable rather than hard-coded.
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| 15:18 | <johnny> i think warren's option is most configurable
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| 15:18 | <warren> vagrantc: I might propose that we rip out the if/else hardcoded locations we have now and instead build-in your own distro's default.
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| 15:19 | <vagrantc> johnny: it's explicitly less configurable.
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| 15:19 | johnny: my proposal includes everything warren proposed with an additional option to configure at build time.
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| 15:19 | warren: did you even read my proposal?
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| 15:19 | <warren> which thread name?
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| 15:20 | <vagrantc> ldm: ConsoleKit and Xsession location
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| 15:20 | posted on the 8th of april
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| 15:21 | <warren> > i dont like #2, it would mean you cant just connect to any ssh server at
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| 15:21 | > > all.
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| 15:21 | i agree with oliver; i don't like #2.
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| 15:21 | <vagrantc> but my proposal doesn't preclude a distro from implementing that option.
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| 15:21 | if you want that for your distro, then make that the default behavior.
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| 15:22 | <warren> I don't mind keeping the LDM_SESSION option
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| 15:22 | however I think it is highly misguided to actually use it
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| 15:22 | then have an rc.d script (or code within ldm after the ssh tunnel is up)
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| 15:22 | that validates the LDM_SESSION values in order, using the first one that
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| 15:22 | is valid.
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| 15:22 | <warren> vagrantc: isn't this a bit fragile?
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| 15:23 | vagrantc: anything that requires running more than one command over the tunnel
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| 15:23 | <vagrantc> warren: we already run several commands over the tunnel
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| 15:23 | <warren> yes, but this is all for the purpose of keeping the current bad design?
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| 15:24 | I'm especially against a way to pass it in ldminfod
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| 15:24 | <vagrantc> i don't see how the design is so infinitely bad.
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| 15:24 | warren: then why did you propose it as an option?
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| 15:24 | warren: kind of lead me on a wild goosechase with that one :P
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| 15:25 | <warren> I only mentioned it, but I said I preferred the other one.
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| 15:25 | OK, the worst possible design is the current one, that looks on the client filesystem for the location.
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| 15:25 | <vagrantc> yes, we couldn't do much worse than that.
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| 15:25 | <warren> Slightly better is your proposed querying the server for a series of fallbacks.
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| 15:26 | It seems like we're willing to accept a great deal more complication in order to avoid something very simple.
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| 15:26 | going back to Oliver's reply
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| 15:26 | <vagrantc> and in your opinion, hard-coding a script path on the server seems like a good option. i don't think you'll get ogra or me to agree with that.
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| 15:26 | <warren> "i dont like #2, it would mean you cant just connect to any ssh server at
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| 15:26 | all. ubuntu and debian offer CK functionallity through sshd (sshd uses
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| 15:26 | CK for evenry X connection made simly to make things like ssh -X
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| 15:26 | user@server time-admin works correctly) ... "
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| 15:27 | The first sentence is mostly inaccurate, while the second part is "We don't need it because we're shipping an ugly patch that upstream wont accept and is violation of the GPL thus I don't see a need to do this."
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| 15:28 | <johnny> the script path can be changed at will tho
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| 15:28 | without updating the client image
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| 15:28 | <vagrantc> johnny: no, warren's proposal is to hard-code it.
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| 15:28 | <warren> vagrantc: because it is FAR simpler and requires a lot less code.
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| 15:28 | The only drawback is that you need to install a tiny shell script or even just a symlink from that location to your actual Xsession.
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| 15:29 | Since we agreed that we need a ldm-server split-out package anyway this isn't so bad.
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| 15:29 | <vagrantc> warren: the accuracy of the first statement, you can't just connect to any ssh server, is absolutely true. it requires a script server-side.
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| 15:29 | <warren> vagrantc: and that is FAR SIMPLER than the proposed client implementation
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| 15:29 | <vagrantc> i agree that ldm-server is a good idea, but i disagree that it should be required.
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| 15:30 | <johnny> warren, did i misunderstand? i thought it was that distros can decide what is supposed to happen without updating the chroot ?
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| 15:30 | and thus could be changed by editing that file
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| 15:30 | <vagrantc> yes, but the client-side path to that file is hard-coded.
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| 15:31 | <warren> vagrantc: that seems like a far saner way to do this than querying the server.
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| 15:31 | <johnny> just as much as /etc/lts.conf is :)
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| 15:31 | or any other required file
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| 15:31 | <warren> vagrantc: here's another issue
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| 15:31 | <johnny> if we had autotools.. it would obviously handle PREFIX
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| 15:31 | <vagrantc> warren: you can tell me it's saner and simpler all day long, but until you introduce new information, i still disagree that it's the only way to do it.
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| 15:32 | <warren> vagrantc: say I do it the way I want, and you do it your way. Our client chroots are now incompatible in connecting to each other's servers.
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| 15:32 | johnny: I'm not following what you're talking about anymore
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| 15:33 | <vagrantc> warren: only if you don't support it from ldminfod (which i guess you don't like, so maybe you wouldn't).
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| 15:33 | <johnny> after what?
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| 15:33 | <vagrantc> johnny: the difference between a hard-coded path to lts.conf is that it's a single environment, the thin-client. we're talking about cross-environment ... server-side and client-side.
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| 15:34 | johnny: a compatible interaction.
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| 15:34 | <warren> vagrantc: do you know how to implement fallback detection of Xsession scripts?
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| 15:34 | <vagrantc> warren: yes ... a simple for loop.
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| 15:34 | <johnny> my fallback isn't even in there :(
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| 15:34 | <warren> I'm especially uncomfortable with the fallback part
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| 15:34 | <johnny> that reminds me..
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| 15:35 | <warren> It is a losing game to hard-code every possible distro location in ldm
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| 15:35 | <vagrantc> absolutely.
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| 15:35 | <warren> vagrantc: perhaps a reasonable compromise is 1) prefer whatever ldminfod tells it 2) use whatever default you built into ldm client
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| 15:35 | no querying
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| 15:36 | <vagrantc> warren: keeps it simpler.
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| 15:36 | <warren> and this requires minimal code changes
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| 15:36 | <vagrantc> warren: i would be ok with that.
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| 15:36 | * vagrantc isn't sure how ogra would feel about it | |
| 15:36 | <warren> querying the server for fallbacks seems like extra lose.
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| 15:36 | * vagrantc still wants LDM_SESSION configurable through lts.conf | |
| 15:37 | <ogra> dont we have LDM_COMMAND for that already ?
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| 15:37 | <warren> ldminfod telling it sucks to me and I might not use it, but I'm not against my ldm following it if the server tells it to.
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| 15:37 | <ogra> i would be ok with one hardcoded default and overriding ldminfod (thats actually what i thought)
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| 15:38 | <vagrantc> ogra: hard-coded, or coded at build-time ?
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| 15:38 | <ogra> build-time is fine
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| 15:38 | <warren> build-time
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| 15:38 | <johnny> ogra!
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| 15:39 | <warren> to be clear, I mean
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| 15:39 | <johnny> look at what wrath you have unleashed ..
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| 15:39 | <warren> 1) If ldminfod told it a Xsession location, use that. 2) Use whatever was hard coded into the client at build-time.
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| 15:39 | <vagrantc> 0) use LDM_SESSION if defined
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| 15:39 | <ogra> would be /etc/X11/Xsession for me anyway ... i prefer to use the alternatives system server sided anyway ... and i suspect admins offering session choice are rather not the mass
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| 15:39 | <warren> vagrantc: that already exists?
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| 15:40 | <vagrantc> warren: yes.
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| 15:40 | i'll have to double-check the variable.
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| 15:40 | <warren> vagrantc: wait, why do we need ldminfod to have this if LDM_SESSION already does?
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| 15:40 | <vagrantc> but the concept exists
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| 15:40 | <ogra> there was LDM_COMMAND as well with the pythin version
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| 15:40 | <vagrantc> warren: because it's client-side
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| 15:40 | <ogra> not sure thats still there
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| 15:40 | <warren> vagrantc: it is exactly the same effect
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| 15:41 | <vagrantc> warren: it's passed via lts.conf or something else.
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| 15:41 | <warren> vagrantc: (both are misguided ways of telling the client what the client thinks it should do)
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| 15:41 | isn't lts.conf passesd by the server as well?
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| 15:41 | <ogra> no
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| 15:41 | <vagrantc> no
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| 15:41 | <warren> huh?
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| 15:41 | you don't download lts.conf during client boot?
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| 15:41 | <ogra> its only parsed from getltscfg
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| 15:42 | <warren> (I thought you did so I added that to my client chroot.)
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| 15:42 | <vagrantc> well, i guess you could say it's passed via the server, then.
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| 15:42 | <ogra> right
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| 15:42 | it comes either from chroot or via tftp
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| 15:42 | * vagrantc still prefers NFS ... | |
| 15:42 | * vagrantc confirms it's LDM_SESSION | |
| 15:42 | <warren> uh...
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| 15:43 | if LDM_SESSION already exists then I really don't see a point to adding it to ldminfod as well.
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| 15:43 | both lts.conf and ldminfod are coming from the server
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| 15:43 | you really don't need two different ways of doing this
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| 15:43 | <vagrantc> lts.conf is coming from the root server, ldminfod could be on your login server.
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| 15:43 | <ogra> LDM_SESSION is filled by ldm with the user choice from teh greeter gui iirc
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| 15:43 | <warren> (and I think we should do neither, but I'm willing to accept keeping the existing one)
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| 15:44 | <vagrantc> warren: then go ahead and put all locale and session information in lts.conf :P
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| 15:44 | <warren> that isn't necessary
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| 15:44 | <ogra> warren, lts.conf can come form a totally different server than your LDM_SERVER
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| 15:44 | <vagrantc> i think there's use cases for all 3.
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| 15:44 | <ogra> its also used for the multi server feature
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| 15:44 | <warren> Th distinction between the 3 are confusing
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| 15:45 | <ogra> (if you have a list of hosts to log in to)
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| 15:45 | <vagrantc> warren: lts.conf comes from the root server. ldminfod should be running on all login servers, which could potentially be different distros.
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| 15:45 | <warren> vagrantc: so, ldm could have multiple ldminfod files in the multi login server case, does it keep track of a different Xsession per server?
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| 15:45 | <ogra> yes
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| 15:45 | (accoding to fgiraldeau and scottie)
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| 15:45 | <vagrantc> well, currently it doesn't, but it would have to.
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| 15:46 | <warren> ogra: vagrantc: and you don't think this couldn't be a LOT simpler with just a standard Xsession location on any valid login server? It is really not so onerous and eliminates a HUGE amount of extra code.
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| 15:46 | <vagrantc> because right now we've just a hard-coded list of if-else
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| 15:46 | <ogra> it queries ldinfod dynamically if your host selection changes
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| 15:47 | <ogra> warren, great, then lets default to /etc/X11/Xsession as we did the last two years :)
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| 15:47 | distros can just add a link :)
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| 15:47 | <vagrantc> pfft.
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| 15:48 | <warren> ogra: I'm thinking how technically sound that could be
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| 15:48 | <vagrantc> warren: no less sound than what you're proposing.
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| 15:48 | * ogra hopes warren got that he was joking | |
| 15:48 | <warren> That actually isn't a bad idea.
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| 15:48 | it is FAR simpler than all we're talking about
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| 15:48 | <vagrantc> the only difference is some distro's would just work, and others would actually require a link.
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| 15:48 | <warren> 3 ways of configuring the same thing is a huge amount of lose.
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| 15:49 | <warren> No, there is a drawback to going back to /etc/X11/Xsession
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| 15:49 | <vagrantc> a link, or a custom script
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| 15:49 | <warren> while it would work for you today, you would lose flexibility
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| 15:49 | I would be able to put my own shell script there and do arbitrary things in the future possibly DIFFERENT from the standard Xsession script.
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| 15:49 | <vagrantc> in case X12 ever happens?
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| 15:49 | <warren> but you wouldn't be able to
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| 15:50 | <johnny> why don't we jsut link in the server?
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| 15:50 | <ogra> i wouldnt want to do things aside from the distro standard ....
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| 15:50 | <johnny> /etc/ltsp/Xsession :)
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| 15:50 | to /etc/X11/whatever
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| 15:50 | <ogra> ... i uld change the standard :)
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| 15:50 | <vagrantc> the debian Xsession scripts are quite flexible.
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| 15:50 | <ogra> johnny, thats unneeded code duplication
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| 15:50 | <johnny> i may not want my ltsp server to behave the same or use the same scripts
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| 15:51 | <ogra> i *want* the debian/ubuntu Xsession script
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| 15:51 | <vagrantc> ok, i've got to make dinner for some guests.
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| 15:51 | <johnny> 1 link is uneeded ?
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| 15:51 | <johnny> ln -s /etc/X11/Xsession to /etc/ltsp/Xsession ?
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| 15:51 | <warren> johnny: Fedora 9's /path/to/Xsession would be a wrapper that uses ck-launch-session then runs our Xsession, not just a link
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| 15:51 | <ogra> so how do i log in to that redhat 4.2 server with the proprietary app that only runs on that old machine ?
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| 15:52 | <johnny> so.. fedora doesnt' do that alredy?
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| 15:52 | <vagrantc> ogra: write /etc/ltsp/Xsession ?
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| 15:52 | <ogra> (the server where i have an ssh account but no write access)
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| 15:52 | ... because its in the other dept.
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| 15:53 | <vagrantc> well, then you're out of luck, because it doesn't use any of the known Xsession locations.
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| 15:53 | <ogra> i want ldm to not lose that functionallity
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| 15:53 | <vagrantc> it never had that functionality.
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| 15:53 | <ogra> iÄm fine with adding all kind of nifty features ...
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| 15:54 | <johnny> ogra, personally i think it will work out.. but right now i have to patch ldm to add my location :(
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| 15:54 | <ogra> vagrantc, i can loh in to any ubuntu machine with sshd i have a pubkey and an IP for
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| 15:54 | <johnny> since it's not in that list
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| 15:54 | <ogra> s/loh/log/
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| 15:54 | <warren> lts.conf LDM_SESSION exists now?
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| 15:54 | <johnny> yes
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| 15:54 | i'm using it right now
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| 15:54 | <vagrantc> ogra: yes, but not a redhat 4.2 system, which has a different path to Xsession.
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| 15:54 | <johnny> since my location is not in that elseif
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| 15:54 | that's the only way i have it working
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| 15:54 | <ogra> vagrantc, right, there i would have to use LDM_COMMAND/SESSION
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| 15:55 | <warren> LDM_SESSION seems to be the redundant one then. ldminfod is the correct way to say "I'm not what you have defined in your build-time Xsession."
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| 15:55 | vagrantc: what the hell is redhat 4.2?
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| 15:55 | =)
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| 15:55 | <vagrantc> but then it would set it globally for that thin-client.
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| 15:55 | <ogra> why dont we just all agree that it needs improvement and be kind and give johnny his elseif for now :)
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| 15:55 | <warren> vagrantc: if we need to go, let's talk about this later.
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| 15:55 | <johnny> thanks ogra..
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| 15:55 | that's the rational thinking i was hoping for :)
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| 15:55 | <ogra> warren, i got the CD upstrais :) and a book it was shipped in :)
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| 15:55 | <warren> ogra: actually I'm not against that, I we seriously need to consider this more
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| 15:55 | <vagrantc> warren: redhat 4.2 is actually the first distro i ever used seriously.
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| 15:56 | <ogra> totally agreed
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| 15:56 | <warren> vagrantc: red hat prior to 6.2 or so had no ssh
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| 15:56 | <ogra> and in two weeks i will actually have time to really think about it :)
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| 15:56 | <johnny> i ran debian in 1997
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| 15:56 | * ogra too | |
| 15:56 | <johnny> until i couldn't get my video to work
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| 15:56 | <warren> there was a time when openssh didn't exist, there was proprietary ssh only
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| 15:56 | <ogra> but 4.2 is from '96 :)
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| 15:56 | <johnny> then i went to win2k after awhile i got my first computer
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| 15:57 | <vagrantc> warren: hmmm... i recall using ssh all over the place ... pre-6.x
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| 15:57 | <johnny> i got debian via "boot magazine"
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| 15:57 | <warren> vagrantc: are you sure it was openssh?
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| 15:57 | <vagrantc> warren: no
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| 15:57 | <johnny> go boot magazine
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| 15:57 | !
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| 15:57 | <vagrantc> warren: but i didn't say it was either
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| 15:58 | <warren> Anyone against just adding a fallback for johnny just for now? We're in disagreement of how to proceed and I really don't want us to hastily decide on a bad plan.
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| 15:58 | <vagrantc> ok, give johnny the elsif, but it's got to be below /etc/X11/Xsession
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| 15:58 | <ogra> warren, ++
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| 15:58 | <vagrantc> we've already been bumped down two filesystem calls.
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| 15:58 | <ogra> bah
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| 15:59 | <johnny> that's fine .. i don't even have /etc/X11/Xsession :)
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| 15:59 | <warren> OK, and we'll add Gentoo last
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| 15:59 | "save the best for last"
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| 15:59 | yeah
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| 15:59 | =)
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| 15:59 | <johnny> beep
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| 15:59 | ok.. patch coming up in a few
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| 15:59 | <warren> johnny: don't bother, just tell me the location, I'll add it now.
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| 16:00 | <vagrantc> be sure to grab a recent ldm-trunk, as i just committed a translation a few minutes ago
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| 16:00 | <warren> vagrantc: k
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| 16:00 | * ogra takes a break ... to cool down his boiling brain | |
| 16:00 | <johnny> well.. now that you're going to.. i have to test one more idea of dberkholz's to make sure i'm picking the right one
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| 16:00 | the one i have now works, but it doesn't do what people expect it hink
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| 16:00 | so.. it'll be 20 min
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| 16:00 | <vagrantc> didn't opensuse also have another location?
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| 16:00 | <warren> vagrantc: I think we already have them
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| 16:01 | <vagrantc> looking at the code, it's just got two.
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| 16:01 | <warren> johnny: wait, this is for gentoo or what?
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| 16:04 | <vagrantc> yup, nobody every applied the patch for opensuse
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| 16:04 | so i guess debian/ubuntu is only down 1 filesystem call :)
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| 16:05 | but may as well apply that one too.
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| 16:05 | <warren> Red Hat 7 was apparently the first time we shipped any ssh
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| 16:05 | <johnny> warren, yes
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| 16:05 | <warren> johnny: what is gentoo's location?
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| 16:06 | <johnny> i have one, but dberkholz suggested a better location, i'm trying to test it now, but i need to fix up my chroot
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| 16:06 | so.. as soon as i do that, i'll let you know , i don't want to make you do it twice
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| 16:06 | <warren> vagrantc: we could fork a background process/thread that finds the location of stuff while other things start, so you don't wait on blocking I/O? =)
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| 16:06 | <dberkholz> johnny: oh, trying the Xsession in /usr/lib now?
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| 16:06 | <johnny> yes
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| 16:06 | <dberkholz> that one actually behaves normally like fedora's
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| 16:06 | <warren> you guys have multiple!/
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| 16:06 | <johnny> dberkholz, yeah.. what is the situation with that?
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| 16:06 | <dberkholz> eh, i need to work something out.
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| 16:07 | i hate doing xdm stuff
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| 16:08 | <vagrantc> how hard would it be to just add a ./configure flag ?
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| 16:09 | <warren> ./configure --xsession-location=/path/to/Xsession?
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| 16:09 | <vagrantc> yeah
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| 16:09 | if it's not that difficult, why not just do it now?
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| 16:09 | <warren> Do you agree to rip out all hardcoded locations then?
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| 16:09 | <johnny> my autofoo is weak
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| 16:10 | <vagrantc> warren: well, that's basically what i'm getting at.
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| 16:10 | <johnny> so it would be harder for me :)
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| 16:10 | if you do that.. go ahead :)
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| 16:10 | <warren> although
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| 16:10 | it would be rather broken for ./configure to fail without a parameter
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| 16:10 | so maybe we should have auto-detection
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| 16:10 | OTOH buildroot != server
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| 16:11 | <vagrantc> right.
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| 16:11 | <johnny> how can it detect what's on the server?
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| 16:11 | <warren> but then we have the option coming from ldminfod
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| 16:11 | <johnny> i don't think configure should autodetect based on a network service tho..
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| 16:11 | <warren> johnny: only with clumsy and high latency "oops, that didn't work, let's try another"
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| 16:11 | <johnny> that'd be kinda weird
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| 16:12 | <vagrantc> warren: how about without parameter, ./configure defaults to using /etc/ltsp/Xsession
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| 16:12 | <johnny> aha.. sanity returns :)
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| 16:12 | <warren> ogra might have actually won me over with his bogus "proprietary app on redhat 4.2" argument
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| 16:12 | <vagrantc> it's a distro-agnostic default, but doesn't require a given distro to use it.
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| 16:12 | <johnny> lol...
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| 16:12 | <warren> even though red hat 4.2 didn't have ssh
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| 16:13 | <johnny> ogra is crazy yo..
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| 16:13 | nc ftw
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| 16:13 | <vagrantc> but we don't support that anyways, because the current autodetection happens on the client.
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| 16:13 | <ogra> yeah, i'm known to make up weird cornercase examples :)
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| 16:13 | <vagrantc> that's a feature request.
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| 16:13 | <warren> throw in a few buzzwords and convince venture capitalists
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| 16:13 | <ogra> hehe
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| 16:13 | <johnny> it's been ogracised
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| 16:13 | <warren> haha
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| 16:14 | OK, I still think we should just add the client-side filesystem fallbacks for now
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| 16:14 | after Debian's location of course
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| 16:14 | We need to fully think this through
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| 16:14 | <johnny> brb
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| 16:14 | <vagrantc> i guess if it's not easy to add a configure option, then i guess that's the only thing to do.
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| 16:14 | <warren> OTOH, it sounds like dberkholz and johnny aren't even sure which they want
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| 16:15 | vagrantc: none of us are good at autofoo
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| 16:15 | <vagrantc> but it seems like if we're basically hard-coding the values, we need to figure out a way to hard-code them once.
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| 16:15 | <joel_> Can I bother one of you for some answers on the ltsp system?
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| 16:15 | <vagrantc> AHA!
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| 16:15 | set distro default in ltsp_config ?
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| 16:15 | <dberkholz> i don't completely suck at autofoo
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| 16:15 | <warren> vagrantc: so you can change it during runtime
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| 16:16 | err
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| 16:16 | without a rebuild I mean
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| 16:16 | <vagrantc> nah, that doesn't work...
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| 16:16 | just set LDM_SESSION in lts.conf for everyone and be done with it.
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| 16:16 | :)
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| 16:16 | i've got to make dinner for some guests.
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| 16:16 | <warren> I'm thinking LDM_SESSION should be continued to be supported (because it is bad to remove options)
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| 16:16 | but
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| 16:16 | we should deprecate it
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| 16:16 | because ldminfod is the correct way
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| 16:17 | especially with multiple login servers
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| 16:17 | <vagrantc> no deprecation of a useful pfeature.
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| 16:17 | <warren> It might not be useful when ldminfod can do it
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| 16:17 | you really don't want to confuse users by having both widely promoted
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| 16:17 | <vagrantc> you might want a single terminal to use a different session than the others.
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| 16:17 | <warren> argh
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| 16:18 | ok go, we'll talk later.
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| 16:18 | <ogra> thats what lts.conf is for :)
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| 16:18 | <vagrantc> exactly!
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| 16:18 | so don't deprecate it.
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| 16:18 | it's one line of code in ldm.c ... it's not hard to keep.
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| 16:18 | <warren> ldminfod is only saying "if you login to me then you better use foople or it will not work"
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| 16:19 | <vagrantc> no, it's saying "if you haven't been told to use, this is what you should use".
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| 16:19 | <ogra> ldminfod is optional atm
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| 16:19 | <joel_> On the LTSP system, I finally got a PXE boot to happen, but it only goes to a "busybox" prompt.
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| 16:19 | <warren> lts.conf is for telling one client to do something possibly different from another client
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| 16:19 | <ogra> it wont be used if you dont select a session
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| 16:19 | <vagrantc> the session seleciton should still use LDM_SESSION ... at least on debian and ubuntu.
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| 16:20 | <warren> it sounds like we need to step back and think about exactly what are all the ldm requirements
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| 16:20 | <vagrantc> agreed.
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| 16:20 | <ogra> right
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| 16:20 | we started that n seville
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| 16:20 | <warren> too many different things we're talking about here
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| 16:20 | <ogra> but during the cnversation more and more wierd requirements came up
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| 16:20 | <vagrantc> so i guess the first thing is to get it working for opensuse and gentoo in the sub-optimal way.
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| 16:20 | <ogra> francis ah lots and lots of extra reqs for millexterm
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| 16:21 | s/ah/has/
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| 16:21 | <dberkholz> yay suboptimal!
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| 16:21 | <warren> We need a picture of all requirements, then DELINEATE what everyone wants and do it in phases. If you aim too broadly it wont get done.
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| 16:21 | <vagrantc> dberkholz: unless you can use your autofoo powers for the cause.
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| 16:22 | slipttees is now known as slipttees_Disapp | |
| 16:22 | <warren> vagrantc: we need to know exactly what we want first
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| 16:22 | <vagrantc> warren: true enough.
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| 16:22 | <ogra> warren, well, all that was only with focus on debian and ubuntu back then ... and we didnt get it right yet
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| 16:22 | <warren> I'm going to make a series of posts each with its own focused topic
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| 16:22 | slipttees_Disapp is now known as slip_Disappointe | |
| 16:22 | <warren> so we don't get bogged down with many topics in the same thread
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| 16:22 | <ogra> warren, expect the unexpected from francis :)
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| 16:22 | he has really weird usecases ...
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| 16:23 | but hue deployments ...
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| 16:23 | *huge
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| 16:23 | <warren> Francis liked my proposal of an upstream Xsession location
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| 16:23 | <ogra> well, he's canadian ...
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| 16:23 | * ogra hides | |
| 16:25 | <ogra> hmm, canada jokes are somehow not the same wihout scottie around ...
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| 16:25 | <warren> ogra: why don't people make fun of Americans?
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| 16:26 | ogra: we're so foolish now
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| 16:26 | <vagrantc> warren: maybe they just don't do it in your company ...
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| 16:26 | <warren> haha
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| 16:26 | <ogra> warren, well ... thats rather bitter than funny
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| 16:27 | slip_Disappointe is now known as DeviL_H4ck3r | |
| 16:27 | * vagrantc just spent two days in intense meetings in toronto | |
| 16:28 | <ogra> you travel a lot recently
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| 16:29 | <vagrantc> yes, march and april has been an insanely vagrant couple months.
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| 16:29 | i intend to stick in one place from may till the end of july.
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| 16:54 | <bricode> Some Canadians leave the country until it's less cold...
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| 16:54 | For those of you that use Geode systems, I just finished testing a patch from Jordan Crouse...it allows libDDC calls without using the BIOS.
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| 16:56 | LTSP testing to commence in a few minutes.
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| 18:46 | <beakburke> anyone in here testing LTSP on fedora 9?
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| 18:49 | joebaker has left #ltsp | |
| 18:50 | <beakburke> ls
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| 19:16 | <dberkholz> beakburke: pretty sure warren is =)
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| 19:17 | <beakburke> he awol from chat right now??
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| 19:18 | <dberkholz> 00:18 [freenode] -!- idle : 0 days 1 hours 36 mins 59 secs
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| 19:19 | <beakburke> most likely then. Is warren warrent T?
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| 19:19 | Looks like he is
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| 20:05 | <warren> vagrantc: ogra: does your ltsp-setup start jetpipe on all clients even if you don't want it?
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| 20:05 | or need it
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| 20:05 | vagrantc: ogra: what exactly does jetpipe do anyway?
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| 20:05 | I mean concretely
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| 21:13 | <vagrantc> warren: i haven't used jetpipe, but basically it emulates a hp jetdirect port... kind of a semi-raw protocol for printers...
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| 21:14 | warren: takes data in on port 9100 and spits it out to the paralell and/or usb port
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| 21:14 | warren: other implementations are p910nd and lp_server.
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| 21:48 | <ryudo> vagrantc
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| 21:48 | <ryudo> good night :)
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| 21:49 | do know the ltsp (hardy heron) have suport for un-partioned memory stickys ?
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| 21:55 | vagrantc ???
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| 22:31 | <vagrantc> ryudo: probably not
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| 22:32 | <ryudo> in 4.2 thix fix exist but, why not in ltsp 5 ? :(
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| 22:35 | <vagrantc> because we are not perfect.
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| 22:36 | make a good bug report, ideally with how to fix it, and it's much more likely to work.
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| 22:47 | <warren> sounds like jetpipe belongs in its own package.
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