IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 16 May 2016 (all times are UTC)
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| 07:15 | <Ghostdog> Hi, am thinking of using LTSP to setup a server/thin client service at the community centre. We have old desktops and was thinking of buying a powerful desktop (i5, 16gbytes memory) to use as the server.. Will i need to install Ubuntu server software first before loading LTSP server software?
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| 07:15 | <alkisg> Hi Ghostdog
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| 07:15 | <Ghostdog> hello
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| 07:15 | <alkisg> Tell us details about the clients
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| 07:16 | How many, how much ram, what cpu
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| 07:17 | <Ghostdog> around 15 destops, currently running xp software. RAM around 1 to 2 Gbytes, CPU Penitum 4
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| 07:18 | <alkisg> Hmm pentium 4's are in the middle of the cpu/ram required for running them as thin or as fat clients, which makes a lot of difference, so I'd better ask more details,
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| 07:18 | pentium 4's with 2 gb ram are very very rare, are you sure about those specs?
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| 07:19 | And, do you know their exact CPU, in MHz?
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| 07:19 | Because e.g. a pentium 4 at 3 GHz with 1.5 gb ram would be a fine fat client
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| 07:20 | While a pentium 4 at 1.7 GHz with 512 RAM would be better as a thin client
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| 07:20 | (both thin and fat clients in ltsp are diskeless, netbooted)
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| 07:20 | <Ghostdog> yes, but they are old desktops which I want to use as thin clients. Basically rebuilt as Ubuntu thin client desktops
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| 07:21 | <Ghostdog> but i think they are 500mbyes to 1 gbytes of RAM on ther desktops
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| 07:23 | <alkisg> Ghostdog: anyway, try this:
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| 07:23 | !ltsp-pnp
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| 07:23 | <ltsp> ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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| 07:23 | <alkisg> And you may play with the LTSP_FATCLIENT=True/False directive if you need it
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| 07:23 | !ubuntu-mate
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| 07:23 | <ltsp> ubuntu-mate: Ubuntu-mate works very well with LTSP, even with older clients. Download the 64-bit version if *all* your clients have >= 2GB RAM, otherwise download the 32-bit version. http://ubuntu-mate.org/download/
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| 07:23 | <alkisg> Start with the mate-i386-desktop iso
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| 07:24 | <Ghostdog> yes, i will start with the i386 desktop first
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| 07:25 | Will I need to load a ubuntu OS first before installing i386-desktop?
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| 07:25 | <alkisg> No
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| 07:25 | That is the os you need, the ubuntu-mate-i386-desktop.iso
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| 07:25 | <Ghostdog> ok, thanks
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| 07:26 | and the server software? I will be buying a powerful sdesktop, i5, 16Gbytes of RAM, 64 bit.
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| 07:38 | <alkisg> Ghostdog: you install the server with that iso
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| 07:38 | You don't need another installation, you only do one installation and it's enough for both the server and all the clients
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| 07:39 | Note that if your clients are pentium 4 at 3 GHz, you should be a very cheap server, and some ram for your clients so that they work as fat clients instead
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| 07:40 | So, if you have a test server now (any recent pc will do, even if it's 5 years old), try it before buying
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| 07:44 | <Ghostdog> ok will do. Thanks for the advise. If I have any problems will I will come to this chat for advise.
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| 12:24 | <clueo8> Hey, anybody out there?
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| 15:35 | <tsylvermane> Server = Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - having tons of trouble with lockups and freezing in my clients typically with email apps, evolution and thunderbird. Everything is on a gigabit network. Looking for advice.
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| 15:42 | <alkisg> tsylvermane: thin or fat clients? how much client ram?
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| 15:43 | <tsylvermane> thin clients. just testing right now, my laptop as a client has 8 gigs of ram
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| 15:43 | <||cw> how much server ram? disk IO contention maybe?
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| 15:44 | <tsylvermane> have the ltsp images and files on the ssd, 8 gigs of ram on server.
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| 15:44 | <alkisg> Complete freezing in like you have to reboot after that, or just 1-2 sec freezing and then it comes back?
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| 15:44 | <tsylvermane> total freeze. mouse still moves about but can't do anything until hard reboot of client.
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| 15:44 | <alkisg> Is your laptop nvidia-based?
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| 15:45 | <tsylvermane> no, just a simple intel i7 with integrated
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| 15:45 | <alkisg> It doesn't have that optimus stuff, dual integrated / nvidia, right?
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| 15:45 | <tsylvermane> no
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| 15:46 | <alkisg> With those specs, it sounds like driver related, can you try with 16.04 to see if that kernel is more stable for you?
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| 15:46 | !ltsp-pnp
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| 15:46 | <ltsp> ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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| 15:46 | <alkisg> And this will allow you to see how it works as a diskless *fat* client instead
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| 15:46 | Which is much faster
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| 15:47 | Clients with >= 1 GB RAM in most cases should be ran as fat clients, not thin (both are netbooted)
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| 15:47 | <tsylvermane> i understand but my goal is to run with smaller thin clients. the laptop is only for testing right now before i deploy fully around my house
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| 15:48 | i can try 16.04 in a vm on the server i guess
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| 15:50 | <alkisg> If you have other clients that you can boot with 14.04, you can test with them
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| 15:50 | In general, kernels sometimes have issues with newer hardware, and then newer kernels solve those issues
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| 15:50 | <tsylvermane> ill try it
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| 15:51 | the host has to stay 14.04 for now but i'll spin up a 16.04 vm and run from that.
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| 15:53 | <alkisg> "my goal is to run with smaller thin clients." ==> I meant, if you already have one of them, test with that one instead of testing with the laptop
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| 15:53 | <tsylvermane> right i got it
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| 15:53 | i was thinking those low power diskless things
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| 15:54 | or custom built for hdmi output, not sure yet. either way diskless and as low power as possible
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| 15:57 | <alkisg> !flash
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| 15:57 | <ltsp> flash: Yes, flash sucks. An HD full screen 30 fps video needs 2.5 Gbps bandwidth (1920×1080×4×30)! Make sure you have LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file, or if it's just youtube you're after, try some flash replacing plugin like http://linterna-magica.nongnu.org
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| 15:57 | <alkisg> Flash is just an example, even window scrolling needs a *lot* of bandwidth
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| 15:58 | If you're buying new hardware, it's best to aim for clients that can run the OS locally
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| 15:58 | (local cpu, not local disk...)
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| 15:59 | <tsylvermane> it isn't practical to run it all on the server anymore?
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| 16:01 | <alkisg> It depends on if you want stuff like web browsing etc or not
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| 16:02 | If you're just looking for word processing, the graphics lan bandwidth is low, and it's very usable
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| 16:03 | If you're looking for web browsing, presentations (impress) etc, making the screen go over lan isn't very good, it's best to make the disk data go over the disk instead
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| 16:03 | *over the net, sorry
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| 16:11 | <tsylvermane> oh..
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| 16:12 | i guess i was expecting more than its capable of
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| 16:13 | was looking for simple management with highly cost effective expansion for general day to day usage. no gaming i knew but if it chokes on other day to day things then im in the wrong boat : /
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| 16:13 | <alkisg> The only thing that changes is your client specs
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| 16:13 | <tsylvermane> ill give 16.04 a try before i give it up completely i guess.
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| 16:13 | <alkisg> I.e. you buy a diskless client with 100 euros instead of one with 80 euros
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| 16:14 | The rest is the same, you only maintain one pc
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| 16:14 | LTSP is about maintaining any number of diskless clients with one installation only
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| 16:14 | <tsylvermane> should i try doing the ltsp-pnp then instead of just standard? at the moment im only installing from the ltsp-server-standalone package in the Ubuntu repos. they don't have anything for ltsp-pnp
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| 16:15 | <alkisg> If you'll be sending the screen data over the network, or the disk data, is a small difference in architecture
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| 16:15 | ltsp-pnp supports both thin and fat clients out of the box
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| 16:15 | <||cw> P4 small form factor with 1GB+ ram are still < $50 and make quite good fat clients
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| 16:15 | <alkisg> And it's easier to set up
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| 16:15 | <tsylvermane> do they boot off the network the same way?
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| 16:15 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 16:15 | <tsylvermane> it just sends the image over the netwrok to the disk, then runs from the disk basically?
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| 16:16 | <alkisg> It doesn't send the whole disk, only the "sectors" that the client needs
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| 16:16 | It's like booting from a usb disk, it doesn't get loaded in ram, only sectors get read
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| 16:16 | <||cw> yeah, still no HDD. only difference is they run everything local. same concept as thin clients with localapps, except everything is local by default
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| 16:19 | <tsylvermane> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients is what im reading now, think this is what you are talking about.
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| 16:19 | <alkisg> tsylvermane: that's an older page i wrote
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| 16:20 | ltsp-pnp is the newer page
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| 16:20 | But yeah the theory is in the fatclients page, ok
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| 16:20 | <tsylvermane> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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| 16:21 | for 14.04 do i need the ppa or can i do this from the stock repos?
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| 16:21 | <alkisg> It's best to use our ppa, yes
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| 16:21 | It contains fixes for all the bugs that we have solved
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| 16:21 | <tsylvermane> and theres your name in the installation section.
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| 16:21 | ok
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| 16:21 | <alkisg> (I'm an ltsp developer btw)
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| 16:21 | <tsylvermane> i see that. appreciate the help
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| 16:21 | <alkisg> So we don't have to bother with new users complaining about bugs that are already fixed...
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| 16:22 | <tsylvermane> right
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| 16:24 | <tsylvermane> no chroot this way, everything is installed directly on the server?
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| 16:25 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 16:25 | You can use a chroot if you prefer, but it's usually better to manage the apps graphically, in a real desktop...
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| 16:26 | <tsylvermane> dont want to use one. truth be told i don't entirely understand what to do wiht a chroot beyond what the ltsp instructions were telling me
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| 16:26 | however it will be done over ssh as the server is also my htpc direct booting to kodi
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| 16:41 | <alkisg> tsylvermane: you can use a vm if you prefer
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| 16:41 | does your server also have a desktop environment installed?
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| 16:41 | <tsylvermane> gonna do it in a kvm vm
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| 16:41 | it direct boots to Kodi
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| 16:41 | so not a workable de no
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| 16:43 | i'll run the virtual machine on the ssd. is a gui really a requirement?
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| 16:44 | <alkisg> You don't need a gui on the clients?
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| 16:44 | <tsylvermane> i do need a gui on the clients but i dont need an accessible one on the server do i?
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| 16:44 | <alkisg> Then use your existing chroot
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| 16:44 | <tsylvermane> ok
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| 16:44 | <alkisg> Run:
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| 16:44 | sudo ltsp-chroot
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| 16:45 | apt-get install gnome-flashback
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| 16:45 | ...or whatever else you want,
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| 16:45 | ubuntu-desktop, whatever
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| 16:45 | <alkisg> then exit, ltsp-update-image, done
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| 16:45 | No need for ltsp-pnp if you don't want a gui on the server
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| 16:46 | <tsylvermane> if i use my existing chroot though then im back to where i started with freezing and locking up apps?
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| 16:47 | ok perhaps the better question.
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| 16:47 | how do i setup a fat client with the chroot method?
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| 16:47 | nevermind i see it now
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| 16:48 | <alkisg> For the first question, it depends; you'd have to try to see if it solves it or not
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| 16:48 | For the second question, you don't need a different method, just install ubuntu-desktop in the chroot
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| 16:51 | <tsylvermane> this may be a dumb question.
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| 16:51 | <gehidore> only if you never ask it
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| 16:51 | <tsylvermane> my lts.conf previously just had my cups server as well as a few fstab lines for nfs shares. was i already running a fat client?
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| 16:53 | <alkisg> Fat clients need a desktop environment in a chroot
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| 16:53 | ls /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/xsessions
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| 16:53 | <tsylvermane> thats what i had
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| 16:53 | <alkisg> If you have .desktop files there, it's fat
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| 16:53 | <tsylvermane> ok so i was running a fat client and still getting the lockups i guess
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| 16:54 | <alkisg> NFS shares can also cause lockups
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| 16:54 | What are you using them for? Why not the default sshfs?
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| 16:55 | <tsylvermane> i wasnt sure of any other way to mount my desired home folder from the server into the clients
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| 16:56 | <alkisg> It should be already mounted even without the fstab lines
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| 16:56 | So, try removing those and see if it helps
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| 16:56 | <tsylvermane> yes but it uses the servers /home which im trying to avoid
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| 16:57 | how can i direct it to somewhere else?
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| 16:57 | <alkisg> Set the user home to somewhere else
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| 16:58 | Or if you want an *additional* mount, use LOCALAPPS_EXTRA_MOUNTS
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| 16:58 | <tsylvermane> all in the lts.conf?
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| 17:00 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 17:04 | <tsylvermane> ok
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| 17:09 | my client is rebuilding itself. im assuming that using LOCAL_APPS_EXTRAMOUNTS=/spinner/ltsphome will simply put that location in my / of the client image?
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| 17:09 | <||cw> for nfs, are you using async? that fixes most performance issues, but if the server has an unclean shutdown for any reason you can lose data
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| 17:10 | also, lts.conf changes alone don't need an image rebuilt
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| 17:11 | <tsylvermane> i get that. im rebuilding because i had removed ltsp the other day and was looking for answers before trying again
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| 17:11 | lts.conf is outside of the chroot
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| 18:24 | <tsylvermane> if i may, what is the proper syntax for LOCAL_APPS_EXTRAMOUNTS?
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| 20:22 | <alkisg> !lts.conf | echo tsylvermane:
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| 20:22 | <ltsp> tsylvermane: lts.conf: (#1) http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf, or (#2) lts.conf manpage is available in the ltsp-docs package
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