IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 16 October 2015 (all times are UTC)
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| 09:05 | <alkisg> gbaman: ping?
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| 09:36 | <fnurl> a ping with no pong is a lonely ping
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| 09:36 | lost in the etherness
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| 09:37 | * alkisg is thinking of putting uboot in rpi2, so that it never needs kernel updates, never writes to the sd card | |
| 09:38 | <fnurl> i'm liking that idea
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| 10:41 | <alkisg> fnurl: are you putting anything special to boot the rpi2 with the HDMI=>VGA adapter?
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| 10:41 | I got it working with an HDMI cable, but not with the adapter... any changes in config.txt?
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| 10:55 | <alkisg> I can see it with epoptes and it has 640x480, but it doesn't power up any of my monitors here...
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| 11:27 | <gbaman> work_alkisg: You looking me?
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| 12:00 | work_alkisg is now known as alkisg | |
| 12:00 | <alkisg> gbaman: I was thinking to put u-boot in rpi2, so that it doesn't need kernel updates in the sd card
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| 12:00 | What do you think?
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| 12:01 | <gbaman> Last I tried that, the u-boot support for the Pi was very limited
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| 12:01 | And buggy to say the least
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| 12:01 | <alkisg> When was that?
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| 12:01 | <gbaman> About 6 months ago
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| 12:01 | <alkisg> rpi or rpi2?
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| 12:01 | <gbaman> Pi 1 as there was 0 support for Pi2 at the time
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| 12:02 | <alkisg> I saw a lot of commits in April for rpi2, and I think they made it in main u-boot
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| 12:02 | <gbaman> To even consider moving to u-boot, it would need to have full support for Pi1 and Pi2
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| 12:02 | * alkisg is talking about upstream ltsp.. | |
| 12:03 | <alkisg> If it loads the kernel, isn't that enough?
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| 12:03 | (via tftp)
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| 12:03 | <gbaman> As it stands, the current system actually works quite nicely given the boot files are only updated every ~6 months so they rarely need updated anyway and PiNet includes a script to auto update the cards anyway
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| 12:03 | <alkisg> Or does it need to initialize other subsystems before the kernel teakes over?
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| 12:03 | <gbaman> It has a boot "blob" that runs before the kernel
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| 12:04 | Then loads the kernel and initramfs
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| 12:04 | <alkisg> That would run before uboot I guess, so it would be ok
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| 12:04 | <gbaman> Yeah
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| 12:04 | <alkisg> About the auto-updating, when/where is your script ran?
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| 12:04 | By init-ltsp.d?
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| 12:04 | <gbaman> In the OS bit
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| 12:04 | It then reboots the Pi if there is a change
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| 12:05 | One of the startup scripts
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| 12:05 | <alkisg> startup as in /etc/init.d?
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| 12:05 | <gbaman> Yip
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| 12:05 | <alkisg> (or systemd...)
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| 12:05 | <gbaman> Is a bit of an ugly hack, but works quite nicely
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| 12:05 | <alkisg> AFAIK init-ltsp.d would be the proper place for it, and upstream in ltsp
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| 12:05 | <gbaman> https://github.com/PiNet/PiNet/blob/master/Scripts/kernelCheckUpdate.sh
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| 12:06 | That is true
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| 12:06 | As can be seen, a very ugly hack :)
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| 12:06 | <alkisg> Where are the new files, in the squashfs image?
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| 12:06 | <gbaman> Yeah
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| 12:07 | in /bootfiles on the main image
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| 12:08 | Having the stuff on the card also makes boot a decent bit faster
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| 12:08 | <alkisg> gbaman: about speed, have... yeah that
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| 12:08 | Did you try squashfs locally?
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| 12:08 | <gbaman> When I was testing with u-boot, was added 10+ seconds on
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| 12:08 | <alkisg> It should give even more speed... i.e. to dump the nbd image inside a partition
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| 12:08 | <gbaman> What do you mean?
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| 12:09 | <alkisg> Not the contents, but in the original squashfs format
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| 12:09 | <gbaman> As in write it to the card?
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| 12:09 | <alkisg> I.e. the first partition of the card would be fat32, and the second would be the squashfs image
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| 12:09 | Yes
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| 12:09 | That should make it 2.5 times faster than writing it as ext3...
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| 12:09 | <gbaman> Na, trying to avoid writing to the cards
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| 12:09 | <alkisg> That would be read only
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| 12:10 | squashfs is always read-only
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| 12:10 | <gbaman> How do you decide when it needs updated on the cards?
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| 12:10 | <alkisg> The same way as you do with the kernel etc
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| 12:10 | <gbaman> You then also have to copy the full new image over onto the card
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| 12:11 | <alkisg> Right. Depending on the use case, that might help a lot.
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| 12:12 | <gbaman> Booting it all but the initial boot files off the server (using NBD and SquashFS) works quite nicely
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| 12:12 | Pi2 is at login screen in ~30 seconds
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| 12:12 | <alkisg> How many clients per server?
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| 12:12 | E.g. if you had 100, it wouldn't be so...
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| 12:12 | <gbaman> I run the NI Jams every month with 35 Pis without any issue
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| 12:12 | And most schools that is all they will have
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| 12:12 | <alkisg> Or if you had 100 mbps network on the server side
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| 12:13 | (many schools have that, here)
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| 12:13 | <gbaman> We tell people they can't use 100mbit/s network cards/hardware with PiNet :)
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| 12:13 | <alkisg> An ltsp client booting needs about 50 MB, so 20 clients is 1 GB
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| 12:13 | <gbaman> But, the Pis are slow so they won't need it all at once
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| 12:13 | <alkisg> With gigabit networking, that's about 10 seconds, with 100 mbps it's like 100 seconds
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| 12:14 | <gbaman> And max out anyway at pulling about 50mbit/s usually anyway
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| 12:14 | <alkisg> Same while opening libreoffice (needs 120 MB) etc
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| 12:14 | <gbaman> Libreoffice is a good example actually
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| 12:14 | <alkisg> Are the users able to watch fullscreen youtube?
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| 12:14 | <gbaman> It isn't the network speed that is the limiting factor using for libreoffice, it is the pi just being slow
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| 12:14 | Yip
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| 12:15 | Using Epiphany browser
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| 12:15 | <alkisg> On 100 mbps networks, it is, having 2 GB travel over the network...
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| 12:15 | <gbaman> The hardware accelerated one
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| 12:15 | I have no idea
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| 12:15 | <alkisg> The stock one from raspbian?
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| 12:15 | <gbaman> As previously mentioned, we don't recommend 100mbit/s networks
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| 12:15 | Yip
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| 12:15 | <alkisg> Strange, here it's only showing <10 fps while full screen
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| 12:16 | It's ok when ran no-full screen
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| 12:16 | <gbaman> With a Pi 2?
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| 12:16 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 12:16 | <gbaman> I have easily been able to play youtube videos at a decent framerate on the pi?
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| 12:16 | <alkisg> What about vlc? Are you using the hw accelerated version? Or the other player that starts from o* and I don't remember its name?
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| 12:16 | <gbaman> Vimeo videos I believe are a tad more optimised too
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| 12:16 | Omxplayer is the hardware accelerated one
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| 12:16 | VLC isn't
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| 12:17 | On the Pi anyway
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| 12:17 | <alkisg> There are patches for vlc
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| 12:17 | So, the users can't e.g. jump to a specific point, or view subtitles... with omxplayer...
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| 12:17 | <gbaman> Of course, it has to be remembered that the Pi Foundation has a very small engineering team
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| 12:17 | ~15-20 for hardware and software
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| 12:17 | <alkisg> Would you say that the schools are satisfied with that solution? As compared e.g. to a normal ltsp installation?
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| 12:18 | <gbaman> Schools very rarely use them for watching videos
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| 12:18 | <alkisg> Ah, only for programming?
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| 12:18 | <gbaman> Remember the Pi is targeted at coding in schools
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| 12:18 | Yeah
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| 12:18 | <alkisg> Some schools here were asking if they could build normal computer labs with rpi2
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| 12:18 | <gbaman> I do have the odd school though that has setup desktop shortcuts for ltsp-remoteapps firefox :)
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| 12:18 | <alkisg> ...and I was going to say no, but I wanted a second opinion... :)
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| 12:19 | <gbaman> And have a powerful machine running the server
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| 12:19 | <alkisg> Sure, for thin clients they'd be fine
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| 12:19 | <gbaman> Well, it very much depends what you class as normal
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| 12:19 | Well, that allows them to mix it
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| 12:19 | So they still have full access to the local hardware on the Pi for most stuff
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| 12:19 | Then if they need it, can use a full fat browser
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| 12:20 | <alkisg> Unfortunately we don't have any PI-specific classes here for the time being
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| 12:20 | <gbaman> They are getting very popular here in the UK
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| 12:21 | <alkisg> I imagine that pi being developed there would help...
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| 12:21 | <gbaman> The next version of PiNet will include anonymous metrics, so will be interesting to see how many people are actually using it on a day to day basis
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| 12:21 | Will include the number of users on the system
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| 12:21 | <alkisg> Ah, I was surfing the other day and I saw some persons in the forums saying "ltsp is dead, pinet replaced it"
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| 12:21 | <gbaman> Hahaha
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| 12:22 | <alkisg> Maybe you could clear it up that pinet is based on ltsp...
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| 12:22 | <gbaman> It is on the site in quite a few places..
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| 12:22 | Although people have a habit of not reading...
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| 12:22 | (something I have certainly noticed from the support emails...(
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| 12:22 | )
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| 12:22 | <alkisg> Did you try out any of the latest ltsp versions?
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| 12:23 | I had numerous fixes for systemd, desktop session etc...
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| 12:23 | <gbaman> No?
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| 12:23 | Assuming it isn't in the Ubuntu repos yet?
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| 12:23 | <alkisg> LTSP in Ubuntu is quite broken
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| 12:23 | But I thought that you were using the debian repos
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| 12:24 | (the client side is what matters most)
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| 12:24 | <gbaman> Nope, Ubuntu repos?
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| 12:24 | <alkisg> You're using an ubuntu chroot?
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| 12:24 | Not a debian one?
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| 12:24 | with raspbian etc?
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| 12:24 | <gbaman> PiNet prefixes the ltsp-build-client with VENDOR=Debian
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| 12:25 | <alkisg> And your sources point to raspbian?
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| 12:25 | <gbaman> Yip
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| 12:25 | <alkisg> So you do have a debian chroot, not a broken ubuntu one
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| 12:25 | OK
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| 12:25 | <gbaman> Cool
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| 12:25 | Will in the next month be moving to Raspbian Jessie
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| 12:25 | <alkisg> I tried it already, it worked fine for me
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| 12:26 | <gbaman> Anything new in that for LTSP?
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| 12:26 | <alkisg> A new release has made it to stretch, vagrantc will probably backport it to jessie....
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| 12:26 | It defaults to NBD now
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| 12:26 | <gbaman> Already using that anyway
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| 12:26 | <alkisg> So, I'll be committing some pi-related stuff upstream in LTSP, keep an eye in case something affects pinet
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| 12:27 | E.g. what things go in tftp, new ltsp-config stuff...
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| 12:27 | <gbaman> As in, stuff that will break PiNet?
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| 12:28 | <alkisg> I don't believe so.... it would just make things easier
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| 12:28 | E.g. tools in upstream ltsp to write the sd cards etc
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| 12:29 | Thanks for the chat gbaman, keep up the good work.
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| 12:30 | <gbaman> Cool
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| 13:30 | * bennabiy waves | |
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| 16:31 | <lbssousa> Phantomas, I've just answered you in https://bugs.launchpad.net/epoptes/+bug/1504547
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| 16:57 | <thedarkener> PiNet looks kinda cool =} Wondering how it would just stack up against stock LTSP though
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| 17:01 | <||cw> thedarkener: far as I know, it is LTSP. the thing with Pis is that they don't PXE, so there's an image on them to netboot, and pinet manages that
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| 17:15 | <thedarkener> ||cw: couldn't they just distribute the SD card image directly and not have the whole installation process? Or does it install all of the LTSP bits as well automatically?
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| 17:18 | <work_alkisg> ltsp-server, ldm-server, ltspfs etc are required server-side
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| 17:18 | <work_alkisg> And a method to update the chroot contents is necessary as well, i.e. ltsp-chroot
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| 17:27 | <||cw> thedarkener: they could, but the target is schools and teachers, and they tend to prefer things be all-in-one.
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| 17:27 | the underlying tools are still the tools LTSP uses though, so it's effectively the same
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| 19:53 | <Tex> question: still can't find where a failed print job for a user is getting flagged after moving to a new server setup. It shows at 'printer out of paper' on an old queue after cutting over to a new server.
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| 19:53 | do these jobs get annotated somewhere in the user directory in addition to the actual print queue?
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| 20:24 | <bennabiy> Tex: what distro?
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| 20:25 | <Tex> Ubuntu 14.04 (moved from 10.04 if that has any impact)
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| 22:43 | <sbalneav> Afternoon all
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| 22:43 | At the LTSP BTS conference.
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| 22:47 | <djohnsto1> sbalneav: Hello, Scotty.
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| 22:49 | <sbalneav> Hey djohnsto1!
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| 22:50 | https://code.launchpad.net/ltsp
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| 23:46 | <MiKrO_> hi
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| 23:49 | a question, I have a running server with 24GB of RAM and 6-core Xeon. It is normal for a network with 12 computers from a couple of teams see the slow video sessions become even freeze?
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