IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 26 February 2012 (all times are UTC)
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| 04:56 | <cheapie> I have LTSP set up on Debian, but when the clients try to boot, they can't mount the NBD filesystem and drop me to BusyBox. Can anyone here help me with this?
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| 06:52 | <knipwim> cheapie: i don't think i can help specifically (not using debian or nbd)
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| 06:52 | but it would help to be more specific
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| 06:52 | like error and log outputs and such
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| 07:00 | <alkisg> cheapie, also, Debian doesn't use NBD by default, did you specifically wanted to switch from NFS to NBD?
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| 08:31 | <cheapie> OK... I managed to get my old problem fixed, but now I get "No response from server: restarting..." whenever I try to log in. I can SSH to the server OK though.
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| 10:36 | <knipwim> Llama_be: good morning
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| 10:36 | how did the install go?
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| 13:25 | <Llama_be> knipwim: sorry, didn't notice this morning. Some other stuff has come up, and haven't had much time yet. Will continue during the next days, and report back to you.
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| 13:41 | <bakytn> about printers. Using PRINTER_0_* settings require JetDirect capable printers right?
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| 13:41 | I have a question. What kind of JetDirect? Does it suport? As far as I know, there two types of JetDirect servers
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| 13:41 | 300 and 500
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| 13:41 | (may be more)
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| 13:42 | thanks in advance..
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| 16:41 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i woke up a little too early this morning thinking about how to configure pxelinux ...
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| 16:42 | it seemed so clear while i was trying to sleep.
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| 16:43 | essentially, the client chroot needs to communicate what it supports to the server, and the server needs to pick which it can support...
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| 16:48 | and then generate a pxelinux.cfg that supports all the versions the client supports...
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| 16:49 | with ifcpu64.m32 if available, to detect 64 vs 32 bit ... yaboot configurations with powerpc and powerpc64, etc.
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| 16:50 | ifcpu64.m32 can be used to detect a 486 vs. pae vs 64-bit kernel (i have actual use-cases for all 3 in a 32-bit chroot, believe it or not)
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| 16:53 | would be nice to integrate into syslinux directly, but could start out within the ltsp codebase or as it's own source package
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| 16:55 | * vagrantc stumbles across pxe-kexec, as a curiosity | |
| 17:02 | <vagrantc> so extlinux has some sort of system to do this, but it's entirely monolothic ... no plugin system.
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| 17:05 | <vagrantc> i'd really like something more like grub.d, where you can drop plugin files into place
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| 17:05 | but there are some cool features in extlinux-update
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| 17:08 | <alkisg> Hello!
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| 17:09 | Unfortunately I spend half of the weekend debugging a twisted bug in epoptes
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| 17:09 | So I didn't get to move on with the ltsp-mount/ltsp-export-image stuff
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| 17:10 | <alkisg> The pxelinux configuration seems very far for me... first, make it easy to administer LTSP fat clients with vbox, then a configuration system for ltsp, similar to the ltsp-cluster one...
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| 17:11 | vagrantc: does debian also only install ltsp-client-core to S25?
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| 17:12 | I haven't tried a clean ubuntu ltsp installation the last weeks, but I think that the nbd-disconnect script doesn't get called on shutdown...
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| 17:13 | Btw, qemu-nbd rocks, I don't know why the vdfuse people don't use that instead
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| 17:14 | <vagrantc> alkisg: the current debian init system rewrites where it installs ltsp-client-core every time you install an enabled feature.... it's dependency based.
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| 17:14 | <alkisg> vagrantc: but is it called on shutdown?
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| 17:14 | <vagrantc> dunno.
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| 17:15 | don't think so, since it never did anything before.
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| 17:15 | <alkisg> If it was, it would just show some syntax errors about missing functions d_stop etc
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| 17:15 | (or was that in "restart"? not sure)
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| 17:18 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i just noticed you released epoptes 0.4.3
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| 17:18 | <alkisg> vagrantc: yes to make it for "ui freeze" for ubuntu
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| 17:19 | But we have a bug so don't bother releasing anything yet
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| 17:19 | Wait for 0.4.4
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| 17:19 | <vagrantc> ok.
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| 17:19 | <alkisg> ty
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| 17:20 | <vagrantc> i suppose i should set up watch files to point to ubuntu? you're not releasing tarballs "upstream" ?
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| 17:20 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I've no idea what you just said, but I'm not planning on releasing any other -0ubuntux versions, it was just for the ui freeze
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| 17:20 | :)
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| 17:21 | stgraber walked me through the "source tarball" phase, but I'm not sure I completely understood all of it
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| 17:21 | <vagrantc> alkisg: debian/watch files are used to track new releases for upstream versions which is one of the ways i find out about new upstream versions to package
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| 17:22 | <alkisg> I'm still wondering why isn't "debian native" better for epoptes... :D
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| 17:22 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i need to update mkdst to support basically what i've been doing with a little script of mine.
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| 17:22 | alkisg: there's nothing inherrently debian about it?
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| 17:22 | <alkisg> Ah, that's reserved for packages developed *only* for debian?
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| 17:22 | <vagrantc> alkisg: and if you make minor changes to packaging, it uses the same tarball in the archive
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| 17:22 | <alkisg> Not the deratives too?
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| 17:23 | <vagrantc> well, derivatives do whatever they want, but it makes it harder for derivatives to release differing versions
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| 17:23 | i.e. the -0ubuntuX versions
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| 17:24 | <alkisg> Yeah my plan is that I'm too stupid to understand all that so I want the derivatives to tell me what they want to do different so I can put "if"s in the code and release a new version with those :P
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| 17:24 | Haha
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| 17:25 | Kidding aside, will that mkdst thing also help in getting the version from the changelog and putting it to the source code for e.g. epoptes-client --version to work without manually changing it each time?
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| 17:25 | <vagrantc> alkisg: might be simple enough to set up a bzr-release target in (ironically) debian/rules that creates the new upstream tarball.
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| 17:25 | as long as it's not automatically called during build.
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| 17:26 | <alkisg> Sounds fine to me
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| 17:26 | <vagrantc> alkisg: you could have the build process dump a version file somewhere
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| 17:26 | <alkisg> Is that better than sed'ing the version in the source?
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| 17:27 | (thinking of python's __init__.py, which also contains the version...)
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| 17:28 | epoptes/__init__.py:__version__ = "0.4.3"
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| 17:28 | Maybe setup.py could do all that?
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| 17:31 | tcos-configurator has code for that... it even uses __VERSION__ in its headers, I suppose it's substituted by setup.py automatically
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| 17:31 | open('debian/changelog').readline().split()[1].replace('(','').replace(')','')
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| 17:36 | <vagrantc> alkisg: that would only work if debian/changelog was there ... traditionally, it's better if debian/changelog isn't shipped upstream.
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| 17:37 | out of all the problems in epoptes, this one seems to get under your skin :)
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| 17:37 | <alkisg> vagrantc: so the bzr-release target could create the upstream source by reading debian/changelog and sed'ing wherever needed?
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| 17:37 | <vagrantc> actually, epoptes works pretty well.
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| 17:37 | alkisg: yes, although then you'd want to build from the source tarball rather than from the bzr dir.
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| 17:38 | <alkisg> ...as long as a launchpad recipe can do that, I'm fine with it :D
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| 17:38 | <vagrantc> aha.
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| 17:38 | * alkisg stopped building locally! | |
| 17:39 | * vagrantc *sighs* | |
| 17:39 | <alkisg> The main problem of epoptes now is that it doesn't tell people that their chroot certificate is different than the one of the server :-/
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| 17:39 | <vagrantc> long ago, when we split ltsp-client-core out of ltsp-client ... i renamed the ltsp-client-core init script ... but if i had known better, i wouldn't have had to.
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| 17:40 | alkisg: i.e. the certificate handling is broken?
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| 17:40 | alkisg: does it silently work? or does it silently fail?
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| 17:40 | <alkisg> If a user has a wrong certificate, it's the user's fault,
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| 17:40 | and epoptes-client correctly fails to connect, but the problem is that it doesn't notify the user
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| 17:41 | In order to notify the user I'd have to have another sh process as a wrapper for the socat call, wasting 1 more mb of ram
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| 17:42 | There's also a socat bug there, I reported it to the author, but I don't think the fix will make it for precise and not sure about wheezy either
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| 17:42 | Nothing too serious, people that read the instructions should be fine, but those who don't, then complain why epoptes doesn't work for them...
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| 17:44 | <vagrantc> alkisg: there's no way to check the status of socat from whatever's calling it without another shell wrapper?
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| 17:44 | <alkisg> I'm doing `exec socat` there, to save the ram of the caller script
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| 17:44 | And I don't think it has an option to "fork and return success or failure"
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| 17:45 | <vagrantc> right
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| 17:45 | <alkisg> socat then runs a shell, so I could do that:
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| 17:45 | outer script => calls socat => calls inner script, which kills outer script
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| 17:46 | ...but I think in that case I get a sh <defunct>
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| 17:46 | <vagrantc> knipwim: i had to work around the ssh-hostchecker not being executable as well, simple chmoding it at build time, but that should be fixed upstream, probably.
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| 17:48 | hm. epoptes related mail needs it's own folder now, it seems.
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| 17:51 | * alkisg just hardcodes VERSION=xxx in epoptes-client too for now, will automate it in the future when he reads more about all that mkdst/bzr-release stuff... | |
| 18:06 | <knipwim> btw, gentoo has a functional ltsp-client-5.3!
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| 18:06 | <alkisg> congrats!
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| 18:07 | <knipwim> i was wondering though, about dependencies of the ltsp-client package
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| 18:07 | and requirements during the boot process
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| 18:08 | a saw for instance, debian didn't have a dep on cron, although it's configured in an initscript
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| 18:09 | <vagrantc> knipwim: awesome!
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| 18:09 | <knipwim> in the 5.2 situation, the build proces took care of any of those dependencies
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| 18:10 | <vagrantc> knipwim: debian has an indirect recommends on cron, but it should probably have a straight dependency
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| 18:11 | <knipwim> how does debian make sure the cron service is actually started in the ltsp client boot?
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| 18:11 | * vagrantc wonders the status of aufs/overlayfs on obscure architectures | |
| 18:11 | <vagrantc> knipwim: it doesn't.
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| 18:12 | it's a work in progress :)
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| 18:12 | <knipwim> shouldn't it? at least, i was wondering about that for gentoo, making sure to call the required services in 50-rcfiles
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| 18:12 | like cron and syslog
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| 18:13 | <vagrantc> in fact, it's actualy explicitly disabled now, due to init-ltsp.d/Debian/50-rm-system-services ... hrm.
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| 18:13 | <knipwim> ah, work in progress :)
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| 18:13 | <vagrantc> oh, no, it's just in comments
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| 18:13 | <alkisg> What is disabled?
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| 18:14 | We delete some of the cron jobs, but not the cron service
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| 18:14 | And if cron isn't there, the scripts shouldn't fail
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| 18:14 | So why would we need cron as a hard dependency?
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| 18:14 | <vagrantc> alkisg: it's mentioned in the comments, but not actually disabled
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| 18:14 | alkisg: i put it as a suggests in ltsp-client-core and a depends in ltsp-client
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| 18:14 | <alkisg> Why?
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| 18:15 | For the shutdown lts.conf directive?
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| 18:15 | <vagrantc> because of all the cron related lts.conf options.
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| 18:15 | <alkisg> Wouldn't "recommend" be better?
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| 18:15 | <vagrantc> this brings us to the existance of ltsp-client-core....
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| 18:15 | <alkisg> E.g. we also have an lts.conf for numlock, but it only works if one manually installs that package...
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| 18:16 | *option
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| 18:16 | <vagrantc> most of the ltsp-client-core dependencies could be represented as recommends on ltsp-client ...
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| 18:16 | but recommends aren't handled well on upgrades.
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| 18:17 | also, disabling recommends is annoying, and it'd be hard to selectively disable recommends.
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| 18:17 | <knipwim> alkisg: cron is a dependency for SHUTDOWN_TIME
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| 18:17 | <alkisg> knipwim: yes, but not all people use that option, so why make it a dependency?
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| 18:17 | knipwim: if so, we should put the X_NUMLOCK dependency too
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| 18:18 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so yes, the case for recommends can be made, but i'd prefer depends.
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| 18:18 | <knipwim> that is the question, package ltsp-client to include all options by default, or not
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| 18:18 | <vagrantc> alkisg: if you really don't want it, install ltsp-client-core and all the dependencies.
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| 18:19 | <alkisg> In ubuntu it's a dependency of ltsp-client-core :)
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| 18:19 | ltsp-client-core Depends: busybox-static, console-setup, cron, initramfs-tools (>= 0.11), kbd, lsb-base, lsb-release, mkelfimage, nbd-client (>= 1:2.9.25-2), numlockx, pciutils, python, python-daemon, python-serial, syslinux, tftp-hpa, udhcpc, usbutils, libc6 (>= 2.7), libpopt0 (>= 1.14), libx11-6
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| 18:19 | <vagrantc> i'll make it a dependency of ltsp-client, but only a suggests for ltsp-client-core
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| 18:20 | <alkisg> Yeah that sounds reasonable
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| 18:21 | <vagrantc> alkisg: that's basically what i do, for most features, i'll have ltsp-client depend on it and ltsp-client-core suggest it.
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| 18:21 | anything that's core to getting it to boot at all is a dependency for ltsp-client-core.
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| 18:21 | so that's one area wheere debian and ubuntu diverge a bit.
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| 18:22 | <alkisg> I don't mind having cron and other packages installed in my chroot, I'll even use vbox and the desktop ubuntu CDs instead of calling ltsp-build-client from now on, I was just wondering why...
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| 18:22 | I'd like it if the ltsp packaging in ubuntu and in debian got a little closer in the future
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| 18:22 | <vagrantc> and i stick with depends for ltsp-client-core to ensure that upgrades pull in new features.
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| 18:23 | <alkisg> You mean ltsp-client there, right?
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| 18:23 | <vagrantc> ah, yes.
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| 18:23 | well, both, but yes :)
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| 18:24 | i should really experiment with using depends/suggests variables for this stuff.
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| 18:25 | <alkisg> Hmm the lts.conf manpage needs a bit of updating
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| 18:26 | <vagrantc> sure does, probably.
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| 18:26 | ltsp-docs needs some serious review
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| 18:28 | knipwim: added cron as a depends/suggests for the next debian upload, thanks for the bug report! :)
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| 18:28 | <alkisg> vagrantc, knipwim, so should we add x11-xserver-utils for xrandr?
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| 18:30 | <vagrantc> seems reasonable.
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| 18:30 | <knipwim> yup
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| 19:03 | <knipwim> btw, i see another run_rcfiles() in ltsp-init-common, a different one than the common/50-rcfiles
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| 19:04 | the cleanup is also part of the work in progress probably :)
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| 19:14 | <alkisg> knipwim: Gadi copied parts of ltsp-init-common to init-ltsp.d, but he didn't remove them from there, in case other distros wanted to use them as functions
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| 19:15 | So any parts you don't need anymore, remove them...
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| 19:15 | I think in ltsp-init-common we should only keep stuff that ltsp-client(-core) needs
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| 19:15 | I.e. parts that need services up and running to work, and can't go in init-ltsp.d
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| 19:16 | <knipwim> in my case that would only be start_screen_sessions and start_sound
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| 19:17 | some are called from init-ltsp.d scripts
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| 19:17 | <alkisg> They should be moved there then
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| 19:17 | configure_sound_volume => called from udev
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| 19:18 | configure_localdev => from udev
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| 19:18 | configure_swap => init-ltsp.d
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| 19:18 | <knipwim> was gentoo the last distro to move to init-ltsp.d?
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| 19:18 | <alkisg> I think gentoo and opensuse move to that at the same time,
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| 19:18 | while fedora and altlinux... no idea
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| 19:19 | configure_printer => init-ltsp.d (copy)
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| 19:19 | configure_scanner => init-ltsp.d
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| 19:19 | <knipwim> fedora doesn't look too well: http://www.redhat.com/archives/k12osn/2011-May/msg00054.html
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| 19:19 | <alkisg> configure_serial_mouse => ...let's drop that
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| 19:20 | set_time => I think we should drop that too, there are distro initscripts for that
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| 19:20 | configure console, resolver, fstab, home, cron => init-ltsp.d
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| 19:21 | bind_mounts, unmounts => I think they can be dropped
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| 19:21 | nbd_sendsigs_protection => init-ltsp.d
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| 19:21 | So yeah most of ltsp-init-common can go
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| 19:21 | <knipwim> :)
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| 19:21 | i can start on some of those, copying stuff
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| 19:24 | <alkisg> What warren says about LTSP there isn't really true, fat clients support compositing and youtube videos and everything
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| 19:24 | And an atom may be borderline powerfull to run spice, but it can surely run most apps as a fat client
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| 19:25 | <knipwim> i can't even run unity on my atom
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| 19:26 | <alkisg> Really? My daughter's atom, 3 years old, runs it fine (intel card)
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| 19:26 | <knipwim> maybe it's the graphics card then
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| 19:26 | <alkisg> Although she didn't like it at all and asked for the old gnome instead
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| 19:26 | So we compromised on KDE
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| 19:26 | <knipwim> hehe
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| 19:26 | <alkisg> In my laptop (intel again), unity makes 3d apps work very slow
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| 19:27 | So I've switched to gnome-shell
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| 19:47 | <vagrantc> no wonder fedora support is lacking, berating the community for not helping doesn't really inspire people to work together.
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| 19:49 | <knipwim> too bad, i was hoping to collaborate on the dracut initramfs stuff
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| 20:26 | <vagrantc> oh, look, we're famous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ltsp
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| 20:27 | probably could use some updating, though
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| 21:49 | <muppis> That one was hard for now.. To get nvidia working with dual monitors.
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| 23:45 | <alkisg> Shouldn't we remove configure_sound_volume from ltsp-core now that it's called by udev?
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| 23:50 | Also I think that the following ltsp-init-common functions should be removed:
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| 23:50 | configure_localdev (moved to udev), configure_swap configure_resolver configure_fstab configure_home run_rcfiles (moved to init-ltsp.d), configure_serial_mouse bind_mounts bind_unmounts (obsolete)
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| 23:51 | And the following scripts should be deleted: ltsp-setup ltsp-bindmounts (or is gentoo still using it?)
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| 23:53 | So the only functions remaining in ltsp-init-common would be: warn, start_sound, start_screen_sessions
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| 23:54 | ...and in the future start_sound should actually start pulseaudio as user, while logging in in thin sessions only. Not from an initscript.
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