IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 19 November 2013 (all times are UTC)
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| 00:44 | <joules> hi, is the video performance of the rpi better than the t573x ? We have some t573x and looking to replace them.
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| 05:39 | <Ryan52> warren: Interesting, I can't find details about whether there is anything kernel level involved with Time Machine's operations, but assuming not, I guess there are two angles that could be taken... either the logging of file changes (which bitcoin surely hammers hard, but presumably happens at FS level so would happen even without TM enabled) or something in the backup process itself interacting badly, somehow.
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| 05:39 | wrong channel. I fail.
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| 12:00 | <DiGiWoLf> Hi anyone can help?????
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| 14:06 | <cliebow> bennabiy, i think no one really cares which way you add users..openldap is so fast it chews up an ldif in an instant
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| 14:09 | <bennabiy> good to know
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| 14:10 | Has anyone made steps towards using nss_ldapd for a global LTSP authentication base?
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| 15:14 | <sbalneav> Morning all
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| 15:15 | bennabiy: I use ldap for authentication now.
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| 15:15 | but we're working towards PAM based authentication.
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| 15:38 | <bennabiy> sbalneav: which would allow for ldap or other forms of authentication, right?
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| 15:39 | sbalneav: Were you ever able to make it to the common sense store?
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| 15:40 | Go in there and say ben-Nabiy in Hiddenite said you could get a free mate :)
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| 15:40 | They will take care of you
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| 15:46 | <cliebow> bennabiy, yeah my openldap authenticated all users on the server and mounted homedirs and such..thanks to sbalneav
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| 15:51 | <bennabiy> What do I need to do to enable this?
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| 15:51 | it is using the nss_ldapd?
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| 16:00 | <sbalneav> bennabiy: I use the thin client model; so all my processes are running on the server. I just enable pam_ldap and nss_ldap on the server.
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| 16:29 | <vmlintu> bennabiy: we used pam/nss-ldapd before, but we have switched to sssd/pam_krb5 now. If you don't need kerberos for fat client nfs mounts, they both do the same..
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| 17:01 | <bennabiy> I would only be running 1 fat client, all else are thin clients
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| 18:22 | * alkisg waves to vagrantc | |
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| 18:24 | * vagrantc waves | |
| 18:24 | * vagrantc cheers that git-bzr has finally gotten useable. | |
| 18:25 | <vagrantc> although i haven't actually used it yet...
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| 18:27 | <Ryan52> vagrantc: heh, which implementation?
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| 18:28 | there were like 5 last I tried to make sense of the mess.
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| 18:29 | <vagrantc> Ryan52: it's part of git in debian jessie, and also in wheezy-backports
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| 18:29 | Ryan52: so i hope they picked the best one :)
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| 18:58 | <alkisg> vagrantc, sbalneav: do you have time to chat about my next steps? I.e. always have a local user home (e.g. in /tmp/ltspxxx for true thin clients), start pulse as the user, have an ssh fifo for localapps/remoteapps...
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| 19:09 | <vagrantc> alkisg: sure
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| 19:09 | <sbalneav> Yup!
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| 19:09 | <alkisg> Nice!
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| 19:09 | * vagrantc waves to sbalneav | |
| 19:09 | <sbalneav> hey hey vagrantc
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| 19:09 | <alkisg> So, we want a local home for .pulse etc
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| 19:09 | But we don't want to always use sshfs, do we?
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| 19:10 | <sbalneav> Well, for a true thin client scenario, I'd say no, personally.
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| 19:11 | <alkisg> I agree. So we want a temporary home for .pulse, or whatever else udisks etc will need
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| 19:11 | Where does that go? /tmp? /var/run?
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| 19:12 | <sbalneav> Why not under /home? Couldn't we just mount a 16M ramdisk on /home, and make use of pam_mkhomedir?
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| 19:12 | <vagrantc> it would seem simpler to just have a local home under /home
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| 19:13 | <alkisg> The most complex scenario I can think of, is to have true thin or fat sessions decided upon login
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| 19:13 | Now, suppose someone logs in in a fat session, where /home/username is mounted with sshfs or nfs
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| 19:13 | Then he logs out (or uses a different SCREENxx=ldm) and logs in in a true thin session
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| 19:14 | At that weird scenario /home isn't very available for ramdisks...
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| 19:14 | <vagrantc> we, if only through neglect, have given up on supporting multiple ldm instances on a single thin client
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| 19:15 | it's made a lot of assumptions for the last several years
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| 19:15 | <alkisg> I don't see any downsides on _not_ using /home/username for true thin clients though... are there any? except for code simplicity?
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| 19:15 | (which shouldn't be anything weird, just an LDM_HOME=/tmp/xxx
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| 19:16 | <vagrantc> element of least surprise ... your homedir should be, you know, your homedir
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| 19:16 | <sbalneav> I agree.
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| 19:16 | <vagrantc> although we're talking about some very surprising scenarios
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| 19:17 | <alkisg> OK... so, /tmp/ltsp-username-xxx? Or /var/run/ltsp-gid-zzz ?
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| 19:17 | *uid
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| 19:17 | * alkisg hasn't read the FHS recently :) | |
| 19:18 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so we can't just use home on the risk that they'll later log in as a fatclient or using localapps or something?
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| 19:18 | <alkisg> Right
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| 19:18 | And we might also avoid the need for the extra ramdisk, if we reuse one
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| 19:18 | <vagrantc> i'm not sure i'm convinced
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| 19:18 | <alkisg> Isn't /var/run/ a ramdisk already?
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| 19:19 | <vagrantc> well, with aufs/overlayfs, all the dirs are typically on a tmpfs
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| 19:19 | <alkisg> Although I imagine we won't need anything big there, just a few temporary files by some applications like pulse, gvfs etc running locally
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| 19:20 | vagrantc: another scenario, FSTAB_0="mount /home via nfs", and then on login, select a true thin session
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| 19:20 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so, we're not confident we can remove the homedir mount on subsequent loginn?
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| 19:20 | <alkisg> Although... hmm.. that would work too
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| 19:21 | So. If we don't create a ramdisk, and just use the tmpfs that is already there, I don't see any harm done to use /home/username
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| 19:21 | <sbalneav> +1 on nfs mount of home, personally.
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| 19:21 | <vagrantc> i think we should support whatever arbitrary filesystems make sense for a homedir
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| 19:22 | <alkisg> The cleanup phase, when the user exits, might be a bit tricky...
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| 19:22 | <vagrantc> we shouldn't be tied to a specific homedir filesystem, or set of them ... though making some common ones use less manual configuration makes sense
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| 19:22 | <alkisg> On true thin client sessions, we want to remove /home/username, which will only contain .pulse etc
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| 19:22 | <vagrantc> it seems like if we haven't cleaned up, we've got some ugly bugs
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| 19:22 | <alkisg> But if /home/username was mounted via other means (sshfs, nfs), we don't want to remove it
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| 19:23 | <vagrantc> ah, for a persistant /home mount, that would be bad.
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| 19:23 | can't we just use pam_mount for the homedirs, rather than mounting all of /home ?
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| 19:24 | * alkisg doesn't get that part | |
| 19:24 | <alkisg> pam_mount is just one method to mount /home/username, right?
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| 19:24 | The user might mount that with any number of methods...
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| 19:25 | <sbalneav> We're getting close to going back to the old Sun NFS automounter days :D
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| 19:25 | <alkisg> Hehe
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| 19:26 | OK let's go to the next subject...
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| 19:26 | We do want to start pulse as the user, right?
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| 19:26 | <sbalneav> Seems reasonable.
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| 19:27 | <alkisg> That would allow switching screens and having different sound sources in each one
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| 19:27 | And also pulse recommends NOT using it in system mode...
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| 19:28 | <sbalneav> Biggest reason to do it, IMHO
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| 19:28 | <alkisg> I've done that as a proof of concept, PULSE_COOKIE needs to be transfered, nothing hard
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| 19:28 | Next. For client <=> server communication, we can avoid xprops and use a socket instead
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| 19:28 | (fifo)
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| 19:29 | E.g. client side: ssh server create-socket-and-listen-for-commands
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| 19:29 | server-side: echo command to socket
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| 19:29 | <alkisg> That should be ...wayland or console compatible, and we wouldn't need a .c file for its implementation
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| 19:31 | The listener should better be started from /etc/xdg/autostart, in order to have all the environment (DBUS_SESSION_ADDRESS etc) available
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| 19:31 | Does that sound reasonable?
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| 19:31 | <sbalneav> yeah.
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| 19:31 | One of these days I really need to sit down and figure out dbus.
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| 19:32 | <alkisg> And finally, about localapps... do we want to switch to using udisks, and if that's not easy enough, udisks-glue?
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| 19:33 | So that the local user (which should be considered "active" in logind) gets his devices automounted without any udev code from us?
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| 19:33 | *localdev, sorry
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| 19:34 | So that we drop the udev hooks, cdpinger, and only have some udisks hook for ltspfs[d]?
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| 19:34 | <vagrantc> not familiar enough with udisks to know...
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| 19:35 | but i've heard a lot of skepticism about it working for our needs...
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| 19:35 | <alkisg> Like what?
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| 19:35 | <vagrantc> permissions issues, access to dbus, dunno. like i said, i'm not familiar with it at all.
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| 19:35 | <alkisg> Suppose we're in a normal pc where everything is automounted, cdroms, usb sticks etc
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| 19:36 | <vagrantc> stgraber: was it you menntioning problems with using udisks?
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| 19:36 | <alkisg> Can ltspfs[d] work over the mounts in /media/xxx ?
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| 19:36 | <vagrantc> ah.
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| 19:36 | that sounds like a more elegant approach.
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| 19:36 | but that doesn't really handle the auto-unmounting and whatnot, no?
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| 19:37 | <sbalneav> One of the problems I was having with udisks was I wasn't getting properly auth'd with consolekit.
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| 19:37 | <alkisg> udisks-glue is a small script that automounts everything, yeah
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| 19:37 | <vagrantc> all these years, for better or worse, we've been teaching people they can just yank the usb stick after two seconds...
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| 19:37 | alkisg: but unmounting?
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| 19:37 | <alkisg> That's server-side, an ltspfs issue,
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| 19:37 | <vagrantc> no, it's client-side
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| 19:37 | <alkisg> we can do that if we have an umount helper
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| 19:38 | <vagrantc> client-side, it automatically UN-mounts after two seconds of inactivity
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| 19:38 | <alkisg> So the users will see an unmount icon in nautilus etc
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| 19:38 | Then, the helper will notify the client (over the ssh fifo) to unmount the stick there too
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| 19:38 | <vagrantc> but if we're leaving that to udisks, can we unmount it
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| 19:39 | <alkisg> Wait. We're on a thin client with localdev. Nautilus runs server-side.
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| 19:39 | The user clicks on the unmount icon of nautilus
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| 19:39 | udisks runs on the client
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| 19:39 | <vagrantc> yes, but the way it currently works has a "feature" that sounds like we won't support anymore...
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| 19:39 | <alkisg> How will we notify the client, if not via an umount helper + the ssh fifo?
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| 19:40 | You mean the "sync every 2 seconds"?
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| 19:40 | <vagrantc> it's not sync every two seconds, it's unmount after inactivity, but leave it mounted on the server side, and remount if activity is requested
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| 19:41 | so on the hardware level, it unmounts after two seconds of inactivity.
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| 19:41 | even if on a software level the mount still appears present
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| 19:41 | <sbalneav> right.
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| 19:41 | <vagrantc> that sounds like it's going to be hard to emulate
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| 19:41 | <alkisg> Unmount instead of sync, to avoid journal entries?
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| 19:42 | If we want to unmount it every 2 seconds and then remount it when there's activity... I think udisks will get in our way, it won't help much...
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| 19:43 | OK, so, we postpone that part, and just write an udev rule to drop cdpinger for now?
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| 19:43 | <sbalneav> Seems reasonable
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| 19:44 | <alkisg> sbalneav: if you could look into that, you're much more familiar with udev than me... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/1094998
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| 19:44 | <sbalneav> k
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| 19:45 | <alkisg> Thanks!
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| 19:45 | Those should keep me busy for a few weeks, thanks for the chat guys
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| 19:47 | <vagrantc> glad to help
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| 19:48 | alkisg: if you've got any of it ready by this coming weekend, i should be able to upload it to debian
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| 19:48 | alkisg: you had that one patch almost ready?
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| 19:48 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I committed the X01-localapps patch
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| 19:49 | <vagrantc> ah, great.
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| 19:49 | <alkisg> It's mostly a rewrite, so it needs testing, but I did do some tests of my own...
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| 19:49 | <vagrantc> good, i'll give it some abuse too
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| 19:49 | <alkisg> The old code had a few issues, but I couldn't find any issues at all in the latest code,
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| 19:49 | except of course if the LDAP username is so weird that it breaks the sed line...
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| 19:50 | <vagrantc> that sounds notably better.
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| 19:51 | * vagrantc uses it as an excuse to test git-bzr | |
| 19:51 | <alkisg> The best part is that on systems with many many groups, it should lower the execution time from 1+ minutes to 1- seconds...
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| 19:51 | As it only reads the groups it needs to, not all server groups
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| 19:52 | <vagrantc> smart.
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| 20:35 | <alkisg> vagrantc, sbalneav: I'm still a little weary about `rm -rf $LDM_HOME` on true thin client sessions... if some user uses e.g. pam_mount to mount /home/username, and it stays mounted e.g. because of .gvfs, we might end up erasing it...
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| 20:36 | So I'm thinking of reusing /var/run/ldm-xauth-XXXXXXXXX for the "true thin session" user home
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| 20:36 | <alkisg> So e.g. /var/run/ltsp-XXXXXX will be equal to LDM_HOME, and it will contain .Xauthority, .pulse and whatever other temporary file we'll need
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| 21:04 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so actually using a different homedir?
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| 21:08 | <alkisg> vagrantc: yes, it feels safer that way...
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| 21:08 | vagrantc: in that case, the user isn't supposed to have any local home at all anyways...
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| 21:09 | Or, I suppose we could put pulse etc in the temp dir, and completely ignore the user home, if it exists or not
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| 21:09 | Currently the code doesn't create a /home/username on true thin sessions
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| 21:26 | <vagrantc> alkisg: what about always mounting something?
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| 21:26 | the current code doesn't, but what if it did?
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| 21:27 | <alkisg> There's some ram overhead, ...
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| 21:27 | ...the kiosk mode might need a few more "ifs" there, ...
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| 21:27 | ...maybe some security considerations, ...
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| 21:28 | * alkisg can't think of anything else | |
| 21:32 | <alkisg> I think we could start with .pulse in the same dir as xauthority, and ignore LDM_HOME completely
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| 21:32 | If more files are needed in the future, we could revisit it...
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| 21:32 | *revise
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| 21:33 | <vagrantc> hrm.
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| 21:34 | * alkisg still wants to support 128mb ram clients in 14.04 :) | |
| 21:34 | <alkisg> Although I'm thinking of shipping a stripped-down debian chroot for true thin client installations...
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| 21:40 | 'night :)
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| 22:26 | <bennabiy> for the LDAP professionals. My import worked... but I left out a couple fields that I wanted to populate. Can I do an ldif to just put those fields in without changing the others, or do I need to do something else? It would be a bit tedious to do it all by hand.
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| 22:27 | back later...
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