IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 10 August 2016 (all times are UTC)
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| 09:23 | <RussellE> hi Alkis
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| 09:25 | <alkisg> Hi RussellE
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| 09:25 | !vnc-dide
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| 09:25 | <ltsp> vnc-dide: To share your screen with me, run this: sudo apt-get --yes install x11vnc; x11vnc -connect srv1-dide.ioa.sch.gr - this is a reverse connection, it doesn't need port forwarding etc.
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| 09:25 | <alkisg> RussellE: do this from your server ^
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| 09:26 | <RussellE> ok
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| 09:31 | <alkisg> RussellE: in all the cases that you've tried so far, the client failed to boot? And, with what messages or symptoms?
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| 09:32 | <RussellE> Yes, the RPI3 hangs at initial boot. I dont think I followed your last email instructions correctly
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| 09:33 | <alkisg> RussellE: there are 2 basic methods, one with raspi2, and one with raspberrypi-bootloader
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| 09:33 | Can we try both of them, in that order?
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| 09:33 | <RussellE> I got a copy of Ubuntu Mate from the Flavour Maker site and copied the /boot contents onto the SD
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| 09:33 | <alkisg> Or do you think we should only try the second one?
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| 09:33 | <RussellE> Yes we can try anything you suggest
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| 09:34 | <alkisg> (12:33:43 μμ) RussellE: I got a copy of Ubuntu Mate from the Flavour Maker site and copied the /boot contents onto the SD ==> and then it booted?
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| 09:34 | The message when it hangs matters a lot, e.g. if it hangs in initramfs>, it's a completely different story compared to when it hangs with a rainbow screen before the kernel is loaded
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| 09:35 | <RussellE> Yes it booted with the old initrd.img and vmlinuz but when I copied the current ones from the server it hangs at the rainbow screen
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| 09:38 | <alkisg> RussellE: OK, can you insert an SD card to the server in order to prepare it?
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| 09:38 | <RussellE> My server doesnt have an SD slot so i will copy the files from the folder onto my laptop then onto the SD
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| 09:38 | <alkisg> Does your laptop run Ubuntu?
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| 09:39 | <RussellE> no I am on windows
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| 09:39 | I normally use Teamviewer for remote support
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| 09:39 | if that helps
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| 09:40 | <alkisg> And you don't have a usb to sd adapter or usb stick, right?
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| 09:40 | <RussellE> No
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| 09:40 | <alkisg> OK
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| 09:40 | I'll prepare the folder and then you can transfer it as you usually do
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| 09:40 | <RussellE> But I can transfer the files easily, will only take a min
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| 09:40 | <alkisg> Btw, do you want me to install epoptes? It helps maintaining the clients
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| 09:40 | !epoptes
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| 09:40 | <ltsp> epoptes: Epoptes is a computer lab administration and monitoring tool. It works on Ubuntu and Debian based labs with LTSP or non-LTSP servers, thin and fat clients, standalone workstations, NX clients etc. More info: http://www.epoptes.org
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| 09:40 | <alkisg> (it only takes 1 minute...)
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| 09:41 | <RussellE> Yes I do but I had problems in the past installing it, was on my todo list once I had sorted this issue out
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| 09:41 | <alkisg> OK, will do it now
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| 09:41 | We'll first try with the raspi2 approach
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| 09:42 | If that fails, we'll then try with the raspberrypi-bootloader approach
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| 09:51 | RussellE: can you copy that folder to the sd card, but before doing so, completely remove all the old files from the card?
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| 09:52 | <RussellE> Yes I have formatted the SD again
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| 09:52 | <alkisg> Nice, copy the ~/Documents/RaspberryPi/sd_card contents there
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| 09:54 | <RussellE> ok I have booted the RPI3 with the updated SD contents and its hanging at the rainbow screen
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| 09:54 | <alkisg> OK then let's try the other approach
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| 09:54 | <RussellE> ok
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| 09:55 | <alkisg> RussellE: your dnsmasq is not properly configured, did you manage to completely boot ltsp clients with it?
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| 09:56 | I.e. what is running is the "fake" dnsmasq that network-manager spawns, not the real one. Should I fix this?
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| 10:05 | <RussellE> Yes I have been able to boot clients. I used the DNS fix from the guide
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| 10:06 | The alternative method from the ltsp-pnp guide to be precise
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| 10:08 | <alkisg> OK
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| 10:10 | RussellE: can you try with this updated folder?
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| 10:11 | <RussellE> ok will do
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| 10:13 | <alkisg> It won't completely boot, but if it passes the rainbow screen, it's a good sign
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| 10:13 | <RussellE> I notice you ln'd, do I need to copy the files again?
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| 10:14 | <alkisg> No, I didn't; I put a comment there
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| 10:14 | You don't need to copy the files again
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| 10:15 | <RussellE> success it booted :-)
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| 10:15 | <alkisg> up to which point?
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| 10:16 | <RussellE> current message on screen: random: nonblocking pool is initialized
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| 10:16 | <alkisg> OK, let's try a mix now, with the current ltsp initrd...
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| 10:17 | <RussellE> ok
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| 10:18 | So I need to copy the vmlinuz and initrd.img onto the SD?
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| 10:18 | <alkisg> RussellE: and cmdline.txt and config.txt
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| 10:18 | 4 files
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| 10:19 | <RussellE> ok doing now
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| 10:19 | <alkisg> Do overwrite the existing txt files with the new ones
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| 10:22 | <RussellE> I have booted with the updated files and it is hanging at the rainbow screen
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| 10:23 | <alkisg> RussellE: can you try again? I'm now using the new kernel, but the old config.txt
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| 10:24 | RussellE: please do a complete sync, with erasing before copy
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| 10:24 | As I also updated kernel7.img etc
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| 10:27 | <RussellE> so I have copied the sd_card folder, vmlinuz, initird.img, command.txt but not config.txt?
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| 10:28 | <alkisg> RussellE: config.txt is there, cmdline.txt is not
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| 10:29 | There's no vmlinuz either
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| 10:29 | <RussellE> ok I will just copy whats in the sd_card folder
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| 10:29 | <alkisg> Yes please
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| 10:30 | <RussellE> ok I have formatted the SD, copied the files and it is hanging at the rainbow screen
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| 10:31 | let me try again just to be sure
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| 10:33 | Alkisg: no its still hanging at the rainbow screen
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| 10:33 | <alkisg> RussellE: OK, unfortunately that's an issue, because it seems like the stock kernel can't boot rpi3,
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| 10:33 | and the custom kernel that can boot it, lacks an initrd
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| 10:34 | Did you mention that you were able to boot it using an rpi3 kernel from a ppa?
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| 10:34 | Which one was that?
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| 10:34 | From ppisati?
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| 10:35 | <RussellE> one sec let me find my notes
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| 10:36 | This was the .DEB i got that worked
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| 10:36 | https://launchpad.net/~p-pisati/+archive/ubuntu/embedded/+files/raspberrypi3-firmware_4.1.19-a192a05-2_armhf.deb
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| 10:36 | So yes ppisati
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| 10:38 | <alkisg> RussellE: OK, that's the firmware, but which kernel did you use with that one?
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| 10:39 | <RussellE> Oh I have been using the kernel generated from when I followed the guide some months back
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| 10:40 | <alkisg> So the raspi2 kernel? That's good news then, lets try that
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| 10:40 | RussellE: hmm although I see in your mail that you tried with the new kernel and it failed?
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| 10:41 | That's what I'm afraid of, that the problem is in the ubuntu stock kernel, and nothing is wrong with the wiki page currently except this kernel bug that needs to be fixed
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| 10:42 | RussellE: so, kernel 4.2.0-1025-raspi2 boots your rpi3, but 4.4.0-1017-raspi2 and 4.4.0-1019-raspi2 can't boot it, right?
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| 10:42 | <RussellE> I suspect you are correct because all the steps from the guide when used with the old kernel give me a working environment
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| 10:43 | Yes Kernel 4.2.0.1025 works and the others dont
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| 10:43 | <alkisg> It probably is a regression from 4.2 to 4.4 then, and we need to report it. The bad news is that this may take weeks to be fixed.
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| 10:43 | You should use the older kernel in the mean time
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| 10:44 | <RussellE> Ok, I agree with your analysis and I needed to confirm from someone who understood the whole thing better than me ;-)
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| 10:44 | So where do we go from here with regards reporting?
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| 10:44 | <alkisg> Do you have an rpi2 to test with?
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| 10:45 | * alkisg doesn't have an rpi3, but would like to see if it only affects rpi3 or if it also affects rpi2 | |
| 10:46 | <RussellE> Yes i do, and i think i did try it at one point, but I can try again.
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| 10:46 | <alkisg> And did it boot with the new kernel, or not?
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| 10:47 | <RussellE> The only issue is that I am currently using it as a wifi-lan bridge in my lab which is what is giving me my RPI3 Internet at the moment so I would need to reconfigure things in order to test
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| 10:47 | <alkisg> Maybe you can put the rpi3 in its place
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| 10:49 | <RussellE> Yes I am running minibian on it but for some reason when i take out the SD and put it in the RPI3 eth0 stops working (i suspect it is driver related after isusing an apt-get upgrade command)
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| 10:49 | <alkisg> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-raspi2
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| 10:49 | This is where the bug should be reported
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| 10:50 | It would also help a lot if "bisection" was done, i.e. an effort to locate the exact upload when it broke
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| 10:50 | There are some kernels in that page that can be downloaded
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| 10:51 | <alkisg> After the bug is reported there, if days pass and noone responds, it would be good to ping people at #ubuntu-kernel
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| 10:52 | <RussellE> ok. I have never reported a bug before but I guess I can learn.
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| 10:52 | <alkisg> Here's a big list of the kernels that were uploaded: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/xenial/+source/linux-raspi2
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| 10:53 | A big help would be to find the one that caused the breakage, the "regression"
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| 10:53 | <RussellE> But before I report you suggest I try the various Kernels to find out which one works?
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| 10:54 | <alkisg> It would make the bug report more easy to work with
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| 10:54 | But you can also do it later on if you want...
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| 10:54 | It depends on the time you have, the deadlines etc
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| 10:56 | <RussellE> I am happy to test before reporting. But just to clarify, to test, I download a test kernel, open it up and extract the kernel and copy onto the SD?
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| 10:59 | <alkisg> RussellE: while that won't make the client boot, copying vmlinuz and passing the rainbow screen would be a very good indication on if the problem exists there or not
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| 11:00 | So if you do find out that e.g. kernel 4.4.0-1010.12 gives you a rainbow, and 4.4.0-1010.11 shows some text, it will help the bug report a whole lot
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| 11:01 | RussellE: you can use the "sdcard.raspi2" folder to test with, because that's the one that uses normal names like vmlinuz instead of kernel7.img
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| 11:02 | <RussellE> understood. I am a little lost with the list and what to download once there, can you show for instance with 4.3.0-1006.6 which file I should download. Once I get it where is the Kernel located in the structure
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| 11:03 | <alkisg> OK, watch the vnc screen
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| 11:05 | <alkisg> linux-image-4.4.0-1000-raspi2_4.4.0-1000.1_armhf.deb (19.4 MiB)
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| 11:07 | RussellE: ok, can you try with that one?
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| 11:07 | I.e. download with firefox, use dpkg-deb -X, then cp vmlinuz to sd_card
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| 11:07 | So now we'll be trying with the fist 4.4 kernel, this one: vmlinuz-4.4.0-1000-raspi
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| 11:08 | <RussellE> ok
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| 11:10 | ok so using that kernel I get the rainbow screen
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| 11:10 | <alkisg> Now let's try with a 4.2 one
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| 11:11 | Can you try it yourself, and call me if you get stuck?
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| 11:11 | <RussellE> ok will do thanks
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| 11:13 | <alkisg> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-raspi2/4.2.0-1013.19/+build/8136687
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| 11:14 | <RussellE> I am working from my laptop in case so you wont see much activity on the server
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| 11:32 | <lbssousa> alkisg: do you still have plans to migrate Epoptes VCS to Git? If yes, would you prefer migrating it out to e.g. GitHub or keeping it in Launchpad (now that it has an initial Git hosting)? I'm interested in packaging latest epoptes code in a personal repo in Fedora Copr, but it only supports git repos.
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| 11:39 | <alkisg> lbssousa: there are some plans for that, yes, I think Phantomas has tried the launchpad git hosting as a test
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| 11:40 | But since the project is no longer funded, its development has stalled a bit as well
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| 11:40 | Let's hope funding is found within a year or so...
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| 11:44 | <alkisg> RussellE: need any help? did it boot with 4.2?
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| 11:48 | <RussellE> Alkisg: I had an interesting result. When I used the files from the sd_card folder with the first kernel in the list 4.2.0.1013 (which is older than my currently working Kernel) it hung at the rainbow screen.
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| 11:49 | <alkisg> RussellE: sometimes a mismatch between kernel and firmware is to blame
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| 11:49 | <RussellE> So I formatted the sd card, put my working kernel and firmware files on, confirmed it booted ok, then replaced vmlinux with the older 4.2.0-1013 copy and guess what it booted
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| 11:50 | <alkisg> Right, so that old firmware works with the 4.2 kernel, but the new firmware doesn't
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| 11:51 | What we want to report is that the current stock ubuntu kernel and firmware don't work
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| 11:51 | <RussellE> I used the firmware from https://launchpad.net/~p-pisati/+archive/ubuntu/embedded/+files/raspberrypi3-firmware_4.1.19-a192a05-2_armhf.deb
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| 11:51 | <alkisg> So try with the new firmware, and find the kernels which work with that
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| 11:51 | Unfortnately noone will care about a firmware from some ppa, other than ppisati himself, which does participate in the ubuntu kernel maintenance...
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| 11:52 | It's best to try with the stock firmware, everyone will care about that
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| 11:52 | <RussellE> ok so the newest firmware is the one in the guide right?
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| 11:52 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 11:52 | <RussellE> ok I will use that
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| 11:52 | <alkisg> RussellE: but, we did verify that the ppisati firmware doesn't work with 4.4, correct?
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| 11:53 | If it does work with the latest kernel, then it's significant information that only the current firmware is to blame
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| 11:54 | <RussellE> Yes we did verify that ppisati doesnt work with 4.4
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| 11:54 | <alkisg> OK
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| 12:02 | <RussellE> alkisg: using the firmware from the wiki and my old kernel i get the rainbow screen
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| 12:04 | but to confirm using the firmware from ppisati and the old kernel I can boot successfully
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| 12:04 | So also the firmware is an issue?
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| 12:41 | alkisg: As a further test I was able to successfully boot the RPI3 using the Ubuntu Pi Flavour Maker firmware (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-pi-flavour-makers/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+build/9426137/+files/raspberrypi-bootloader_1.20160315-1~xenial1.0_armhf.deb) and my old Kernel
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| 12:41 | <alkisg> RussellE: there are 3 options: (1) the kernel is broken, (2) the firmware is broken, (3) the firmware doesn't match the kernel version
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| 12:42 | (03:02:42 μμ) RussellE: alkisg: using the firmware from the wiki and my old kernel i get the rainbow screen ==> I think this one is "3", but it can also be "2"
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| 12:43 | Is there any kernel that can be booted with that firmware?
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| 12:45 | If the new kernel can't be booted with any firmware, and the new firmware can't boot any kernel, it's possible that both are broken then
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| 12:45 | <RussellE> so far no but i have only tested a few but i have tested the oldest kernel (which is older than my working copy) and the newest and both have failed with that firmware
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| 12:46 | <alkisg> OK in that case there's no need to check any additional kernels
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| 12:46 | We can just report that they don't boot at all, period :D
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| 12:46 | What we could do is check older kernels with older firmwares
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| 12:46 | Let me find the link for the official older firmwares...
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| 12:47 | <RussellE> ok
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| 12:47 | <alkisg> Main page: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-firmware-raspi2
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| 12:48 | ...they didn't have many older releases there... https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-firmware-raspi2/+publishinghistory
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| 12:49 | ...so no, not much to test there
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| 12:49 | So maybe it's enough testing; do file the bug report and let's see what their answers are
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| 12:51 | ...those are its older versions, with the older "raspberrypi2-firmware" name: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/raspberrypi2-firmware/+publishinghistory
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| 12:52 | RussellE: can you try with this one? https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/raspberrypi2-firmware/4.1.15-b70b451-0ubuntu1/+build/9001776
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| 12:54 | <RussellE> will do now
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| 12:55 | <alkisg> Try with your "working" kernel first, if that fails, no need to bother
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| 12:55 | Just file the bug report then
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| 12:55 | <RussellE> ok
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| 12:56 | should i try with my RPI2 before reporting the bug?
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| 13:06 | <RussellE> alkisg: Looking at that file it looks identical to the one in the wiki
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| 13:08 | alkisg: I am getting the same result, rainbow screen. i guess its time to report the bug
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| 13:51 | <rrn> Hi, is it possible to realize all the functionality of an existing workstation (webcam, scanner, keyboard, mouse, multiple high-resolution monitors, etc.) with LTSP on appropriate hardware?
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| 13:51 | From what I've read on the documentation, my impression is that LTSP offers limited functionality.
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| 14:02 | <||cw> rrn: with "fat client" mode, yes
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| 14:02 | <rrn> ||cw: excellent :)
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| 14:02 | <||cw> it's still PXE boot and diskless, but everything runs locally, so all that works the same as a normal install
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| 14:03 | <rrn> ||cw: Oh, so it would be merely diskless? That's not interesting.
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| 14:03 | <||cw> ideally you have a gigabit LAN for this, but you can have a smaller server
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| 14:03 | rrn: how so? it's still using the server's OS image
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| 14:04 | <rrn> ||cw: Yes, I'll have dual gigabit links for each server and workstation to a high-end managed switch.
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| 14:04 | <||cw> the only drawback is that you can't just power off the client and resume your session later
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| 14:04 | <rrn> But computation is performed locally, not on the server.
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| 14:04 | <||cw> right
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| 14:05 | <RussellE> .
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| 14:05 | <rrn> My goal is to imitate Plan 9 by having a separate file server, a diskless computation server, and diskless workstations.
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| 14:05 | <||cw> but any pentium dual core better will do that just fine
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| 14:05 | <Hyperbyte> rrn, if you use thin clients, then all hardware has to be connected to the server, or LTSP has to support the hardware remotely via the thin clients. With USB sticks, printers, etc, this is all implemented, because those are common use cases. Two screens will also work with LTSP, but I doubt it can transmit USB webcams over the network.
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| 14:06 | <||cw> but even with thin clients, you can still have localapps for the things that cna't be easily tunneled back to the server
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| 14:06 | <rrn> Hyperbyte: I see, that's what I thought.
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| 14:06 | <Hyperbyte> rrn, with fat clients, you get regular Linux experience, but without harddisk, so anything that would normally work, will work.
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| 14:06 | <||cw> storage and printers can, I'm not sure any work has been done on webcams and scanners, though SANE does have a network mode that might do it
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| 14:07 | but IMO, network scanners are the way to go, either standalone or MFP
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| 14:08 | but webcams are beastly amount of data, which would push limits even on a gigabit lan with more than 1 going
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| 14:08 | <RussellE> alkisg: Final updates. I have confirmed that the Kernel is broken on both RPI2 and RPI3 from Xenial (4.3.0-1006.6) onwards. The stock firmware works on RPI2 but is broken on RPI3. I will now raise a bug alert
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| 14:08 | <||cw> so you really do want to process them locally
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| 14:08 | <Hyperbyte> rrn, also, there is no such thing as a "diskless computation server". With a thin client, all software is started on the server. With a fat client, it's all started on the client. Server only does dhcp for PXE boot, NBD for providing the image, and SSH for logging in. No more.
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| 14:09 | <rrn> ||cw: I'm simply trying to centralize computing as much as possible---I really love this concept.
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| 14:09 | <Hyperbyte> rrn, technically, if your router does DHCP, your NAS supports TFTP and NBD and you have another server that clients can SSH to, you don't even need an LTSP server.
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| 14:09 | <rrn> Hyperbyte: I mean, the computation server (a.k.a. thin client server) is itself diskless.
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| 14:10 | <Hyperbyte> rrn, for fat clients, that is. It wouldn't surprise me if you can use a raspberry pi as LTSP fat client server. They have almost no load.
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| 14:10 | <||cw> rrn: so where does it boot from?
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| 14:10 | <rrn> ||cw: A separate file server.
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| 14:10 | <||cw> how
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| 14:10 | <rrn> NFS
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| 14:10 | <||cw> basically as a ltsp fat client?
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| 14:10 | <rrn> and the file server will be connected to a SAN
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| 14:11 | <||cw> will you have a 10G link between that server and the file server?
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| 14:11 | or FC?
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| 14:11 | <Hyperbyte> rrn, are you trying to centralize the software or hardware as well?
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| 14:11 | <rrn> Hyperbyte: I wish to centralize as much as possible---I'm really interested in Plan 9's philosophy.
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| 14:11 | <||cw> I guess NFS means 10G, if 1G you're going to have bandwidth issues
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| 14:12 | <rrn> ||cw: Yes, I'll have >= 2 10 gigabit links.
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| 14:12 | <||cw> bell labs plan 9? that's distributed
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| 14:13 | rrn: well, NFS is only going to use 1 link so...
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| 14:13 | <Hyperbyte> rrn, thing is - if you centralize hardware, this is going to be more expensive on your infrastructure and not make much difference. I've done it for one my clients, because they have a proper gigabit network, not too many clients and don't want computers making noise in their offices. But even for 20 workstations, it requires a beast of a server if you want performance.
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| 14:14 | They have a server with Dual Opteron processors, total 16 cores at 3.2ghz, with 64 GB ram, and sometimes still complain it's slow, if people are doing resource intensive things.
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| 14:15 | rrn, also, things like playing video fullscreen, will not be possible on HD screens, because gigabit network simply can't handle a raw HD videostream.
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| 14:15 | <rrn> Hyperbyte: This is a home network (just a microwave RF lab and home offices) so there will be relatively few clients.
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| 14:15 | <Hyperbyte> rrn, if you're willing to make those investments and concessions, then yeah, sure - centralize hardware. Otherwise, don't do it.
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| 14:16 | rrn, regardless... calculate how large a bitmap image is at 1920x1080, 32bit and then see how many frames/second you can dump over a gigabit link.
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| 14:16 | <rrn> Hmm I see
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| 14:17 | 10 gigabit costs nothing *as long as* the distance is short
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| 14:17 | <Hyperbyte> rrn, LTSP thin clients are great for limited, well-defined business use (browsing web to a degree, e-mail, crm's, office, etc). For personal use, I wouldn't go that way.
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| 14:17 | <||cw> I think ltsp has some tools to get where you want, but you're ging to have to combine some other tools in too to reach anything like plan9. but fat clients would be the closes model to a distributed system without rewriting the whole OS
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| 14:19 | I don't think plan9 imagined things like 1080 webcams. but if it did, you'd have some local processing on the device the webcam is plugged into in order to optimize it for network consumption.
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| 14:19 | like an IP cam does.
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| 14:19 | which if you want to go full plan9, you'd use IP cams, not usb webcams
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| 14:20 | <rrn> ||cw: Oh right, I forgot about IP cams!
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| 14:21 | Hmm too bad that distributed, centralized computing is rare---otherwise we'd have optimized hardware and faster networking at lower costs.
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| 14:22 | <alkisg> !ltsp-pnp | echo rrn:
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| 14:22 | <ltsp> rrn: ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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| 14:22 | <alkisg> ..that's the fastest/easiest way to test ltsp thin and fat clients
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| 14:22 | <||cw> I wouldn't be surprised if there's a daemon you could install into your thin image that would take the usb video stream and make it a compressed network stream. in fact I've be surprised if there isn't
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| 14:23 | rrn: distributed and centralized are conflicting terms
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| 14:23 | <rrn> ||cw: Not in the semantics that I use.
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| 14:23 | <alkisg> RussellE: nice! please send me the bug link when you do so.
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| 14:24 | <rrn> ||cw: ``centralized'' meaning that general classes of nontrivial operations (disk storage and processing, computation) are centralized to dedicated servers with hardware and software optimized for the purpose
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| 14:25 | ||cw: ``distributed'' meaning that subsystems, ordinarily combined into a general-purpose PC or workstation, are separated geographically over a network
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| 14:26 | <||cw> I'm not sure centralized is the best word for that.
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| 14:26 | even with a thin client you have some processing on the client
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| 14:27 | <rrn> oh of course, processing for the purpose of interfacing with the user
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| 14:27 | <||cw> storage and processing are just nodes in the distributed model
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| 14:28 | <rrn> Ok, scanners are no problem thanks to saned.
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| 14:29 | What about surround audio, GPU acceleration, and removable storage devices (mass storage, PTP, etc.)?
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| 14:29 | <||cw> alkisg: anyone tried webcams on thin clients that you know of?
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| 14:31 | <||cw> rrn: ltspfs for storage, things that can use xv can do some gpu offloading, but it's limited until you switch up to PCoIP or some similar graphics offloading
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| 14:32 | <||cw> audio is low bandwidth and works well
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| 14:33 | <rrn> ||cw, Hyperbyte: Ok, excellent, I'll proceed with actual experimentation of LTSP!
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| 15:04 | <alkisg> ||cw: they work fine with localapps, and they don't work by default on normal, remote apps
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| 15:04 | I think someone tried with usb over ip, but I don't know if he succeeded
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| 15:04 | ...usb webcams, I assume, not ip webcams
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| 15:04 | <||cw> right
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| 15:05 | * alkisg didn't see all the chat, why is rrn considering thin clients instead of fat ones? | |
| 15:05 | <alkisg> Like vagrantc says, "they're so 90s..." :D
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| 15:08 | <rrn> alkisg: Fashion trends are meaningless; I want a highly-distributed network with centralized operations.
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| 15:09 | <alkisg> rrn: no they aren't; if everyone supports one thing, and you're looking for another, you're in for a lot of work :)
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| 15:09 | LTSP has been used for distributed services
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| 15:09 | And by nature it's centralized
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| 15:11 | <rrn> alkisg: I don't use mainstream equipment, and if something isn't available, I custom-build it or obtain it from academia or R&D (e.g., I'm in the process of building an atomic clock ensemble fusor b/c there's only 1 Russian company in the entire world that manufactures such a piece of equipment).
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| 15:13 | <alkisg> I would love to have 1.000.000 years in order to be able to build my own OS... but unfortunately I don't
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| 15:14 | Anyway, LTSP has been used to create clusters for distributed computing, so we know it works there
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| 15:14 | <rrn> webcams should be no problem, as long as I can get clients (e.g., Skype) to reach them
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| 15:16 | Yeah, I really abhor a lot of the technology that's out there---I consider it to be designed and engineered incorrectly.
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| 15:17 | I generally like space, military, and academic design and engineering philosophies though.
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| 16:56 | <boj> Hi
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| 16:57 | Can someone guide me fat or thin clients suits my environment ?
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| 16:57 | I have 2GB RAM with dual core processor for all my clients
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| 16:58 | And the server is I5 with 16 GB RAM
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| 17:15 | <julienfayad> hi boj, depends on the use you’ll make out of your clients
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| 17:15 | but with this config. I would say go with FAT
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| 17:16 | I actually think LTSP will boot as FAT by default since it’s over 400 or 800 MB of ram which is set as a trigger to boot as FAT client
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| 17:23 | <boj> Can you pls share me a good document for configuring and understanding FAT client
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| 17:24 | Because i am confused by seeing this configuration https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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| 17:25 | I am actually looking for a document like this "https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiEoPDurrfOAhWKp48KHRQQCOwQFggmMAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thefanclub.co.za%2Fhow-to%2Fhow-create-ubuntu-1104-x64-ltsp-server-32bit-thin-clients&usg=AFQjCNHaaV4t0JfCQRO9tjZQttHax_qOCA&sig2=v1hVodh71JNn8rnxBx24WA"
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| 17:25 | <julienfayad> well I used ltsp-pnp
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| 17:25 | <julienfayad> so I don’t have a chroot
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| 17:25 | and didn’t need to do any extra configuration (I use FAT clients)
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| 17:26 | <boj> You have that document ?
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| 17:29 | <julienfayad> here you go boj: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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| 17:33 | <boj> julienfayad:Thank you..Can we use ubuntu 16.0 ?
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| 17:35 | <julienfayad> you are welcome boj
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| 17:36 | I think there is no such version (16.0) it’s 16.04
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| 17:36 | if this is what you mean yeah that’s the version I’m using
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| 17:37 | <boj> julienfayad :Great and thank you..Lemme try and ping the forum if i need any assistance
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| 17:38 | <julienfayad> sure, good luck
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| 19:44 | <julienfayad> Hi there, alkisg sorry yesterday with my manipulation I managed to update kvno for one of my principal which led to a total inability to mount with kerberos
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| 19:44 | I fixed the pb with the help of the guys at #kerberos
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| 19:48 | <alkisg> julienfayad: any issues left? is it working fine in both the ltsp server and the clients now?
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| 19:49 | <julienfayad> actually I’m back to the initial issue
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| 19:49 | mounting is working on all stations BUT on the ltsp clients the mapping is not correct
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| 19:51 | <alkisg> How is the mounting done? Via an FSTAB_x line in lts.conf?
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| 19:51 | <julienfayad> nop not now
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| 19:51 | <julienfayad> it’s done with mount -t nfs -o sec=krb5 {share} {mountpoint} command
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| 19:52 | <alkisg> https://wiki.debian.org/NFS/Kerberos
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| 19:53 | Each host should have a copy of its own key inside /etc/krb5.keytab. For each host, locally run kadmin -p adminuser/admin (adminuser/admin is an admin principal) with the commands:
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| 19:53 | ...
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| 19:53 | Is this done for all ltsp clients?
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| 19:53 | <keyboardKat> Hello, I'm attempting to setup PiNet for the first time and it's going great except for 1 hickup: Trying to ssh into it doesn't work (using root as suggested on website)
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| 19:54 | <julienfayad> acutally nop, the keytab contains the principal of the ltsp server now
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| 19:55 | <alkisg> julienfayad: then I imagine that kerberos doesn't work for ltsp clients, so that explains the anonymous user
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| 19:55 | !raspberrypi | echo keyboardKat:
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| 19:55 | <ltsp> keyboardKat: raspberrypi: (#1) Ubuntu/LTSP on Pi 2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/RaspberryPi, or (#2) Debian/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://cascadia.debian.net/trenza/Documentation/raspberrypi-ltsp-howto/, or (#3) unofficial Ubuntu/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://pinet.org.uk/
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| 19:55 | <julienfayad> I’m not sure
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| 19:55 | because the mount actually works
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| 19:55 | <alkisg> keyboardKat: #3 is not supported here, but only with a mail to its author
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| 19:56 | <julienfayad> and if I chmod the share with 777 I can get access to the mount on the ltsp client
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| 19:56 | <keyboardKat> Okay I'll give #2 a shot
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| 19:56 | <alkisg> If you have pinet, you have an ubuntu server, don't you? why not #1 then?
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| 19:56 | old pis?
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| 19:57 | julienfayad: are you sure that kerberos is required for the mount command?
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| 19:57 | <keyboardKat> yes I have a ubuntu vm setup, hmm I'll look at #1 as well since I have the pinet generally working
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| 19:58 | <julienfayad> kerberos is not required and without kerberos it works well but I want to enable kerberos on some shares that needs extra security
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| 19:59 | <alkisg> (10:55:32 μμ) julienfayad: because the mount actually works ==> I was replying to that part, meaning that if the problem is in kerberos, the mount command might work, but not the authentication... dunno
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| 20:01 | <keyboardKat> Both of those links (#1 and #2) explain how to setup the LTSP environment. I kind of already have that with PiNet. The only missing piece is being able to SSH into it (I enabled it as specified here: http://pinet.org.uk/articles/advanced/ssh-information.html).
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| 20:02 | <julienfayad> actually when the auth on kerberos doesn’t work it usually issue a permission denied at mount
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| 20:03 | <keyboardKat> I'll email the author of pinet for some pointers
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| 20:03 | <alkisg> keyboardKat: they explain how to build a chroot with the stock ltsp procedure, without relying on other scripts that we don't know and we can't support
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| 20:03 | <julienfayad> alkisg here is one question from the #kerberos room if you mount with kerberos, the identity it sees is the kerberos principal. I don't know what the default mapping from principal name to uid is (I would have expected it to try the first component as a user name and use getpwnam(), but apparently this is not happening on the ltsp hosts?)
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| 20:05 | <alkisg> julienfayad: I haven't used kerberos... is there an ltsp part in this question?
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| 20:05 | <julienfayad> hehe I’m not sure
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| 20:14 | my doubts go toward a service that handles the mapping which isn’t running properly on ltsp clients…
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| 20:14 | but I have no idea which one is doint this work
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| 20:14 | all I can find is about idmapd
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| 20:14 | but this isn’t running on neither the ltsp server nor the clients (yet on the ltsp server mounting with kerberos works like a charm)
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| 20:23 | <alkisg> julienfayad: try to put this line in lts.conf: FSTAB_0="# dummy entry to disable deletion of nfs services"
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| 20:23 | This will prevent the ltsp clients from auto-removing nfs related services
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| 20:23 | <julienfayad> ohh I see what you are trying to do
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| 20:23 | <julienfayad> but I have on fstab line that does an NFS mount on a non kerberized share
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| 20:24 | <alkisg> But I imagine that you won't be able to make everything work correctly until you declare all ltsp clients to kerberos
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| 20:24 | Then the nfs services are not deleted (and you don't need that FSTAB line)
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| 20:24 | <julienfayad> well I just temporary cleaned the keytab file on that ltsp client
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| 20:24 | but it didn’t change much
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| 20:24 | <alkisg> Did you add the client to kerberos?
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| 20:24 | <julienfayad> I’ll try to reboot it and redo the cleaning jusr for the sake of it
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| 20:25 | <alkisg> Clearing is enough? Doesn't the client need to be added?
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| 20:25 | <julienfayad> by clearing I mean:
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| 20:25 | <alkisg> addpriv -randkey nfs/hostnamename@REALM ktadd nfs/clientname@REALM
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| 20:25 | <julienfayad> 1. remove the wrong keytab
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| 20:25 | 2. Add the client as a host principal in the KDC
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| 20:25 | 3. get a new keytab with the new principal
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| 20:26 | 4. make sure host is FQDN and IP are correctly binded in between the KDC and the ltps client
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| 20:32 | well even after a reboot this doesn’t work
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| 20:33 | and people at #kerberos seem to be a bit lost by the fact that it’s an ltsp client
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| 20:38 | <alkisg> When you're starting to clean up and reconfigure things, I don't know why it would matter that it is an ltsp client
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| 20:38 | It's just a live booted machine, it doesn't matter if you used usb, live cd, or the network... you should be able to dynamically reconfigure things
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| 20:39 | <julienfayad> well yeah I am able to reconfigure things
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| 20:39 | but this isn’t changin much
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| 20:39 | still same behavior, able to mount but wrong mapping
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| 20:39 | and since the mapping works well when I mount a share that isn’t kerberized
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| 20:40 | this means that my uid/gid mapping between server and client are all correct (which makes sense given I use ldap)
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| 20:40 | but when it’s through kerberos that fails
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| 20:40 | <alkisg> It sounds like misconfigured kerberos to me
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| 20:40 | (to the client)
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| 20:41 | But I haven't used kerberos, so I can't comment much there..
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| 20:41 | <julienfayad> as if kerberos is trying to use a service that it can’t find and thus maps uid to nobody and gid to 4294967294
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| 20:41 | well from my little experience with kerberos
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| 20:41 | when something is misconfigured
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| 20:41 | the whol thing fails
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| 20:41 | so in the case of an nfs mount
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| 20:41 | the whole mount would fail
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| 20:41 | not just the mapping
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| 20:42 | but nobody at the kerberos room seems to know how is the mapping happening when idmapd isn’t used
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| 20:44 | my basic understanding is that since uid and gid are the same on the server and the client I shouldn’t need idmapd
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| 20:44 | that’s why it works out of the box on the ltsp server
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| 20:44 | but why it doesn’t work on the ltsp clients is what confuses me
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| 20:45 | I’m making a last tentative, if that doesn’t work I’ll get back at it tomorrow (since #kerberos went suddenly silent)
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| 20:47 | by the way, off the kerberos topic, do you have an idea of what could cause this undesired behavior: I created two folders /media/shared_all and /media/shared_marketing in the ltps server
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| 20:47 | I rebuilt the image
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| 20:47 | the /media/shared_all shows but the /media/shared_makreting doesn’t
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| 20:47 | any idea why ?
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| 20:50 | OMG I made it work!
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| 20:50 | and indeed your intuition was correct
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| 20:53 | rechecking all configs on the client and make sure all is correct after a fresh reboot and before the first mount tentative will make it work
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| 20:53 | if you miss one detail
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| 20:53 | issue a mount with a wrong value
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| 20:53 | even if you fix it and remount that won’t make it (a full reboot is necessary)
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| 21:07 | <alkisg> Nice :)
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| 21:07 | <julienfayad> yeah partially nice
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| 21:07 | the mapping shows correctly
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| 21:07 | <alkisg> The /media folder is not included, check /etc/ltsp/ltsp-update-image.excludes
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| 21:08 | <julienfayad> but I’m getting a permission denied when trying to access the share with a user that has belongs to the correct gid
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| 21:09 | I’ll check it but what is weird is one folder got picked up but not the other one...
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| 21:10 | * alkisg waves, 'night all... | |
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