IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 16 December 2010 (all times are UTC)
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| 00:49 | <muppis> Anyone familiar with fat clients?
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| 00:49 | Is login done same way as in thin?
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| 01:29 | <sep> muppis, no.. thin uses ldp. diskless workstations are just workstations. they use kdm or gdm or whatever you install afaik
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| 01:29 | ldm
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| 01:30 | <muppis> sep, thanks. That then doesn't solve the problem what customer claims to got.
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| 01:44 | <johnny> they use ldm..
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| 01:44 | altho i never see it, since i use autologin
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| 01:54 | <alkisg> sep, fat clients are a variant of ltsp
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| 01:54 | It's not a different implementation...
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| 01:54 | muppis, yes, they use ldm, but after they login to the server, the session is local to the networked nbd/nfs disk
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| 01:54 | !fatclients
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| 01:54 | <ltspbot> alkisg: "fatclients" :: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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| 01:56 | <sep> alkisg, _my_ fat clients that i run via ltsp framework use kdm. but it have been upgraded since etch.. so i guess things may have changed
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| 01:56 | <muppis> alkisg, that's what I was looking for. Thanks.
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| 01:58 | <alkisg> Sure there are many implementations of fat and thin clients, I was just talking about the ltsp implementation
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| 02:05 | <sep> think i need to recreate one for scratch. perhaps there are other changes i could benefit from .
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| 10:46 | <garymc> Hi Peeps im looking at upgrading my servers so I can use Ubuntu Ltsp 64bit. Is there much difference from the 32bit version i currently use? and is it worht doing?
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| 10:46 | *worth
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| 10:56 | <alkisg> garymc: not really. If you have more than 3 Gb of RAM, just install the -pae kernel to access it all.
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| 10:56 | <garymc> ive got 4gb ram
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| 10:56 | im already running a stable version so should I just leave it be?
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| 10:57 | <alkisg> What do you mean stable version?
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| 10:57 | Which kernel are you using?
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| 10:57 | uname -a
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| 10:57 | (or uname -r)
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| 11:01 | <garymc> sorry not stable but works
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| 11:03 | <alkisg> Which kernel are you using? Run `uname -r` in a terminal.
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| 11:04 | <garymc> terminal has disapeared from my admin section
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| 11:05 | <alkisg> :) try alt+f2 and xterm in there
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| 11:05 | <garymc> whoops found it
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| 11:05 | 2.6.32-26-generic
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| 11:06 | <alkisg> You can install linux-image-generic-pae to access that additional 1 Gb if you want
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| 11:08 | E.g. I have the -pae kernel and `free` tells me total=4117336 (=4 Gb), what does `free` tell you?
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| 11:08 | <garymc> what you mean additional 1gb?
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| 11:09 | 2389124
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| 11:09 | ahh total = 3937760
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| 11:10 | <alkisg> Ah you don't have much reserved address space for videoram then, leave it as it is
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| 11:31 | <garymc> OK
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| 11:31 | ok
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| 11:31 | :)
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| 11:36 | <_UsUrPeR_> ok all
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| 11:37 | I am having a video issue, and would like a little help diagnosing
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| 11:38 | I just installed the latest Intel drivers from intellinuxgraphics.org
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| 11:38 | on my client CHROOT
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| 11:39 | according to the xorg.?.log, it shows that the client is using the drivers
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| 11:39 | which is great
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| 11:39 | unfortunately, the LDM is not appearing. Instead, I see a blank screen with my ouse cursor on it
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| 11:39 | I am able to move the mouse too
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| 11:39 | just no login screen
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| 12:08 | <alkisg> _UsUrPeR_: just out of curiosity, why did you install the drivers from the site instead of from some repository?
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| 12:08 | (or why didn't you just keep the stock drivers?)
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| 12:08 | <_UsUrPeR_> alkisg: This is me researching the problem a customer was having with a DVI > VGA adapter being used on one of our models
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| 12:09 | I was hoping that the genuine Intel drivers may have better results
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| 12:09 | <alkisg> I see
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| 12:09 | <_UsUrPeR_> I know in Windows, if I am using a DVI>VGA adapter, the monitor is detected and works
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| 12:09 | however, using the ubuntu Intel drivers, it does not "see" the DVI output in use
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| 12:09 | <alkisg> So you need to configure it manually with xrandr to make it see it?
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| 12:10 | <_UsUrPeR_> that remains to be seen.
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| 12:10 | <alkisg> So with an ubuntu live usb, you don't get any screen output at all?
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| 12:10 | <_UsUrPeR_> that's a good question, and not something I have attempted
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| 12:10 | komunista has joined #ltsp | |
| 12:10 | <_UsUrPeR_> if it DOES work with the live CD, what does that mean for me?
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| 12:11 | <alkisg> That something in ltsp makes it break?
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| 12:11 | <komunista> alkisg: I taked look to memory on my clients today
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| 12:11 | pupils was using FF and OOo Impress
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| 12:12 | and no more than 80 MB RAM was used on clients
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| 12:12 | <alkisg> komunista: nice, but it depends on what sites they visit
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| 12:12 | I've seen 1 site only that can crash firefox because it uses > 500 mb locally, even if the firefox runs on the server
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| 12:12 | <komunista> I tried google images for you
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| 12:12 | here is max klient:
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| 12:12 | <alkisg> And still just 80?
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| 12:13 | <komunista> total used free shared buffers cached
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| 12:13 | Mem: 185 165 20 0 31 54
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| 12:13 | -/+ buffers/cache: 79 106
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| 12:13 | Swap: 0 0 0
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| 12:13 | alkisg: yes
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| 12:13 | but with tuned FF settings
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| 12:13 | <alkisg> That's not 80 thought
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| 12:13 | That's 165...
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| 12:14 | <komunista> no 165 is with buffers and cache
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| 12:14 | buffers and cache are simple to free
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| 12:14 | <alkisg> I think some memory of the buffers + cache must be counted too, as it's from the tmpfs / aufs
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| 12:14 | <_UsUrPeR_> alkisg: a better question: where does ldm log to on the client?
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| 12:14 | <alkisg> So that cannot be freed
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| 12:15 | komunista: what did xrestop show you?
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| 12:15 | _UsUrPeR_: /var/log/ldm.log
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| 12:15 | <komunista> I dont't try it
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| 12:16 | I can see, but next week only
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| 12:17 | I can power on my clients remotely now, but can't login or run processes
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| 12:17 | <alkisg> komunista: I've done my own benchmarks, if you never get any crashes you don't need to worry about it. I'll be using 256 or 512 MB nbd swap from now on...
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| 12:18 | <komunista> alkisg: id don't wory, I only get some info for you
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| 12:18 | s/is/I/
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| 12:18 | eh :-(
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| 12:18 | alkisg: i don't wory, I only get some info for you
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| 12:18 | <alkisg> Thank you, but I don't want to trouble you with that, I did my own benchmarks...
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| 12:19 | <komunista> alkisg: no problem here :-)
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| 12:21 | <alkisg> komunista: e.g. if you write to the file system, you'll see increased buffers/cache etc, but you can't really discard that as that memory cannot be freed on the client
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| 12:22 | So if a client was to run "update-apt-xapian-index" every once in a while, RAM would be exchausted (that's why I disable cron on thin clients too)
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| 12:33 | <_UsUrPeR_> alkisg: ok, so if no ldm.log is being created, what does that mean?
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| 12:37 | <komunista> alkisg: I am not an expert on memory usage, but IMHO cache and buffers are using only free memory - not realy used
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| 12:38 | for example FS caching and similar
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| 12:39 | <robehend1> anyone used Italc on LTSP before? i saw the ubuntuwiki page, but seemd a bit dated
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| 12:40 | <_UsUrPeR_> robehend1: it's definitely difficult to set up. On top of that, it really adds a LOT of overhead when it's running
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| 12:40 | <robehend1> ah, pass on that then
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| 12:41 | teachers can walk around the chairs and look at screens isntead of playing lab god
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| 12:41 | <_UsUrPeR_> robehend1: and there is also some functionality that is not working in the last iteration I tried
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| 12:41 | <robehend1> at least until i can attach a flamethrower to it
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| 12:41 | <_UsUrPeR_> robehend1: aside from that, it's great ;)
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| 12:41 | yeah, that'll put the fear of god in 'em
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| 12:41 | <robehend1> wouldnt say no to it, some days
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| 12:42 | <_UsUrPeR_> seriously though, italc is great if you are running separate workstations
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| 12:42 | <robehend1> oh, agreed. we use it in our windows labs
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| 12:42 | <_UsUrPeR_> it becomes a confused mess when you are not.
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| 12:42 | because of the shared admin keys
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| 12:42 | <robehend1> though I still have had a heck of a time when I install italc-master on a linux box, and then try to use the client on windows
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| 12:42 | cuz of the keys
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| 12:42 | <_UsUrPeR_> specifically, if your admin/teacher wants to admin italc, they need to have the administration key on their client
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| 12:43 | unfortunately, that also disseminates the admin key to all other clients on the network
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| 12:43 | <robehend1> yep. and all my staff are on dedicated workstations
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| 12:43 | <_UsUrPeR_> so unless the teacher is willing to sit at the server itself and run italc, it makes matters difficult
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| 12:43 | <robehend1> ya, dont want that
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| 12:43 | <robehend1> though I keep hearing that Italc supports multiple masters.
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| 12:44 | <_UsUrPeR_> totally possible, but docs for linux are lacking, docks for ltsp are almost non-existant, and trial-and-error is awful :)
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| 12:44 | s/non-existand/really old
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| 12:44 | <robehend1> ha, agreed. I'll find time for it, one day
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| 12:44 | and then document it
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| 12:47 | <_UsUrPeR_> every time I have installed it, it has been different. It's like a rubik's cube of problems.
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| 12:48 | on top of that, you have to manage the IP addresses of all your clients in DHCP to assign them static IP addresses. Not a big deal for a couple, but larger installations can turn in to a pain.
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| 12:48 | <alkisg> robehend1: if you apt-get install italc-master, they keys are set up automatically in ltsp
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| 12:48 | because thin clients use the same keys as the server
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| 12:48 | <robehend1> alkisg: Agreed, but then my students can pull up the master and screw with eachother
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| 12:48 | <alkisg> So no setup is necessary, just a logoff/logon
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| 12:49 | robehend1: not unless they're in the admin group
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| 12:49 | Which they shouldn't be, they'd be sudoers then
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| 12:49 | <_UsUrPeR_> on top of THAT, the configuration for the master is created in .XML, and for some reason, you cannot save the configuration, so it needs to be manually created to denote classrooms, lab locations, and client names
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| 12:49 | <robehend1> alkisg: even if I'm using Likewise-open as my login,?
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| 12:49 | <alkisg> robehend1: the permissions for the keys specify that they can be read by users in the admin group
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| 12:49 | <robehend1> ah..
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| 12:49 | <_UsUrPeR_> at one point I had created a script which generates the .xml file from a dhcp.conf
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| 12:49 | <alkisg> It's just unix groups, nothing more
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| 12:50 | <robehend1> hmm. i may have to play with this again, over christmas
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| 12:50 | <_UsUrPeR_> huh, that makes sense
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| 12:50 | like I have said: it's been a while
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| 12:50 | <robehend1> and hopefully catch Gadi, ask him more about his new localapp integration thingy he was talking about the other day
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| 12:50 | <alkisg> _UsUrPeR_: there's no need for a script, autodetection works fine, and then you can just save the autogenerated file
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| 12:50 | <_UsUrPeR_> I think last I used it, we were running 9.04
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| 12:50 | <robehend1> thats the last time i touched it as well
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| 12:50 | <alkisg> The major problem in italc is that it crashes too often for me
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| 12:50 | I've been using it since 8.04, and abandoned it in 10.04
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| 12:50 | <robehend1> true. but when it runs, it does a great job
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| 12:51 | <_UsUrPeR_> alkisg: did you have any problems with refresh rate of clients affecting network overhead?
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| 12:51 | <robehend1> mostly since I havent found a viable alternative
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| 12:51 | <_UsUrPeR_> that was a problem for me
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| 12:51 | <alkisg> robehend1: yup, we had to develop our own, but it was totally worth it ;)
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| 12:51 | <komunista> have tried italc in ubuntu 9.04, but it slowdown clients for me
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| 12:51 | <robehend1> i set refresh to 10 seconds, myself. figured if it looked suspicious, just go to fullscreen
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| 12:51 | alkisg: GPl3 released, perchance? ;)
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| 12:51 | <alkisg> _UsUrPeR_: no, not really, but we only have a dozen clients each
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| 12:51 | robehend1: sure
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| 12:52 | But now it's tailored to our specific needs here, we'll rewrite it properly for general use for Ubuntu 12.04
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| 12:52 | <robehend1> works for me
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| 12:52 | 12.04 is what, 2012?
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| 12:52 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 12:52 | <robehend1> unless Canonical jumps the shark and goes to a rolling release, that is
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| 12:53 | <alkisg> In any case that's when we have free time to internationalize it + separate the greek settings in a different package :)
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| 12:53 | So even if we switch to debian, it'll still be in 2012 :D
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| 12:53 | <robehend1> ha, no problem. I'll keep an eye out, as i think that'd be a great addition to my setup ;)
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| 12:53 | <_UsUrPeR_> alkisg: about /var/log/ldm.log, if the file is not created on the client after boot, what does that mean?
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| 12:54 | <alkisg> That ldm didn't run?
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| 12:54 | Is ldm running?
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| 12:54 | (ps -ef etc)
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| 12:54 | <robehend1> you guys happen to know of any decent games that perform well over LTSP? I've got the basics on there, quadrapesell, soduko, etc, but kids are asking for more. I'd prefer to keep em off the flash games, for my bandwidths sake
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| 12:55 | <_UsUrPeR_> alkisg: no. X starts, but LDM does not run. I can see the mouse cursor, but no logon screen. ps -aux results in no ldm-looking programs running
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| 12:55 | <alkisg> robehend1: xmame usually works and has a lot of games
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| 12:55 | _UsUrPeR_: upload the result of ps -ef, maybe we can see in which script it stuck
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| 12:56 | <robehend1> alkisg: doesnt that play dumped MAME roms, with questionable legality, though?
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| 12:56 | <alkisg> Yup, some of them are free now though
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| 12:56 | <robehend1> hmm
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| 12:56 | <alkisg> The devs released them as freeware or opensource
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| 12:56 | <robehend1> now if i can find a good selectoin thats not "SHOOT EM IN DA FACE WITH UR RIFLE", i'll be set
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| 12:56 | <alkisg> And if you install that locally then no bandwidth is needed at all
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| 12:56 | <_UsUrPeR_> alkisg: k, this will take a minute to get to pastebin
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| 12:56 | <alkisg> _UsUrPeR_: apt-get install pastebinit
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| 12:56 | On the chroot (screen_02)
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| 12:57 | then pastebinit /var/log/ldm.log
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| 12:59 | <robehend1> alkisg: what was the server sizing you recommended for ltsp? I just had a deal cross my desk, and I'm wondering how it'd do
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| 12:59 | <alkisg> !docs
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| 12:59 | <ltspbot> alkisg: "docs" :: For the most current documentation, see https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ltsp/index.php?title=Ltsp_LtspDocumentationUpstream
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| 12:59 | <alkisg> It's on the docs, if I recall correctly it's 256 + (192*clients) RAM
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| 12:59 | <_UsUrPeR_> alkisg: here's the pastebin: http://pastebin.com/KUZLN4FS
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| 13:00 | <alkisg> _UsUrPeR_: can you also paste the output of getltscfg -a ?
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| 13:00 | <_UsUrPeR_> yaya
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| 13:00 | <alkisg> I see rdesktop and other stuff there... :)
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| 13:00 | <robehend1> 256 + (50*clients), though i'm assuming its a bit dated.
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| 13:00 | <alkisg> robehend1: where did you get that?
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| 13:00 | <robehend1> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ltsp/index.php?title=Ltsp_ServerSizing
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| 13:00 | <alkisg> I don't think that's on the docs link...
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| 13:01 | (i.e. the .pdf)
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| 13:01 | <robehend1> ah, der, i didnt notice the "this article is out of date" thing at the top
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| 13:01 | <alkisg> 256 + (192 * users) MB
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| 13:01 | <robehend1> hmm, alright
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| 13:01 | <alkisg> Page 19 of the manual
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| 13:02 | On the docs link
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| 13:02 | <robehend1> ah, I see it now. thanks
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| 13:03 | so you think a Dell server with 2x 3ghz Xeons with 8 GB of ram wouldnt be bad for say, 25 clients?
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| 13:03 | <_UsUrPeR_> alkisg: holy carp I found the problem I think. SCREEN_07="rdesktop"
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| 13:03 | * _UsUrPeR_ facepalms | |
| 13:03 | <robehend1> ;)
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| 13:03 | <_UsUrPeR_> yep. that was the problem
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| 13:03 | <alkisg> (09:00:29 PM) alkisg: I see rdesktop and other stuff there... :)
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| 13:03 | <robehend1> windows be sneaking up to screw with you, even when your on linux
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| 13:04 | <_UsUrPeR_> can't see the forest for the trees
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| 13:04 | and also windows
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| 13:04 | * _UsUrPeR_ goes to find a DVI>VGA adapter | |
| 13:05 | <robehend1> alkisg: so you think that server wouldnt be to bad?
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| 13:07 | <alkisg> robehend1: sure it'd be fine. What are your client specs, cpu/ram?
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| 13:18 | <alkisg> komunista: if you want, see an example: http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=128210
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| 13:19 | Running "dd" to create a 100mb file on the client tmpfs wastes the RAM, but it's only listed in "cached"
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| 13:19 | So when you measure the free client RAM, you can't really subtract that "cached" ram...
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| 13:20 | <komunista> alkisg: the cached are informations which are only cached in memory, but are not needed in it
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| 13:20 | <alkisg> komunista: it's a file we created. We need it:)
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| 13:21 | That info is not available anywhere else, it's on the tmpfs
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| 13:21 | <komunista> ah, sorry, tmpfs
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| 13:21 | now I understand you
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| 13:22 | <vagrantc> tmpfs only gets listed in cached ram?
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| 13:22 | <alkisg> So anyway one way to be sure is to keep opening tabs in google images or in other heavy pages until the client crashes :D
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| 13:23 | vagrantc: and in used ram
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| 13:26 | <alkisg> komunista: here's after trying to drop the caches with echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches: http://imagebin.org/128214
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| 13:27 | That 100mb didn't get dropped
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| 13:28 | * vagrantc had no idea something could be listed as both used and cached | |
| 13:28 | <komunista> hmm, and what about setting max size for tmpfs? what happens, when will be reached?
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| 13:29 | <vagrantc> same thing that happens when you run out of disk space on any filesystem, no?
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| 13:29 | <alkisg> Yup, subsequent requests fail
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| 13:29 | <komunista> vagrantc: some day agou I run one proces
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| 13:30 | this proces takes 9 GB memory (RAM + swap) and cca 80 % /tmp
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| 13:30 | but do not grows in /tmp to full...
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| 13:30 | <alkisg> That's on the server, right? No tmpfs there...
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| 13:30 | <komunista> I do not know, if it is by proces or by something other...
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| 13:30 | on my home computer
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| 13:31 | <alkisg> Right. Thin clients use tmpfs because the network disk is read-only
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| 13:31 | Your home computer can write to /tmp on the hard disk
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| 13:31 | So it doesn't need a tmpfs...
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| 13:32 | (running `mount` shows you the file systems in use)
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| 13:32 | <komunista> alkisg: I know about this
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| 13:32 | I ask, if there is some kernel manipulation about /tmp specialy
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| 13:33 | <alkisg> `$ mount|grep tmp` shows that no, there isn't.
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| 13:33 | But on a thin client, there is.
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| 13:33 | (a tmpfs)
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| 13:35 | <vagrantc> for a point of clarification, tmpfs was developed to actually be used for /tmp and so it's defaults are the same as you would expect /tmp, but other than that, there's no direct correlation
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| 13:35 | it's just another filesystem, like any other
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| 13:35 | <vagrantc> and /tmp is also just another directory, like any other ...
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| 13:36 | <komunista> yes, I have it on separate partition only
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| 13:38 | then setting the max for tmpfs can be contra productive...
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| 13:38 | <vagrantc> in other words... there's no special handling of /tmp other than what you configure to be special
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| 14:36 | <mgariepy> any of you have an idea what is the problem with udhcpc that spawn zombie process on thin client ?
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| 14:43 | <alkisg> (not using udhcp, but...) On lease update? Or before that?
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| 14:44 | <mgariepy> on lease update i guess i have on per 4 hours
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| 14:44 | <alkisg> And the zombie process is the udhcp that was started in the initramfs, or the script that udhcp calls to take care of the new lease?
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| 14:45 | I.e. is it one zombie per lease update, or just one zombie only?
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| 14:45 | <mgariepy> on per lease
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| 14:46 | root 359 0.0 0.0 2364 332 ? Ss 07:53 0:00 udhcpc -n -C -s /tmp/dhcp-script.sh -i eth0
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| 14:46 | root 3010 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? Z 10:53 0:00 \_ [udhcpc] <defunct>
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| 14:46 | root 3326 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? Z 13:53 0:00 \_ [udhcpc] <defunct>
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| 14:46 | it's 3 hours finally ;)
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| 14:55 | <mgariepy> stracing it now, i might have an answer soon
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| 15:11 | it's weird, when stracing the process, it doesn't spawn zombi ones anymore.
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