IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 2 January 2010 (all times are UTC)
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| 11:56 | <Ahmuck> with ltsp, is there a way to provide universal storage based on permissions? ie, is there a way to grant folder permissions to group "yearbook" and others to group "c++ programming" ?
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| 11:57 | <alkisg> You mean something different from chown directory :group?
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| 12:02 | <Ahmuck> so, a user "publishing" is created and a directory under that which is "articles"
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| 12:02 | however, if one user creates an article in that directory, others can read it, however they are unable to edit it
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| 12:02 | even though all users are in the group "publishing"
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| 12:04 | <alkisg> Ahmuck: read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setuid#setgid_on_directories
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| 12:09 | <Ahmuck> alkisg: thx, i'll peek at it and see if that fixes my problem
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| 12:09 | any suggestion on creating a group of group directories? seperate partition?
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| 12:09 | <alkisg> Ahmuck: basically, you need `chmod g+s directory`
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| 12:09 | <Ahmuck> currently "home" is seperate partition, however, this really should be out of home
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| 12:10 | <alkisg> What do you mean "a group of group directories"? Why not use /home/somedir for that?
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| 12:10 | <Ahmuck> for example, you'd have a group, "gradeschool", and a group middleschool, etc.
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| 12:10 | ie, local installations have a confusing install to /opt or /usr/local
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| 12:11 | is there a standard way of setting group directories on linux?
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| 12:11 | or just put them where ever one sees fit?
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| 12:11 | /home is really for "user" accounts isn't it
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| 12:12 | * alkisg doesn't have enough experience to justify any choice here... I'd just put them to /home/groupdirs, myself. | |
| 12:12 | <johnny> why?
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| 12:12 | you can set different umasks
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| 12:13 | but also like alkisg said
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| 12:13 | i'd say wherever you want for shared dirs.. /home is sometimes the bet choice, but maybe you want a seperate dir off of /
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| 12:14 | since you shouldn't have to be writing files to /opt or /usr
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| 12:15 | <Ahmuck> opt is for software iirc
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| 12:16 | what is the difference between opt and /usr/local ... it's been a while since i've looked at the lsb
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| 12:16 | er, not lsb
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| 12:16 | <alkisg> fhs
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| 12:16 | <johnny> gentoo puts binaries in /opt
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| 12:17 | binary only installs, like games, sun java, flashplayer, and the like
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| 12:17 | mostly non open sutff
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| 12:18 | <Ahmuck> lhfs ...
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| 12:18 | <johnny> my distro manages stuff in /opt
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| 12:18 | if i do src checkouts of upstream projects i use /usr/local
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| 12:19 | here's my linode
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| 12:19 | franklin ~ # ls /usr/local/src/
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| 12:19 | aerial ejabberd exmpp gloox-1.0 omnipresence prosody-modules sleekbot spectrum
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| 12:19 | bip-0.7.5.tar.gz ejabberd-modules gloox linode prosody punjab sleekxmpp tig
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| 12:20 | anything no distro managed goes to /usr/local
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| 12:20 | not*
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| 12:20 | <Ahmuck> ah, ok
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| 12:20 | it would seem though that any software would be chuncked into the same directory
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| 12:21 | outside of the base system
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| 12:21 | software packages, ie, firefox, etc.
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| 12:21 | <johnny> huh?
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| 12:21 | well.. that's why most distros just install software to /usr
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| 12:21 | lemme see what i got in /opt on fedora
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| 12:22 | only ltsp
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| 12:22 | <Ahmuck> alkisg: ur right it's fhs
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| 12:22 | * Ahmuck is looking at it again ... | |
| 12:27 | <Ahmuck> Programs to be invoked by users must be located in the directory /opt/<package>/bin
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| 12:28 | it looks like there is a /srv directory for "services", local data
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| 12:29 | <alkisg> Unfortunately not all of what's proposed by fhs actually applies to all distros...
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| 12:29 | <johnny> except nobody uses /srv
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| 12:29 | or few use /srv anyway..
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| 12:29 | most people still use /var for that
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| 12:30 | <Ahmuck> that doesn't make sense ... /usr/bin - most user invocked commands
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| 12:31 | how does one have a package in /opt and also in /usr/bin, the binary is moved to /usr/bin but the program resides in /opt?
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| 12:32 | <johnny> huh?
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| 12:32 | i have /opt/bin on gentoo
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| 12:32 | iirc
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| 12:33 | <Ahmuck> k, got it figured out. after looking there is no real good place to put group stuff. so i'm going to create a directory "/group" off of /
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| 12:33 | <johnny> that's what i suggested :)
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| 12:33 | <Ahmuck> and then specific groups from there
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| 12:33 | same as /user
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| 12:33 | where /user is specific to the user, /group is specific to the group
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| 12:33 | <johnny> why would you need /usr
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| 12:33 | err /user
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| 12:33 | <Ahmuck> er, sorry, /home
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| 12:34 | <johnny> GoboLinux eschews the whole lfs thing.. and goes for a more mac like approach
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| 12:34 | <Ahmuck> hrm, i'll may have to rethink this again
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| 12:34 | <johnny> /Users, /Applications .. that kinda thing
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| 12:34 | /me hates dirs that start with uppercase tho :(
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| 12:35 | <johnny> altho maybe i just need completion that is case insensitive
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| 12:37 | <Ahmuck> interesting
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| 12:37 | i like compartments
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| 12:38 | i'll have to peek at my home directory. iirc, it's only users
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| 12:38 | i'd hate to "clutter" it up
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| 12:38 | but i suppose i could hang a /group from there
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| 12:41 | thanks for the ear
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| 12:43 | <johnny> Ahmuck, well it's not like you can't change it later..
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| 12:43 | it's just easier to say.. backup /home and get everything :)
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| 12:43 | but as long as you remember /groups .. i'm sure you'll be fine
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| 12:44 | <Ahmuck> thanks for pointing out gobo ... i really like the file system layout and after reading it, i don't think one would have to worry about compatibility
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| 12:44 | think one could run ltsp on it?
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| 12:53 | <johnny> Ahmuck, no..
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| 12:53 | somebody would have to port it
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| 12:53 | i mean .. sure.. after the port
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| 12:53 | but.. i doubt you'll find the same package quality
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| 13:41 | * alkisg is looking into docbook and really wonders if it's still in use! http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=doc-book-users ==> 3 whole messages in 2009!!! | |
| 13:48 | <johnny> alkisg, do you know if that's the b st place to look?
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| 13:48 | <alkisg> I'm sure it *isn't* :)
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| 13:48 | But I can't find any new info, I'm only seeing tutorials etc from 2004...
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| 13:49 | ...that makes me wonder why it's so widespread in Gnome docs, KDE etc
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| 13:49 | <johnny> because everybody still uses it?
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| 13:49 | <alkisg> Right, but why?
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| 13:49 | <johnny> because it's the best?
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| 13:50 | <alkisg> OK, then why noone uses docbook based wikies?
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| 13:50 | <johnny> because it's too hard to write
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| 13:50 | also
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| 13:50 | wikis aren't books
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| 13:50 | you can transform wiki to docbook with some wikis i guess
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| 13:50 | wikis are meant for easy collaboration..
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| 13:51 | and nobody came up with a web wysiwyg for docbook i imagine
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| 13:51 | <alkisg> Sure. And software development needs that, and also technical docs development needs that
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| 13:51 | Anyway. How are people usually using docbook?
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| 13:51 | I.e. to write gnome documentation, they just use gedit?
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| 13:52 | <johnny> i don't know.. go ask em
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| 13:52 | <alkisg> And, how do they publish it to PDFs or to web sites?
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| 13:52 | <johnny> #gnome-hackers on gnome.org
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| 13:52 | err irc.gnome.org or irc.gimp.net
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| 13:52 | * alkisg thinks only sbalneav still uses docbook :P :D | |
| 13:52 | <johnny> pdfs.. doubtful..
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| 13:53 | <alkisg> That's how the ltsp manual is done
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| 13:53 | Docbook => pdf
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| 13:53 | <johnny> i hate pdfs
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| 13:53 | then again.. i don't really print documentation
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| 13:53 | i read it online
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| 13:53 | <alkisg> Why? It's the best form for printed docs.
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| 13:53 | Sure, for online docs it isn't suitable.
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| 13:53 | <johnny> html with a a proper print stylesheet is fine for 95% of users
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| 13:54 | it's rare that you actually need pdfs
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| 13:54 | that's a madeup number..
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| 13:54 | <alkisg> When you want to learn something new, you usually want a pdf, to sit on the couch and read for hours
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| 13:54 | <johnny> html with proper print stylehseet is good enough in most cases
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| 13:54 | not sure why you would need a pdf then
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| 13:54 | <alkisg> When you're looking for specific answers, google/html/online docs are your friends...
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| 13:55 | <johnny> i don't waste that much paper..
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| 13:55 | <alkisg> Because html isn't good with page layout
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| 13:55 | <johnny> it'scalled a print stylesheet..
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| 13:55 | so.. yes.. it canbe
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| 13:55 | <alkisg> Nope
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| 13:55 | It can't
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| 13:55 | <knipwim> happy newyear guys
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| 13:55 | <johnny> sure it can..
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| 13:55 | <alkisg> Nope :P :D
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| 13:55 | <johnny> maybe you've seenbad stylesheets
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| 13:55 | <alkisg> happy new year knipwim
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| 13:55 | johnny: well I've read the html specs
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| 13:55 | <johnny> perhaps there is also limitations in supporting ie6.. just like everywhere else..
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| 13:56 | you're reading the wrong specs then
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| 13:56 | css..
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| 13:56 | <alkisg> (css 1, 2, 3 etc)
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| 13:56 | <johnny> sure.. the 2 had some things that are good enough for docs i've printed
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| 13:56 | like where to break
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| 13:56 | <alkisg> They don't have enough for page layout, and they are not supported by ANY browser atm
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| 13:56 | <johnny> i am rearely concerned as i don't kill that many trees as you i guess
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| 13:56 | so my needs must be way more limited
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| 13:57 | <alkisg> No I also don't kill trees (or euros) :)
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| 13:57 | <johnny> for what is there to be good enough
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| 13:57 | huh?
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| 13:57 | you're printing pdfs?
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| 13:57 | <alkisg> I'm mostly reading things online, I don't print them
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| 13:57 | <johnny> that's what it sounded like
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| 13:58 | <knipwim> i sometimes print pdf's
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| 13:58 | <johnny> hmm.. pdfs take too long to open
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| 13:58 | <knipwim> reference cards and specs
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| 13:58 | <johnny> if you're not gonna print em
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| 13:58 | <alkisg> But that's just my personal preferences. I do know that most of the teachers wanted the PDF version of the manual I sent them than the online version
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| 13:58 | <johnny> also slows down the pc
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| 13:58 | web pages render much quicker than pdf
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| 13:58 | <alkisg> So it's not a personal matter. PDFs are needed...
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| 13:59 | That's not always true. Try to render a 50.000 line html page with tables etc...
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| 13:59 | <johnny> i hate docs only in pdf
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| 13:59 | seems fine for me.. i guess
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| 13:59 | <alkisg> For large documents, html is way slower than pdf
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| 13:59 | <johnny> as long as they aren't overloaded with unnecessary graphics (ie invisible pixels and the like)
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| 14:00 | <johnny> of course.. most docs that large allow you to page through
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| 14:00 | <knipwim> but the discussion was about docbook being a good source document format for either pdf or html? right?
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| 14:00 | <johnny> i just use the right and left arrow keys
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| 14:00 | sure
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| 14:00 | knipwim, about whether people use docbook actually
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| 14:00 | and why
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| 14:00 | <alkisg> and how :(
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| 14:01 | <johnny> alkisg, ask people who aren't here :)
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| 14:01 | and some other place than that forum
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| 14:01 | i opened up a docbook file. seemed easy enough
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| 14:01 | as long as i had the spec i guess
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| 14:01 | must be some editor for ya
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| 14:02 | <alkisg> There are lots of editors... but any docbook-related page I saw seemed dead for at least 4-5 years...
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| 14:02 | Either that, or they reached perfection :D
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| 14:03 | ...and don't change it or talk about it anymore :D
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| 14:03 | <knipwim> http://docs.oasis-open.org/docbook/specs/docbook-5.0-spec.html
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| 14:03 | from november 2009
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| 14:04 | <alkisg> I've seen that some weeks ago when I was looking again - but I don't think it's used yet
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| 14:05 | It's supposed to remove a lot of redudant tags etc, but it still doesn't tell me if I should use docbook :-/
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| 14:07 | <knipwim> it seems like a good choice
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| 14:07 | you can convert it to various other formats
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| 14:07 | <alkisg> I read that, but I only found some ancient and abandonder converters...
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| 14:07 | <moldy> i like pdfs, most web pages suck.
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| 14:07 | <knipwim> and it can also be interpreted 5 years from now
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| 14:08 | <moldy> for relatively simple stuff, consider using RST as source format
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| 14:08 | <alkisg> While e.g. if I write in openoffice I can also export to everything (including docbook), and it's maintained...
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| 14:08 | <knipwim> depending on your needs, you can write the xslt yourself
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| 14:11 | <alkisg> moldy: I've heard of RST a while back, did you use it for any of your projects?
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| 14:12 | <moldy> alkisg: i use it for various personal stuff
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| 14:12 | i also use it in tcm, but only a little
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| 14:12 | it's definitely good for "lightweight" documents
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| 14:13 | <alkisg> The problem with all these methods is that none is good for collaboration. No wiki uses those syntaxes...
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| 14:14 | <moldy> plone can do rst
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| 14:14 | <alkisg> And wiki => docbook or pdf converters also suck...
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| 14:15 | <moldy> true, there is no silver bullett, as far as i know
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| 14:17 | <moldy> -t
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| 15:07 | <petre> hello friends
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| 15:09 | I've got a problem that's not ltsp, but somewhat similar in nature that I thought some folks around here might have some suggestions for.
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| 15:10 | <Appiah> O_O
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| 15:10 | <petre> I'm netbooting a centos kernel and initrd, and then mounting an image file to be root.
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| 15:11 | But when I turn control over to init, via switch_root, it reboots the system.
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| 15:11 | I can't figure out why.
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| 15:12 | Using switch_root, I'm passing /bin/bash as the init right now, and that works okay.
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| 15:12 | But if I put /sbin/init in place of bash or 'exec /sbin/init', it reboots.
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| 15:13 | Any suggestions as to how to figure out what is triggering the reboot?
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| 15:13 | The kernel and initrd are loaded via gpxe, which is working as it should.
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| 15:14 | The goal is to ultimately load the root file system, contained in a single image file, from an http server.
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| 15:14 | which gpxe can do.
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| 15:14 | (Yes, I've asked about this on #etherboot)
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| 15:14 | <Appiah> is it instantly rebooting or is it being rebooted like if someone ran "reboot" ?
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| 15:15 | <petre> I'd say it's between 2-5 seconds from when I issue the command to where it reboots.
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| 15:16 | I just tried it again: about 5 seconds.
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| 15:17 | <alkisg> Some ideas: If you put an `echo` in the top of init, does it work? Or, if you put `break=top` and `debug` as kernel parameters? And, what happens if you put `init=/bin/bash` and then run init from inside bash?
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| 15:17 | <petre> it's as if I've hit the Reset button on the front of the computer; there's nothing going to the console indicating a reboot is coming
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| 15:18 | <Appiah> hmm
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| 15:18 | <petre> The init script within the initrd is working fine. It's just the last line that's trouble. ;-)
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| 15:18 | <Appiah> see anything in dmesg / syslog?
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| 15:19 | <petre> the last thing in dmesg is the output from the root image file being mounted successfully.
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| 15:20 | I've never tried debug as a kernel parameter; does that send more output to the console?
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| 15:20 | <alkisg> How is it mounted?
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| 15:21 | <petre> on a loopback device via losetup and then via switch_root, which is a busybox command
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| 15:22 | <alkisg> But isn't the root on an http server? (I probably missed something...)
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| 15:23 | <petre> syslog is pretty much worthless because it's only got info from when the root file system was dumped into a static image file
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| 15:23 | It's going to be, but my plan is to rsync it to a local copy and then mount that.
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| 15:24 | That way it will boot faster if there have been no changes to it.
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| 15:24 | <alkisg> So now you're using a local copy?
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| 15:24 | <petre> Correct.
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| 15:24 | <alkisg> And if you put `break=init` you can see its contents?
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| 15:24 | <petre> Only the kernel and initrd come from the web server.
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| 15:25 | Put 'break=init' in the init script in initrd?
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| 15:25 | <alkisg> No, as a kernel parameter...
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| 15:25 | <petre> I can try it. What does it do?
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| 15:25 | <alkisg> (/me is using Ubuntu, I don't know if that exist in centos...)
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| 15:26 | In Ubuntu, if you put that, init runs a shell after the root is mounted
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| 15:26 | So there you can inspect things...
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| 15:27 | <petre> well, I've already got a shell via switch_root
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| 15:27 | <alkisg> So you can see that root is mounted correctly?
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| 15:27 | <petre> yes
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| 15:27 | switch_root takes two params, the partition to make /, and then, typically, /sbin/init.
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| 15:28 | In my case, that causes a reboot. But I can pub /bin/bash in place of /sbin/init
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| 15:28 | and then I 'land' at a prompt.
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| 15:28 | But if I then call init via exec, e.g. 'exec /sbin/init', it reboots
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| 15:32 | <alkisg> Would strace work at this point?
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| 15:32 | <petre> I'll try anything. How does strace work?
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| 15:32 | Adding 'debug' as a kernel parameter didn't do anything, btw
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| 15:33 | didn't give me any more feedback
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| 15:34 | * petre goes to look for an strace man page | |
| 15:34 | <alkisg> E.g. `exec strace /sbin/init`...
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| 15:34 | But maybe it's too early for strace to work, I don't know...
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| 15:35 | <petre> yeah, it would need to be contained in busybox, which it doesn't appear to be
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| 15:35 | busybox is all I've got to work with at this stage in the boot process.
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| 15:35 | <alkisg> No I meant after "But I can pub /bin/bash in place of /sbin/init"
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| 15:36 | I.e. after switch_root is called...
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| 15:36 | <petre> ?
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| 15:36 | <alkisg> (11:28:25 μμ) petre: In my case, that causes a reboot. But I can pub /bin/bash in place of /sbin/init
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| 15:36 | (11:28:33 μμ) petre: and then I 'land' at a prompt.
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| 15:36 | (11:28:55 μμ) petre: But if I then call init via exec, e.g. 'exec /sbin/init', it reboots
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| 15:37 | At that point, I meant instead of running 'exec /sbin/init', to run strace...
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| 15:37 | <petre> Oh wait, I think I see what you're saying.
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| 15:37 | Since / is already mounted, I could have strace in there, doesn't have to come from busybox
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| 15:38 | <alkisg> Right, I just don't know if it'll work
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| 15:38 | (unfortunately at weekends most of the gurus are away :D)
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| 15:38 | <petre> it's worth a shot
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| 15:47 | <petre> well, at least I get a kernel panic now with strace, so that may be progress. :-)
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| 15:50 | now I'm getting 'timeout opening/writing control channel /dev/initctl', which I was getting earlier when I tried to call init without using exec.
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| 15:51 | I thought it was because init needs to be pid 1, but since the shell is already pid 1, it was complaining, until I started using exec.
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| 22:23 | <sbalneav> Evening all
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| 22:24 | * vagrantc waves | |
| 22:24 | <sbalneav> Hey hey, just us grumpy guys here :)
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| 22:25 | * vagrantc grumps | |
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| 23:24 | * stgraber waves after an hour of DB/PHP work ;) | |
| 23:24 | <stgraber> that ORM we're using for the new ltsp-cluster backend is awesome but takes some getting used to (was my first try with indexes + relations + constraints)
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| 23:25 | took a while but I finally managed to have PHP objects nicely mapped to the DB and can now add new servers to the cluster pool, add/remove them from groups, ... without a line of SQL ;)
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| 23:25 | cyberorg has quit IRC | |
| 23:26 | <stgraber> just need to actually write the functions using that now and write the AJAXy part of it + XML-RPC functions
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| 23:26 | so application servers will automatically register and update their status every 30s, then the web UI will allow to check the status of the pool, create groups and drag/drop server in these groups
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| 23:27 | then you simply ask for a server from the group you want and you get the less loaded one (or something else depending on the algorithm) and you put that as LDM_SERVER or RDP_SERVER
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| 23:27 | basically what we already had but a lot more flexible and shiny ;)
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| 23:27 | <sbalneav> Hey stgraber
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| 23:27 | Cool
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