IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 17 July 2011 (all times are UTC)
| 00:16 | <andygraybeals> nice
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| 08:42 | <muppis> Trying to get client booting from local hdd so I can use local wlan for connection. Becuse of local hdd, only benefit from this local swap (if needed) and more flexible location of hw.
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| 09:25 | <Hyperbyte> How was the beach? :-)
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| 09:26 | <alkisg> Hey :) It still is great - I'm at the hotel atm
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| 09:27 | <Hyperbyte> Ahh
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| 09:27 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: I think those irclogs messages should have gray background color too: "alkisg is now known as alkisg_away"
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| 09:28 | <Hyperbyte> Yeah, I saw that too.
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| 09:28 | <alkisg> Other than that they're very readable
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| 09:29 | muppis: why not just put your wifi driver + connection info to a local initrd, and just use that?
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| 09:32 | Btw if you only have a couple of clients, and do local hard disk installations, I wonder why you're still using LTSP... :D
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| 09:58 | <anti_system> hey guys :)
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| 10:00 | <Hyperbyte> Hi!
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| 10:03 | <anti_system> :)
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| 10:04 | <anti_system> hyperbyte could you help me with ltsp?
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| 10:04 | :)
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| 10:05 | alkisg has joined IRC (alkisg!~alkisg@ubuntu/member/alkisg) | |
| 10:05 | <Hyperbyte> !ask | echo anti_system
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| 10:05 | <ltsp> anti_system ask: Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least 15 minutes after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel..
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| 10:06 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, I updated the IRC logs for you (nickchange stuff)
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| 10:06 | I also made it indexable by Google last night
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| 10:06 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: nickchange stuff?
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| 10:07 | I now see them in bold instead for gray background..?
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| 10:07 | <Hyperbyte> 11:27 <alkisg> Hyperbyte: I think those irclogs messages should have gray background color too: "alkisg is now known as alkisg_away"
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| 10:07 | Then you need to refresh properly, so _style.css also gets updated. :)
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| 10:07 | <alkisg> Haha
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| 10:07 | Yup
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| 10:07 | Yeah much better now. irclogs rock :D
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| 10:08 | <Hyperbyte> :)
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| 10:08 | <anti_system> lol
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| 10:08 | i cant find a simply wiki or something to make ltsp working
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| 10:08 | <alkisg> which distro/version are you using?
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| 10:09 | <Hyperbyte> anti_system, there is lots of documentation. What are you looking for exactly? Be specific. :)
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| 10:09 | <anti_system> in the start cant boot or get a message error on thin client
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| 10:09 | now i have
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| 10:09 | file not found / tftp error - file not found
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| 10:09 | <muppis> alkisg, I'm doing it just for curiosity. :)
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| 10:10 | <anti_system> i think it's not a dhcp problem
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| 10:10 | <Hyperbyte> !tftp | echo anti_system
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| 10:10 | <ltsp> anti_system tftp: Here's a page to help you troubleshoot TFTP problems in Ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/Troubleshooting/TFTP.
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| 10:11 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: he should first tell us his distro though, no?
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| 10:11 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, it would help, yes. :) Although the page in that wiki can apply to every distro, except the commands vary a little bit
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| 10:12 | <alkisg> Really? I thought that page was incredibly distro-specific.. :D
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| 10:12 | <anti_system> yes
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| 10:12 | tell me one thing
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| 10:12 | the pxe is to boot the machine right?
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| 10:12 | * alkisg is playing with pam_exec... very handy for guest logins or cleaning up, both on login and logout | |
| 10:13 | <Hyperbyte> anti_system: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
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| 10:13 | <anti_system> but i want diskless clients
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| 10:13 | need nfs too?
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| 10:14 | <alkisg> It depends on the distribution you're using
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| 10:14 | If you decide to tell us which one you're using, we might be able to help more
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| 10:16 | <Hyperbyte> anti_system, are you using Ubuntu?
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| 10:16 | <alkisg> Hmmm yet another one that has me on his ignore list... I wonder what's wrong with me :)
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| 10:17 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, yeah it's really too bad. I mean you want to help this person with LTSP, but you need some basic information about their installation to help them best.
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| 10:18 | * Hyperbyte pokes anti_system | |
| 10:18 | <Hyperbyte> ;-)
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| 10:19 | <muppis> alkisg, I had to admit, I gave up about LTSP -based HTPC due booting times as I don't have wired connection for it.
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| 10:19 | <alkisg> muppis: well with wireless connection + local hard disks + only a couple of clients, all the benefits of LTSP are negated
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| 10:19 | So it even makes things harder instead of easier
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| 10:22 | <muppis> alkisg, it depends. At work we have made a script which helps keep clients up to date.
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| 10:35 | <anti_system> hyperbyte im using edubuntu
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| 10:35 | and came preconfigured
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| 10:35 | <muppis> It check new scriptfiles from server and runs them during boot, so basically we can run what ever need to run on client to keep it in shape.
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| 10:36 | <Hyperbyte> anti_system, then the TFTP troubleshooting page I gave you earlier should have everything you need.
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| 10:37 | <anti_system> yup
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| 10:37 | hyperbyte
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| 10:37 | if i have only pxe boot
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| 10:37 | in diskless thin clients
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| 10:38 | need nfs-server too?
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| 10:39 | <Hyperbyte> anti_system, what makes you think that? LTSP for Edubuntu uses NBD, not NFS.
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| 10:40 | <anti_system> lololol
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| 10:40 | maybe i'm reading the wrong tuturials
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| 10:40 | :P
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| 10:40 | <Hyperbyte> Which tutorials are you reading?
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| 10:40 | (could you give me a link?)
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| 10:40 | <anti_system> in google ltsp on edubuntu
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| 10:41 | and give-me wikis for ubuntu
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| 10:41 | but not the same ways to config
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| 10:43 | <Hyperbyte> With Edubuntu you should not need any guide really. If you install the OS, and select LTSP server during installation, everything should work out of the box I believe.
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| 10:43 | Or did you upgrade from a previous version?
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| 10:43 | <anti_system> clean install
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| 10:43 | and i have a wlan0 to have internet
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| 10:43 | and eth0 for ltsp
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| 10:46 | <Hyperbyte> Okay, so how far did you come with the TFTP troubleshooting page?
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| 10:47 | <anti_system> yes
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| 10:47 | <Hyperbyte> LTSP works now?
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| 10:49 | <anti_system> no
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| 10:50 | the tftp
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| 10:50 | package is tftpd hpa?
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| 10:53 | <anti_system> hyperbyte
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| 10:54 | maybe i make a worg config files or other packages
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| 10:54 | not more easy make a clean install and config from the begin
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| 10:54 | ?
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| 11:03 | <Hyperbyte> anti_system, did it work right after you installed it?
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| 11:03 | <anti_system> no never
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| 11:04 | for clean install what have to make to boot thin clients from server/cluster?
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| 11:04 | <Hyperbyte> Okay. You client says on startup TFTP file not found?
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| 11:04 | <anti_system> yes
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| 11:06 | <Hyperbyte> Post your /etc/default/tftpd-hpa file on pastebin
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| 11:06 | <anti_system> and the server and client are connected via utp crossover
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| 11:09 | http://pastebin.com/L2Nwtwer
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| 11:10 | <Hyperbyte> Does /var/lib/tftpboot/ exist on your system?
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| 11:13 | <anti_system> yes
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| 11:13 | with ltsp dir
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| 11:13 | <Hyperbyte> Okay. Pastebin ls -al /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/
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| 11:17 | <anti_system> http://pastebin.com/9qyCzBLd
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| 11:17 | all files there
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| 11:20 | <Hyperbyte> Okay... could you also show me /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf ?
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| 11:22 | <anti_system> http://pastebin.com/7isPQm99
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| 11:29 | <Hyperbyte> I think you sent me the wrong link?
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| 11:30 | <anti_system> no...i copy the wrong things :P
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| 11:36 | <anti_system> http://pastebin.com/mxaWyDni
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| 11:38 | <Hyperbyte> What Edubuntu version are you using?
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| 11:40 | <anti_system> 11.04 i think
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| 11:41 | <Hyperbyte> Did you modify /etc/default/dhcpd.conf ?
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| 11:41 | <anti_system> yes
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| 11:41 | <Hyperbyte> Then that's where you went wrong.
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| 11:41 | <anti_system> but go back to previus
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| 11:43 | i need a other nic too....wireless it too slow :S
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| 11:43 | <Hyperbyte> Base it on this one: http://pastebin.com/hgFnAVbw
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| 11:43 | <anti_system> another*
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| 11:43 | <Hyperbyte> Especially the /opt/ part in the path of the 'filename' statements
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| 11:44 | <anti_system> not
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| 11:45 | if i use ls
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| 11:45 | it lists every file i need
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| 11:45 | need special parameter for nic of the thin client?
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| 11:47 | <Hyperbyte> anti_system, the default configuration works. Don't mess with it.
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| 11:47 | What you have done to the filename statements is wrong.
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| 11:48 | <anti_system> ???
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| 11:48 | <Hyperbyte> TFTP has a root dir, which is specified in your tftpd config. TFTP_DIRECTORY="/var/lib/tftpboot"
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| 11:48 | So the 'filename' statements, pointing to TFTP files, in your dhcpd.conf are relative to that path.
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| 11:48 | <anti_system> it's default config
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| 11:48 | so what i have to change
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| 11:48 | dhcpd ou tftpd?
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| 11:49 | <Hyperbyte> So they become /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.0
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| 11:49 | Did you read what I wrote?
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| 11:49 | 13:41 <Hyperbyte> Did you modify /etc/default/dhcpd.conf ?
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| 11:49 | 13:41 <Hyperbyte> Then that's where you went wrong.
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| 11:49 | 13:43 <Hyperbyte> Base it on this one: http://pastebin.com/hgFnAVbw
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| 11:49 | 13:43 <Hyperbyte> Especially the /opt/ part in the path of the 'filename' statements
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| 11:49 | The 'filename' statements in the config I pasted are correct for 11.04
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| 11:49 | You shouldn't change them.
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| 11:51 | <anti_system> ok if my browser can open the page
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| 11:52 | the path are wrong in my default config
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| 11:52 | ......
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| 11:54 | <anti_system> restart dhcpd?
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| 11:54 | <Hyperbyte> Your config is not the default
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| 11:54 | service isc-dhcp-server restart
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| 11:56 | <anti_system> work :)
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| 11:57 | <Hyperbyte> :)
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| 12:01 | <anti_system> now login problems
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| 12:01 | lol
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| 12:02 | <Hyperbyte> Oh?
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| 12:03 | <anti_system> lol no stress
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| 12:04 | the ltsp create a lots of users
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| 12:04 | and i only need 1 or 2
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| 12:05 | <Hyperbyte> Lots of users? LTSP doesn't create any users
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| 12:07 | <anti_system> i have 90
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| 12:07 | or more
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| 12:10 | <Hyperbyte> How did that happen?
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| 12:10 | <anti_system> dont know
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| 12:11 | <Hyperbyte> What are the names of the accounts?
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| 12:14 | <anti_system> ltsp1 to *
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| 12:15 | <Hyperbyte> Never heard of that.
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| 12:17 | <anti_system> now i need to create user acount
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| 12:17 | not even in guest it starts
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| 12:19 | hyperbyte i can boot windows with ltsp? :P
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| 12:26 | <Hyperbyte> anti_system, boot Windows with LTSP? Why?
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| 12:26 | You could use LTSP to start an rdesktop session, if that's what you mean.
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| 12:27 | <anti_system> yup
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| 12:27 | <Hyperbyte> You want both Windows and Linux on one client?
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| 12:29 | <anti_system> yup
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| 12:29 | but maybe it's hardcore
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| 12:33 | <Hyperbyte> No, it's easy
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| 12:34 | Can I ask why you want that though? Maybe there's better solutions.
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| 12:34 | Do you have certain Windows applications that you need, or are some people going to use Windows, some Linux?
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| 12:35 | <anti_system> yes
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| 12:35 | wine maybe?
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| 12:36 | <Hyperbyte> Yes to which? Yes, you have Windows applications you need, or yes, some people will only be using Windows and not Linux?
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| 12:39 | I didn't quite understand you there...
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| 12:41 | <anti_system> no stress, just to know.....
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| 12:43 | <Hyperbyte> ?
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| 12:43 | What are you talking about? :-)
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| 12:46 | <anti_system> use win in ltsp
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| 12:53 | <Hyperbyte> You could run rdesktop on a seperate X screen, you could also run 'rdesktop' after you login to Gnome
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| 12:53 | Or you could, as you said, use wine...
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| 12:54 | <anti_system> yup
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| 13:45 | <vlt> Hello. I have an LTSP system running on Ubuntu 10.04. When I create a vncserver session on the server and connect to it via vncviewer everything runs fine. But when I use the native LTSP way (gdm login from the client, M_DIRECTX=yes) many things are really slow. What can I do to let the users work (nearly) as fast as when connected via vnc?
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| 14:18 | <Hyperbyte> The correct lts.conf option is LDM_DIRECTX=True
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| 14:18 | !lts.conf
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| 14:18 | <ltsp> Hyperbyte: lts.conf: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf.
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| 14:18 | <Hyperbyte> And are you sure you mean 'gdm login from the client'? Not ldm?
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| 14:19 | Because LDM is the default LTSP login manager
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| 15:10 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: In my lts.conf it's actually "LDM_DIRECTX=yes" (pasted partially only), I can see (most) traffic on the x11 ports 6000+. And you're right: It's LDM on the client. So how to make it faster. Can I take eway some load from the client's X server?
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| 15:36 | <Hyperbyte> vlt, do you know what the bottleneck is? Is it the network, the server or the client?
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| 15:40 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: I think it's the client. Network load is low and the server (6 core, 24 GB RAM) should handle this. At least everything is fast when run on the server only in a vnc session.
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| 15:41 | Maybe the concept of LTSP puts too much load on the clients.
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| 15:41 | <Hyperbyte> What hardware specs?
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| 15:42 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: HP T57xx series clients, 1 GHz, 512 MB RAM.
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| 15:43 | <Hyperbyte> More than enough to handle LTSP
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| 15:43 | Do you know how to get a local xterm on the clients?
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| 15:44 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: My users get really envy when they look on my screen and see OpenOffice running fluently. What they don't know: My client has a 400 MHz CPU and 64 MB RAM. But I use vnc.
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| 15:44 | Hyperbyte: I could ssh in.
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| 15:44 | Hyperbyte: Or do I need "xterm"?
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| 15:47 | <Hyperbyte> !localxterm | echo vlt
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| 15:47 | <ltsp> vlt localxterm: while sitting on a thin client, open a gnome terminal. In that, run: ltsp-localapps xterm. An xterm will open. That xterm runs locally, so any commands you enter there are executed directly on the client..
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| 15:48 | <Hyperbyte> Then you could run 'ps aux' and 'top' to monitor processes, see if something is eating up CPU or RAM by any chance.
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| 15:48 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: I mean do I really have to sit on a client and need a local xterm or could I just use ssh?
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| 15:49 | Hyperbyte: On top of top is always xorg.
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| 15:50 | Hyperbyte: And when the users complain it's running near 99 %.
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| 15:50 | <Hyperbyte> LTSP clients don't have sshd running
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| 15:51 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: Mine do.
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| 15:51 | <Hyperbyte> Why?
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| 15:51 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: It's the only way I found to do remote support on their screens (using x11vnc).
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| 15:52 | <Hyperbyte> !xauthority | echo vlt
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| 15:52 | <ltsp> vlt xauthority: to access the client X session from a local root shell, try: export $(tr '.
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| 15:52 | <Hyperbyte> Oh
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| 15:52 | The bot doesn't like that string. :\
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| 15:52 | to access the client X session from a local root shell, try: eval $(tr '\0' '\n' < /proc/$(pidof -s ldm gdm-simple-greeter gnome-session | cut -d' ' -f1)/environ | egrep '^DISPLAY=|^XAUTHORITY=') && export DISPLAY XAUTHORITY
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| 15:52 | Anyway...
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| 15:52 | You could ssh to the clients anyways, yeah..
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| 15:53 | Though I recommend just using a local xterm and not running sshd
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| 15:53 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: Why not?
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| 15:53 | <Hyperbyte> Resources.
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| 15:54 | !xauthority
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| 15:54 | <ltsp> Hyperbyte: xauthority: (#1) to access the client X session from a local root shell, try: export $(tr ', or (#2) To access the client X session from a local root shell, try: eval $(tr '.
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| 15:54 | <Hyperbyte> :(
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| 15:54 | !forget xauthority *
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| 15:54 | <ltsp> Hyperbyte: The operation succeeded.
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| 15:55 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: sshd consumes about 2 MB of RAM only. I don't experience any performance loss on my client.
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| 15:56 | <Hyperbyte> Yeah, but it's a bit redundant when you have better ways of taking over the desktop.
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| 15:56 | But it's your party man. :)
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| 15:56 | Anything show up as using a lot of resources in top or ps aux?
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| 15:57 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: Whenever the users complain xorg is running near 99 %.
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| 15:57 | <Hyperbyte> Ah
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| 15:59 | So it doesn't always happen?
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| 16:00 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: Opening an OpenOffice document, opening a website with large images ...
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| 16:01 | <Hyperbyte> Sounds java related.
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| 16:01 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: Sometimes, when viewing a large image, for example, or a large mail the client's RAM fills up. I'll never understand why on earth the client needs hundreds of megabytes of RAM to show an image which renders as 50x50 px on his screen.
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| 16:01 | <Hyperbyte> You don't run these things as localapps?
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| 16:02 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: Java related? Is Java runnnig on the client?
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| 16:02 | Hyperbyte: No localapps so far.
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| 16:03 | Hyperbyte: Another example: Printing (yes, printing! wtf!) an OpenOffice document with larger images fills up client's (yes, client's!) RAM.
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| 16:04 | <Hyperbyte> No, but OpenOffice is a java app, so are Firefox and Thunderbird (assuming those are your client and browser)
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| 16:04 | Hm...
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| 16:05 | Could you pastebin the output of 'xrandr' on one of the clients?
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| 16:05 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: Yes firefox. I haven't seen the large mail causing client's RAM usage problem on thunderbird yet, but it's definitely there when using kmail.
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| 16:06 | Hyperbyte: When Java is not running on the client, how can this be a Java problem when everything runs just fine on the very same server when run in a vncserver session?
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| 16:06 | I'll boot one client and get xrandr's output ...
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| 16:07 | <Hyperbyte> vlt, java handles remote X a little different I think. I'm not sure exactly how, but I've had problems with java apps at one time too.
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| 16:08 | <- definitely not an expert in these things. :)
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| 16:08 | <vlt> Hyperbyte: That's what I say: There's sometimes too much load put on the client.
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| 16:14 | Hyperbyte: xrandr on a client: http://pastebin.com/LgU0nEhn
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| 16:35 | <Hyperbyte> Looks normal...
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| 16:36 | You need someone with more LTSP knowledge than me. :)
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| 16:40 | <dgroos> vlt: I've got quite a bit LESS knowledge 'bout LTSP but I can share that when I first started using thin clients on Hardy a few years back...
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| 16:41 | My system was brought to a stand-still when a few clients used CmapTools, a java-based app.
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| 16:42 | When I moved to Jaunty with it's easy localapp set up I tried that and all my problems with CmapTools went away.
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| 16:42 | But those were problems with the server being overloaded not the clients.
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| 16:43 | Anyway, you might want to try localapps as an experiment.
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| 16:43 | Good luck.
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| 16:50 | <vlt> dgroos: My first LTSP setup was on dapper, then hardy (still used by most of my users) and now lucid. With lucid we switched from KDE to Gnome so all our kmail problems are gone. When I use localapps for things like firefox or OpenOffice I doubt that 512 MB RAM will be enough, will it?
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| 17:17 | <xavierb> Hi. I have problems with X_RAMPERC. Looks like it doesn't change anything because the whole session close (value is set to 80).
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| 17:18 | It is setup globaly in the default section. I doubt it would change anything but I wonder if it should rather be setup for each devices?
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| 17:47 | <Hyperbyte> xavierb, I don't think so. Are you having problems with thin clients crashing?
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| 18:01 | <xavierb> Hyperbyte: yes
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| 18:42 | <alkisg> xavierb: how much ram on the clients?
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| 18:44 | !xauthority
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| 18:44 | <ltsp> alkisg: xauthority: To access the thin client X display from ssh or from a local console, try: export $(tr '\0' '\n' < /proc/$(pidof -s ldm gdm-simple-greeter gnome-session | cut -d' ' -f1)/environ | egrep '^DISPLAY=|^XAUTHORITY=').
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| 18:45 | <Hyperbyte> How'd you manage that?
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| 18:45 | <alkisg> Double backslashes :) \\0
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| 18:45 | vlt: X should be more than 10 times faster than vnc. If that isn't true for you, something's very wrong
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| 18:46 | E.g. when you get 100% xorg cpu usage, that might be 2 vnc servers fighting for the same port (e.g. italc and vino-server or x11vnc)
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| 18:46 | So obviously your bottleneck would be that, then
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| 18:47 | <Hyperbyte> 18:03 <vlt> Hyperbyte: Another example: Printing (yes, printing! wtf!) an OpenOffice document with larger images fills up client's (yes, client's!) RAM.
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| 18:47 | This I find very curious.
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| 18:47 | <alkisg> That's just X pixmaps, local X memory
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| 18:48 | It's also the reason why a firefox web page might crash the client, if it doesn't have enough RAM or swap
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| 18:48 | <Hyperbyte> Oh, that's normal?
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| 18:50 | Client X needing more ram for certain programs ran on the server?
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| 18:51 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 18:51 | I've seen firefox and openoffice using up more than 200 mb ram on the client. No localapps, running normally on the server
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| 18:51 | xrestop helps troubleshooting that, or just enabling a big NBD_SWAP (I'm using 512 MB)
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| 18:54 | <Hyperbyte> I have no NBD_SWAP I think... but clients have 1 GB ram though.
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| 20:24 | <dgroos> vlt: just getting back...
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| 20:26 | 512 megs worked great! I use recycled pentium 4's (at least 1.8 GHz)
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| 20:27 | And my students would run CmapTools and watch instructional videos (Usually flash-based) on Firefox simultaneously and no swap on the local client was required.
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| 20:29 | I'm moving to fat clients for this coming year (The Plan) and alkisg has repeatedly said that 512 is sufficient for that, but I'm going to be installing more ram to bring clients up to 1 gig.
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| 20:30 | bbl
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