IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

Channel log from 19 October 2008 (all times are UTC)

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07:46	<petre> morning all
07:47	warren, ping
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07:54	<jammcq> hey petre
07:54	<petre> morning jammcq
07:54	<jammcq> Im wondering if Warren will be here this morning. I think he's still in Japan
07:55	or travelling back
07:55	<warren> i'm not here
07:55	<petre> I think he's still there, but I don't know what time it is
07:55	<jammcq> ah
07:55	<warren> I return from Japan Oct 28th
07:55	<jammcq> warren: you still in Japan?
07:55	wow
07:55	<warren> it is almost 10PM here
07:55	<jammcq> 9 more days?
07:55	how's it going there?
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07:56	<warren> very well, the big presentation was yesterday, it went really good
07:57	<jammcq> oh, that's great
07:57	<warren> prefecture and local government, educators from university and others were impressed
07:57	prefecture is roughly equivalent to "state"
07:57	<petre> warren, was that for a school?
07:57	<warren> petre: for ~60 schools
07:57	<petre> wow
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10:04	<gooddoogles> K12LTSP 5EL Will K12Linux support SATA drives? I'm thinking of upgrading.
10:14	<johnny> hmm?
10:14	support sata drives where?
10:14	on the server?
10:14	sure
10:14	the ide and sata layers are the same in recent kernels
10:15	i'm not sure about the uuid labeling in /etc/fstab tho.. i don't know if you have to manually change them or not
10:15	that's just standard stuff, not at all related to ltsp
10:20	<petre> gooddoogles, yes, it will support sata drives
10:21	both K12LTSP EL5 and K12Linux support sata drives
10:30	<johnny> all el5 supports sata drives
10:34	<gooddoogles> Sounds good.
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10:35	<gooddoogles> When I installed K12LTSP 5EL the installer would not recognize the drives. I tried having it load all of the drivers that seemed to relate to SATA drives, but with no success. I ended up going out and buying an IDE drive to get my server to work.
10:36	<jammcq> maybe an unsupported chipset or something. I've been using SATA for several years
10:36	<gooddoogles> One of the computers my school gave to me to use as a server has spaces for two drives and I have two SATA drives. I'd like to set them up in RAID so that, if and when a drive fails, my system will keep going.
10:37	<jammcq> good plan
10:37	using software raid? or does the motherboard have raid?
10:38	<gooddoogles> I think the motherboard has some kind of RAID option.
10:38	I've seen it in the BIOS.
10:38	<jammcq> my experience with the raid on motherboards has been bad
10:38	<gooddoogles> Oh.
10:38	<jammcq> Iv'e done software raid and I've used lots of 3ware raid controllers
10:39	the 3ware controllers are VERY well supported by Linux
10:39	<gooddoogles> Should I set up software RAID when I partition the disks for the K12Linux install?
10:39	If the 3ware controllers are inexpensive, I might be able to get the school to buy me one.
10:39	<jammcq> i've not installed k12 in a very long time, I don't know what options you have during install. but I'd certainly give it a try
10:40	<gooddoogles> I've heard that hardware RAID is superior to software RAID.
10:40	I have another server computer also. Two weeks ago I set up a second server computer using dhcpd failover. However, it doesn't seem to be speeding up the lab. In fact, sometimes computers in the lab freeze for a few seconds. I think there might be some kind of misconfiguration in my network.
10:40	<johnny> gooddoogles, there will be real clustering for ltsp soon
10:41	it exists for ubuntu, but not yet for redhat distros
10:41	<jammcq> well, i've heard that software raid performs better, but I like hardware raid because I like the idea of abstracting that away from the operating system
10:41	<johnny> jammcq, are you an apm guy then?
10:41	lol
10:41	<jammcq> also, hardware raid allows for hot swapping
10:41	heh
10:42	<gooddoogles> Because the network is 100 Mbps for clients (with 1 Gbps uplinks), I suspect that I would do better with one optimized server than two servers.
10:42	<jammcq> depends on the number of clients
10:43	<gooddoogles> There are three reasons I configured two servers (1) I wanted to see if I could do it, (2) I want to improve performance, and (3) I want to be able to quickly recover (within minutes) from a server failure.
10:43	Right now I have about 14 clients. I would like to eventually have about 30.
10:44	One of the things I want to have the kids do it Blender.
10:44	I mean "is" Blender.
10:44	<johnny> jammcq, hot swapping works with sata in general
10:45	<jammcq> johnny: yeah, it's part of the spec, but will Linux do the right thing when a new drive is plugged in?
10:46	<gooddoogles> In case you are interested, here are pics of my lab: http://picasaweb.google.com/CramptonFamily/CramptonOpenSourceLab
10:46	I'm teaching at a middle school in Jacksonville, FL. It's a magnet school for math, science, and technology.
10:46	<jammcq> wow, very impressive
10:46	<johnny> jammcq, it should now
10:47	<rjune_> gooddoogles: magnet?
10:47	<gooddoogles> We have a lot of poor kids. A lot of them use improper English, but can factor reasonable large numbers in their heads. An interesting population.
10:47	<nubae> gooddoogles: what are the client specs?
10:48	<johnny> jammcq, i haven't had the hardware to test it myself, since my power supply doesn't have he the proper support or enough actual sata power connectors
10:48	i'm using a ide -> sata adaptor atm
10:48	<rjune_> interesting, gooddoogles state school?
10:48	<johnny> jammcq, you can atually hot plug ram with the right hardware now
10:48	<gooddoogles> A magnet school means that the parents had to apply to send their kids. There are no admission requirements; it's done through a lottery. However, all of the kids at least have parents who want them to go to a better school.
10:48	<nubae> gooddoogles: if the client specs are high enough u could use local apps or fat client
10:49	<rjune_> yeah, I just looked it up on wp
10:49	<nubae> to run heavy duty stuff like blender
10:49	<gooddoogles> The current clients are about 3-year-old Lenovo machines.
10:50	I'm not sure what the specs are exactly, but they boot up in about 30 seconds on the network. I disconnected the hard drives.
10:50	<jhutchins_lt> I installed ltsp on a headless debian server and don't have a desktop environment available on my client. I added kde to the server, but there's still nothing avialble for the client.
10:50	<nubae> how much ram, that'd be the important factor
10:50	<jhutchins_lt> How do I make kde available?
10:50	<gooddoogles> I'll have to look into that.
10:51	I'd like to replace the current thin clients with the one pictured that sits behind the LCD monitor.
10:51	It's a Nohrtec Microclient, Sr. It cost about $200 and has 512 MB of RAM. It's very unobtrusive and energy efficient.
10:52	<nubae> hmm, well that would probably be good as a fatclient
10:52	or to run local apps
10:52	<gooddoogles> Yes, it seems a waste to not use the clients' own processing power.
10:53	I tried using Edubuntu, but for some reason the system ran very very slowly after I added more than about 4 clients.
10:53	<nubae> I see more advantage of running fatclient right now though... www.nubae.com there's an article there with a plugin you can download
10:53	<gooddoogles> I did all kinds of troubleshooting and tried different settings and tried to reconfigure the network switch.
10:53	<nubae> it has blender, kino, vlc, flash, scribus, etc preinstalled to the fat chroot
10:53	<gooddoogles> Eventually, I installed K12LTSP and it "just worked" out of the box.
10:54	<nubae> ah k12ltsp...
10:54	u'd need to modify the script to work on that... right now it is a Ubuntu plugin...
10:55	<gooddoogles> Oh, cool. I "StumbledUpon" one of your webpages a while ago. I don't remember which one, but I gave it a thumbs up.
10:55	<nubae> thanks... one of my next tasks is getting the plugin to work on other distros...
10:56	if only there were more hours in the days =)
10:57	<gooddoogles> The Computer Club at my school is interested in building a supercomputer, similar to the "Budget Supercomputer" that someone built with four motherboards.
10:57	I was thinking, perhaps, I could attach it to my network and use it for rendering the Blender artwork that students create.
10:58	<nubae> u might want to look at cluster-ltsp, though it is more for load balancing
10:58	<gooddoogles> I already had the students try running Blender and the terminals seemed to do fine just rotating and zooming around the design scene. We haven't tried any rendering yet, however.
10:58	<nubae> https://wiki.stgraber.org/LTSP-Cluster/Documentation/TestSetup
10:59	<alkisg> gooddoogles, in one of my schools I also have 100Mbps switch. I saw great performance increase using link aggregation (3 NICs on the server all connected to the same switch => load balancing).
11:00	<nubae> alkisg: u have that written up some place?
11:00	<alkisg> nubae, yes, but in Greek! :(
11:00	<gooddoogles> That sounds like a good idea.
11:00	<rjune_> anybody in southwest, GA?
11:00	<alkisg> I'm thinking of starting an english blog, to gather whatever new I tested...
11:00	<nubae> sure do it... its not only helpful but fun
11:01	<gooddoogles> I figure that, if I get the RAID configuration going, the likelihood of server downtime will be small.
11:01	I could take the NIC out of the other server (as well as the RAM) to make one more powerful server.
11:02	Then, if something happened to the server motherboard, I could move the RAM and hard drives to the other server.
11:02	That would probably put the system down for 10-15 minutes max.
11:03	rjune_, I'm in Jacksonville, FL.
11:03	<rjune_> yeah, I know you're close
11:03	I may be looking at moving to Albany, GA soon
11:03	<gooddoogles> I don't know this area real well. My wife, kids, and I moved here 6 months ago.
11:04	<alkisg> nubae, I do have a forum where many greek teachers talk, so it'll be more of a burden than fun... but I suppose it may help others, so I may do it anyway.
11:04	<gooddoogles> We are here because my sister (and her young family) moved here about 3 years ago.
11:04	<alkisg> gooddoogles, 2 servers are always better than one!
11:04	<gooddoogles> Why's that, alkisg?
11:04	<jhutchins_lt> Well, I guess I'll remove ltsp and reinstall it.
11:05	<gooddoogles> I figure that administration is so much easier with only one server.
11:05	<alkisg> well, load balancing would be much more effective. Administration would be simpler, yes...
11:06	<gooddoogles> The school district is paranoid about putting my new lab on their network, so I'm currently running an isolated network. One of the things that really irks me is I have to bring the server(s) home to upgrade them.
11:06	Because I'm isolated, I have to supply /home for the kids.
11:07	One of my biggest challenges was figuring out how to sync /home between the servers. I ended up writing a script that does it with rsync.
11:07	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: before you re-install ...
11:07	<jhutchins_lt> vagrantc: Yes?
11:08	I mean, I'm three minutes into the reinstall already, but...
11:08	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: could you run /usr/sbin/ldminfod and paste the output to the pastebot:
11:08	!pastebot
11:08	<ltspbot> vagrantc: "pastebot" is The LTSP pastebot is at http://pastebot.ltsp.org. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebot, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. A link to the content will be pasted in the channel.
11:08	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: reinstalling ltsp isn't likely to actually fix your problem.
11:08	<jhutchins_lt> vagrantc: Lovely.
11:08	vagrantc: What should I do?
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11:09	<jhutchins_lt> I mean, I was thrilled when I saw the PXE boot take off and load the login manager. I stare at those stupid things all day at work, building systems.
11:09	However, there is nowhere to go from the login page.
11:10	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: please paste the output "/usr/sbin/update-alternatives --display x-session-manager ; /usr/sbin/update-alternatives --display x-window-manager" to the pastebot.
11:10	jhutchins_lt: what do you mean "there is nowhere to go" ?
11:10	<jhutchins_lt> vagrantc: Well, like I said, now five minutes into reinstalling, so it'll be a few minutes.
11:10	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: re-installing the whole server?
11:10	<jhutchins_lt> I mean there is no GUI/Desktop Environment available.
11:11	vagrantc: aptitude install ltsp-server-standalone
11:11	vagrantc: Having un-installed it and removed /opt/ltsp
11:11	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: have you uninstalled kde ?
11:11	<jhutchins_lt> No.
11:11	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: then please run the update-alternatives commands i mentioned above.
11:12	<gooddoogles> Thanks for your conversation and ideas. I have a gmail account. You can reach me at SteveSings. I have to get back to grading projects.
11:12	<jhutchins_lt> Ok, ltsp-build-client just completed, let me see what we get.
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11:13	<jhutchins_lt> Looks like this one will work.
11:13	<ltsppbot> "jhutchins" pasted "Output" (9 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/52
11:14	<jhutchins_lt> Oh how nice, it posted it for me.
11:14	<vagrantc> !vers
11:14	<ltspbot> vagrantc: Error: "vers" is not a valid command.
11:14	<vagrantc> !ver
11:14	<ltspbot> vagrantc: "ver" is to get version info on debian/ubuntu (please use the pastebot): COLUMNS=200 dpkg -l 'ltsp' \| awk '/^ii/{print $2}/^ii/{print $3}' ; COLUMNS=200 dpkg --root=/opt/ltsp/i386 -l 'ltsp' ldm \| awk '/^ii/{print $2}/^ii/{print $3}'
11:15	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: please paste that ^^^ too
11:17	<ltsppbot> "jhutchins" pasted "ltsp-server 5.1.10-1~40.etch.0" (10 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/53
11:17	<jhutchins_lt> Client is starting up now.
11:17	<vagrantc> looks like you only partially followed the howto.
11:17	<jhutchins_lt> Or not, no tftp...
11:17	Eh?
11:17	What did I miss.
11:18	<vagrantc> you've installed the backported packages on the server, but the original debian etch packages in the chroot.
11:19	<jhutchins_lt> Heh. I followed http://wiki.debian.org/LTSP/Howto exactly so far.
11:19	<vagrantc> ltsp-build-client \
11:19	--extra-mirror "http://pkg-ltsp.alioth.debian.org/debian etch-ltsp-backports main" \
11:19	--apt-key /etc/apt/trusted.gpg
11:20	jhutchins_lt: you ran that command?
11:20	<jhutchins_lt> Ok, so to re-do it, do I remove /opt/ltsp again?
11:20	<vagrantc> yup.
11:20	<jhutchins_lt> No, I just ran ltsp-build-client
11:21	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: yeah, step 5 in "backported packages for etch"
11:21	jhutchins_lt: did you follow those instructions, or the ones above?
11:21	<jhutchins_lt> Actually, I ran that the first time, but of course it errored out because I had already run ltsp-build-client.
11:21	Strangely, I followed the instructions sequentially.
11:22	* jhutchins_lt waits impatiently for his third build.
11:22	<jhutchins_lt> It would seem quite useful to have a rebuild option.
11:22	Really appreciate the help, by the way.
11:22	<johnny> rebuild is the same as do over :)
11:23	<vagrantc> rebuild would have to just delete the directory ... otherwise you run the risk of having misconfigured stuff in the chroot
11:26	<jhutchins_lt> Woo!
11:26	Build complete
11:27	<vagrantc> there's also a few options to facilitate re-building so you don't have to re-download all the packages ... some of them are mentioned in --extra-help
11:28	<jhutchins_lt> Hm.... We're not getting net boot.
11:29	dhcpd's running...
11:29	<vagrantc> configured?
11:29	jhutchins_lt: could you paste the dhcpd.conf ?
11:30	<jhutchins_lt> Um, yeah, but it's tftp that's not running.
11:30	Hang on a sec.
11:30	<vagrantc> well, tftp should normally be run from inetd
11:30	unless you configured it otherwise
11:30	<jhutchins_lt> Sorry, I'm a redhat/mandriva guy, little clumsy on debian.
11:31	<vagrantc> no problem
11:31	<jhutchins_lt> there's no /etc/xinetd.d/
11:32	<vagrantc> probably /etc/inetd.conf
11:33	<jhutchins_lt> Yeah, there's no line for tftp for some reason.
11:33	<vagrantc> dpkg -l 'tftp*' \| egrep ^ii
11:34	i should really re-write wiki.debian.org/LTSP/Howto into separate sub-pages for each release.
11:35	as the instructions are a little different for etch, etch backports, and lenny
11:35	not hugely so, but enough thta i always get some of the same problems...
11:35	<jhutchins_lt> Yeah, it worked fine first time...
11:36	Could you paste the tftp line for inetd.confi?
11:36	.conf I mean.
11:36	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: it depends on which tftp you have installed....
11:37	<jhutchins_lt> hpa, from the ltsp install.
11:37	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: by default, it should pull in tftpd-hpa
11:37	jhutchins_lt: dpkg-reconfigure tftpd-hpa
11:37	<jhutchins_lt> Which it did, it's installed, but doesn't appear to be running. K.
11:38	Ok, do I need to restart inetd?
11:38	<vagrantc> grep tftp /etc/inetd.conf
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11:39	<jhutchins_lt> Still nothing there.
11:39	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: make sure it's in there ... then restart it: invoke-rc.d openbsd-inetd restart
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11:40	<jhutchins_lt> Crud. I've run dpkg-reconfigure four times now - toggled it on and off, still nothing in the inetd.conf file. Could you just paste the line and I'll add it manually?
11:41	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: it seems like you have numerous things broken which, in years of doing this stuff, have always "just worked" ... so i
11:41	'm hesitant to work around the problem.
11:42	<jhutchins_lt> Seriously? "which" is not part of default debian?
11:42	Years of doing it, minutes on this project.
11:43	<vagrantc> "which" is part of debianutils, which is a required package on debian. you'd have to go through a lot of hacking to get it to not be installed.
11:44	<jhutchins_lt> It's not in the chroot though, especially after the chroot the shell's "in" has been deleted twice.
11:45	tftp stream tcp nowait root /usr/sbin/tcpd /usr/sbin/in.tftpd -- that should do it.
11:45	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: sounds like you have a very broken system.
11:46	jhutchins_lt: 'shell's "in"' ?
11:46	<jhutchins_lt> vagrantc: No, not really. Only slightly broken. I'm running screen on the server, I had a window where the shell was in the chroot, which has since been deleted twice, once when I reinstalled ltsp, and once when I rebuilt it.
11:47	I was looking for the tftpd daemon for the inetd.conf, and which tftpd said no such command from there.
11:47	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: ah, that shell is likely to not work very well ...
11:47	<jhutchins_lt> Once I exited that chroot, it was fine.
11:47	<vagrantc> right
11:47	<jhutchins_lt> Yeah, no kidding. Rebooting the client agian after adding the line and restarting inetd, let's see if it works...
11:47	<vagrantc> so where are we?
11:48	<jhutchins_lt> Blasst.. Still stuck at tftp.
11:48	<vagrantc> that line might work, although it's not the same as the default ...
11:49	jhutchins_lt: am i mistaken, or did you actually have it sucessfully booting before?
11:49	<jhutchins_lt> Yes, it was.
11:49	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: and, if so, what changed since then?
11:49	<jhutchins_lt> At least to the GUI login.
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11:50	<jhutchins_lt> 1) aptitude remove ltsp-server-standalone, rm -f /opt/ltsp/ ; 2) aptitude install ltsp-server-standalone; ltsp-build-client; rm -f /opt/ltsp/; <more complex build client command to do updates>... That's pretty much it, other than this messing with trying to get tftp running.
11:52	<vagrantc> none of that should have broken tftp
11:52	... unless aptitude auto-removes stuff ...
11:52	but even then ... dpkg-reconfigure tftpd-hpa should take care of it.
11:54	jhutchins_lt: grep TFTP /etc/inetd.conf
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11:54	<jhutchins_lt> #:BOOT: TFTP service is provided primarily for booting. Most sites
11:55	<vagrantc> right ...
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11:55	<jhutchins_lt> I ran it from the command line and it appears to have succeeded.
11:55	Woo! White screen over there...
11:56	It's the login screen. Guess it would help if I chroot and add some users...
11:56	<vagrantc> update-inetd --group BOOT --add "tftp dgram udp wait root /usr/sbin/in.tftpd /usr/sbin/in.tftpd -s /var/lib/tftpboot"
11:57	running that might reveal why dpkg-reconfigure wasn't working ...
11:57	and/or add it properly...
11:57	jhutchins_lt: no need to add users to the chroot
11:57	jhutchins_lt: everything basically happens on the server.
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12:02	<jhutchins_lt> so add the users to the server, not the chroot?
12:02	<johnny> yes
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12:02	<johnny> just don't try to login as a user you're already logged in as
12:02	via gui
12:02	<jhutchins_lt> Um, no, I get a login screen.
12:03	Oh, sorry, mis-parsed.
12:03	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: if you're logged into the server directly as a particular user, don't log in form a thin-client as the same user.
12:03	<johnny> gnome doesn't like it.. and firefox doesn't like it .. and probably a bunch of other apps
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12:04	<jhutchins_lt> Yeah, multiple gui logins to the same home directory have "unexpected consequences".
12:04	I've tried that over X forwarding and using multiple X sessions on the same box.
12:06	WOOT! Viola, KDE.
12:06	Thanks much for your help.
12:07	Now I need auto-login of the default user, and to do configuration for the screen and apps and such.
12:07	How do I add apps? Just install 'em on the server?
12:07	<johnny> default user?
12:07	yes
12:08	<jhutchins_lt> There will be two users, a default and an alternative (or two).
12:08	<johnny> a default user per computer?
12:08	if you name the computers by hostname and give them also that password
12:08	then you can set autologin for each automatically
12:08	<jhutchins_lt> With a fullblown workstation installed to local HD, I jused kcontrol to set auto-login for the one I wanted as defualt.
12:08	Yes, I saw that you can set it by mac ID.
12:08	<johnny> and hostname
12:09	<jhutchins_lt> Set it by hostname, which is set where?
12:09	<johnny> same notation
12:09	[hostname]
12:09	<jhutchins_lt> Ah.
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12:09	<jhutchins_lt> I think that would assume some other method than ltsp to get the hostname.
12:09	<johnny> yeah.. dns and dhcp
12:10	<jhutchins_lt> Weh have here a single, diskless workstation.
12:13	Users can do things like set up their desktop resolution, screensaver, etc., right?
12:17	<stgraber> nubae: hi, I just saw you pasted the Testsetup wiki page some hours ago, it's been renamed to: https://wiki.stgraber.org/LTSP-Cluster/Documentation/OpenVZSetup
12:17	<jhutchins_lt> vagrantc: In the "known issues" section, as well as a couple of others, it's not clear what environment you're supposed to be in, ie server command line, chroot, client command line.
12:19	I had formerly shared directories on the server with clients via samba. How can I add these directories to the ltsp client? Seems like a symlink somwhere would do it nicely.
12:22	<nubae> stgraber: I'll update my records... thanks :-)
12:24	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: i write the documentation to be explicit such that you are never in the chroot unless it says so.
12:24	jhutchins_lt: so all the paths are full paths (assuming default install on i386)
12:29	jhutchins_lt: why do you want to share directories with the clients?
12:30	jhutchins_lt: the whole user's session is on the server. so when the user logs in, whatever's mounted on the server will be available to a user logged in via a thin-client.
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13:17	<jhutchins_lt> Symlinked the shares into the users home directories.
13:17	Mkay.
13:18	So I can make changes from the cleint just as if I were in a normal session on the server.
13:18	Need to get sound working, alsa and pulseaudio weren't installed on the server.
13:18	<jammcq> that's the thing, you ARE in a normal session on the server
13:19	the client is just a terminal that gets you a session on the server
13:19	<nubae> does anyone else thing sound is just way too low compared to a normal machine on a thing client?
13:19	think
13:20	<johnny> nubae, on which distro?
13:20	intrepid should have the fix for it, as well as newer releases of fedora and opensuse i imagine
13:22	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: you sure you have ltsp-server-standalone installed?
13:23	<nubae> nope intrepid is still way too low
13:24	I've tested it on various machines and the only way it sounds ok is through external speakers... laptop speakers just won't do it, even though they are fine on a normal or fatclient
13:24	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: you'll also probably want to read /usr/share/doc/ltsp-server/README.Debian.sound
13:24	<jhutchins_lt> vagrantc: Yup.
13:25	Heh. As you said, it's just like you're running on the server... so shutdown -r now doesn't reboot the client...
13:25	<vagrantc> correct.
13:25	<jhutchins_lt> vagrantc: I don't think that sound instruction is current, alsaconf didn't create the conf file there.
13:26	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: think of a thin-client as an extra monitor, mouse and keyboard for the server.
13:26	<johnny> nubae, there's an lts.conf var to set the baselink i think
13:26	err baseline
13:26	<jhutchins_lt> My main problem is that the documentation assumes that you have a full, working GUI on the server.
13:26	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: there's no reason why it would.
13:27	jhutchins_lt: i guess the missing information is "add the following lines to /etc/asound.conf, or create /etc/asound.conf if it is not already present"
13:27	<nubae> yeah I'm just saying the defaults are too lpow
13:27	low
13:27	<jhutchins_lt> Yeah, that's more specific.
13:28	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: though it's been a while since i've tested sound on etch.
13:28	<jhutchins_lt> Hm. Server was "entering maintenance mode". Off to the basement I guess...
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13:30	<jhutchins_lt> Yup, dropped to single user for some reason. Perhaps that's what Ctrl-Alt-Del does on debian.
13:31	So how does one properly reboot just the client?
13:31	<vagrantc> no, ctrl-alt-del defaults to a simple reboot
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13:31	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: log out and select reboot from the preferences menu
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13:33	<jhutchins_lt> Not sure how I managed single user mode then, but oh well, careening on.
13:34	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: you've had just enough quirks with this system i'd almost suspect some filesystem corruption or something like that
13:35	<jhutchins_lt> No, really, it's all the result of installing ltsp directly on a headless server that had harly even had a local console login before.
13:35	99% of what I've done with that server was over ssh.
13:36	The other factor here is that as I said, I'm more familiar with RedHat and related distros than with Debian, although I've dabbled in kubuntu and managed a couple of Gentoo systems for a few years.
13:37	I would suggest a note that a working GUI desktop should be set up on the server prior to installing LTSP.
13:39	The other thing would be just a little more wordiness about the updated pacakges; that you need to rebuild the client by first removing the chroot, that setting the root password in the chroot is obsolete, etc.
13:39	Also, something about when the client needs to be rebuilt/updated, ie for new kernels, or modules, or whatever.
13:41	I would change the line "adduser fuse USER" to "for each ltsp user, adduser fuse <username>". Also explicitly say that ltsp users need to be local users on the server.
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13:43	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: i don't see how installing over ssh would cause any of these problems.
13:43	jhutchins_lt: i do it all the time. almost exclusively.
13:43	<jhutchins_lt> Hm. "NFS over TCP not available"... Something didn't restart. What's the equivalent of "chkconfig" in debian?
13:43	vagrantc: No, installing over ssh isn't the problem, the problem is that there was no GUI environment on the server, no sound, etc.
13:46	<vagrantc> yes, ltsp-server-standalone should ensure that at the very least, a window manager was installed.
13:46	i've never quite figured out how to make a politically neutral choice on the default, though. :)
13:47	<jhutchins_lt> vagrantc: I dunno, maybe a choice menu?
13:47	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: what do you mean about "setting the root password in the chroot is obsolete" ?
13:48	jhutchins_lt: where would you put the menu?
13:48	jhutchins_lt: when have you ever needed a root password set?
13:48	<jhutchins_lt> Ok, that's in a different howto.
13:49	I think that was probably for the non-updated packages.
13:49	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: and you might note, it is a wiki.
13:49	jhutchins_lt: so you could fix it, and i'm subscribed to them, so i'll correct any factually incorrect changes.
13:49	<jhutchins_lt> What's supposed to start NBD.
13:49	<vagrantc> on debian, nothing.
13:49	<jhutchins_lt> vagrantc: It's a deal!
13:49	NFS?
13:50	<vagrantc> yes
13:50	* vagrantc makes sure vagrantc is still subscribed to the updated pages.
13:50	<jhutchins_lt> Ok, and does it run from inetd or as a daemon.
13:50	?
13:50	<vagrantc> it runs as a daemon
13:51	<jhutchins_lt> So what's the equivalent of chkconfig nfs-kernel-server on?
13:52	<vagrantc> i honestly don't know the equivalent.
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13:52	<jhutchins_lt> It would set nfs to start at boot by default.
13:52	<vagrantc> unless you've changed the default runlevel, you can look in /etc/rc2.d/ if the S*-nfs-kernel-server symlink is there.
13:54	<jhutchins_lt> Nope. Must've turned it off at some point, wasn't using it before.
13:54	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: you have anything in /etc/exports ?
13:56	<jhutchins_lt> Yep, the ltsp stuff, per the howto.
13:56	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: but you had configured it to not start?
13:56	<jhutchins_lt> Daemon wasn't running at update for some reason. Like I said, I think I turned it off.
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13:59	<vagrantc> ogra, stgraber: just uploaded ltspfs 0.5.5-1 to debian, should set the udev priority right based on which distro it's built on.
13:59	so should be syncable
14:02	<jhutchins_lt> Yeah, def. something strange on the server. sysv-rc-conf crashes out if I try to toggle bind or tftp.
14:07	<vagrantc> ah. sysv-rc-conf is supposed to be something sort of like chkconfig ?
14:07	* vagrantc hasn't found a replacement since switching away from the rpm family 7-9 years ago
14:09	<vagrantc> of course, i usually just remove stuff to have it not run.
14:09	haven't really made use of runlevels.
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14:13	<stgraber> vagrantc: cool
14:14	<jhutchins_lt> vagrantc: Actually, update-rc.d is the straight replacement for chkconfig, sysv-rc-conf gives you a text menu, but it's crashing when I try to turn certain things on & off.
14:15	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: well, update-rc.d is a bit ... klunkly.
14:16	<jhutchins_lt> Yeah.
14:16	Would apparently work better if the headers were more standard.
14:16	... just like chkconfig.
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14:27	<johnny> i like gentoo's init system much better
14:27	debian's is a total mess
14:32	<rjune_> isn't debian's init system a sysV variant?
14:34	<johnny> i'm sure it is
14:34	yes
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15:03	<jhutchins_ltsp> Still no joy on the sound. KDE Sound System just keeps trying to start it.
15:03	What other tools do I have to tweak it in ltsp?
15:04	<rjune_> what are you trying to do ?
15:04	KDE audio needs to be piped over something else.
15:05	<jhutchins_ltsp> Hi rjune_! Trying to get the sound on my diskless micro-atx ltsp client running.
15:05	<rjune_> NAS or ESD both make good transports
15:05	<jhutchins_ltsp> rjune_: Is there a howto somewhere?
15:05	<rjune_> there is for ltsp4
15:05	<jhutchins_ltsp> ... which of course is totally useless for 5 I'd guess.
15:05	<rjune_> if you are operating as a terminal rather then running everything remotely it should still apply
15:06	<jhutchins_ltsp> This is so far just a stock installation from the debian howto, using the updated files.
15:06	<rjune_> http://www.bravegnuworld.com/~rjune/ltsp/audio/HOWTO-arts.html
15:06	I know nothing about ltsp5
15:06	but I know a bit about ltsp4
15:06	if you have X providing the display, and all the work happening on the server
15:06	then that document should help
15:07	I would suggest using esound for the base transport
15:07	it's likely already in your distro and arts likely has support for it
15:07	I have to take a quick shower. I'll be back in 30 min or so
15:08	<jhutchins_ltsp> I'll see how far I get, thanks.
15:08	<rjune_> yup
15:13	<jhutchins_ltsp> Where's my lts.conf file on 5?
15:16	<vagrantc> what the .... ?!?! ... my ltspfs upload, for some bizarre reason, didn't include the orig.tar.gz
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15:21	<jhutchins_ltsp> wow. Must've been in the chroot.
15:25	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: what's KDE configured to use for sound?
15:25	jhutchins_lt: should configure it to use alsa
15:26	<jhutchins_ltsp> yes, it is. lts.confi had #SOUND=FALSE. I've replaced that with SOUND=Y
15:26	<vagrantc> defaults to True.
15:27	<jhutchins_ltsp> Well crud. What else then?
15:27	<vagrantc> i haven't messed with KDE sound much, but i know that's what the debian-edu folks use, and it "just works" as far as i've heard.
15:27	<jhutchins_ltsp> Does the new pulseaudio setup need to have ESD set up?
15:28	<vagrantc> it emulates ESD ... so if you can redirect to esound, then it should work.
15:36	<rjune_> jhutchins_ltsp: see if you get pulseaudio together manually
15:36	aka, first make sure it works
15:37	then make it automagic
15:39	<jhutchins_ltsp> How?
15:40	<rjune_> don't know how to do pulseaudio
15:40	IIRC, esd was ESPEAKER="terminal"
15:40	then run esd on terminal
15:40	and esdplay on the server
15:41	get pulse working, then arts should be easy
15:41	KDE control panel should have option for esd
15:42	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt:
15:42	<jhutchins_ltsp> I have no idea what packages might install esd on debian. I've tried a few things, I'm going to restart the client and see what happens.
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15:42	<vagrantc> don't mess with esd that way.
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15:43	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: can you check if it's registering the pulse device with alsamixer ?
15:43	jhutchins_lt: in the package alsa-utils
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15:48	<jhutchins_ltsp> Still no sound.
15:48	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: does alsamixer register the pulseaudio device?
15:49	<jhutchins_ltsp> I wonder how I'd get the MAC of the workstation instead of the server?
15:49	<vagrantc> look in your dhcp logs
15:50	<jhutchins_ltsp> /var/log/messages for that matter, I 'spose.
15:50	<vagrantc> or /var/log/syslog ...
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15:50	<jhutchins_ltsp> Yes, alsamixer runs and shows pulseaudio as the device.
15:51	Oops, no it doesn't since reboot.
15:51	*** PULSEAUDIO: Unable to connect: Connection refused
15:51	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: logging in from a thin client?
15:51	jhutchins_lt: and in an xterm?
15:51	<jhutchins_ltsp> Yes.
15:51	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: echo $PULSE_SERVER
15:52	<jhutchins_ltsp> Nothing.
15:52	<vagrantc> maybe it didn't detect your sound hardware ...
15:52	but even then, PULSE_SERVER should get set ...
15:52	!ver
15:52	<ltspbot> vagrantc: "ver" is to get version info on debian/ubuntu (please use the pastebot): COLUMNS=200 dpkg -l 'ltsp' \| awk '/^ii/{print $2}/^ii/{print $3}' ; COLUMNS=200 dpkg --root=/opt/ltsp/i386 -l 'ltsp' ldm \| awk '/^ii/{print $2}/^ii/{print $3}'
15:52	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: can you paste that again?
15:53	<jhutchins_ltsp> !paste
15:53	<ltspbot> jhutchins_ltsp: Error: "paste" is not a valid command.
15:53	<jhutchins_ltsp> !pastebin
15:53	<ltspbot> jhutchins_ltsp: Error: "pastebin" is not a valid command.
15:53	<vagrantc> !pastebot
15:53	<ltspbot> vagrantc: "pastebot" is The LTSP pastebot is at http://pastebot.ltsp.org. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebot, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. A link to the content will be pasted in the channel.
15:53	<vagrantc> ltspbot: learn paste as try !pastebot
15:53	<ltspbot> vagrantc: The operation succeeded.
15:54	<vagrantc> ltspbot: learn pastebin as try !pastebot
15:54	<ltspbot> vagrantc: The operation succeeded.
15:54	<vagrantc> !paste
15:54	<ltspbot> vagrantc: "paste" is try !pastebot
15:54	<vagrantc> !pastebin
15:54	<ltspbot> vagrantc: "pastebin" is try !pastebot
15:54	<vagrantc> :)
15:54	<ltsppbot> "jhutchins_ltsp" pasted "ltsp-server 5.1.10-1~40.etch.0" (14 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/54
15:55	<jhutchins_ltsp> I'm going to take the audio stuff from the wiki back out of lts.conf and restart.
15:55	<vagrantc> audio stuff from the wiki?
15:57	<ltsppbot> "jhutchins_ltsp" pasted "# SOUND=Y # SOUND_DAEMON=esd #" (5 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/55
15:57	<jhutchins_ltsp> Without the #'s.
15:57	brb
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16:00	<jhutchins_ltsp> Ok.
16:00	Now I get alsamixer,
16:01	kmix doesn't find any mixer though.
16:01	<vagrantc> echo $PULSE_SERVER
16:01	jhutchins_lt: could you paste your whole lts.conf?
16:01	<jhutchins_ltsp> tcp:192.168.76.6:4713
16:02	vagrantc: Dead stock default, everything commented except X_COLOR_DEPTH=16
16:03	The IP above is the clent, btw.
16:03	<vagrantc> jhutchins_ltsp: yes, that sounds correct.
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16:05	<vagrantc> jhutchins_ltsp: ok, so there's something amiss in the KDE configuration -> alsa layer, i'm guessing.
16:06	jhutchins_ltsp: i try to support backports as much as possible, but would you consider using debian lenny? it's currently in freeze and due to release "real soon now(tm)"
16:07	* jhutchins_ltsp cackles maniacly
16:07	<jhutchins_ltsp> I barely know what to do with etch! Half the documentation is barely up to etch, let alone etchandahalf!
16:08	Would a lenny client be good enough?
16:08	<vagrantc> well, it's mostly the server-side stuff that's probably not working so well.
16:08	<jhutchins_ltsp> Hm.
16:09	I think that may be a bigger job than I have time for this weekend, I'm running out of time as it is.
16:09	<vagrantc> i don't test KDE much at all, so it's hard for me to know how well each and every feature works.
16:09	<jhutchins_ltsp> vagrantc: Understood.
16:09	<vagrantc> jhutchins_ltsp: might consider installing vorbis-tools and seeing if ogg123 works for sound...
16:09	<jhutchins_ltsp> vagrantc: What do you run on your clients?
16:10	Hm - sure.
16:10	<vagrantc> just try simple, individual applications
16:10	<jhutchins_ltsp> Install from a shell on the server, not the client, or does it matter?
16:10	<vagrantc> jhutchins_ltsp: mostly, icewm or gnome. though i don't personally use either of those :)
16:11	<jhutchins_ltsp> appears to be here already.
16:11	<vagrantc> jhutchins_ltsp: i'll be explicit if you have to do anything anywhere but on the server.
16:11	<jhutchins_ltsp> Now you probably want me to find an ogg.
16:11	<vagrantc> oh, yeah, i just assumed that'd be handy ... sorry.
16:12	jhutchins_ltsp: here's a smallish one from a recent debian-edu gathering: http://ftp.skolelinux.org/skolelinux/press/20081013-conference/20081013-conf-0of9.ogg
16:12	<jhutchins_ltsp> cannot open device alsa009
16:12	er, 09.
16:13	<vagrantc> i remember the remote sound on etch was a little finicky.
16:13	<jhutchins_ltsp> But will it let go of my terminal? Nooo.
16:14	<Vince-0> ltsp whoot
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16:15	<jhutchins_ltsp> Not that it matters, but the speaker jack is usually green, right?
16:15	vagrantc: On another note, on 5 do I need to explicitly enable local USB devices?
16:16	<vagrantc> jhutchins_ltsp: the instructions on the backports page should be sufficient.
16:16	jhutchins_ltsp: namely, add the users to the fuse group.
16:16	make sure the fuse module is loaded.
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16:17	<jhutchins_ltsp> K. 'cause next on the list is getting the ipod nano working.
16:18	<vagrantc> make sure it shows up on a "normal" system first.
16:21	<jhutchins_ltsp> It'll be interesting. I don't think they show up as normal USB Storage devices. (I should check one of those first.)
16:21	At least it's charging.
16:21	<vagrantc> that'll be a challenge, then.
16:21	<ogra> grmbl ...
16:22	getting the size of gtk widgets before they are mapped is a pain in several not to mention body areas
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16:26	<stgraber> ogra: btw, do you have that ldm code uploaded somewhere ?
16:27	<ogra> not yet
16:27	as soon as i have something thats clean enough
16:27	i'm still experimenting
16:28	<stgraber> ok, I received a couple of suggestions from our test users that I'd like to implement in LDM
16:28	<ogra> its non functional anyway, i'm only playing with layout possibilities
16:28	if thats doable in the normal ldm, do it there, i will port all gui items that exist
16:29	m current cde only has the clock (which might optionally get a cairo analog clock btw :) ) the logo and an input field
16:30	<stgraber> ogra: analog cairo clock, that'd rock :)
16:30	<ogra> i'm not really happy with the size detection code i got yet, i want a proper half transparent bounding box around the input field but thats very hard to do in a clean way
16:31	well, the items are freely positionable and each sits in its own function
16:31	<stgraber> I have one easy change: make <tab> to do the same as <enter> (similar to gdm's behaviour) the other will be a bit more tricky
16:31	<ogra> so you can easily drop the digital clock core in favor of an analog one :)
16:31	<stgraber> as it's to basically have a way to make LDM try the password only once, then get back to the login prompt (so you don't have to enter 2 more buggy password because you can fix the typing mistake you did in the login)
16:32	<ogra> that sounds like helpful for current ldm
16:32	stgraber, ++
16:32	<jhutchins_ltsp> rebooting to test auto-login, brb
16:32	jhutchins_ltsp has quit IRC
16:32	<ogra> i'D love that
16:32	i hacked ldm before to do that but with sbalneav's changes thats not as easy anymore
16:32	<stgraber> second will need an extra ssh parameter and probably some changes in the expect code
16:32	<ogra> yeah
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16:34	<jhutchins_ltsp> Oh for...
16:34	It's a _PERMISSIONS_ issue on /dev/dsp.
16:36	brb
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16:38	<stgraber> ogra: btw, if you don't know what to do one of the days: https://wiki.stgraber.org/LTSP-Cluster/Documentation/OpenVZSetup
16:38	<jhutchins_ltsp> Houston we have audio!
16:38	<ogra> stgraber, after release
16:42	<jhutchins_ltsp> vagrantc: Ok, note to add ltsp users to the audio group.
16:42	Next, on to flash!
16:44	<ogra> shudder
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16:53	<jhutchins_ltsp> Well, no youtube this weekend, but we're getting there. Thanks so much for all the help!
16:53	jhutchins_ltsp has quit IRC
16:57	<stgraber> ogra: btw, I just noticed there's a TB meeting on Tuesday, maybe this time they'll have time to look at my upload rights for LTSP+iTalc :)
16:58	<ogra> heh, just in time for the "nothing goes" freeze
16:58	<stgraber> yeah ..
16:59	<ogra> though i think we're mostly fine for intrepid
16:59	<stgraber> yep, I just need to do some more QA on iTalc this week, just to be sure everything works as expected but other than that it looks like a really good release for LTSP
17:00	(iTalc SHOULD be good too but the last patch went in a rush so I'd prefer to make sure all supported usecase are fine now)
17:00	<ogra> would you mind triggering a discussion about a safe way to get user lists for ldm ? i would be willing to put something like that into the UI, but i cant imagine a safe way to get a list witut exposing user names anywhere
17:00	<jammcq> ogra: is release this week or next?
17:01	<ogra> 30th or 31th
17:01	<jammcq> ah
17:01	k
17:01	* ogra alwas forgets the exact date
17:01	<stgraber> should be on the 30th
17:01	<jammcq> it's usually a thursday, eh?
17:01	<stgraber> we tend to have all deadlines on the Thursdays
17:01	<ogra> yeah
17:02	meh, gtk is evil ... if you want non standard things
17:03	but i think i found a way for the size detection of widgets
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17:10	<vagrantc> what's all this talk about user lists?
17:10	like, a drop-down menu to select your login?
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17:14	<vagrantc> jhutchins_lt: ah yes. audio group. who would've thought. :)
17:16	<ogra> vagrantc, either that or even something with icons to click on
17:16	<vagrantc> icons? eeeyk.
17:16	<ogra> redesiging UI code gets me weird ideas, sorry
17:16	* vagrantc remembers the sppoky head icon problem from using XDMCP with KDM
17:16	<vagrantc> there were hundreds of head icons, and it would eventually crash the thin client
17:17	<ogra> heh
17:17	well
17:17	i would program that better then
17:17	<vagrantc> on a server with lots of logins, that seems very likely to be hard to implement in a useful way...
17:17	<ogra> ldm-ng already has about 50% of debug code already
17:18	* ogra is doing a massive code cleanup of each function he ports over to the new UI
17:19	<ogra> and adding lots of ifdefs to switch on different debugging modes
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17:25	<johnny> you could do it like google suggest i guess.. type in the first bits of letters
17:25	ie: the parts you remember
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17:36	* vagrantc attempts to tackle the Xsession mess again
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17:36	<vagrantc> one piece at a time.
17:37	<ogra> i'm only taking care of the ui atm :)
17:38	ooh, the new ubuntu system cleaner is sweet
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17:40	<vagrantc> hrm. trickier than i thought. we have to selectively define the Xsession based on which server is selected.
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17:41	<ogra> thats why it should come from ldminfo
17:41	<vagrantc> i was hoping we could just handle it in the screen script.
17:41	right, i'm looking at implementing it in ldminfod...
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17:41	<vagrantc> implementing the ldminfod side of it is pretty simple.
17:42	<ogra> yeah
17:42	<vagrantc> may as well start there.
17:42	<ogra> we could even hardcode it at compile time based on lsd-release
17:42	err
17:42	s/d/b/
17:42	:)
17:42	<vagrantc> indeed.
17:43	though i'll start with the simplest implementation first, and we can improve it later.
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18:20	<vagrantc> hrm. ldminfo stuff is currently only handled in the greeter...
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18:22	<vagrantc> would have to somehow include that in ldm itself...
18:27	ccherret1 is now known as ccherrett
18:45	<vagrantc> ok, how to actually make use of ldminfo.c is over my head.
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18:50	<Ryan52> vagrantc: just link it too...see Makefile.am in the src dir.
18:51	if it and the greeter share a header file, then copy the functions defined in the header file that are relavant to ldminfo.c into a separate .h file
18:51	then: #include "file.h"
18:51	in the ldm's and the greeter's header file.
18:53	<vagrantc> Ryan52: that part i can sort of stumble through ... it's more just following how ldminfo.c is used at all
18:55	<Ryan52> oh. wow. the word over complicated comes to mind...
18:55	<vagrantc> and just rudiments of C
18:55	ah, well, at least it's not just my incompetence :)
18:57	i just need a way to parse output generated by ldminfod and set a variable based on the xsession: value
18:58	i was first just trying to implement it in the greeter itself, just to wrap my head around it ...
18:58	even though that wouldn't work for autologin
19:01	* Ryan52 goes back to parsing purposes
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20:56	* vagrantc does cargo cult dances and wonders why the gods have shown no interest in C
20:59	<jammcq> huh?
21:01	<vagrantc> jammcq: i don't know what i'm doing, but i'm fiddling with things in the greeter to try and make it work :)
21:01	<jammcq> ah, in C ?
21:01	<vagrantc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming
21:02	<jammcq> hahahahha
21:02	that's hilarious
21:02	<vagrantc> maybe i'm not even qualified to be cargo cult programming
21:03	i always think of it when i'm way over my head in something, and trying to fumble my way through it :)
21:03	<jammcq> I know a few of those Cargo Cult programmers
21:03	<vagrantc> well, looks like i finally got it to compile again...
21:04	<jammcq> well, if it compiles, it must be correct, eh?
21:04	* vagrantc isn't that naive
21:13	<vagrantc> ldminfo.c: In function ‘_ldminfo_parse_string’:
21:13	ldminfo.c:155: warning: assignment from incompatible pointer type
21:13	hmmm... doesn't bode so well, does it.
21:13	<jammcq> heh
21:13	what does line 155 look like?
21:15	<vagrantc> ldm_host_info->xsession = val[1];
21:15	what are the -> do-hickeys?
21:15	<jammcq> de-reference a pointer
21:15	val is an array of something
21:16	ldm_info_info.xession is a pointer to something
21:16	just make sure the 2 "somethings" are the same
21:16	same type
21:17	err
21:17	-> isn't exactly dereferencing a pointer
21:18	well, it sort of is. ldm_host_info is a pointer to a struct
21:18	* vagrantc wonders how to ensure the somethings are of the same type
21:18	<rjune_> in C?
21:19	<vagrantc> rjune_: yes...
21:19	<jammcq> ldm_host_info->xession = val[1] says "take the value from val[1] and stuff it into the xession member of the struct pointed to by ldm_host_info
21:19	<rjune_> hard to do unless the structure includes a parameter that indicates the type
21:19	<jammcq> vagrantc: need to see the definitons of the struct pointed to by ldm_hist_info, and the array called 'val'
21:20	* jammcq hasn't programmed in C in a while
21:20	<vagrantc> jammcq: i can't even figure out where val comes from ...
21:21	<jammcq> there's prolly a header file containing the definition of the struct
21:21	<rjune_> val is an array
21:21	<vagrantc> er ... gchar **val;
21:21	<jammcq> ah
21:21	<rjune_> a gtk char isn't it?
21:21	<vagrantc> val = g_strsplit(lines[i], ":", 256);
21:21	<rjune_> vagrantc: pointer to a string
21:21	<vagrantc> followed by that ...
21:21	<jammcq> val is a pointer to an array of pointers
21:21	<vagrantc> which looks like a split on :
21:22	the example line i'm trying to deconstruct ...
21:22	<jammcq> so the type of value stored in the array is of type 'gchar'
21:22	<vagrantc> xsession:/etc/X11/Xsession
21:22	<rjune_> jammcq: isn't it a pointer to an array of gchar's? not array of pointers
21:23	<jammcq> umm
21:23	<rjune_> or a pointer to a gchar *
21:23	<jammcq> I think it's a pointer to an array of pointers to gchar's
21:23	<rjune_> which normally would be called a string
21:23	<jammcq> just like argv, is usally defined as **argv
21:23	which is an array of pointers to strings
21:24	<rjune_> which is a pointer to an array of char* ...
21:24	<jammcq> or pointer to an array of strings
21:24	<rjune_> ok. I can see that.
21:24	<jammcq> and a string is nothing more than an array of char (or gchar in this case)
21:24	<rjune_> right
21:24	<jammcq> so, how is the struct declared with the xsession member
21:24	<ltsppbot> "vagrantc" pasted "more cargo cult patches" (36 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/56
21:24	<rjune_> so it can be an array of gchar * or a pointer to an array of gchar
21:25	<jammcq> prolly as a pointer to an array of 'char' strings
21:25	<rjune_> vagrantc: which bit are we looking at?
21:25	<jammcq> in which case, possibly: ldm_host_info->xession = (char)val[1];
21:25	might do the trick
21:25	* vagrantc digs up a URL for the whole code...
21:25	<jammcq> or: (gchar*)(ldm_host_inf0->xession) = val[1];
21:26	i'm a bit rusty tho
21:26	<rjune_> no, what is xsession?
21:26	<vagrantc> i blindly made it a GList in the .h file ...
21:26	<rjune_> I'm not sure what a GList is.
21:26	<vagrantc> gchar didn't work out for me...
21:26	* vagrantc isn't sure what any of this is :)
21:26	<rjune_> vagrantc: should probably be a gchar *
21:26	though that means you have to do memory handling
21:27	<Ryan52> rjune_: no, glib does all that.
21:27	<rjune_> if you make it a gchar[256] you avoid dealing with memory
21:27	<vagrantc> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ldm-trunk/files/919?file_id=ldmgtkgreet0.1-20070612162729-e6zhalymbgx16ejx-1
21:27	<jammcq> ugh
21:27	<rjune_> glib has automagic garbage collection?
21:27	<vagrantc> that's a browseable link for this source
21:27	<rjune_> jammcq: ugh which?
21:27	<jammcq> [256]
21:27	<rjune_> yeah
21:27	<Ryan52> rjune_: it makes things easier, lets put it that way.
21:27	really easy.
21:28	<rjune_> but ifn he's not a coder, that might be simplest for him.
21:28	<jammcq> it's either wasteful, cuz your strings might alwasy be small, or it's dangerous cuz your strings could be longer than that
21:28	<rjune_> jammcq: not per that snippet
21:28	+ val = g_strsplit(lines[i], ":", 256); <-- I would have to check that function, but I bet it breaks at 256 bytes
21:28	<jammcq> ah
21:28	<rjune_> so odds are it's wasteful, but not a memory leak
21:29	<jammcq> right
21:29	<rjune_> Ryan52: malloc and free aren't difficult.
21:29	it's the remembering to malloc and free that suck
21:29	<Ryan52> okay, ya.
21:30	<rjune_> vagrantc: where else are you usnig xsession?
21:30	<vagrantc> rjune_: nowhere yet
21:31	wheee: ldminfo.c: In function ‘ldminfo_init’:
21:31	ldminfo.c:59: warning: assignment makes integer from pointer without a cast
21:31	ldminfo.c: In function ‘_ldminfo_parse_string’:
21:31	ldminfo.c:155: warning: assignment makes integer from pointer without a cast
21:31	that's after switching it to gchar ... in greeter.h
21:32	<rjune_> vagrantc: do you know the difference between char and char[] ?
21:32	<Ryan52> vagrantc: "gchar *" or gchar var[size];
21:32	<vagrantc> rjune_: nope.
21:32	<rjune_> gchar refers to a single character
21:32	so 'a'
21:32	<vagrantc> Ryan52: gchar xsession;
21:33	Ryan52: so i used neither
21:33	<Ryan52> vagrantc: you need to add [256] to the end, or a * in the middle :)
21:33	<rjune_> gchar[9] can be up to 8 characters + NULL
21:33	so 'local\0'
21:34	<vagrantc> Ryan52: with [256]; ...ldminfo.c: In function ‘ldminfo_init’:
21:34	ldminfo.c:59: error: incompatible types in assignment
21:34	ldminfo.c: In function ‘_ldminfo_parse_string’:
21:34	ldminfo.c:155: error: incompatible types in assignment
21:34	<rjune_> \0 represents NULL
21:34	<Ryan52> vagrantc: how are you assigning?
21:34	<rjune_> vagrantc: when using [256] you have to do typecasting
21:34	(gchar *)...->xsession = val[1];
21:34	<vagrantc> gchar xsession[256];
21:35	<Ryan52> vagrantc: xsession = blah;
21:35	(that part)
21:35	<rjune_> val is a gchar *
21:35	so you have to assign it to a gchar *
21:35	<vagrantc> Ryan52: no idea!
21:35	<Ryan52> vagrantc: so your not using this variable anywhere?
21:35	<rjune_> he's trying to add it.
21:35	<Ryan52> he must be using it somewhere. hence the "incompatible types in assignment"
21:35	<vagrantc> Ryan52: this is the closest i have to trying to use it: ldm_host_info->xsession = val[1];
21:36	<rjune_> vagrantc: if you have some free time, I suggest you grab "A Book on C" or poke google for "Thinking in C"
21:36	<Ryan52> vagrantc: val is an array of what?
21:36	<rjune_> vagrantc: (gchar *)(ldm_host_info->xsession) = val[1];
21:36	Ryan52: gchar I think.
21:36	<vagrantc> rjune_: mostly, i just try and do the occasional small patch and if i get in over my head i rope in others :)
21:36	<rjune_> val = g_strsplit(lines[i], ":", 256); <-- there's the assignment
21:36	vagrantc: still, good to know the basic concepts.
21:37	<vagrantc> Ryan52: i think it ends up being an array of xession and /etc/X11/Xsession ...
21:37	<rjune_> C is the stepping stone to many other languages
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21:37	<rjune_> vagrantc: that's the data stored in the array, not the type of the array
21:37	<Ryan52> vagrantc: where and how is the variable called val declared?
21:38	vagrantc: like the "gchar xsession[256];"
21:38	<vagrantc> Ryan52: http://pastebot.ltsp.org/56
21:38	Ryan52: gchar **val;
21:38	<Ryan52> + GList *xsession;
21:39	whereas the other is a gchar
21:39	those are not compatible with each other :)
21:39	* vagrantc wonders how bad of a performance hit it might be to re-write the ldminfo parsing in python...
21:39	<rjune_> LOL
21:39	<vagrantc> Ryan52: well, that's the one i switched to gchar foo[256];
21:39	<rjune_> Ryan52: hence the suggestion he use a gchar[256]
21:40	though it should probably be a 257
21:40	then when you set gchar do xsession[256] = '\0'; that ensures a terminated string
21:40	<vagrantc> Ryan52: pastebot is behind the times already... i'm a fast-moving clueless developer :)
21:40	<jammcq> C is perfectly well suited for this task
21:40	<Ryan52> rjune_: i think the 256 in that call is part includes the null character...
21:40	* vagrantc is not perfectly well suited for C
21:40	<rjune_> jammcq: but is he? ;-)
21:41	<jammcq> Python makes it easy, but there's way too much overhead for something as simple as this
21:41	<Ryan52> heh
21:41	<rjune_> Ryan52: I don't know that.
21:41	<jammcq> he can learn, this is a perfect opportunity
21:41	<rjune_> I haven't done much GTK stuff with C, so I'm taking the "safe" route
21:41	<Ryan52> rjune_: way off!
21:41	rjune_: that's the number to split it into, not the size of the string.
21:42	<rjune_> damn, split into up to 256 strings?
21:42	that's impressive.
21:42	vagrantc: ignore me and read the docs. always
21:42	<vagrantc> heh
21:42	<Ryan52> vagrantc: same goes for me :)
21:43	<rjune_> unless jammcq agrees with me. then it's cool.
21:43	<jammcq> is that saying "split this string into no more than 256 pieces" ?
21:43	<Ryan52> so it's probably dynamically allocated to whatever it needs to be.
21:43	jammcq, yup :)
21:43	<jammcq> makes sense
21:43	<vagrantc> ok ... so: gchar *xsession; gives no compile warnings...
21:44	<rjune_> nope. it won't
21:44	you're assigning a gchar * to a gchar *
21:44	<vagrantc> but val was: gchar **val;
21:44	<rjune_> that's ok.
21:44	<Ryan52> vagrantc: but your saying to use the first.
21:44	<rjune_> val is a gchar *, val[1] is a gchar
21:44	<Ryan52> vagrantc: see ** means it's an array of arrays of gchars.
21:44	<jammcq> that's an array of gchar pointers
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21:45	<jammcq> and val[1] will return one of those pointers
21:45	<vagrantc> *** would be 3 items?
21:45	<rjune_> by indexing gchar, you dereference one of the *
21:45	<jammcq> and stuffing it into xession works, cuz it's declared to hold a gchar pointer
21:45	<vagrantc> that much makes sense.
21:45	<rjune_> vagrantc: do you understand the concept of an array?
21:45	<vagrantc> rjune_: difference between a hash or dictionary?
21:45	<rjune_> gchar ** is a two dimensional array
21:45	vagrantc: nope, mathematic array
21:45	[ 0 1 2 3 ]
21:46	*** is a three dimensional array
21:46	<vagrantc> each part contains something, and you can reference them with foo[0], foo[1], etc ... ?
21:46	<rjune_> right.
21:46	<jammcq> carefull, ** isn't necessarily a 2 dimensional array
21:46	it's an array of pointers
21:46	<rjune_> jammcq: true, but let's get the basic concept first.
21:46	<jammcq> or, points to an array of pointers
21:46	val[][] is a 2 dimensional array
21:46	* vagrantc points the finger at The Man
21:47	<rjune_> LOL
21:48	<jammcq> I should actually stay out of this conversation. I'm right at the edge of my memory of C programming
21:48	ask me a Perl question tho :)
21:48	<rjune_> heh
21:48	I need to learn perl.
21:49	<vagrantc> ok, so it compiles and doesn't explode.... now how do i get information back out of ldminfo ?
21:49	<Ryan52> vagrantc: same as everywhere else. ldminfo->xsession
21:50	* vagrantc doesn't see that used anywhere.
21:50	<Ryan52> err, ldm_host_info
21:50	<vagrantc> aha.
21:51	i can simply treat ldminfo->xsession just like any other variable?
21:51	<rjune_> it is any other variable.
21:51	<jammcq> yeah, zackly
21:51	<vagrantc> ok.
21:52	<rjune_> ldminfo is a structure(variable, kinda)
21:52	if you declare a variable of type ldminfo, it will have a property called xsession
21:52	<vagrantc> of course, where the heck in this code it's actually available... is a bit confusing
21:53	<rjune_> ldm_host_info <--- that's the variable name you're working with in ldminfo.c
21:55	<vagrantc> now if i can just figure out all these g_something_with_a_bazillion_underscores do
21:56	<Ryan52> http://library.gnome.org
21:56	:)
21:56	<vagrantc> heh
21:57	it seems like the ldminfo related stuff should be split out from greeter.h ...
21:57	* Ryan52 nods
22:02	* vagrantc eyeballs g_hash_table_lookup
22:02	<johnny> vagrantc, glib is quite the library
22:02	saves you from having to deal with alot of nonsense
22:03	<vagrantc> looks like a lot of nonsense from this angle
22:03	<johnny> if you were to look at gtk itself.. you'd disagree :)
22:03	<vagrantc> but i recognize my ignorance
22:03	<johnny> saves you from having to deal with memory management and alot of cross platform issues
22:04	petre has quit IRC
22:04	<johnny> plus.. gio is awesome :)
22:04	* vagrantc doesn't have the background to find any of this very interesting
22:04	<johnny> vagrantc, somebody even took the concept of gobjects that were built into glib.. and built another programming language on top called vala :)
22:04	vagrantc, i'm not a C programming btw
22:05	i just follow gnome devel
22:05	and of course.. i'm a gentoo user.. so that helps
22:05	* vagrantc just tries to prevent massive amounts of toxic equipment from hitting landfills and stupidly overpowered desktops from running screensavers
22:06	<Ryan52> "stupidly overpowered desktops from running screensavers"?
22:06	<vagrantc> Ryan52: well, screensavers are about the only thing most people run these days that actually test the limits of the hardware
22:07	<Ryan52> oh
22:08	* vagrantc gives up
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22:10	<vagrantc> i took the low-hanging fruit and committed it 4 hours ago and have an infinitessimally small increased understanding of C.
22:11	<jhutchins> gotta love it when it works, even if you're not sure why.
22:11	<vagrantc> well, the low-hanging fruit was in python :)
22:12	i could re-write all this ldminfo parsing in 5 minutes in shell or python... but 4 hours and i'm just tired.
22:12	<jhutchins> I appear to have sound, youtube, and printing working. These were the primary complaints from running MCNLive, which is essentially a Live CD on a USB key.
22:13	<Ryan52> vagrantc: if you wanna tell me what it is you were trying to do, I'll do it :)
22:13	<jhutchins> The thing _I_ appreciate about this, over MCNLive, is that I can add apps, change settings, customize it.
22:14	vagrantc: Seriously, from my limited C exposure (after six mainframe languages), that sounds about right.
22:14	What I can do in a shell script would take days to do in C.
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22:16	<ltsppbot> "vagrantc" pasted "patial patch to get Xsession from ldminfod" (68 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/57
22:16	<johnny> jhutchins, thus glib/gobject/gtk+.. which is supposed to make things easier.. especially if you can use anjuta or some other IDE that offers code completion and help.. instead of searching docs all day
22:16	then you can just get directly to your work
22:16	<vagrantc> Ryan52: all i need is the "magic" referenced in that patch :)
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22:17	<johnny> jhutchins, i'm a web developer/scripter by trade.. it's just the gospel i hear :)
22:17	from all the gnomers
22:18	writing raw C is no fun for anybody who is trying to get something done
22:18	that's why glib == awesome :)
22:18	<jhutchins> heh.
22:18	<Ryan52> johnny: but it's really fun when your just bored and don't have a project to do :)
22:18	<johnny> Ryan52, when is that???
22:18	<jhutchins> Well, I'm a sysadmin now, and devoutly not a coder.
22:18	<johnny> lemme know when i get some of that?
22:18	i can*
22:18	<Ryan52> heh
22:18	<jhutchins> I can script your sox off, but I leave code to those who do it well
22:19	<johnny> jhutchins, it's cold in here.. please don't do it
22:19	:)
22:19	shogunx has joined #ltsp
22:19	<jhutchins> I _won't_ code.
22:19	<ltsppbot> "vagrantc" pasted "more Xsession patch" (104 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/58
22:19	<johnny> the scripting
22:19	if you were to code.. at least it would warm my machine :)
22:19	lol
22:19	<vagrantc> Ryan52: that's actually everything i've figured out in the last 4 hours ^^^
22:20	<jhutchins> I will refer the job to a coder, and I will translate his utterances to the user. that's what I do.
22:21	<Ryan52> vagrantc: k. first question is how do I get ldminfod to give me whatever it is supposed to give me? and second is, do mind if I do it tomorrow? :)
22:21	<jhutchins> Thanks for the work, and thanks for the help. I have a significant milestone done this weekend, and it may blossom into a major industrial project.
22:22	<vagrantc> Ryan52: ltsp-trunk/server/ldminfod
22:22	Ryan52: i committed the changes to it so it should spit out xsession:
22:22	<Ryan52> oh, I must've missed that one.
22:22	<vagrantc> Ryan52: and you can just run it manually ...
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22:38	<vagrantc> maybe i should rip out the setxkbmap call and stick it in an rc.d/I* script just to feel like i accomplished something today.
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