IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 15 June 2012 (all times are UTC)
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| 05:27 | <mealstrom> good morning
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| 05:36 | <knipwim> good morning to you also
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| 06:09 | <Hyperbyte> Gooood morning. :)
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| 06:12 | <alkisg> ΚαλημÎρα
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| 06:12 | <muppis> | |
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| 06:49 | <elias_a> alkisg: I would have something to give to you in exchange of your work and the community as well. A well-designed resource planning sw for schools and educational organizations. FLOSS, of course. Interested?
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| 06:50 | <alkisg> elias_a: could you elaborate on "resource planning"?
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| 06:51 | <elias_a> alkisg: Personnel data, working hours, classrooms etc.
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| 06:51 | It is not perfect, yet :)
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| 06:52 | But it is already in production use for 2 years in an institution having a multitude of roles.
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| 06:52 | <alkisg> elias_a: have you seen http://book.schooltool.org/screenshots.html ?
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| 06:53 | <elias_a> alkisg: I have been following schooltool but it is not sufficient enough for schools giving atypical education.
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| 06:53 | <alkisg> It does have some resource planning modules... but we don't use it much in Greece because we're mostly using a commercial greek+windows-only application for that...
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| 06:54 | I did hear some teachers looking for FLOSS alternatives to that
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| 06:54 | But fortunately I never had to work with such programs, so I've never looked into any of them
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| 06:54 | <elias_a> alkisg: I am asking this because I heard 2 italian guys are already translating the sw I am talking about to greek.
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| 06:55 | <alkisg> ...italian guys translating to greek?! Cool!!!
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| 06:55 | <elias_a> alkisg: Welcome to the club having the same attitude prob :D
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| 06:55 | alkisg: I do not want to give these dudes a monopoly of operation.
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| 06:55 | <alkisg> elias_a: it does sound interesting, if the sw has a web site I'd be glad to post it in my "IT teachers" forum where everyone would see it...
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| 06:56 | <elias_a> alkisg: Gimme a minute. I'll find the english one...
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| 07:19 | <elias_a> alkisg: http://code.google.com/p/pyramus/
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| 07:19 | alkisg: Please ask more if you need more information.
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| 07:20 | <alkisg> elias_a: is there a public username/password for https://demo.pyramus.fi ?
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| 07:21 | brb, will read logs
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| 07:21 | <elias_a> Just a moment - will check
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| 07:32 | <ball> Is there an LTSP image that would work with an old PowerPC CRT iMac?
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| 07:35 | ...or is it i386-only?
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| 07:36 | <alkisg> You can build one, sure
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| 07:38 | <ball> Ah, do they have to be built to suit their environment?
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| 07:40 | (the images for each type of thin client)
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| 11:16 | <Guest5765> hyperbyte
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| 11:17 | are you around
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| 11:31 | <Guest5765> Hi All Anyone tell me what booting in rescue mode is
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| 11:31 | <knipwim> in ubuntu?
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| 11:32 | <Guest5765> Yes, Am informed since I have trouble with Dell Dimension 2400 that I should boot in rescue mode then delete compiz
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| 11:33 | <muppis> In Ubuntu it's single user mode (as root) for maintenance when system cannot booted normally. It should be possible get rid from Compiz in normal mode.
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| 11:33 | <Guest5765> The Del 2400 are client machines
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| 11:33 | <muppis> !compiz
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| 11:33 | <ltsp_> muppis: compiz: the default window manager in gnome is gnome-wm, which automatically chooses compiz if it thinks that the card supports it. Compiz is causing login problems to some clients (LP #673072). To disable it, see !disable_compiz. To restore it, see !restore_compiz
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| 11:34 | <muppis> !disable_compiz
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| 11:34 | <ltsp_> muppis: disable_compiz: To disable compiz for all users, run: sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager metacity
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| 11:34 | <muppis> Guest5765, ^
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| 11:35 | !forget disable_compiz
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| 11:35 | <ltsp_> muppis: The operation succeeded.
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| 11:35 | <muppis> !learn disable_compiz as To disable compiz for all users, run: sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set
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| 11:35 | <ltsp_> muppis: The operation succeeded.
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| 11:35 | <muppis> | |
| 11:35 | !forget disable_compiz
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| 11:35 | <ltsp_> muppis: The operation succeeded.
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| 11:35 | <muppis> !learn disable_compiz as To disable compiz for all users, run at server: sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager metacity
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| 11:35 | <ltsp_> muppis: The operation succeeded.
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| 11:36 | <muppis> !disable_compiz
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| 11:36 | <ltsp_> muppis: disable_compiz: To disable compiz for all users, run at server: sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager metacity
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| 11:36 | <muppis> More sensible.
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| 11:37 | <Guest5765> Woooooo! Am in thick mode today ---will repeat commands as single lines
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| 11:38 | sudo gconftool2 --direct --config
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| 11:39 | * alkisg wonders if that still works in 12.04 with dconf... | |
| 11:40 | <Guest5765> Is that all one line
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| 11:40 | <muppis> Sure.
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| 11:40 | <Guest5765> alkisg
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| 11:41 | Many thanks for your help and Hyperbytes, got 30 user system working
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| 11:41 | <alkisg> Nice :)
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| 11:42 | * ball puts up bunting to celebrate | |
| 11:43 | <Guest5765> Now I have to lockdown the thing to stop the little b*******s playing about
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| 11:44 | sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager metacity
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| 11:44 | OK for 10.04
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| 11:46 | <ball> I'll be back later
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| 11:47 | <alkisg> Why prevent them from playing with their own desktop?
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| 11:48 | Just reset whatever things you need e.g. on login
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| 11:49 | <Guest5765> Intend to use menu editor to set that up
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| 11:50 | This is one of the reasons I want ltsp - have been using samba with a centos server
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| 11:50 | I'll be back later
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| 12:55 | * Hyperbyte shivers at the sight of gconftool-2 commands | |
| 12:56 | * Hyperbyte <3 Gnome3 dconf | |
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| 16:37 | <alkisg> vagrantc: there's a bug in epoptes 0.5.4-1, I solved it at r318, so we'd need a newer version before debian ships. Essentially if the teacher works with epoptes for a while, student monitoring/assisting stopped working...
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| 16:37 | stgraber: should I ask for an SRU only for this bug, or for the whole new version, considering it only has translation updates otherwise, compared to the version shipped with 12.04?
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| 16:38 | <vagrantc> alkisg: it was also a bug in previous versions?
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| 16:38 | <alkisg> vagrantc: for some time, yes, but maybe not for the 0.4.x versions
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| 16:41 | <vagrantc> alkisg: it just looks like a variable rename
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| 16:41 | <alkisg> vagrantc: the problem was that we used the same variable for both monitoring and broadcasting, while we needed 2 variables
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| 16:41 | <vagrantc> aha!
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| 16:41 | <alkisg> So monitor + broadcast + stop transmissions + monitor => monitor stops working at that step
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| 16:45 | <stgraber> alkisg: it's technically possible but it's tricky and weird looking enough (you'd basically see a package targeted to unstable landing in precise-proposed) that it'd probably slow down the process
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| 16:45 | alkisg: so having the fixed version synced in quantal, then cherry-pick the fix and upload to precise-proposed would be much easier and faster
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| 16:46 | alkisg: let me know once it's in quantal and I can take care of the rest if you want
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| 16:46 | <alkisg> stgraber: we can wait till it hits testing, if it makes a difference... I think it has 7-8 new languages since 12.04, and a lot of other translation updates
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| 16:46 | If not, ok, I'll just cherrypick the bug
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| 16:47 | <stgraber> alkisg: waiting for it to hit testing wouldn't make a difference. Is it in unstable already (so I can look at the changelog, see if it'd work for the SRU)?
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| 16:48 | <alkisg> stgraber: no, it's not in debian yet, thanks, I'll ping you once it's there
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| 16:49 | <stgraber> alkisg: ok. I might be able to do some magic if it contains (LP: #XXXXXX) where XXXXXX is the SRU bug report but only once that hits quantal
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| 16:49 | <alkisg> Sure, I can do that
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| 17:16 | * vagrantc is pulled in too many directions today | |
| 17:17 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so, if i recall correctly, you were thinking that pxelinux.cfg/default should only be edited manually from the chroot, and ltsp-update-kernels would override changes made to the tftp dir?
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| 17:18 | <alkisg> vagrantc: either that, or it wouldn't even copy the file to the TFTP dir, it would merge them all into a single ltsp file
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| 17:18 | <vagrantc> it seems like the tftp dir would be more appropriate to protect from chaanges.
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| 17:18 | alkisg: that seems like a step 2 project.
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| 17:18 | <alkisg> And in the tftp, the master pxelinux.cfg/default would be editable
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| 17:19 | <vagrantc> but maybe there's no way to handle the chroot "correctly" without also handling the server-side.
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| 17:19 | <alkisg> The first problem is that the chroot doesn't know its TFTP path
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| 17:20 | <vagrantc> and doesn't need to to support a single chroot.
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| 17:20 | pxelinux.0 handles relative paths fine.
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| 17:21 | i've basically got it working as it did before, with some more options if you enable menus.
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| 17:21 | <alkisg> vagrantc: if dnsmasq points to TFTP/pxelinux.cfg/default, can that then load TFTP/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/*, if they don't have the "ltsp/i386" path in them? I don't think so...
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| 17:21 | <vagrantc> and some split out files that will make it easier for the server to generate a master file.
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| 17:22 | alkisg: agreed.
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| 17:22 | alkisg: but if dnsmasq points to TFTP/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.0 it works just as it has for so many years.
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| 17:22 | <alkisg> (although it should be able to do so, but that's another story)
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| 17:22 | Right, but then it makes it impossible to select between chroots
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| 17:22 | <vagrantc> right.
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| 17:23 | <alkisg> That part should be handled by ltsp-update-kernels, imo
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| 17:23 | <vagrantc> yes, makes sense.
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| 17:24 | you might be able to chain-load pxelinux.0 and have it work more-or-less ok.
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| 17:24 | <alkisg> While we could push for pxelinux to support those relative include paths, we'd still have many tftp hits, so merging them all into a single file does make sense
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| 17:24 | <vagrantc> agreed
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| 17:25 | so actually ... at this point, i think thee client-side update-kernels should actually overwrite pxelinux.cfg/default every time, and ltsp-update-kernels shouldn't bother to "protect" local changes, and ltsp-update-kernels should generate a TFTP/ltsp/pxelinux.cfg/* or maybe top-level TFTP/pxelinux.cfg/*
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| 17:26 | and then the ltsp-update-kernels generated pxelinux.cfg would have default bbe generated once.
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| 17:26 | <alkisg> I think client-side should generate at least two files, default and ltsp
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| 17:26 | default should be user-editable
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| 17:26 | This way we don't need to have a lot LTSP-specific options for default, the user can read the pxelinux manpage
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| 17:27 | <vagrantc> editable in the chroot, or in the tftp dir? because editable in the chroot means you have to remember to run ltsp-update-kernels for your changes to take effect.
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| 17:27 | <alkisg> In the chroot
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| 17:27 | In the TFTP dir all those files would be merged into a single ltsp file
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| 17:28 | And yet another master pxelinux.cfg/default would exist there for the same reason
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| 17:28 | So, whether the normal TFTP is used, or the CHROOT/boot is used directly, we'd always have 2 tftp hits, one for default and one for ltsp
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| 17:28 | <vagrantc> sure.
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| 17:29 | though i'm not seeing why the chroot should be user-editable rather than the TFTP dir.
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| 17:29 | <alkisg> How would we preserve the user changes in the TFTP?
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| 17:30 | <vagrantc> we'd have to copy the changes over and exclude default?
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| 17:30 | <alkisg> Suppose I put a command line in the chroot /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf, how will that reach TFTP while preserving the user changes?
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| 17:31 | <vagrantc> alkisg: like you're saying, it'll be in pxelinux.cfg/ltsp, which is autogenerated ... you'll have to run ltsp-update-kernels for those sorts of changes, yes.
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| 17:32 | but for changes to pxelinux.cfg/default ?
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| 17:34 | <alkisg> vagrantc: ah did you mean that you want the cfg/default changes to be in the TFTP dir?
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| 17:35 | So that we'd only copy pxelinux.cfg/default once?
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| 17:35 | <vagrantc> uh, this is so confusing to even have the right words to talk about it :(
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| 17:35 | alkisg: yes!
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| 17:36 | <alkisg> Well, if we'll be merging everything into a single "ltsp" file, then there won't be a "default" on the TFTP, other than the master one,
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| 17:36 | <vagrantc> so, each chroot will also have a "single" ltsp file.
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| 17:36 | <alkisg> ...other than that... ok I don't see any problems yet
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| 17:36 | I was thinking that the server TFTP can have only a single ltsp file for all chroots
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| 17:37 | <vagrantc> you're saying ditch the per-chroot pxelinux.cfg/default entirely?
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| 17:37 | <alkisg> Let's get it from the start
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| 17:37 | update-kernels => regenerates ltsp, writes default once
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| 17:37 | <vagrantc> ok
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| 17:38 | <alkisg> ltsp-update-kernels => either merges them directly into one single ltsp file... or it does this in 2 steps, first it copies them in the TFTP dir and then merges them, in order for them to be available even if the chroot goes away (e.g. temporarily NFS mounted) and merges them in the second step
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| 17:38 | ltsp-update-kernels: also writes a master pxelinux.cfg/default once
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| 17:39 | <vagrantc> ok
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| 17:39 | <alkisg> If it merges them in 2 steps, then the default ones can be editable in the TFTP dir, sure
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| 17:40 | <vagrantc> if they're editable in the TFTP dir, we have to make sure they're excluded from the copy-to-tftp dir steps
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| 17:40 | well, the "default" files.
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| 17:41 | i'm inclined to your two-step approachh
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| 17:41 | * alkisg wouldn't mind if the default ones would be editable in the TFTP dir, it does have benefits | |
| 17:42 | <vagrantc> that seems to make sense, it just requires using something other than "cp" which seems to have no exclude mechanism
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| 17:42 | currently, it's just a cp -a ...
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| 17:43 | <alkisg> Is it possible to not generate "default" in the chroot at all?
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| 17:43 | <vagrantc> alkisg: yup.
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| 17:44 | that'd be the easiest way... and then if an admin had a new chroot on an old server, they'd have to manually create it... which shouldn't be difficult.
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| 17:44 | it could even create a default.EXAMPLE or something.
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| 17:44 | <alkisg> Second idea... what if the chroot "ltsp" was named "default"?
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| 17:44 | <vagrantc> alkisg: then it wouldn't be editable.
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| 17:44 | <alkisg> I.e. it would be regenerated each time, like it is now
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| 17:45 | The user would only edit the master pxelinux.cfg/default
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| 17:45 | What are the downsides in this?
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| 17:45 | <vagrantc> that actually sounds pretty simple, sure.
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| 17:45 | the only downside would be some corner-cased mismatched server/client versions.
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| 17:46 | that preserves old behavior while adding new functionality.
| |
| 17:46 | it's a deal.
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| 17:46 | <alkisg> We could put some compatibility code in ltsp-update-kernels, when merging all the chroot defaults into a single ltsp file to minimize the tftp hits
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| 17:47 | (the path updating would also be included in that step)
| |
| 17:47 | And I think we can put that code now without breaking anything, as the users would need to change their tftp settings to point to the master default anyway
| |
| 17:48 | soo... update-kernels => dumb, ltsp-update-kernels => smart
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| 17:49 | (the chroot defaults and the cfg/ltsp would all mention in a comment that they're regenerated)
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| 17:49 | <vagrantc> yup.
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| 17:49 | <alkisg> Sounds good to me
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| 17:49 | <vagrantc> i'll implement that, and maybe get around to the ltsp-update-kernels parts today, too.
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| 17:50 | alkisg: thanks for talking it out despite having a lot of other stuff going on!
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| 17:50 | <alkisg> np, I love seeing ltsp progress when I wake up ;)
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| 18:05 | <vagrantc> ok, client-side is easy, pushed.
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| 18:05 | er, almost
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| 18:07 | <vagrantc> i really need to rewrite it with some functions, there's a lot of cut-and-paste code.
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| 18:08 | <vagrantc> especially once it gets moved into the server-side ltsp-update-kernels
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| 18:36 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so, you think i should upload epoptes to debian before it hits testing?
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| 18:36 | alkisg: or should i wait a few days and then upload?
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| 18:36 | * alkisg checks the days... | |
| 18:37 | <vagrantc> it's relatively minor changes, i could upload with medium priority, maybe. (i.e. 5 days instead of the usual 10 days)
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| 18:37 | after testing of course
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| 18:37 | alkisg: it's currently got 4 days for 0.5.3-1 -> 0.5.4-1
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| 18:37 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I think best upload now, no point to wait for the previous one to hit testing, it's not like it has any changes, just translation updates
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| 18:39 | vagrantc: go for 0.5.5, not 0.5.4-2
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| 18:39 | <vagrantc> alkisg: ok, i'll try to upload today, maybe with medium priority.
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| 18:39 | alkisg: yeah, it's upstream source changes, and there's only a few updated translations
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| 18:39 | <alkisg> ty :)
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| 18:40 | <vagrantc> if it was just one patch, and a bunch of other changes, i'd probably just patch the old version.
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| 18:40 | <alkisg> Hmm maybe I should file an LP bug report for the changelog, to help with the Ubuntu SRU
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| 18:42 | <vagrantc> launchpad translations keeps having phantomas as the last translator for new languages ... sure knows a lot of languages!
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| 18:43 | alkisg: always helpful to have bug reports to refer to.
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| 18:43 | <alkisg> LP #1013808
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| 18:47 | <elias_a> alkisg: I'll get back to you on Monday about the test user account.
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| 18:47 | Could not reach the person who sits on it.
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| 18:48 | <alkisg> elias_a: np, I did post it in a forum for interested people to see
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| 18:48 | <elias_a> alkisg: Thank you!
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| 18:48 | alkisg: IMHO it is a sound project.
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| 18:48 | Both in content and also techically.
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| 20:31 | <Q-FUNK> vagrantc: thanks for the reply. AFAIK neither mkelfimage or mknbi produce something that those old DBE60 like.
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| 20:32 | vagrantc: I vaguely recall someone recommending that we replace both with wraplinux instead.
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| 20:33 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: if you can get something to work with wraplinux, mention it in the bug report, ideally with a patch :)
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| 20:35 | <Q-FUNK> vagrantc: whatever produces the default images results in a file that gets accepted, but not loaded. meanwhile mknbi produce files that flat-out fail to be loaded.
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| 20:36 | is mkelf ir mknbi used to make the legacy images?
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| 20:37 | btw, shouldn't the ntpdate that is bundled in the chroot be configured to fetch time from the LTSP server? it currently seems to do nothing.
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| 20:37 | <||cw> woulnd't it fetch the time from the time server your DHCP lists?
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| 20:37 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: it uses mkelfImage (from mkelfimage) if present, falling back to mkelf-linux (from mknbi), and if mknbi-linux (from mknbi) is present, it generates legacy-nbi.img
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| 20:38 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: ntp configuration is updated at boot time.
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| 20:39 | Q-FUNK: or at least, should be.
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| 20:40 | <Q-FUNK> ok, so if mkelfimage is removed, nbi.img will be generated by mkelf-linux (instead of mkelfimage) and a new legacy-nbi.img will be generated by mknbi-linux?
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| 20:40 | <davew_> Hi All, am trying to use menu editor qand profile manager to save menus for a particular group but changes dont happen when members of the group log in ----Anyone help
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| 20:40 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: yup.
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| 20:41 | <Q-FUNK> negative on the ntp config. this batteryless terminal's date starts and increaments to the bios' build date.
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| 20:41 | <davew_> Oh dear not another one -any fix?
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| 20:41 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: is this a change oof behavior?
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| 20:42 | <Q-FUNK> vagrantc: ntpdate never worked. it dumbly expects to include /etc/ntp.conf if found and reverts to some external generic server e.g. pool.ntp.debian.org that cannot be reached without NAT.
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| 20:43 | btw, the legacy-nbi.img symlink doesn't get created when the kernels are updaed.
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| 20:43 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: i've been using ntpdate in lts for years.
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| 20:43 | ltsp
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| 20:44 | i'd pretty much like to drop support for the nbi.img generation entirely and create plugins that people can do whatever things they need to do.
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| 20:45 | it's a pretty rare client these days that doesn't support PXE, and it's a significant extra code overhead
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| 20:51 | hah. yeah, the NTP code *is* broken ...
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| 20:56 | <vagrantc> ok, think i've fixed it.
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| 20:57 | <Q-FUNK> I dunno. I keep on bumping into antiquated headless 586 that only support straight etherboot.
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| 20:58 | not to mention those dbe60 terminals :)
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| 20:59 | can I try your ntpdate patch?
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| 20:59 | I could immediately tell you whether it works or not :)
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| 21:00 | <vagrantc> i've tested it a few times already to see what was wrong
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| 21:00 | yeah, new patch works
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| 21:02 | Q-FUNK: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-trunk/revision/2349?start_revid=2349
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| 21:02 | <Q-FUNK> http://paste.debian.net/174731/
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| 21:03 | are those options still valid? my terminal boots in 16bpp instead of 24.
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| 21:04 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: there was a bug with X_COLOR_DEPTH, fixed in commit 2316
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| 21:04 | https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-trunk/revision/2316/client/share/ltsp/screen-session.d/XS95-colordepth
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| 21:05 | in theory, i was planning on uploading a new version today...
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| 21:08 | <Q-FUNK> :D
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| 21:09 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: any more lingering bugs you've found? :)
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| 21:10 | <Q-FUNK> that's what I'm checking right now :)
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| 21:10 | I'll skip trying to get the etherboot clients working for now. getting ntpdate and X_COLOR_DEPTH working would already be a real achievement.
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| 21:11 | hm. why do we recommend both nfs and nbd on debian?
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| 21:11 | can we get by with just nbd?
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| 21:11 | (on the server, that is)
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| 21:12 | I'd rather avoid installing portmap&co if I can.
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| 21:12 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: the default is NFS, and NBD is used for NBD swap.
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| 21:12 | Q-FUNK: that's why i left it recommends ... it should be used in "normal" circumstances, but you can install without it.
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| 21:13 | <Q-FUNK> hm... where was the ntpdate hidden again? I could 'patch' it as q quick test, now that I've downloaded the diff, but...
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| 21:13 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: /usr/share/ltsp/init-ltsp.d/
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| 21:18 | <Q-FUNK> ah yes
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| 21:18 | patching
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| 21:18 | does it fetch the ntd server from dhcp options or does it presume it to be the ltsp server?
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| 21:18 | öö... ntp
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| 21:19 | vagrantc: ok. the thing is, I had gotten used to nbd for both swap and boot image loading at ubuntu. it works, and it saves me from having all that RPC stuff.
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| 21:20 | vagrantc: that's why I was wondering why we use nfs at debian.
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| 21:20 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: TIMESERVER=auto will default to the server, otherwise whatever you set TIMESERVER to
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| 21:22 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: i've stuck with NFS because it works, has worked for some time, and doesn't require things like ltsp-update-image in order to make your changes go live, or some of the other hacks to support NBD root ... it's muchly improved in the recent 5.3/5.4 LTSP series
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| 21:23 | NBD root support is much better in recent versions of LTSP ...
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| 21:23 | <Q-FUNK> yes, especially since recent NBD use separate configs for swap and boot image, so no need for inetd stuff.
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| 21:23 | <vagrantc> also, it's much easier to switch back and forth between the two modes now.
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| 21:23 | it used to actually require initramfs changes
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| 21:23 | <Q-FUNK> or well, LDM still passes via inetd...
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| 21:24 | <vagrantc> there are schemes to change that too ... but for a later time :)
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| 21:24 | <Q-FUNK> hm, no cigar. it still shows the BIOS build date.
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| 21:24 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: did you run ltsp-update-image?
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| 21:25 | Q-FUNK: and are you running an ntp server on whatever server you've pointed TIMESERVER at?
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| 21:25 | <Q-FUNK> yup, I've got ntp running locally
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| 21:25 | <vagrantc> where did you specify TIMESERVER?
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| 21:26 | works like a charm for me.
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| 21:26 | <Q-FUNK> I haven't specified it. wouldn't "auto" revert to the ltsp server?
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| 21:27 | <vagrantc> it doesn't have a default setting
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| 21:27 | i.e. no NTP stuff when unspecified
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| 21:27 | oh, i suppose it'd fall back to the default behavior
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| 21:27 | <alkisg> Q-FUNK: afaik the most recent etherboot version can load pxelinux.0 if you point them to that from dhcp, do you know which versions require an .nbi?
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| 21:28 | <Q-FUNK> alkisg: that's just the thing. we only need etherboot for legacy clients without PXE possibility.
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| 21:28 | <alkisg> Q-FUNK: do they have an etherboot rom burned in? which etherboot version is that? Because newer etherboot versions do work
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| 21:29 | <vagrantc> alkisg: epoptes pushed, tagged and uploaded.
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| 21:29 | <alkisg> ty vagrantc
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| 21:29 | <Q-FUNK> vagrantc: could we make the default TIMESERVER=dhcpserver if none is specified?
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| 21:29 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: you could network boot iPXE from etherboot, probably.
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| 21:29 | <alkisg> I'll sync it to quantal and file an SRU
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| 21:29 | <Q-FUNK> vagrantc: negative. iPXE still requires a client with a full BIOS.
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| 21:29 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: could you network boot a newer version of etherboot?
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| 21:30 | <Q-FUNK> it still wouldn't fix the fact that this is not a full bios. pxe specs very much depend upon a full bios being available.
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| 21:31 | <alkisg> What do you mean full bios? ipxe doesn't require any networking code from the bios...
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| 21:31 | <vagrantc> and old-school etherboot doesn't?
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| 21:31 | <Q-FUNK> pxe expects to be able to fetch e.g. available video resolutions from bios interupts to display boot menus, etc.
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| 21:31 | <vagrantc> so if TIMESERVER is not set, ntpdate will try to hit the default mirrors ... i guess that's not so bad.
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| 21:32 | <alkisg> It's not required to use a vesamenu, you can have text mode menu
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| 21:32 | actually text mode is the default
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| 21:32 | <Q-FUNK> trying to hit e.g. pool.ntp.org is bad, because the server box is not NAT'ing the connection to the outside.
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| 21:32 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: at which point, it will fail quickly.
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| 21:33 | <Q-FUNK> hence why we need to make the default TIMESERVER={dhcp server} or take the info via dhcp options.
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| 21:34 | <vagrantc> or just disable ntp if TIMESERVER is not set.
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| 21:34 | Q-FUNK: patches welcome :)
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| 21:35 | <Q-FUNK> ok. TIMESERVER=(ltsp server) is set. let's see if it takes it :)
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| 21:36 | <alkisg> ipconfig doesn't return the ntp server from dhcp, does it?
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| 21:36 | udhcpc does, but...
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| 21:37 | <vagrantc> TIMESERVER=auto should work.
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| 21:37 | do the same thing, but not require changing the setting.
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| 21:37 | <||cw> right, that's the dhcp clients job to put the setting it the ntp config
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| 21:38 | <alkisg> vagrantc: maybe ltsp-server could suggest ntpd?
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| 21:38 | <vagrantc> yeah, but we don't necessarily fully use the dhcp settings.
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| 21:38 | alkisg: suggests are almost worthless ... is it worrth promoting it to a recommend?
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| 21:39 | <alkisg> If it doesn't interfere with anything, sure, but suggests is also nice for the sysadmin to keep an eye on. I think even software center shows the suggested packages at the bottom
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| 21:40 | <Q-FUNK> yup, auto works. :) can this become the default, so that if nothing is set, that's our fallback?
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| 21:40 | * alkisg would vote for TIMESERVER=unset if we don't recommend ntpd, and auto if we do | |
| 21:40 | <vagrantc> Q-FUNK: i think we did that in the past and people complained about it.
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| 21:41 | <Q-FUNK> here, I've mostly complained that it never worked, but well... ;)
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| 21:41 | <vagrantc> ltsp-server recommend ntp, ltsp-server-standalone depend ntp ...
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| 21:41 | Q-FUNK: yes, and never is a long time, i must be in an alternate timestream :P
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| 21:42 | <Q-FUNK> auto would at least make the client try to fetch something. at worst, it exits.
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| 21:42 | <alkisg> Do we still use our own ntp client code, or we leave it up to the distro's initscript?
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| 21:42 | If we use our own and delay the boot for 2 secs, it's not a good thing if we don't also recommend ntpd
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| 21:43 | <Q-FUNK> ok. the only thing remaining is to get plymouth to splash with spacefun and then we're production-ready :)
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| 21:44 | <alkisg> plymouth requires plymouth:force-splash in ubuntu, when init=/sbin/init-ltsp is set in the command line, not sure if it needs it on debian too
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| 21:45 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so, i don't think i'm going to pull together the ltsp-update-kernels side of the changes today, but i think i'll upload anyways. i think it overall makes it easier to do the ltsp-update-kernels side of things later anyways.
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| 21:46 | * vagrantc has only infrequently messed with splash screens | |
| 21:46 | <alkisg> vagrantc: sounds good, I can help with ltsp-update-kernels later on, in a couple of weeks if you want
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| 21:46 | <Q-FUNK> good question. on ubuntu, it just worked out of the box. on debian, one detail I remember is that graphic spalshes don't work if plymouth-x11 isn't installed.
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| 21:46 | <alkisg> On Ubuntu we also install plymouth in the initramfs in order for it to start a bit sooner
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| 21:47 | <Q-FUNK> on debian too
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| 21:47 | <vagrantc> alkisg: the ntp code just configures /etc/ntp.conf and /etc/default/ntpdate appropriately
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| 21:47 | <alkisg> Cool
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| 21:47 | <Q-FUNK> the only thing is that if plymouth-x11 is not installed, debian reverts to the text splash.
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| 21:47 | <alkisg> So it shouldn't cause boot delays, unless services depend on the ntp service being started first
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| 21:47 | <Q-FUNK> on ubuntu, IIRC, the x11 plug-in is included in the plymouth package itself.
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| 21:48 | <vagrantc> alkisg: well, i think the common code may run ntpdate directly ... but the Debian "overlay" just configures the confiiguration files.
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| 21:48 | alkisg: it's run as if-up hooks...
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| 21:48 | <alkisg> Ah, ok
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| 21:49 | <||cw> if-up hooks are awesome
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| 21:49 | <alkisg> Did we fix the client to fire up if-up events?
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| 21:49 | <vagrantc> alkisg: it appears to do so
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| 21:50 | !vagrant-todo
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| 21:50 | <ltsp_> vagrantc: vagrant-todo: (#1) pxelinux configuration, or (#2) pxemenus, or (#3) ltsp-tool.conf.d
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| 21:50 | <vagrantc> oh yes, ltsp-tool.conf.d ...
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| 21:50 | <alkisg> It was broken some time ago, at least on Ubuntu, but I think with the RM_SYSTEM_SERVICES change it was fixed
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| 21:51 | <vagrantc> !forget vagrant-todo 1
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| 21:51 | <ltsp_> vagrantc: The operation succeeded.
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| 21:53 | <vagrantc> i need to figure out how to allow for KERNEL_PREFIX="vmlinuz-* vmlinux-*"
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| 21:53 | no, i'll put that off for later.
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| 21:53 | oh, it still uses vmlinuz symlinks...
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| 21:54 | wonder if it shouldn't default to ifcpu64 detection
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| 21:54 | <alkisg> We don't need multiple KERNEL_PREFIXes, only distro overrides for a single one, right?
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| 21:54 | <vagrantc> alkisg: for debian, some arches have vmlinuz-* and some would have vmlinux-*
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| 21:54 | <alkisg> Meh
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| 21:54 | <vagrantc> alkisg: and there may be some arches with either
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| 21:54 | alkisg: just to preclude your next idea :P
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| 21:55 | <alkisg> vmlinu[z|x]-* ?
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| 21:55 | <vagrantc> if that works, sure.
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| 21:55 | <alkisg> Or even vmlinu?-* if it doesn't, but I think it will work
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| 21:55 | $ touch /tmp/vmlinuz /tmp/vmlinux
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| 21:55 | $ find /tmp -name 'vmlinu[x|z]'
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| 21:55 | /tmp/vmlinuz
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| 21:55 | /tmp/vmlinux
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| 21:56 | <vagrantc> of course the version sorting for both will come out a little odd
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| 21:56 | <alkisg> Although then sorting will be a mess
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| 21:56 | :)
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| 21:57 | <vagrantc> actually, i think it's just mips/mipsel/powerpc that have vmlinux these days
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| 21:57 | <alkisg> Ah we'll just need better code to remove the prefix
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| 21:58 | Hey it works! $ x=vmlinux-3.0
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| 21:58 | $ echo ${x#vmlinu[x|z]-}
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| 21:58 | 3.0
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| 21:58 | So it might even work by just putting [x|z] in the prefix with no other changes
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| 21:59 | (the sorting too, I mean)
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| 22:02 | stgraber: should I `syncpackage epoptes -d unstable` ?
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| 22:02 | <vagrantc> alkisg: it seemed to work just by specifying LIST_KERNELS="vmlinu[z|x]-*"
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| 22:03 | * alkisg did something right there then ;) | |
| 22:03 | <vagrantc> no other code changes
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| 22:03 | <alkisg> vagrantc: wait, without setting the PREFIX?
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| 22:03 | * alkisg checks which of the sorting functions was committed.. | |
| 22:04 | <vagrantc> alkisg: er, KERNEL_PREFIX="vmlinu[z|x]-*"
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| 22:04 | Parker955 is now known as Parker955_Away | |
| 22:04 | <alkisg> Right
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| 22:04 | <vagrantc> no other code changes needed
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| 22:04 | <alkisg> Yup, thought so
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| 22:05 | <vagrantc> of course, pxelinux still has vmlinuz hardcoded, and powerpc has vmlinux hardcoded, but i *think* that's actually appropriate.
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| 22:06 | <stgraber> alkisg: yep
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| 22:06 | <alkisg> ty
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| 22:07 | <Q-FUNK> sudo ln -s /usr/lib/ipxe/undionly.kpxe nbi.img
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| 22:08 | <alkisg> Etherboot doesn't keep the networking stack though, does it?
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| 22:08 | (too soon for syncing with unstable, will try again in the morning)
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| 22:10 | <Q-FUNK> ok, so it seems that ipxe works for one client, but not for the other. ther other one just plain cannot load anything else than an old-fashion tagged-elf file using plain old etherbboot.
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| 22:10 | <alkisg> Q-FUNK: did you try pointing them to pxelinux.0 ?
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| 22:10 | <Q-FUNK> alkisg: read again :)
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| 22:11 | <alkisg> Q-FUNK: well I read that the client has etherboot but I wasn't sure if you did try pxelinux.0 because etherboot supports it
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| 22:11 | <Q-FUNK> the ipxe blob flat out cannot be loaded by the older of these two clients. full stop.
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| 22:11 | <alkisg> Q-FUNK: I'm not talking about ipxe though
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| 22:11 | I'm talking about pxelinux.0
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| 22:12 | <Q-FUNK> not etherboot as in gnu etherboot, the ancestor of gpxe. etherboot as in, plain old primitive netboot that can barely do bootp.
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| 22:12 | <alkisg> Ah, ok, that's what I missed
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| 22:12 | Then an elf image of ipxe would help there
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| 22:13 | <Q-FUNK> not if there isn't a real bios. again, this old client has a mere bootloader. it barely initializes the video and lauches bootp.
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| 22:13 | <alkisg> ipxe doesn't need vesa bios extensios
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| 22:13 | *ns
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| 22:14 | <Q-FUNK> do we have a tagged elf version of the ipxe blob?
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| 22:14 | <alkisg> Not that I know of
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| 22:14 | Should be easy to build one though
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| 22:15 | <Q-FUNK> http://paste.debian.net/174744/
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| 22:15 | this is what debian ships, for instance.
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| 22:16 | <alkisg> You'd need to wrap e.g. ipxe.lkrn with mkelfimage or mknbi or whatever else does the job
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| 22:16 | <Q-FUNK> linking the undi-only blob to nbi.img did the trick for one bios-based device that only does bootp. it chainloaded ipxe.
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| 22:16 | <alkisg> That bios then kept the networking stack after downloading the image, not all of them do so
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| 22:17 | <Q-FUNK> it didn't do the trick for the other device with a hand-hacked bootloaded that only provides a couple of the usual bios interrupts.
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| 22:17 | <alkisg> I don't think the BIOS is related
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| 22:17 | It's a matter of keeping around the networking stack or not
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| 22:18 | <Q-FUNK> we could try :) I'm not closing the door to this at all. just as long as it works, I'm a happy camper :)
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| 22:19 | <alkisg> I do think we should remove nbi support from ltsp though, as it hasn't worked for years and noone appeared to step up and test + solve it
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| 22:19 | Providing a wrapper in a separate package sounds saner
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| 22:23 | <Q-FUNK> this dbe60 would be a good test case.
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| 22:24 | <alkisg> ...if you ship it oversees, I could test it :P
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| 22:24 | *seas
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| 22:25 | <Q-FUNK> alkisg: where are you at, again?
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| 22:26 | <alkisg> Greece, just joking, the shipping would cost more than the box
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| 22:26 | <Q-FUNK> yup, especially considering how they sell those dbe60 for... was it 10eur/each nowadays.
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| 22:31 | <alkisg> 64MB RAM? It wouldn't work nowadays even if it booted...
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| 22:32 | * alkisg uses an HP T5000 something with 128 for the lowest supported client test case | |
| 22:32 | <Q-FUNK> that's what I was afraid of. IIRC they could fit up to 128mb in them, but they never produced any with that much in them.
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| 22:32 | <Q-FUNK> the dbe61a however has 128mb in the basic configuration.
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| 22:34 | but it's somewhat more expensive also, because it has a Geode LX in it.
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