IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 10 February 2016 (all times are UTC)
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| 09:09 | <blondie> ahoi
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| 09:10 | alkisg, I still can't get the wireless ap to work, guess I'll have to study the basics of networking more... :)
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| 09:11 | Another little problem, I'm experimenting with Linux Mint MATE, for some reason the MintMenu doesn't load on the clients
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| 09:11 | maybe this is more a Mint related problem
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| 09:12 | though it seems the menu suddenly starts working after installing epoptes
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| 09:13 | I'd say 'mysteriously'
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| 09:14 | <alkisg> blondie: if you added the greek schools ppa, that fixed the menu
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| 09:14 | I've fixed the menu issues in newer ltsp versions, and uploaded them to that ppa
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| 09:15 | <blondie> ah okay great!
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| 10:39 | <blondie> alkisg, I added the ppa to the server & chroot and updated both + the image but still no Mint menu here
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| 10:39 | <alkisg> blondie: didn't you say it started working after epoptes? Did it stop again now/
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| 10:39 | ?
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| 10:42 | <blondie> this is another install from scratch
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| 10:42 | I have the working one on another hdd
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| 10:42 | <alkisg> If you install from scratch, then try not to use mint
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| 10:43 | Its packaging is very broken
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| 10:43 | <blondie> ok
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| 10:43 | <alkisg> Try to use ubuntu mate with mint menu instead
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| 10:43 | <blondie> yep
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| 10:43 | <alkisg> This is almost the same as mint, but with proper packaging
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| 10:43 | bennabiy added the mint support in ltsp, but I don't know if he supports bugs that users find
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| 10:43 | While mate etc are properly supported
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| 10:44 | <blondie> i could also go with 16.04 but there's some bug with dhcp-server
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| 10:44 | Since I won't need a stable production environment until April
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| 10:46 | Will it be possible to upgrade Ubuntu MATE 14.04 to 16.04? I think Trusty MATE is not official Ubuntu release
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| 10:47 | <alkisg> I think it'll be possible to upgrade, yes
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| 10:48 | And you can use dnsmasq if isc-dhcp has issues
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| 10:48 | * alkisg is on 16.04 currently... | |
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| 12:15 | <blondie_> Hmm. Should I use gigabit nic for lan and 10/100 for wan or the other way around?
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| 12:15 | We connect to internet via LTE usb stick
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| 12:16 | and we have approx. 10 fat clients
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| 12:52 | <Hyperbyte> blondie_, why would you deliberately choose 10/100 instead of gigabit?
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| 12:52 | Anyway, question is what uses more bandwith..... the LTE usb stick or 10 LTSP fat clients?
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| 12:53 | My guess would be the LTSP clients. I don't think your LTE stick will go above 100mbit
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| 12:55 | <blondie_> I'm working with donated recycled parts and currently we have only 10/100 cards
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| 12:55 | + the gigabit cards on mobo
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| 12:59 | but yeah you're probably right
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| 13:00 | time's up. :)
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| 13:36 | <bennabiy> alkisg: it is an issue with the package python-xlib. When it got updated to -trusty3 it broke mintmenu.
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| 14:26 | <alkisg> bennabiy: mint packaging in general is very broken, I think it's best to instruct people to prefer mate instead of mint...
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| 14:26 | <bennabiy> I have no problem with that... I still run mint, and will support it as best as I can until I stop using it.
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| 14:26 | I just know the issue and the solution
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| 14:27 | for now
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| 14:27 | <alkisg> Sure, it's just my own opinion on the matter, what my own advice to people is...
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| 14:28 | When contents of .deb packages are modified by mint, they'll be overwritten on upgrades, so it'll break, so I suggest to people not to use such bad packages, nothing more
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| 14:28 | If people want to use them, they can do so; I just want to warn them that it's broken
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| 14:38 | <bennabiy> I am considering switching to Ubuntu mate in the future, but as of yet, have not had reason to.
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| 14:38 | alkisg: can you give me an example of the "bad packaging" you are talking about?
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| 16:48 | <alkisg> bennabiy: sure, e.g. run this: dpkg -S /etc/os-release
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| 16:48 | It should say "base-files"
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| 16:49 | That means that file belongs to that package
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| 16:49 | Yet some mint postinst or cd generation script goes and writes to that file
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| 16:50 | So then when an update comes to base-files, it overwrites the mint changes, and it's no longer marked as mint anymore
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| 16:50 | Such actions are prohibited by the debian policy, so mint is clearly broken
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| 16:51 | The minimum they could do would be to dpkg-divert that file so that they can then ship their own override, but they don't know or care enough about packaging to do things properly, so they break
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| 16:55 | If you remember, when you tried to get mint support in ltsp, you bumped into a lot of such issues, because they didn't bother to do it properly and become a "flavor" and they tried to be branded as their own "distro" by just sed'ing through files, which is a very broken way to do it
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| 17:49 | <bennabiy> alkisg: thank you.
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| 17:51 | <bennabiy> In mint 17.3 os-release contains Ubuntu 14.04.3 LTS ID=ubuntu etc...
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| 17:52 | <alkisg> bennabiy: that's probably because you updated it and the mint file got overwritten :)
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| 17:52 | <bennabiy> Probably not
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| 17:52 | <alkisg> Try with the live cd
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| 17:53 | <bennabiy> I will have to try it later
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| 17:53 | I need to get back to baking
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| 17:56 | <alkisg> bennabiy: check /etc/lsb-release
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| 17:56 | That's also in base-files, it should say "mint" until overwritten with a newer version
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| 17:56 | ...when it will say "ubuntu"
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| 17:58 | <bennabiy> yes, it says LinuxMint
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| 17:59 | <alkisg> If I run `apt-get dist-upgrade`, I get prompted about that file by dpkg
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| 17:59 | It says it's been modified and it asks if I want the package maintainer's version or my own version
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| 18:00 | <bennabiy> yes, and I choose to keep my version
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| 18:00 | <alkisg> And since I didn't modify the file myself, I select the package maintainer's version and I get ubuntu there
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| 18:00 | That's against debian policy
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| 18:00 | Packages are not allowed to mess with conffiles of other packages
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| 18:01 | Other files affected (for base-files only) are /etc/issue.net and /etc/issue
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| 18:01 | <bennabiy> yes
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| 18:02 | <alkisg> Mate doesn't do that, it respects debian policy
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| 18:03 | (packages that don't respect debian policy aren't accepted in the debian archives)
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| 18:15 | <alkisg> Here, ask vagrantc how he feels about mint shipping its own version of /etc/lsb-release with LinuxMint inside it, and then base-files prompts to put it back to e.g. Ubuntu on updates... :)
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| 18:16 | * alkisg guesses vagrantc isn't very fond of packages messing with other package's conffiles... :D | |
| 18:21 | <vagrantc> why doesn't mint ship it's own package for that instead?
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| 18:22 | ship it under and alternate package name, conflict with the other package...
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| 18:23 | <alkisg> My guess is that they don't have time to read about packaging and they use a "create-my-live-cd" script
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| 18:23 | I think that script isn't even public, only the mint developer has it
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| 18:26 | <bennabiy> I can post this conversation to the devs there.
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| 18:27 | <vagrantc> what's the fundamental issue? there's no proper way to distinguish between linuxmint and ubuntu?
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| 18:28 | * vagrantc also recalls some bug about LMDE trying to install ubuntu | |
| 18:28 | <vagrantc> just to make matters worse...
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| 18:29 | <alkisg> The conversation started with a user trying ltsp on mint, and he had some repository+upgrade issues, prompts etc, so I suggested to him to prefer mate instead :)
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| 18:29 | About those base-files ...files, linuxmint could just be an ubuntu flavor, it doesn't have to pretend to be a distro...
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| 18:30 | <vagrantc> it's kind of awkwardly in the middle, from the looks of it
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| 18:30 | they have enough of their own packages that it's not really an ubuntu flavor
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| 18:30 | or at least, used to
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| 18:31 | <bennabiy> I agree, it is somewhere in the middle
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| 18:31 | <vagrantc> and the packages aren't included in ubuntu, which is the real killer
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| 18:31 | <bennabiy> Most of the development support they do is on the Cinnamon DE
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| 18:31 | yes
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| 18:31 | <alkisg> How many packages do they have different than mate+cinnamon or mate+metacity?
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| 18:32 | I think the problem is that they don't want to take the time and properly package it, it's easier to create a "create-my-live-cd" script than all the proper packages that would replace that
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| 18:33 | <vagrantc> is the "don't upgrade kernels" feature/bug implemented in a package, or just some files that get installed by magic?
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| 18:33 | <alkisg> I face the same problem with sch-scripts, and that's why I haven't yet internationalized it, because I understand it's hackish and not a proper solution
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| 18:36 | <bennabiy> it is implemented through mintUpdate
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| 18:36 | afaik
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| 18:36 | you can push past it easily with an apt-get upgrade / dist-upgrade
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| 18:36 | It actually includes a kernel chooser, pick your kernel, and also see any known regressions associated
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| 18:38 | <vagrantc> which is what?
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| 18:47 | <bennabiy> I think it is all packaged with mintUpdate
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| 18:49 | <alkisg> "package" is a different concept than "script"
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| 18:49 | If mintupdate was a package, it would be able to make it to the debian repositories
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| 18:50 | If it's a hackish method to maintain updates, that doesn't integrate with apt etc, then it's not really a package
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| 18:50 | <bennabiy> it is a python script
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| 18:51 | <alkisg> AFAIK Mint has good code but really lame packaging
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| 18:51 | It shouldn't try to be a distro, there are whole DEs that are not distros, mint doesn't offer that many new things that can justify it being a distro
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| 18:52 | E.g. devs at raspbian created a distro because they had to support armv6
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| 18:52 | But they try to put each of their general-purpose solutions in debian
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| 18:53 | mint doesn't try that... mate does try it
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| 18:53 | <||cw> what's the advantage of Mint now that mate and cinnamon are in other distros?
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| 18:54 | <bennabiy> looks and more stable code base?
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| 18:55 | * alkisg agrees with "looks" and completely disagrees with "stable" :) | |
| 18:56 | <||cw> so mate on ubuntu looks different than mate on mint?
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| 18:56 | <bennabiy> alkisg: just to clarify, mint+mate , not mint or mate
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| 18:56 | yes
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| 18:56 | they have put a fair bit into the UI polish
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| 18:57 | as well as menu and updater
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| 18:57 | <||cw> hm, screen shots don't look that different to me
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| 18:58 | <bennabiy> It is similar, but more polished in the theming
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| 18:58 | I guess you could import mint's theming into ubuntu-mate and have it look similar
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| 18:58 | <||cw> k, i tend to look at applications, not themes so...
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| 18:59 | <bennabiy> applications, they have forked a few of them... I thnk they have done disks, perhaps some others... cannot say for certain right now
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| 18:59 | <alkisg> The proper way to fork is like mate did
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| 18:59 | They changed all the program names, e.g. gedit => pluma
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| 19:00 | So then both gedit and pluma are in the archives
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| 19:00 | No need to hackish overrides, or apt pinning, or blocking etc
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| 19:00 | Mint needs its own repositories mainly because it's not doing it properly
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| 19:01 | <alkisg> So mate is more stable because it's doing it right, it won't break with regular usage
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| 19:01 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i generally agree ... but #ltsp probably isn't going to change the status quo on that
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| 19:02 | <alkisg> Sure, but I'll keep suggesting mate to ltsp users that have issues with mint, and since bennabiy asked me I took the opportunity to explain why I do suggest that...
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| 19:03 | * vagrantc nods | |
| 19:03 | <vagrantc> and if you really want cinnamon, that's available too...
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| 19:03 | <alkisg> Yup, I refer to mate because it plays better with thin clients
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| 19:03 | <vagrantc> haven't tried it in a while, never really was fond of it ...
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| 19:04 | <alkisg> cinnamon is fine for fat clients
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| 19:04 | <vagrantc> yeah
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| 19:04 | alkisg: how's progress of ltsp/ldm/epoptes going in ubuntu?
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| 19:04 | <alkisg> Let me check...
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| 19:05 | <vagrantc> might actually have an LTS release that doesn't require using a ppa?
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| 19:05 | <bennabiy> I am not offended. I personally like mint, and appreciate the developers hard work on it, and especially their early support for mate before it was fashionable.
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| 19:05 | from them...
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| 19:05 | <glebihan> bennabiy, he is completely mistaken about what happens during an upgrade btw, the files don't get overwritten and still refer to mint
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| 19:05 | <bennabiy> if done through mintupdate
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| 19:05 | <bennabiy> his beef is that it breaks debian policy
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| 19:05 | <glebihan> nope, doesn't matter how it's done
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| 19:05 | <glebihan> there's a trigger in mintsystem that'll regenerate the correct files after an upgrade no matter how the upgrade is done
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| 19:06 | anyway
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| 19:07 | <alkisg> I could also put an inotify hook to update packages in /etc
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| 19:07 | ...it would still be hackish, since the proper way is for each package to modify its own conffiles
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| 19:07 | * vagrantc doesn't see how that solves anything | |
| 19:07 | <alkisg> Yup, anyway
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| 19:07 | <bennabiy> If someone is using linuxmint and wants to run LTSP, then I have allowed for them to do it...
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| 19:07 | <alkisg> bennabiy: sure, I never meant that you did something wrong or that you didn't help users etc
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| 19:08 | And at that time, mate wasn't really available
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| 19:08 | * vagrantc suspects linuxmint devs could spend more time at what they're good at by integrating into a distro... | |
| 19:08 | <bennabiy> probably, but I do not think they see it that way :) Difference in philosophy
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| 19:08 | * vagrantc nods | |
| 19:09 | <alkisg> So, LDM has reached Xenial, but not LTSP. I wonder if that was because in the past it had an Ubuntu diff...
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| 19:09 | stgraber: does it need a manual sync?
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| 19:09 | <vagrantc> and free software licenses allow everyone to shoot themselves in the foot with whatever tool they choose :)
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| 19:09 | <alkisg> stgraber: Should I try to sync it? Did you move the edubuntu bits elsewhere?
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| 19:09 | <stgraber> alkisg: it still does have a delta, the edubuntu stuff is still there so it needs merging
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| 19:10 | should be a trivial delta to re-apply though
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| 19:10 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i also did another upload to fix an unrelated issue, maybe the version changing did something?
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| 19:10 | <alkisg> No I think it's the delta issue preventing autosync
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| 19:10 | <vagrantc> i thought the plan was to forget about the delta?
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| 19:10 | and move forward, into the future...
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| 19:10 | <stgraber> the plan is to move the delta to some Edubuntu package
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| 19:10 | <alkisg> stgraber: could you do the sync, since I haven't used edubuntu in a while and I wouldn't know about the delta?
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| 19:10 | <stgraber> but that involves me or highvoltage having the time to do so
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| 19:11 | <vagrantc> hrm.
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| 19:11 | <bennabiy> off to baking
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| 19:11 | <alkisg> stgraber: the ltsp version in xenial is completely broken, so the merging does need to somehow happen before release...
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| 19:11 | <vagrantc> and now we're back to where ltsp doesn't get updated because of lack of time by the people who need to
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| 19:11 | <stgraber> alkisg: yeah, merging should take me a minute, doing that now
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| 19:12 | <alkisg> Thanks :)
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| 19:15 | vagrantc, stgraber, highvoltage, ogra_, mgariepy, btw my zatab tablet screen glass has broken a bit, does anyone have that tablet bricked so that I could buy his screen glass? :)
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| 19:15 | <stgraber> the glass panel on mine is dead too :)
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| 19:15 | <highvoltage> alkisg: stgraber broke his on the first time he used it
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| 19:15 | <alkisg> Hehe
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| 19:16 | <highvoltage> alkisg: mine just has a bunch of tiny scratches on it, I'll give it a software wipe and send it over, email me your address
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| 19:17 | <alkisg> highvoltage: it still works? don't send it then if it's still functional, mine is broken but it's still in one piece...
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| 19:18 | <highvoltage> alkisg: it still works but I have enough tablets and not using that one at all. if you really want it broken... I can fix that ;)
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| 19:18 | <stgraber> alkisg: just did the merge, remaining delta is just the Edubuntu thing: http://paste.ubuntu.com/15010480/
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| 19:18 | <alkisg> highvoltage: thanks a lot, I'll send you the address :)
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| 19:18 | <stgraber> uploaded
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| 19:19 | <alkisg> stgraber: cool! It's been a long time since ubuntu had a working ltsp, it's nice that 16.04 will ship a recent one
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| 19:31 | Hmm sometimes `ltsp-update-image -c /` pops a nautilus window for the /tmp/XXXX mount... nautilus became tooo smart, I should probably put a mask to make it non-accessible by the current user...
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| 19:41 | <Hyperbyte> highvoltage, +1
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