IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 5 September 2011 (all times are UTC)
| 00:00 | <TheMatrix3000> hey parket
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| 00:00 | parker*
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| 00:00 | <Parker955> ehh matrix
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| 00:01 | <TheMatrix3000> how would you go about restarting gnome-panel on ltsp
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| 00:01 | for fat clients and thin clients
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| 00:01 | <Parker955> no clue :)
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| 00:01 | hell no idea why I'm in here since I only played with ltsp for like 2 nights haha
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| 00:01 | <TheMatrix3000> ha
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| 08:50 | <vlt> Hello. On gdm I get "Keine Antwort des Server. Neustart ..." (translates to "server not responding. restart ...") after one specific user tries to login. Access via ssh on the LTSP server is possible. Any idea how to debug this?
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| 08:52 | <alkisg> vlt: "after one specific user tries to login." => with a specific user? or that happens with all users?
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| 08:53 | <vlt> alkisg: Not all users. But at least three users I tried.
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| 08:53 | <alkisg> vlt: so there's at least one user that *can* login?
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| 08:53 | <vlt> alkisg: Yes.
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| 08:54 | alkisg: At least 4, actually.
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| 08:54 | <alkisg> That's very strange. If no user could log in it would make sense, but not now.
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| 08:54 | See your server's /var/log/auth.log, do you see failed login entries?
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| 08:54 | <vlt> alkisg: I tried different clients. No difference.
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| 08:55 | <alkisg> vlt: and you're *SURE* that some users can login, and other users cannot?
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| 08:55 | Or is it possible that no user can login?
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| 08:57 | <vlt> alkisg: I'm *SURE* that some users can login, even on that client.
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| 08:57 | <alkisg> OK
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| 08:57 | (11:54:41 πμ) alkisg: See your server's /var/log/auth.log, do you see failed login entries?
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| 08:57 | <vlt> alkisg: "getent passwd" lists the users, and they can login via ssh
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| 08:57 | <alkisg> I'm not talking about that
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| 08:58 | I'm asking this: can at least one user login with ldm now?
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| 08:58 | <vlt> alkisg: Yes.
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| 08:58 | <alkisg> OK
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| 08:58 | Go on with checking auth.log
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| 08:58 | <vlt> alkisg: I meant, even the users that fail can login via ssh.
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| 08:58 | <alkisg> I understand
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| 08:58 | Do you see failed login entries in the server's /var/log/auth.log?
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| 08:59 | (or whatever else your distro uses for authentication logging)
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| 08:59 | Which distro/version are you using btw?
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| 09:00 | <vlt> alkisg: Ubuntu 10.04 LTS
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| 09:00 | alkisg: auth.log: http://pastebin.com/ttJK3ZY0
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| 09:01 | <alkisg> Sep 5 10:46:56 glitter sshd[10557]: Failed password for mw from 192.168.5.205 port 38310 ssh2
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| 09:01 | That means that the user with the problem has given the wrong password
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| 09:01 | Maybe your keyboard layout is incorrect
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| 09:01 | Or maybe you have numlock on/off
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| 09:01 | Try to type the password where the username is
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| 09:01 | So that you see what you're typing
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| 09:02 | <vlt> alkisg: No swapped keys, the passwd contains no special chars.
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| 09:02 | <alkisg> The message is clear; the password is wrong
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| 09:02 | Failed password, it says
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| 09:03 | <vlt> alkisg: Wrong passwords for at least three users? Using the same non-special-char passwds via ssh works fine.
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| 09:05 | <alkisg> That message comes from sshd, not from LTSP
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| 09:05 | So, sshd tells you the password has failed
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| 09:06 | I'd try typing the password in the username box if I were you. Or, temporarily setting the password to 12345678.
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| 09:07 | <vlt> alkisg: I did.
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| 09:08 | <alkisg> And? Still no clue as to why this is happenning?
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| 09:09 | Let's make it simpler:
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| 09:09 | !SCREEN_02
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| 09:09 | <ltsp> alkisg: SCREEN_02: to get a root shell on an Ubuntu thin client: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ClientTroubleshooting#Using%20a%20shell%20SCREEN
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| 09:09 | <alkisg> Get a local shell on the client as it's described above
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| 09:09 | From there, give this command: ssh <user>@server
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| 09:09 | Change <user> to an existing username
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| 09:10 | Leave server exactly as it is, the word "server", don't replace it
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| 09:10 | See if you can login from there.
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| 09:10 | That's what ldm does, it just calls ssh
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| 09:11 | So if you can login from the local client shell, then you should be able to login with ldm too.
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| 09:11 | <vlt> alkisg: I already tried this.
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| 09:11 | <alkisg> And?
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| 09:12 | <vlt> Works.
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| 09:12 | But still not the ldm login.
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| 09:12 | <alkisg> Then the only thing I can think of, is that you gave me the wrong log
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| 09:12 | <vlt> alkisg: It's the correct log.
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| 09:12 | <alkisg> I.e. that the users successfully login, and X crashes, and you just gave me a failed login attempt that only happened once
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| 09:13 | <vlt> SURE
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| 09:13 | <alkisg> So. tail /var/log/auth.log now,
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| 09:13 | then try to login
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| 09:13 | then again: tail /var/log/auth.log,
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| 09:13 | and see if you got a failed password again
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| 09:13 | * vlt runs "tail -f" | |
| 09:14 | <alkisg> OK, go ahead and try to login from ldm
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| 09:14 | <alkisg> If you're sure that you get a failed password from ldm, but not from ssh on the local terminal, and yet your keyboard settings is not the problem, then I don't know what is.
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| 09:14 | That would mean that LDM changes the password before sending it to ssh
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| 09:15 | Which I don't believe is the case.
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| 09:16 | <vlt> alkisg: auth.log from "tail -f": http://pastebin.com/XrZL5LRa -- You can see me logging out from the client successfully before trying ldm login.
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| 09:17 | <alkisg> Sep 5 11:14:34 glitter sshd[11788]: pam_unix(sshd:auth): authentication failure; logname= uid=0 euid=0 tty=ssh ruser= rhost=192.168.5.205 user=af
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| 09:17 | Why is there an authentication failure there?
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| 09:17 | (before the password failure from ldm below)
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| 09:18 | <vlt> nfc
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| 09:18 | <alkisg> Also. When you tried ssh <user>@server from the local terminal on the ltsp client (it's very important that you try that from the ltsp client and not from another machine), did you get any warnings or error messages?
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| 09:18 | Or info messages? I see you have "verbose=on", maybe you got some output while logging in?
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| 09:20 | <vlt> alkisg: This is logging in from the client via ssh as the very same user: http://pastebin.com/hkBYrYRt
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| 09:23 | <alkisg> And your output was like this, i.e. exactly 2 lines without anything between them?
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| 09:23 | $ ssh af@server
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| 09:23 | af@server's password:
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| 09:23 | prompt >
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| 09:23 | Because LDM parses ssh output
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| 09:24 | So if anything is different there, it would confuse LDM
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| 09:24 | Also, check /var/log/ldm.log on the client
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| 09:27 | Sep 5 11:19:39 glitter sshd[12146]: pam_unix(sshd:account): account af has password changed in future
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| 09:27 | ^^^ This is also an indication of some problem
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| 09:28 | <vlt> alkisg: I get the passwd in future msg for more than 60 users on 8 different LTSP servers. Usually no problem at all.
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| 09:29 | <alkisg> Well, if all that you're saying is correct, and we don't have communication problems (english isn't my native language), then it means that LDM has a bug and changes the password before sending it to ssh, which is something I haven't heard of again.
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| 09:30 | So I don't know how to help - but I'm still believing that we lost something on our troubleshooting process.
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| 09:30 | <vlt> alkisg: I'm sure about that. That's why my initial question was about debugging options.
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| 09:31 | <alkisg> Change the ldm code and have it write the password to the log file
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| 09:31 | I don't think we have debugging info for that
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| 09:38 | <alkisg> apt-get source ldm, then change file sshutils.c
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| 09:38 | write(fd, ldm.password, strlen(ldm.password));
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| 09:38 | <alkisg> After that put a loginfo call, to write the password to the log
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| 09:38 | Compile, put it in the chroot + update image
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| 09:39 | I still don't think the problem is in LDM, though.
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| 09:56 | <vlt> alkisg: I rebooted one client (for the sixth time) and now logging was possible. I have absolutely no idea what could have changed now. :/
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| 09:56 | *logging _in_
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| 09:56 | <zamba> in soviet russia /unq
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| 09:56 | hhehe
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| 09:57 | sorry about that :)
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| 09:58 | <vlt> zamba: "/unq"?
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| 10:11 | <zamba> short for /unquery
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| 10:11 | in irssi
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| 10:54 | <Hyperbyte> vlt: http://forum.soft32.com/linux/unix_chkpwd-4275-account-root-password-changed-future-ftopict506099.html
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| 10:56 | <alkisg> I think vlt is using some mysql backend for passwords, maybe samba?
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| 10:56 | But in any case, ssh from SCREEN_02 shouldn't ever behave differently than LDM, as LDM uses ssh
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| 12:17 | <Hyperbyte> Google has really awesome homepage today
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| 13:03 | <xavierb> Hello, to reduce my network traffic, I would like to disable remote syslog. I don't see any option for that in lts.conf.
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| 13:11 | <alkisg> xavierb: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/697387
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| 13:12 | I.e. set SYSLOG=False in lts.conf
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| 13:18 | <xavierb> alkis: thanks!
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| 13:20 | <muppis> Foe curiosity, how much that reduces?
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| 13:20 | <xavierb> why SYSLOG is true by default?
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| 13:20 | <muppis> For..
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| 13:21 | <alkisg> xavierb: SYSLOG is undocumented, imho it should be eliminated from the code
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| 13:21 | <xavierb> as one need to setup also the server rsyslog.conf, I don't see why default SYSLOG is true
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| 13:21 | <alkisg> I just proposed a workaround in the bug report
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| 13:22 | Good point, do mention that in the bug report too
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| 13:22 | xavierb: did you check the network packets? Does the client try to send logs to the server, even if the server isn't listening?
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| 13:23 | Or the client stops trying in this case?
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| 13:23 | <xavierb> alkisg: I agree with your workaround
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| 13:24 | alkisg: no, I didn't yet, but I need to enable ryslog reception for debugging one problematic thin-client
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| 13:24 | <alkisg> Because if the client stops trying, and no network traffic is generated, then the current defaults are reasonable
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| 13:25 | (it also saves client RAM, as the local syslog would be stored in the tmpfs otherwise)
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| 13:26 | <xavierb> you mean: if the client stops trying, it should dont even generate local syslog?
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| 13:27 | <alkisg> Well, if the configuration file tells the client to log on the server, and the server isn't listening, I don't see why the client would log locally
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| 13:27 | Haven't tested though
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| 13:30 | <xavierb> I've just ssh into one client: it does some local log.
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| 13:30 | <xavierb> Now we need an option to disable local log :)
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| 13:30 | (and save ram)
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| 13:42 | <TanzJack> hi
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| 13:43 | anybody there?
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| 13:43 | <xavierb> hello
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| 13:44 | <TanzJack> hi how is it?
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| 13:45 | <xavierb> fine :)
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| 13:46 | <alkisg> xavierb: btw, I'm not sure that /etc/rsyslog.d/ltsp.conf actually override the ubuntu defaults in /etc/rsyslog.d/50-defaults, so it's possible that whatever LTSP writes in that file, doesn't matter
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| 13:47 | I tried renaming it to 60-ltsp, and the local logging stopped :)
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| 13:47 | More testing is needed...
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| 13:48 | <xavierb> alkisg: I'm using Debian, there is nothing in /etc/rsyslog.d except ltsp.conf
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| 13:48 | <alkisg> Ah
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| 13:48 | So... why do you see local logging?!
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| 13:48 | Are the dates on those files recent?
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| 13:49 | <xavierb> may be I've checked too fast. I think it's only first boot and X log, sorry
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| 13:50 | <alkisg> No problem, you just helped me find out that I need to file a bug about it in Ubuntu :D
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| 13:51 | <xavierb> Now, one just need to update the documentation: ir rsyslog doesn't accept remote logging, no logs are sent to the network nor local, am I right?
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| 13:53 | <TanzJack> guess what? A problem with LTSP drove me here. A really simple one I guess but I really dont find the answer: I need my clients to run a script directly after login (want to synch the home folder with a fix template every time somebody logs in). WHERE do I put it that it will be executed? I tried "/etc/init.d/" and "/usr/share/ldm/rc.d/" (both in chroot) such as "/etc/X11/Xsession.d/" on the server; the latest got me the script executed when I log in ON th
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| 14:00 | <xavierb> TanzJack: the home folder is on the server
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| 14:01 | <alkisg> TanzJack: this might help you: http://www.mail-archive.com/ltsp-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net/msg39777.html
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| 14:02 | Copying the files needs to be done at the very start of the session, before other scripts have started running
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| 14:04 | <xavierb> alkisg: can't this be done on the server? I mean the server knows when someone log in.
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| 14:04 | <alkisg> xavierb: sure, I've also a pam-based implementation for this
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| 14:04 | But you can't do it from e.g. /etc/xdg/autostart, it runs too late
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| 14:05 | So if you erased/synced stuff at that point, you'd delete .xauthority, .gconfd and other needeed files
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| 14:06 | <xavierb> and in /etc/profile.d ?
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| 14:07 | <alkisg> No idea when distros source that
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| 14:07 | Isn't that only sourced from bash?
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| 14:09 | <xavierb> yes. I forgot that the shell runned by the user at login is on the thin-client
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| 14:10 | yup, I'm wrong again: user launch a shell on the server at login (at least with kde4)
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| 14:10 | <alkisg> I tried exporting a variable in /etc/profile.d, and then "ssh user@localhost", and the variable wasn't exported
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| 14:10 | So it doesn't look like a robust method anyway
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| 14:12 | Ah it needs a .sh extension
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| 14:12 | Anyway, I'm not sure if that's early enough e.g. for .xauthority
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| 14:14 | <xavierb> don't know
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| 14:15 | <xavierb> alkisg: I need to quit, thanks for your help
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| 14:15 | bye
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| 14:15 | <alkisg> bb
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| 14:19 | <xavierb> alkisg: I forgot something. While you are changing SYSLOG script, woudn't it be good to change default port? because rsyslog documentation says that TCP and UDP ports should be different and that TCP port 514 is often used by RPC.
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| 14:21 | see http://www.rsyslog.com/using-the-syslog-receiver-module/ and http://www.rsyslog.com/sending-messages-to-a-remote-syslog-server/
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| 16:50 | <dptech> Hello Where can i found ltsp cluster tuto ? thanks
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| 17:01 | <garymc> hi my ltsp server has lost internet connection and I cant work out whats wrong
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| 17:24 | <TheMatrix3000> hey all
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| 17:24 | anyone here doing a memtest in the pxeboot with ltsp? that can lend me advice on how to do it
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| 17:26 | <vagrantc> there are some tricks
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| 17:27 | i seem to recall adding some support for memtest to the code a while ago...
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| 17:29 | TheMatrix3000: there's code in ltsp to add memtest entries to the pxe boot menu
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| 17:31 | <TheMatrix3000> where is it?
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| 17:31 | lol
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| 17:31 | I need it to test thin clients
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| 17:32 | <vagrantc> it's well hidden
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| 17:32 | <TheMatrix3000> i know
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| 17:32 | otherwise I would find it
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| 17:32 | <vagrantc> what distro & version you running? what version of ltsp?
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| 17:33 | <TheMatrix3000> It's kinda like FAT_RAM_THRESHOLD
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| 17:33 | 11.04
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| 17:33 | <vagrantc> no, this is much more difficult to find than FAT_RAM_THRESHOLD
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| 17:34 | ok, the code's been in there since mid-2009, so you should be good...
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| 17:34 | <TheMatrix3000> Are you trying to say you have no idea where it is?
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| 17:35 | <vagrantc> it's complicated enough that it's not just simply enabling a feature in lts.conf, so i'm reading the code to try to *help* you :P
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| 17:35 | if you'd rather read it yourself, look in update-kernels
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| 17:35 | <TheMatrix3000> ah, haha, nice
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| 17:35 | I don't even know where to see that lol
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| 17:36 | <vagrantc> in the source, it's in ltsp-trunk/client/update-kernels
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| 17:36 | and in the chroot, maybe /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ltsp/update-kernels
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| 17:37 | <TheMatrix3000> ill try looking too
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| 17:37 | two heads are better than oen
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| 17:37 | <vagrantc> ok, i think in order to usefully get memtest working, you'd need a boot menu... in /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf ... set PXELINUX_DEFAULT=menu (or vesamenu)
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| 17:37 | <TheMatrix3000> found it
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| 17:37 | lol
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| 17:38 | whats menu vs vesamenu
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| 17:39 | <vagrantc> one uses VESA graphics, the other just plain console features
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| 17:39 | in my experience, the occasional machine doesn't work with vesamenu, but i'm guessing neewer ones support it well enough (i deal with a lot of old hardware)
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| 17:40 | it looks purtier
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| 17:40 | allegedly
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| 17:40 | <TheMatrix3000> then run an ltsp-update-kernels
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| 17:40 | <vagrantc> not done yet
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| 17:40 | <TheMatrix3000> ah lol
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| 17:40 | <vagrantc> then, i guess, for some bizarre reason, you need to manually copy memtest86+.bin into place
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| 17:40 | but it's not that simple!
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| 17:41 | you need to copy it without the .bin extension, or you may run into bugs with pxelinux
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| 17:41 | and by into place, i mean: /opt/ltsp/i386/boot
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| 17:41 | <TheMatrix3000> where is memtest86+.bin
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| 17:42 | <vagrantc> i think it was because of http://bugs.debian.org/546219 that i got stymied on how to implement it properly
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| 17:42 | <TheMatrix3000> ha nbm
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| 17:42 | nvm
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| 17:42 | im dumb
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| 17:42 | i can find it in /boot/
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| 17:42 | lol
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| 17:42 | <vagrantc> you can install it on your server or in the chroot
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| 17:42 | but wait, there's more ...
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| 17:43 | sudo ltsp-chroot /usr/share/ltsp/update-kernels ; sudo ltsp-update-kernels
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| 17:43 | then, if you're lucky, this will work.
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| 17:43 | * vagrantc remembers when ltsp-update-kernels ran /usr/share/ltsp/update-kernels automatically | |
| 17:44 | <vagrantc> but we disabled that for some reason i don't quite remember ... maybe it was even me
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| 17:44 | <TheMatrix3000> i need to remove the .bin from memtest86+ right?
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| 17:45 | <vagrantc> cp /boot/memtest86+.bin /opt/ltsp/i386/boot/memtest86+
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| 17:45 | for example
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| 17:45 | <TheMatrix3000> memtest is already in my boot part of the chroot
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| 17:45 | so let me cp it as without .bin
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| 17:45 | <vagrantc> you could also just install memtest86+ into the chroot, and symlink it
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| 17:46 | symlink would be better, just in case you ever upgraded the version in the chroot, you wouldn't have to remember to copy it again
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| 17:47 | <TheMatrix3000> ha it worked
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| 17:47 | <vagrantc> ah, good
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| 17:47 | <TheMatrix3000> ah menu looks gay
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| 17:47 | using visamenu
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| 17:48 | <TheMatrix3000> ah, oops
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| 17:48 | didn't click out of my window and closed it
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| 17:48 | <vagrantc> a happy menu, how chipper
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| 17:49 | <TheMatrix3000> lets see what visa looks like
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| 17:49 | ooo
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| 17:49 | could not find kernel image
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| 17:49 | visamenu
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| 17:50 | <vagrantc> vesamenu
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| 17:51 | <TheMatrix3000> ha that's better
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| 17:51 | i wonder how to customize it
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| 17:52 | <vagrantc> others know better than i... i mostly go with functional, and leavy pretty to others
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| 17:52 | <TheMatrix3000> lol
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| 17:53 | thank you for the help
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| 18:26 | <dptech> Hello Where can i found ltsp cluster tuto ? thanks
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| 18:40 | <petre> dptech, have you looked at https://www.ltsp-cluster.org/?
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| 18:43 | <dptech> Yes, i'd like found other informations...
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| 20:59 | <TheMatrix3000> running fat-client having issues with gnome panel displaying
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| 20:59 | how do i fix it?
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| 21:02 | <vagrantc> this is not my forte, but you'll probably need to give more detailed information before someoen could help
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| 21:04 | <TheMatrix3000> gnome-panel simply isn't running
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| 21:04 | when a user logs in on a fat client
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| 21:20 | <Hyperbyte> TheMatrix3000, we've done this before.
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| 21:21 | <TheMatrix3000> ok ill try searching logs
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| 21:21 | <Hyperbyte> You told me about gnome-panel, I asked you what you see when you type 'gnome-panel' in a terminal
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| 21:21 | And then you never got back to me.
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| 21:21 | <TheMatrix3000> oh i never saw that
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| 21:21 | i must of left the office or something
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| 21:21 | one second
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| 22:04 | <markit> hi, I'm try to decode the english of this page in some points: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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| 22:04 | what is the meaning of "Home directories mounted on login with sshfs unless the solution. "
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| 22:05 | i can't get the "unless the solution." part
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| 22:05 | (I'm not native english speaker)
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| 22:05 | maybe some expert of FAT installation can help
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| 22:06 | also "The NBD root on the thin client version simply has to get the client to and SSH/LDM logon screen"
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| 22:06 | <markit> what does it mean "get the client to"?
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| 22:11 | <vagrantc> markit: it isn't the best written english, if that makes you feel any better
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| 22:11 | <markit> vagrantc: lol, thanks, I would love to understand and improve (editing the wiki), but I'm not sure about the real intention of the writer
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| 22:12 | is funny having an howto in "crypting english" :)
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| 22:12 | <vagrantc> the "unless the solution." part seems like they were going to say more
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| 22:12 | <markit> really
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| 22:12 | <vagrantc> and just didn't finish
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| 22:13 | i think "get the client to an SSH/LDM logon screen" is what the other meant to say
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| 22:13 | <markit> maybe instead of "unless" was "while the thin solution uses..." I don't know, what does it use?
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| 22:13 | (I'm trying my first fat installation on a test VM
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| 22:13 | )
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| 22:14 | <vagrantc> markit: there is an option to use NFS_HOMEDIRS or some such
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| 22:14 | so maybe it was talking about using sshfs (the default) vs. NFS home dirs.
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| 22:14 | <markit> ok, I'm to ignorant to edit that
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| 22:14 | <vagrantc> some applications have issues with sshfs homedirs
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| 22:14 | <markit> so "unless NFS_HOMEDIRS is specified"
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| 22:15 | but should be about the differences among thin and fat
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| 22:15 | <vagrantc> i'm not sure on the exact name for the option, but yes, i think that's what they were getting at
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| 22:15 | <markit> let's wait alksig :)
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| 22:16 | <vagrantc> well, with a true thin client, there's no homedir mounted locally ... but most thin clients have support for localapps available by default, so then the difference between thin and fat is ... blurry
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| 22:16 | <markit> vagrantc: do you use fat config?
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| 22:16 | <vagrantc> i've been meaning to explore it more for years, but haven't put it into production yet
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| 22:17 | the biggest annoyance is with screensavers/screenlockers and other apps that need to authenticate to the server.
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| 22:17 | because by default, there's no valid authentication with a localapp or fatclient
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| 22:17 | <markit> urgh, I thought was effortless, explain to me
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| 22:18 | I know nothing about the inner working of all this stuff :(
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| 22:18 | so if screen locks and you are asked for the password, you are lost?
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| 22:18 | <vagrantc> well, there's no authentication necessary for most setups, but if your screensaver locks the screen and is runnin g locally, there's no local password for it to authenticate against.
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| 22:19 | <vagrantc> all the authentication is done on the server.
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| 22:19 | <markit> isn't possible to modify pam or some other (I really don't know) config to autenticate to the server?
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| 22:19 | ok, so the whole system should "redirect" authentication to the server
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| 22:19 | included screensaver
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| 22:19 | no?
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| 22:19 | <vagrantc> the simplest workaround is to figure out a way to run ... hah! ... remoteapps for things like screensavers on the server.
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| 22:20 | * markit scaried like hell | |
| 22:20 | <vagrantc> markit: there is work to get the local pam stuff to authenticate properly, but it's not quite ready
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| 22:20 | <markit> wondering how is that GNU is so weak on this stuff... should be available since long long time
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| 22:21 | <vagrantc> scotty has been working on libpam-ssh, which would be able to use the existing setup to authenticate
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| 22:21 | <markit> M$ has AD, GNU has... a mess
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| 22:21 | <vagrantc> markit: free software can implement it in a million ways... and so it gets implemented in a million mostly incompatible ways.
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| 22:21 | <markit> never used myself, but the magic word for this stuff usually is "LDAP"
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| 22:21 | <markit> lol, sad but true
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| 22:22 | is scotty still working on it? expected time for "it's ready"?
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| 22:22 | <vagrantc> yeah, some people have configured ldap and such to ahdnle authentication, but we've been holding out for this libpam-ssh thing, since it would require considerably less configuration for the administrator
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| 22:23 | <markit> I love this part :)
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| 22:23 | <vagrantc> but the timeframe has proven ... slow
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| 22:23 | hopefully they'll get it thoroughly tested at the hackfest i think near the end of october
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| 22:24 | <markit> we should have schools give money or, if high school, programmers to ltsp project
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| 22:24 | they have all the savings, we have all the burden, is not fair
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| 22:25 | <vagrantc> probably should get some google summer of code projects next year for ltsp
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| 22:25 | as much as i'm no fan of google, that is a really cool program
| |
| 22:25 | <markit> really, better than nothing
| |
| 22:25 | if you consider the HUGE amount of money google gets
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| 22:26 | in any case, I consider that without google we will be lost much faster
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| 22:26 | i.e. webm standard or phone market will be killed asap without them
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| 22:27 | but the best would be that the users will give back to FOSS
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| 22:27 | instead of hoping that "someone else" will
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| 22:27 | wondering with FAT how much the lan is stressed
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| 22:27 | <vagrantc> we've got to provide (easy) avenues for them to contribute.
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| 22:28 | markit: i just talked with someone who implemented fat clients at a local school, and he said a faiirly modest server with gigabit, 100-megabit network could handle well over 100 clients without any noticeable load
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| 22:28 | <markit> I've the feeling tha people a) don't value freedom as an added value b) don't realize that is not "free as in beer" but they should contribute
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| 22:29 | IMPOSSIBLE
| |
| 22:29 | <vagrantc> yes, people really don't get the importance of freedom
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| 22:29 | <markit> or my users are all "power hungry", or there is something strange
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| 22:29 | <vagrantc> markit: this was fat clients, with some very impressive fat clients ...
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| 22:30 | i don't know the exact details, but it sounds good to me
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| 22:30 | <markit> 100 are really many.. I've a 18pc lab "thin" that put my 8GB quad core on it's knee with libreoffice impress and some graphics pasted in
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| 22:30 | <Hyperbyte> Yes, but thin clients generally use a lot more bandwith than fat clients...
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| 22:31 | <markit> while people here talsk about "12MB ram for atom clients" and "4GB server" for 100.000 pc ;P
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| 22:31 | <vagrantc> when you're only serving up the filesystem, and if they have enough ram, the fat client will only hit the filesystem once per file loaded (due to "disk" caching)
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| 22:31 | <markit> mmm I see, thought was the contrary
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| 22:31 | "only screen" vs "all data and programs and swap"
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| 22:31 | <vagrantc> yes, but with fatclients, all the CPU happens on the client
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| 22:32 | transmitting video over the wire is expensive, and fat clients don't do that part :)
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| 22:32 | <Hyperbyte> markit, try and imagine for a second... one screen, refresh rate 60hz (so 60 images per second), resolution of 1280x1024, 24-bit color depth
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| 22:32 | <markit> yes, but instead of a local 50MB/s hd you have a 50MB/s lan to share with 100 other clients...
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| 22:32 | <Hyperbyte> markit, that, vs, transferring files for say OpenOffice across network.
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| 22:33 | <markit> Hyperbyte: well, screen is not refreshed at 60hz, X-Window sends you only the part has changed, when changed
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| 22:33 | and IF changed
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| 22:33 | <vagrantc> it's transferring the interactive video of using the application vs. just downloading the applicationc and running it locally
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| 22:34 | <markit> ok, I'll do some test soon, happy if you are right (I think you are, just not 100% convinced, lol)
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| 22:34 | <vagrantc> the interactivity is another point ... if the download happens in 1 second, or 3 seconds, it's not a huge deal, but if your mouse click takes 1-3 seconds, you'll notice the difference
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| 22:34 | <Hyperbyte> markit, still, even with only changed areas, it adds up...
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| 22:35 | <markit> vagrantc: good point
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| 22:36 | also we had old recycled pc vs brand new, 3Ghz, icore 3, 4GB ram clients :)
| |
| 22:36 | <vagrantc> you'd think that should make a difference :)
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| 22:36 | <markit> also like simply thin clients you notice the difference (1gb nic, well supported intel 4500video)
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| 22:37 | I could build a cluster instead, lol
| |
| 22:39 | <vagrantc> just make a cluster out of screensaver time
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| 22:39 | screensavers are such a waste of energy ... they usually use more CPU than fullscreen video
| |
| 22:40 | and with a network of thin clients ... ugh.
| |
| 22:44 | <markit> well, I've seen some windows program that grab screensaver images from internet as well, changing it each minute or so
| |
| 22:45 | just to eath your bandwidth too
| |
| 22:45 | but users are so happy :)
| |
| 22:46 | <vagrantc> well, good chattinng ... but i've got to enjoy thiss sun while it lasts
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| 22:47 | * vagrantc waves | |
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| 22:56 | <markit> bye vagrantc, see you
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