IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 1 February 2017 (all times are UTC)
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| 07:45 | <alkisg> !cheap-client
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| 07:45 | <ltsp`> cheap-client: http://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-mini-pc/pp_343636.html
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| 07:47 | <alkisg> !learn cheap-client as https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-arrival-Beelink-Pocket-Z83-Windows-10-Mini-PC-Z8300-64bit-1-84GHz-2GB-RAM-32GB/1871240_32640039781.html
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| 07:47 | <ltsp`> The operation succeeded.
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| 14:48 | <rlyshw> alkisg: any way to get these clients without win10 pre-installed?
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| 15:10 | <alkisg> rlyshw: afaik no, but why would that matter? you can just format...
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| 15:10 | You could probably get other clients without win10 though
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| 15:10 | <rlyshw> I always feel like a no-OS system would be cheaper, no?
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| 15:10 | <alkisg> I don't think china win10 increase the box price :D
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| 15:10 | Nope, not in china
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| 15:10 | <rlyshw> Ahhhh right haha
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| 15:11 | <alkisg> After all it's less than $100
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| 15:11 | How much cheaper can it get, for atom+2gb ram+64 dom...
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| 15:11 | +gigabit etc etc
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| 15:11 | usb3, wifi, bluetooth...
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| 15:11 | <rlyshw> Yeah that's true, just looking for the cheapest possible thing to convince my boss to go in on a few of those, right after he bought 4 more Raspberry Pis for this project.
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| 15:11 | <alkisg> Haha you can set up an accident... just step on the rpis
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| 15:12 | Or you can tell him that the software support for the rpis will cost 300 euros
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| 15:12 | <rlyshw> Yeah exactly that's basically what I'm saying in the ticket write up right now
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| 15:12 | <alkisg> ...so the new boxes will be cheaper :D
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| 15:12 | <rlyshw> The 10 hrs of debugging work I put in for the Pis is just not worth the end-result.
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| 15:13 | <alkisg> Especially if the end result is "not able to use a web browser"
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| 15:13 | <rlyshw> yeah once you start up firefox it just slows right down. Not worth it.
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| 15:14 | <alkisg> IMHO, being able to watch full screen youtube is the minimum for desktop pc specs
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| 15:14 | rpis can't do that
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| 15:15 | <rlyshw> Yeah exactly. I mean, our clients are running on old sunrays atm so the Pis wouldn't be much worse, but I don't think it's worth the effort to move from sunrays to something of equal or lesser utility.
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| 15:15 | <alkisg> Yup, I feel the same way for schools here, which use p3 or p4 as thin clients, and some government people want them to switch to rpis,
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| 15:15 | ...which would actually be a bit slower... :(
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| 15:16 | And I stopped ltsp support for rpis just to prohibit them to do that
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| 15:16 | <rlyshw> Good move, you should maybe edit the Ubuntu wiki about raspberry pis, then
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| 15:16 | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/RaspberryPi
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| 15:16 | <alkisg> Yup, that's my page. I put "it doesn't run in 16.04" on top, check it
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| 15:17 | <rlyshw> ah that needs to be larger and more demanding
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| 15:17 | <alkisg> Haha
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| 15:17 | <rlyshw> "This won't work you should stop now"
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| 15:17 | <alkisg> Maybe "throw the pis while it's still early!!!"
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| 15:18 | <ogra_> alkisg, hmm, is that the supported pi kernel you refer to ? (linx-raspi2 package)
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| 15:18 | *linux
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| 15:19 | <alkisg> ogra_: yes, if i remember correctly... it's been months
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| 15:19 | ubuntu-mate actually doesn't use the supported kernel, that's why it boots
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| 15:20 | <ogra_> weird, we support it on ubuntu-core and there is have vc4 fully running with kms and everything using this kernel
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| 15:20 | though there are no pi3 classic (apt) images IIRC
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| 15:20 | <alkisg> ogra_: what can I say, check the linked bug report, noone replied there
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| 15:21 | rainbow screen is all we got
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| 15:21 | <ogra_> well, because there is no supported image
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| 15:21 | <alkisg> It's just a fat file system
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| 15:21 | Putting the files there from the packages should be enough...
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| 15:21 | Even if there's no shipped image
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| 15:22 | <ogra_> well, the packages mentioned in the bug arent even in the archive
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| 15:22 | thats all some PPA stuff
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| 15:22 | <alkisg> I tried with stuff in the archive
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| 15:22 | <ogra_> from random people
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| 15:22 | <alkisg> The reporter got a bit confused with his many tests
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| 15:23 | <ogra_> i know the pi2 server image from releases.u.c. definitely works ... though i think the only images fully supporting kms and vc4 are the snappy ones
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| 15:24 | (snappy has the advantage that you can always use upstream instead of being bound to the archive, so bootloader and uboot are always on the latest versions)
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| 15:24 | <alkisg> I tried with the 16.04 one: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-raspi2/4.4.0-1009.10
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| 15:24 | (among others)
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| 15:24 | And with the stock firmware... don't remember the name off-hand...
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| 15:25 | <ogra_> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/16.04.1/release/
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| 15:25 | there is the pi2 server image
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| 15:25 | and that gets tested regulary afaik
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| 15:25 | <alkisg> In real hardware, or in vm?
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| 15:25 | <ogra_> vm ?
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| 15:26 | <alkisg> qemu
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| 15:26 | <ogra_> hwo would you do that
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| 15:26 | <alkisg> kvm has arm emulation
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| 15:26 | <ogra_> is there a pi qemu machine implementation ?
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| 15:26 | arm, sure ... but pi specifically ??
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| 15:26 | <alkisg> that's how we do ltsp-chroot in pi chroots
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| 15:26 | No, not pi specifically
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| 15:26 | That's what I'm asking, if they're using that emulation
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| 15:27 | <ogra_> are you talking about qemu-user-static ?
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| 15:27 | <alkisg> It works almost OK for rpi chroots
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| 15:27 | <ogra_> thats only a rootfs emu
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| 15:27 | you cant emulate machines with that
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| 15:27 | so you cant test install images with it
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| 15:27 | <alkisg> You can chroot and run stuff under arm architecture
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| 15:28 | <ogra_> (read: indeed on real HW)
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| 15:28 | <alkisg> Gotcha
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| 15:28 | <ogra_> alkisg, i know i wrote that
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| 15:28 | <alkisg> :)
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| 15:28 | It does emulate an arm processor, doesn't it?
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| 15:28 | <ogra_> not really, it intercepts syscalls and translates them,
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| 15:28 | <alkisg> How does it run binaries then?
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| 15:29 | <ogra_> by translating the syscalls
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| 15:29 | you effectively execute on x86
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| 15:29 | <alkisg> What about the assembly stuff, that doesn't have syscalls?
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| 15:29 | <ogra_> true assembly (and quite a lot of other things) fail
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| 15:29 | <alkisg> A "for" in C gets translated to native arm code, without syscalls
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| 15:29 | So all programs would have native arm code in them
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| 15:30 | <ogra_> thats one of the reasons we never managed to make mono work in that setup
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| 15:30 | <alkisg> syscalls are only a minor portion of the executables
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| 15:30 | <ogra_> mono uses a garbage collector that talks directly to HW ...
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| 15:31 | <alkisg> "qemu-system-arm" emulates cortex-a8 etc
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| 15:31 | <alkisg> That's what they say in the docs
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| 15:31 | <ogra_> right
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| 15:31 | thats the machine emulation
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| 15:31 | <alkisg> I can't imagine how it would work with only syscalls
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| 15:31 | <ogra_> and if the machine you want is implemented in it you can actually test install media on it
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| 15:32 | thats exactly the opposite of qemu-user.static
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| 15:32 | and iirc it comes with like three CPU implementations ... vexpress, beagleboard and beaglebone or some such
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| 15:33 | but nobody implemented rpi to my knowledge
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| 15:33 | (and that would be tricky given the closed nature of the HW)
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| 15:33 | <alkisg> The native code would be arm in all cases, wouldn't it?
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| 15:33 | That's how qemu-system-arm would run it
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| 15:34 | It wouldn't be able to boot a "pi", but it would be able to run a pi chroot
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| 15:34 | <ogra_> qemu-system-arm spawns a full CPU emulation
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| 15:34 | while qemu-user-static tarnslates syscalls and hands the rest of stuff to libc
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| 15:34 | <alkisg> A hello world is 100 native arm commands, and one syscall
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| 15:34 | <ogra_> yes
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| 15:35 | <alkisg> What executes the 100 native arm commands?
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| 15:35 | *instructions?
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| 15:35 | <ogra_> libc
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| 15:35 | <alkisg> libc knows to translate from arm to x86?
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| 15:35 | isn't that qemu's work?
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| 15:35 | <ogra_> qemu does
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| 15:36 | http://paste.ubuntu.com/23905739/
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| 15:36 | <alkisg> /usr/bin/qemu-arm-static
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| 15:36 | That's what's running when I chroot to the rpi chroot
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| 15:36 | <ogra_> thats the list of machines you could emulate with qemu-system-arm
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| 15:37 | alkisg, yes, i know ... it then calls out to the kernels binfmt-misc module
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| 15:37 | <alkisg> I'm guessing that means the "system emulation", while the chroot is pretty much the same, i.e. it doesn't matter if it's one board or the other
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| 15:37 | <ogra_> and translates every instruction
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| 15:37 | <alkisg> Right
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| 15:37 | That's what I thought; syscalls are not enough
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| 15:37 | <ogra_> the chroot is not the same since not everything is translated
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| 15:38 | you will find a lot of unsupported syscalls and instructions
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| 15:38 | <alkisg> You don't have a "boot process", with gpu firmware etc
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| 15:38 | <ogra_> it works for the most common use cases
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| 15:38 | y<ou dont have a HW emulation at all
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| 15:38 | <alkisg> Just a cpu, understood
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| 15:38 | <ogra_> only a translation layer
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| 15:38 | and a fake CPU
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| 15:39 | your proc is even the x86 one ... there is no translation of any machine specific bits
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| 15:39 | <alkisg> So back to the initial question, yeah I was thinking that they could be using that to automate tests, while you said no, they're using real hw, which is fine
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| 15:39 | <ogra_> only code execution
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| 15:39 | right
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| 15:39 | if they wanted to actually test it they would ghave to use -system-arm
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| 15:39 | <alkisg> So I guess we could test if it works with the most recent releases
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| 15:40 | * alkisg is so disappointed in rpis though, that he can't even make decent media players from them... | |
| 15:40 | <ogra_> use libreelec ;)
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| 15:40 | i run my TV on it :)
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| 15:41 | (supports DVBSat so you can actually watch Tv and use it for streaming as well)
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| 15:41 | <alkisg> Nah... for example, the kids want to google "some movie online" and watch it, kodi/elec etc can't do that
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| 15:41 | <ogra_> huh ?
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| 15:41 | sure it can
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| 15:41 | matter of the right addons :)
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| 15:42 | <alkisg> They go to "some.website.com", and watch movies via flash player
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| 15:42 | No flash in rpi
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| 15:42 | Also, even if the site supports html5, rpi is too slow to play it
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| 15:42 | <ogra_> ah, right ... html5 works fine though
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| 15:42 | <alkisg> No gpu-accelerated plugins there either
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| 15:42 | Nope, html5 sucks too
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| 15:42 | * ogra_ watches FHD stuff in html5 all the time | |
| 15:42 | <alkisg> youtube.com/html5 ==> full screen => 2 fps
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| 15:42 | With firefox and rpi?
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| 15:42 | <ogra_> streaming the latest series etc
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| 15:42 | nah
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| 15:43 | with kodi and plugins
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| 15:43 | <alkisg> Right, so it's not html5
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| 15:43 | <ogra_> why would i use firefox on an embedded system
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| 15:43 | <alkisg> It's native media player with streaming
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| 15:43 | Because you can't find "some move with greek subs" in youtube
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| 15:43 | <ogra_> its html5 based streming
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| 15:43 | just no browser involved
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| 15:43 | <alkisg> You can only find it in "some.site.com/html5 player with ads"
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| 15:43 | Right, so you wouldn't be able to see all those movies
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| 15:44 | <ogra_> right, and if you have a proper plugin it will cut out the ads
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| 15:44 | <alkisg> You can't have a plugin for "random site"
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| 15:44 | You need to write one
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| 15:44 | <ogra_> if the site hard-demands flash you are screwed inded
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| 15:44 | <alkisg> And if there are 100 sites, you'll spend 100 hours to see 1 movie
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| 15:44 | <ogra_> but nione of the sites i use for streaming do
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| 15:45 | <alkisg> Well,all the sites that my kids use, can't be played with kodi/elec etc
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| 15:45 | <ogra_> weird
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| 15:45 | <alkisg> and of course can't be played with firefox in rpi
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| 15:45 | (with more than 2 fps)
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| 15:45 | <ogra_> given how dead flash is supposed to be nowadays :)
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| 15:45 | <alkisg> They may be html5
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| 15:45 | That still doesn't make them playable with kodi
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| 15:46 | You'd need a site parsing plugin, for random sites...
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| 15:46 | <ogra_> well, get rid of firefox ... thats really nothing for a pi
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| 15:46 | right
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| 15:46 | <alkisg> Nah, I got rid of the rpis, no need to abandon everything just to make it run on lame hardware
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| 15:46 | :D
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| 15:46 | <ogra_> firefox will streasm html5 fully in SW on a pi
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| 15:47 | thats completely useless
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| 15:47 | <alkisg> Right, firefox does cpu decoding, not gpu decoding
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| 15:47 | <ogra_> yeah
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| 15:47 | nothing the pi is designed for
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| 15:47 | <alkisg> I could use a pentium 3 with gpu decoding then
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| 15:47 | No need to use a pi
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| 15:47 | <ogra_> yeah :)
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| 15:49 | <alkisg> It's like "buy this small pentium 3, and we hope the programs will use the gpu to make it run faster! do help us! spend 1000 hours in making your use case work with our limited hardware!"
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| 15:49 | ..no thanks :D
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| 15:50 | quad core atom, 2 gb ram, intel graphics card, 64 gb dom, gigabit lan, wifi, bluetooth => in the same price as the rpi
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| 15:50 | ...why would I ever bother with rpi then...
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| 15:54 | At some point, it's possible that firefox will implement html5 video decoding in rpi with the gpu... at that point, it'll be somewhat usable
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| 16:00 | <ogra_> well, the atmo most likely has a fan
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| 16:00 | *atom
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| 16:01 | * ogra_ doesnt want fans in the living room | |
| 16:01 | <alkisg> No, most are fanless nowadays, in mini pcs
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| 16:01 | <ogra_> ah
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| 16:01 | <alkisg> !cheap-client
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| 16:01 | <ltsp`> cheap-client: (#1) http://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-mini-pc/pp_343636.html, or (#2) https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-arrival-Beelink-Pocket-Z83-Windows-10-Mini-PC-Z8300-64bit-1-84GHz-2GB-RAM-32GB/1871240_32640039781.html
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| 16:01 | <ogra_> i havent touched x86 in a long time
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| 16:01 | <alkisg> Check the second one there
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| 16:08 | * markit takes note | |
| 16:10 | <markit> btw I would love 4GB ram (should cost really few $ more)
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| 16:31 | <markit> lol, incredible in the site about a pc: "Free Operating System: Default installed our activated OEM cracked version(not genuine) Win7 or Win8 or Win10 English for free"
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| 16:31 | shameless
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| 18:04 | <gvy> ogra_, baytrail chips can do fanless
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| 18:05 | * gvy touches e2k these days though | |
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