IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 29 July 2014 (all times are UTC)
| 00:00 | <vagrantc> so, it really depends on exactly what you're doing with the vpn, how the vpn is normally configured, etc.
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| 00:01 | <Guest51018> I'll have to give fat-clients a try. Would I be able to "manage" them as easily as thin clients? say modify/update images, /etc/skel?
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| 00:01 | btw, thank you for your help!!
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| 00:03 | <vagrantc> the homedirs are exported from the server with fatclients, so sure.
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| 00:04 | updating images is a little harder, as every time you install an application, you needto update the images.
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| 00:04 | with thin clients, you simply install the imag on the server, no need to update the image.
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| 00:05 | er, install the application on the server, no need to update the image with thin clients
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| 00:06 | <bennabiy> vagrantc: LDM_HASHTMP will by my environ variable which will be passed to the script
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| 00:06 | sound good?
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| 00:08 | <Guest51018> hm.. not sure what that is... but I think i'm on the right path now. I'll play around with fat-clients
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| 00:08 | and yes, sounds good! seems like I'd still be able to update fat-client machines from the server, without having to go to each fat-client machine
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| 00:13 | Thank you for your super fast help and response.
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| 00:13 | <vagrantc> Guest51018: good luck!
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| 00:13 | bennabiy: my gut reaction to the variable name isn't good, but heh.
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| 00:14 | gotta run anyways
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| 00:14 | * vagrantc waves | |
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| 06:10 | <alkisg> vagrantc, bennabiy: hi guys
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| 06:11 | * alkisg is mostly on vacations these days, but I'll be online for a couple of days now | |
| 06:12 | <alkisg> I vote for (1) ldm writing the hash to /etc/passwd itself, or if that's not easy, (2) using stdin or an environment variable to pass the hash from ldm to the shell scripts
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| 06:12 | Using a tmp file doesn't sound more secure to me, so I don't see why we should involve disk or network IO...
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| 06:14 | <vagrantc> alkisg: the one advantage i see with the temp file is you can actually remove the file, whereas with the hash in ram, it's floating around in the environment
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| 06:14 | <alkisg> Nevertheless, if a tmp file is to be used, why not created it in /var?
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| 06:14 | <vagrantc> but i guess it's stored in /etc/shadow anywways, so hm.
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| 06:14 | <alkisg> vagrantc: removing the password from the file is the same as removing it from ram
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| 06:15 | I.e. one would have to zero-fill it to be sure it's not re-allocated to other programs, but noone does that...
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| 06:15 | <vagrantc> alkisg: well, the password doesn't have subproccesses where the environment variable might linger
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| 06:15 | <alkisg> We can remove it from the environment
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| 06:15 | Just unset the variable...
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| 06:15 | Then all subprocesses won't inherit it
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| 06:15 | <vagrantc> you can remove it from the environment for subsequent processes, but not processes called before
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| 06:16 | <alkisg> Sure, so we just make sure it's the first script to be called at that phase
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| 06:16 | <vagrantc> but it needs to be called after the localapps stuff, no?
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| 06:17 | <alkisg> How about this?
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| 06:17 | We let localapps do its stuff, and if we find the user entry in shadow, we replace/add the hash from ldm.c
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| 06:18 | Is there a need to pass the hash to shell scripts?
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| 06:18 | <vagrantc> i think it was only a timing issue
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| 06:19 | alkisg: the one problem i see with that is if you have identical usernames with multiple ldm servers for users that should have different passwords...
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| 06:20 | the localapps stuff happens after ldm.c is run...
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| 06:20 | <alkisg> vagrantc: do localapps support that, currently?
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| 06:20 | I think that if you try to do a second login, the first user will be erased
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| 06:21 | <vagrantc> in the sense that it cleans the environment between logins
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| 06:21 | so we'd have to also clean /etc/shadow ...
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| 06:22 | <alkisg> AFAIK for each login, the initial shadow is used
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| 06:22 | So if 2 users try to login, the first user is deleted from passwd, shadow etc
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| 06:23 | OK I see the timing issue, it's because X01-localapps and X95-run-x-session is in the same step, "X"...
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| 06:24 | But, X01-localapps is the script that's supposed to read the hash from stdin or the environment
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| 06:24 | <alkisg> So it can remove it before any subprocesses start
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| 06:28 | vagrantc: for example, now the has is visible from the command line: sed -e "$sedshad" -i /etc/shadow
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| 06:28 | *hash
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| 06:28 | <alkisg> So a local non-root user running `ps` in a loop can see it...
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| 06:29 | <vagrantc> yeah, not so great.
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| 06:29 | <alkisg> And the sedshad variable lingers on for all X* scripts
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| 06:29 | It's not exposed in the environment though, so no subprocesses see it
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| 06:29 | <vagrantc> well, i knew you'd have good commentary on the matter :)
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| 06:33 | <alkisg> OK here's a quick way because as you said, trying to be perfect many times gets no work done at all:
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| 06:33 | LDM writes the hash in a file in /var, so that it can have a standard name
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| 06:33 | (to the same dir where we cache shadow etc)
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| 06:34 | It writes it in "sed" form though, a complete line to be passed to sed with its "-e script, --expression=script" option
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| 06:34 | Sorry, I meant: -f script-file, --file=script-file
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| 06:35 | So, X01-localapps will only need to check if the file is there, and if it is, to call sed -f that-file, and then remove it
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| 06:35 | That way the hash is never available to shell scripts, only sed reads it from that file
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| 06:36 | bennabiy: ^^^
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| 06:37 | /var/cache/ltsp/$USER.passwd or something...
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| 06:39 | <vagrantc> sounds like a reasonable compromise
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| 06:40 | and also backwards compatible
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| 06:40 | i.e. if the file isn't there, nothing changes
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| 06:50 | although for the feature to work, both ldm and ltsp-client* would need to be sufficiently new versions
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| 06:51 | <alkisg> Hmm better if it has a really standard name like /var/cache/ltsp/user.passwd, so that if we have a newer ldm, and an older ltsp that doesn't use/remove that file, we won't have multiple $USER.passwd files staying around indefinately...
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| 06:52 | <vagrantc> passwdhash?
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| 06:53 | user.shadow.sedscript ?
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| 06:54 | <alkisg> The last one without the "user" part somehow... e.g. shadow-sedscript or sedscript.shadow?
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| 06:54 | Or shadow.sed...
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| 07:53 | <alkisg> Yup, .sed is a common extension for sed scripts, e.g. ldm-trunk/po/quot.sed
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| 07:53 | bennabiy: so, /var/cache/ltsp/shadow.sed
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| 07:53 | bbl
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| 11:49 | <bennabiy> alkisg, vagrantc: I read the conversation. Seems good to me, to write to a standard filename, which would be user-unrelated. that is only a few lines of code changed.
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| 11:50 | and it should not be hard to put together the sed script. Alkisg: would that script need to have #!/bin/sed at the top?
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| 11:50 | or just the $s: line
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| 15:42 | <bennabiy> welcome alkisg
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| 15:42 | <alkisg> Hi bennabiy :)
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| 15:43 | Did you see the irc logs?
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| 15:44 | <bennabiy> yes, just about to work on it
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| 15:45 | been helping others troubleshoot why their computer theme is not right
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| 15:45 | after trying to get nvidia-prime working
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| 15:49 | alkisg: when using a sed -f file, does it need to be headed with #!/bin/sed ?
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| 15:49 | no, right?
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| 15:50 | <alkisg> bennabiy: no, but do output a comment that mentions what that file is
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| 15:50 | # Generated by LTSP, to be used by X01-localapps etc etc
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| 15:50 | <bennabiy> sed files respect comments?
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| 15:50 | <alkisg> AFAIK yes, do google it to be sure
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| 15:52 | <bennabiy> ok, let me just get a little code hammered, and we can do a trial run. Did you notice that launchpad was failing to build now?
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| 15:52 | quilt error
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| 15:52 | <alkisg> I saw it but didn't have time to look into it
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| 15:53 | Ask in #launchpad
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| 16:03 | <bennabiy> they are working on it
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| 16:15 | so do we still want to have this opt-outable?
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| 16:26 | <alkisg> bennabiy: I don't mind either way, ask vagrantc...
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| 16:28 | * vagrantc waves | |
| 16:28 | * bennabiy waves | |
| 16:36 | <bennabiy> ok, so hash is now stored in sed file, /var/cache/ltsp/shadow.sed
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| 16:36 | updated rc.d file
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| 16:36 | just pushed
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| 16:39 | time for lunch. See you in a little bit
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| 16:39 | I still need to incorporate the opt out, but trying to determine the best way to do that
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| 16:40 | <bennabiy> Since enable by default, should I just check if LDM_NOHASH is set?
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| 16:40 | or something like that?
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| 16:40 | think about it and let me know
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| 16:40 | <bennabiy> alkisg put that in your court
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| 16:43 | <matt___> hello
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| 17:04 | <bennabiy> back
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| 17:05 | matt___: hello
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| 17:06 | vagrantc: did you see the update?
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| 17:19 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: use boolean_is_true or ! boolean_is_true
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| 17:19 | <bennabiy> I do not see a c definition for that
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| 17:19 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: just checking if it's set gives unexpected behavior if you set to false.
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| 17:20 | <bennabiy> Is that in c? or script?
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| 17:20 | <vagrantc> we definitely had it in both at one point... hrm.
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| 17:21 | * vagrantc wonders if someone switched it all to gboolean | |
| 17:21 | <bennabiy> perhaps
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| 17:21 | I notice a lot of gboolean use
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| 17:21 | but I remember seeing boolean_is_true in scripts
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| 17:22 | <vagrantc> ldm_getenv_bool
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| 17:22 | <bennabiy> ah, there we go
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| 17:22 | where is that defined?
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| 17:23 | <vagrantc> ldminfo.c
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| 17:23 | bennabiy: haven't looked over the updates, but will in a bit
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| 17:25 | <bennabiy> vagrantc: So should I use the variable LDM_NOHASH?
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| 17:26 | to indicate that you need to opt out
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| 17:26 | ?
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| 17:49 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: no hash what? :P
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| 17:49 | bennabiy: i'd recommend LDM_PASSWORD_HASH true/false, defaults to true
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| 17:49 | <bennabiy> Ok
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| 17:49 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: negation variables are mentally difficult
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| 17:50 | <bennabiy> tell me about it
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| 17:50 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: i.e. NO_FOO=true ... NO_FOO=false ... it gets confusing fast.
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| 17:50 | <bennabiy> especially when dealing with boolean compare
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| 17:50 | yes
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| 17:50 | seems launchpad patched the issue now, ldm built fine for me
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| 17:50 | <vagrantc> yay
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| 17:51 | <bennabiy> so, let me just get the boolean patched in, and it should be "good"
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| 17:51 | Quick question, in stgraber's pics of bts, was that you in the debian hat, with long hair?
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| 17:55 | vagrantc: I am thinking I will want to add to the struct definition of SSHInfo to make an entry for ldm_password_hash
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| 17:55 | I will see if I can squeeze it in within hashpass
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| 17:56 | and make sure that the password gets freed, no matter what
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| 17:56 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: i do have a debian hat, and i do have hair.
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| 17:57 | bennabiy: yeah, the password freeing was my last question
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| 17:57 | <bennabiy> http://photos.stgraber.org/Conf/2013-ltsp-by-the-sea/ the first pic
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| 17:58 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: your log entries need to be updated for the new sed script instead of /tmp/foo
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| 17:58 | <bennabiy> ah, I knew I was forgetting something!
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| 17:58 | thank you
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| 17:58 | <vagrantc> can't see the picture, it's all obscured by javascript
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| 17:59 | <bennabiy> haha
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| 17:59 | http://photos.stgraber.org/Conf/2013-ltsp-by-the-sea/i-RzvQjMS/0/X3/DSC07404-X3.jpg
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| 17:59 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: and remove the commented out g_free tuff
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| 17:59 | <bennabiy> will do.
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| 18:02 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: i think you found me, yes. looks like my braids were in disorder
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| 18:02 | <bennabiy> How long has it been since you last cut your hair?
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| 18:03 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: haven't cut it this millenia
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| 18:03 | <bennabiy> heh
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| 18:25 | <matt___> Hello All, i am very new to LTSP and thin clients in general, been working with them off and on a few weeks to get some thin/fat clients working off an existing ubuntu 12.04 server and have had varied success and was wondering if i could pick some of your brains for some help
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| 18:25 | <vagrantc> !ask
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| 18:25 | <ltsp> ask: Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least a full hour after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel.
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| 18:26 | <vagrantc> matt___: ^^ :)
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| 18:29 | <matt___> just trying to see if i can repurpose some old dells sitting around collecting dust
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| 18:31 | <bennabiy> Can they boot to network ?
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| 18:36 | <bennabiy> vagrantc: It seems I am going to have to do some shuffling of booleans anyway, because if it is true by default, but not set, then it would not return true if I did ldm_getenv_bool
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| 18:37 | <matt___> well i guess thye question i have on my head right now, is where does the image pull its user prefrences? for example i was trying to get local apps working and seemed to mess something up and the client wouldn't boot anymore, so i complete removed it and created a new one but it had background that i set
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| 18:37 | so i guess i just know enough to be dangerous
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| 18:43 | <bennabiy> vagrantc: Does that make sense?
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| 18:46 | matt___: can you give a little more details about your environment?
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| 18:57 | <matt___> ubuntu 12.04 server, no gui, install the ltsp-server, using dnsmasq to leave the dhcp in our router, and trying to test thin/fat clients for old dell 2400's
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| 18:58 | pretty much used the walkthrough here UbuntuLTSP/ProxyDHCP
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| 18:59 | and that question was more out of curiosity in how the thin client image works
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| 18:59 | so that i can customize it
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| 19:08 | <bennabiy> vagrantc: I could do a setenv with overwrite disabled, and then test for the env variable
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| 19:08 | that might be the easiest
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| 19:13 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: you can test if it's set, and assume true if not
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| 19:14 | surely there's example code in there...
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| 19:26 | <matt___> ok here is a question, why does a vm boot any size image but the old dell pc gives an error the the exported image is too big?
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| 19:29 | <bennabiy> vagrantc: Here goes... pushed new code
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| 19:29 | matt___: how much ram does it have?
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| 19:30 | <matt___> varies 512m-1.5g
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| 19:30 | <bennabiy> matt___: also, is the image you are exporting the same architecture as the machine booting it?
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| 19:30 | <matt___> i think the one i've tested the most with only has 512
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| 19:30 | i386
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| 19:30 | <bennabiy> matt___: how are you generating the image?
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| 19:31 | and on what type of machine?
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| 19:32 | what architecture is the server?
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| 19:32 | <matt___> 64b
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| 19:33 | <bennabiy> so when you do your ltsp-build-client, are you doing --arch i386 ?
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| 19:36 | <matt___> yes i used the --arch i386
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| 19:37 | and the client will actually boot and i can log into the ldm session and its functional
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| 19:38 | <bennabiy> so which pc is giving the error?
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| 19:39 | <matt___> the server is a xeon quad core 8gb ram w/ a supermicro board so i'm sure the server should run several thin clients right?
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| 19:40 | <bennabiy> yes
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| 19:40 | at least 4 or so
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| 19:40 | but possibly not 4 running youtube and such
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| 19:40 | but for general use, yes
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| 19:40 | more than 4
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| 19:41 | <Andymeows> Hello, are there any special instructions for compiling a new kernel inside a chroot/image?
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| 19:41 | <matt___> yeah its for a small office, i'm just testing to see if turning the old equipment into thin clients will improve performance or if they just need to upgrade hardware
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| 19:47 | <bennabiy> Andymeows: any particular reason you want to recompile a kernel?
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| 19:48 | <Andymeows> bennabiy: my graphics chipset is apparently only supported in 3.16 kernel. (as per the folks in #intel-gfx)
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| 19:50 | <bennabiy> so just pull in the 3.16 kernel
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| 19:50 | no need to compile it
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| 19:50 | which distro?
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| 19:50 | <Andymeows> debian. but the backports version is 3.12
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| 20:06 | <bennabiy> ah, look for vagrantc, he should be able to give you a little more help
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| 20:07 | I need to go now
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| 20:07 | vagrantc: do not merge yet, something is not working right
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| 20:07 | vagrantc: the X script is not actually running now
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| 20:08 | <Andymeows> thank you
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| 20:16 | <bennabiy> vagrantc: for some reason the X01-localapps-ldm is not getting installed in the client when I manually install the ldm and ldm-server packages
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| 20:16 | even if it is in the source.
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| 20:16 | Also, I will need to test why it is not getting the environment variable properly
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| 20:17 | Is there somewhere I need to tell it to look for and get that variable from?
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| 20:17 | I have to go now, but I will be back tomorrow.
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| 20:26 | <championofcyrodi> anyone around?
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| 20:56 | <championofcyrodi> so i hit an error building the chroot inside docker... of course mounting the proc folder
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| 20:56 | mount: permission denied
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| 20:57 | the HOST is CentOS, so I'm not so sure mounting the /proc folder to the container will help
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| 20:58 | reading -> http://tuhrig.de/how-to-know-you-are-inside-a-docker-container/
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| 20:58 | which discusses /proc a bit
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| 21:15 | <championofcyrodi> what does ltsp do with /proc when attempting to build the chroot?
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| 21:59 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: it looks like your latest commit unconditionally sets the variable to true, regardless of it it was already set?
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| 23:28 | <bennabiy> vagrantc: It is not supposed to overwrite the variable if it exists(that is what that last 0 means)
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| 23:29 | But it should set the variable if it is not set.
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| 23:30 | vagrantc: https://developer.gnome.org/glib/stable/glib-Miscellaneous-Utility-Functions.html#g-setenv
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| 23:34 | <bennabiy> vagrantc: I can try it a adifferent way though
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| 23:45 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: ah, perfect, then.
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| 23:45 | <bennabiy> but... something is not working. so I wonder if it is doing what it is supposed to
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| 23:46 | <vagrantc> heh
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| 23:46 | bennabiy: technically, we typically set defaults like that in ltsp_config.d/foo
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| 23:46 | <bennabiy> Although my install also did not put the rc.d script in place, so I wonder if other things are funny about it
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| 23:46 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: i think it would actually be better if it checked if the variable wasn't set, rather than setting the variable.
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| 23:48 | <bennabiy> That is the issue with just doing a ldm_getenv_bool because it returns false for null or false, which is NOT what we want
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| 23:48 | that is partly why I wanted the negative environment to have to set having the opt out as true
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| 23:49 | I was trying to make ldm_getenv_bool to have an environmental set one way or another, but something backfired
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| 23:50 | <vagrantc> bennabiy: just do ldm_getenv_bool || "LDM_PASSWORD_HASH" == ""
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| 23:50 | not exactly sure how to check for that, but that should work.
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| 23:51 | <bennabiy> I think I need to have an intermediary variable, and have it set to true unless ldm_getenv_bool = false
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| 23:51 | <vagrantc> if you can do it in shell, surely it can be done in C :)
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| 23:51 | <bennabiy> yes, just takes longer :)
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| 23:51 | <vagrantc> that could work, too.
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| 23:51 | you already have an intermediary variable...
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| 23:52 | the do_hash ...
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| 23:52 | <bennabiy> not functioning as one yet though
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| 23:53 | <vagrantc> could default to true, check if the variable is set, if it is, set do_hash to the value ldm_getenv_bool sets
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| 23:54 | <bennabiy> yes, something like that. I cannot work on it tonight much more, but tomorrow morning I should be able to
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| 23:54 | <vagrantc> sure, sure.
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| 23:55 | i could also implement it, since i'm the one insisting on it
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| 23:56 | <bennabiy> If you want.
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| 23:56 | I wont say no :)
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| 23:57 | I just did something because no one else was doing anything yet :)
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| 23:58 | Really, if you wanted it to not get set, you could just delete the file through shell, without running sed
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| 23:58 | <vagrantc> yeah, let's stop my feature requests from blocking this...
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| 23:58 | <bennabiy> we should take out the variable check then first
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| 23:58 | <vagrantc> you go ahead and implement a working setup, and i'll implement the variable checks
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| 23:58 | <bennabiy> I vote we handle the opt out at the script level
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| 23:58 | in X01-localapps-ldm
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| 23:59 | <vagrantc> but the main reason to opt out would be to not have the hash floating around
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| 23:59 | so opt out shouldn't generate the hash at all
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| 23:59 | <bennabiy> I know!
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| 23:59 | <vagrantc> so handling it in X01-localapps-ldm seems like a mistake
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| 23:59 | <bennabiy> pass a variable to ssh_hashpass which is either bool true or false
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