IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 18 May 2008 (all times are UTC)
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| 09:18 | <petre> morning all
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| 09:18 | <beakburke> morning
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| 09:19 | <petre> hey beakburke, still got snow on the ground up there?
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| 09:19 | <beakburke> nope, nice yesterday atually
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| 09:19 | they ran a marathon here
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| 09:20 | been nice for a couple weeks
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| 09:24 | <beakburke> was a little windy though
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| 09:24 | how's it down there?
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| 09:25 | <petre> I was in Fargo in March, snowed the whole weekend
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| 09:25 | <beakburke> Yeah, we kind of had a winter redux. It was odd.
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| 09:25 | Twice.
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| 09:25 | <petre> it's nice here finally
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| 09:25 | <beakburke> melted after a couple days though, it was nice again
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| 09:26 | * warren here | |
| 09:29 | <beakburke> Sorry I've been out of touch for a couple weeks. How are things going?
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| 09:30 | <petre> so have I, just finishing up teaching a linux admin class which takes a lot more time than I thought
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| 09:30 | * petre has basically contributed nothing to k12linux | |
| 09:30 | <beakburke> Half a dozen small projects, visited my brother, etc etc.
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| 09:31 | well, I'm here now
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| 09:31 | <petre> I may also have another school adopting ltsp
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| 09:34 | <beakburke> good deal, EL5?
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| 09:34 | or ubuntu or FC9
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| 09:34 | <petre> yes, I'll be showing them EL5
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| 09:35 | although, I hope they won't want it before the fall, so maybe k12linux will be feasible
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| 09:35 | I'll need the summer to get it all setup, as I'm just doing it as a favor
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| 09:36 | <beakburke> yeah, Fedora (once all the kinks are worked out) is the best demo, but I hate having such a short support cycle in a real deployment like that.
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| 09:36 | <petre> even on EL5 somethings are starting to go stale
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| 09:36 | <beakburke> exactly
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| 09:36 | <petre> because they reference some f6 repos
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| 09:37 | getting flash 9 sound working took some hunting
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| 09:37 | <beakburke> The up to date Fedora is a much better desktop experience. It's just that release cycle
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| 09:37 | <petre> I should probably update the wiki page for sound & el5
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| 09:38 | <warren> crap, EL5 has no pulse
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| 09:38 | <beakburke> that would be much appreciated
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| 09:38 | it's dead???
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| 09:38 | i mean i know it's a little stale but ... :D
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| 09:39 | <petre> actually, I installed pulse on el5 as a step toward trying to make flash sound work
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| 09:39 | <beakburke> you do that manually?
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| 09:39 | <petre> the last step, the one afterwhich flash sound started working, was installing libflashsupport
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| 09:40 | <beakburke> i take it that this is a little bit of a hack??
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| 09:40 | <petre> yes, there's a page on the wiki about it that I wrote, mostly because I knew I wouldn't remember how in the future
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| 09:40 | yeah, it's a hack, from the revolutionlinux guys
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| 09:40 | <warren> well
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| 09:40 | fedora 8+ uses pulse and libflashsupport by default
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| 09:40 | you can't use ALSA directly, in fact
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| 09:40 | <petre> and I'm not certain that it was necessary
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| 09:41 | <warren> if you want remote sound, you need pulse
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| 09:41 | <petre> I also had installed Gadi's OSS-ALSA patch
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| 09:41 | <warren> flash itself will output only to ALSA unless you have libflashsupport, then it outputs to whatever libflashsupport is built to do
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| 09:41 | <beakburke> IC
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| 09:41 | <petre> what is libflashsupport built to do?
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| 09:42 | <warren> there's many different forks of libflashsupport
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| 09:42 | use the one from pulseaudio
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| 09:42 | libflashsupport allows flash to output sound in different ways
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| 09:42 | flash itself knows only ALSA
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| 09:42 | <petre> I used the one from the default repos
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| 09:43 | plus freshrpms
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| 09:43 | livna repo seems broken
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| 09:44 | i.e., config file for livna repo
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| 09:44 | <warren> Flash 10 beta released a few days ago has a bug fix for sound
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| 09:44 | it crashes a lot less
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| 09:44 | and it works with pulseaudio's alsa emulation
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| 09:44 | thus it works without libflashsupport on F8+ and F9+ in my testing even without libflashsupport
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| 09:45 | for both normal desktops and LTSP5 thin clients with pulseaudio
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| 09:45 | <petre> cool!
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| 09:45 | <beakburke> maybe it would work on EL5 with pulse then
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| 09:45 | without the libflash hack?
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| 09:48 | <warren> libflash isn't really a hack
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| 09:48 | it was provided by adobe as the official way to do sound in unsupported ways
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| 09:48 | unfortuantely there are too many unstandard forks of it
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| 09:48 | <beakburke> that's what I mean
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| 09:49 | <warren> you not only need pulseaudio
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| 09:49 | but also alsa-plugins-pulseaudio
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| 09:49 | which makes the "default" alsa device pusleaudio itself
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| 09:49 | so apps don't try to use the sound device directly
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| 09:50 | <beakburke> now THAT is a clever bit of work
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| 09:52 | <petre> warren, sorry I haven't done anything for ltsp-server-initialize, but I have what may be a naive question
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| 09:53 | <warren> beakburke: you haven't used F8 or F9? that's been default for a while.
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| 09:53 | <petre> the steps listed in the installation page on the k12linux wiki, steps 7-10...
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| 09:53 | <warren> petre: seems eharrison got it working, with the exception that you need to drop in a working ifcfg-eth0 file yourself
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| 09:53 | yeah, the docs really need expansion
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| 09:53 | I've been really sick lately
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| 09:54 | <petre> I'll can try to help with the docs
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| 09:54 | <beakburke> I got FC9 up and running
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| 09:54 | <petre> what's different about the ifcfg-eth0 file from a stock one? the bridge?
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| 09:54 | <beakburke> but I haven't hadn't messed around with sound yet
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| 09:55 | <warren> beakburke: you shouldn't need to, it should just work
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| 09:55 | petre: there is no stock one
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| 09:55 | petre: system-config-network might create one, but there is no stock
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| 09:55 | <beakburke> I just mean I hadn't tried using anything with sound yet
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| 09:56 | <warren> petre: it is a challenge to write documentation for users to PROPERLY setup their eth interfaces and know which is which, so they wont screw their own networks by attaching the bridge to the wrong interface.
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| 09:57 | OK, it seems none of the other developers are here today
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| 09:57 | and I'm not feeling well
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| 09:57 | <petre> isn't one created duing the f9 install? or do you mean there needs to be a new one in the chroot?
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| 09:57 | <warren> no
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| 09:58 | <beakburke> you need to bond one if the
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| 09:58 | NICs to a real eth interfac
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| 09:58 | <warren> AFAIK you don't get a ifcfg-eth0 these days
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| 09:58 | <beakburke> if you want to boot actual clients
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| 09:58 | <warren> since NetworkManager handles it
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| 09:58 | <beakburke> it's in the network setup part of the wiki
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| 09:59 | I killed network manager since it apparently doesn't handle bridgine
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| 09:59 | <warren> beakburke: yeah, but not nearly enough detail there
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| 09:59 | <beakburke> yeah, sorry
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| 09:59 | <warren> beakburke: yeah, that's the best idea for LTSP servers
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| 09:59 | there is a way to use both network and NetworkManager simultaneously
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| 09:59 | but
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| 09:59 | beakburke: btw, were you the one that requested wiki edit access?
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| 09:59 | <beakburke> I was going to go back and flesh it out a little, just been so busy
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| 09:59 | Yep, that was me
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| 10:00 | <warren> you sent me a request but I don't know what is your fedora account name
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| 10:00 | <beakburke> huh, well it's working
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| 10:00 | <warren> oh
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| 10:00 | ok
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| 10:00 | <beakburke> I edited some of the stuff on https://fedorahosted.org/k12linux/
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| 10:00 | <petre> warren was probably delirious from his illness when he setup beakburke's access
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| 10:01 | <beakburke> most likely
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| 10:01 | <petre> doesn't remember doing it
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| 10:01 | <beakburke> I did add a bunch of stuff in the network setup part
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| 10:01 | <warren> ok, keep it coming
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| 10:03 | <beakburke> that was a while ago
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| 10:05 | I guess I just need to know what you think are the biggest holdups to getting the FC9 build to the level of usability of the old K12LTSP.
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| 10:06 | from what I can tell, almost all the functionality is there now. It's mostly getting the automatic LTSP server setup parts right.
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| 10:06 | basically, the install process
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| 10:06 | <warren> I think mainly documentation has to be improved
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| 10:06 | I'm focused on fixing bugs
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| 10:07 | <beakburke> is Eric working on the installer part
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| 10:08 | <warren> I dunno
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| 10:08 | you could ask him
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| 10:08 | I still want to do the "LTSP Live Server" installer
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| 10:08 | which lets you run a LTSP server directly from the live media
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| 10:08 | <petre> in a separate ISO?
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| 10:08 | <warren> or install it from the live media
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| 10:09 | install includes both the server and chroot
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| 10:09 | <beakburke> The instructions don't bother me, but I think a lot of the newbies who used K12LTSP would have a hard time with it.
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| 10:09 | <warren> beakburke: yes, that's why the instructions need a lot more details
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| 10:09 | * petre agrees with beakburke | |
| 10:09 | <beakburke> It was already integrated in there
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| 10:09 | Yeah, I know
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| 10:09 | <warren> the old way of installing LTSP isn't going to work so well for us anymore
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| 10:10 | <beakburke> I'm just saying that some users aren't going to even be happy with that.
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| 10:10 | <warren> does Ubuntu 8.04 have an installer that does the chroot directly from media as well?
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| 10:10 | <petre> depends on how automatic we can make the config
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| 10:10 | I don't think so
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| 10:10 | <warren> petre: ltsp-server-initialize is currently very automatic EXCEPT the network part because it is too easy to screw up.
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| 10:10 | <petre> the ltsp installer is only on the alternative install CD
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| 10:11 | according to ogra
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| 10:11 | <beakburke> They want an appliance out of the box. Like a preconfigured appliance.
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| 10:11 | That's not really on you warren
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| 10:11 | <warren> if you have an idea of how to configure hte network part automatically without screwing anyone..
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| 10:12 | regardless we need more details in the documentation so people can possibly understand the network part
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| 10:12 | <beakburke> Maybe it should ask
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| 10:12 | <petre> I was just thinking that even if you had a 'k12linux server' option in yumex, the admin still has to make some choices
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| 10:12 | <warren> it IS complicateed, but they DO need to get it right.
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| 10:12 | <petre> like how many nics, etc.
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| 10:12 | <beakburke> That is the big thing
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| 10:12 | <petre> and when there are choices, people can get things wrong, like screwing the network
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| 10:12 | <warren> given that we now auto-configure the dhcp and all services run on ltspbr0 automatically
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| 10:12 | setting up the interfaces is the ONLY thing they have to figure out
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| 10:13 | <petre> do we require 2 nics?
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| 10:13 | <warren> well, it is a lot more complicated if you don't have 2 nics
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| 10:13 | <beakburke> I think we should require it if you want the "Toaster" install
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| 10:14 | where it just works automagically
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| 10:14 | <petre> that's probably okay
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| 10:14 | <warren> if you really want to help 1) add more details to the current documentation 2) write your ideas of how to improve the network setup part to the list
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| 10:14 | <beakburke> If you want to use one NIC, then you are going to have to muck with DNS, DHCP, etc anyways
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| 10:14 | Will do.
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| 10:14 | <warren> If you have multiple LTSP servers with dhcp on a separate box, you don't necessarily need two nics
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| 10:15 | but it does help to have more nics...
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| 10:15 | <petre> I still run single nic setups in some offices,
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| 10:15 | but I can deal with the extra config effort
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| 10:15 | <beakburke> helps segment the traffic too
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| 10:16 | I just want to make sure we still have the same newbie friendly possibility that we did before.
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| 10:16 | <warren> ok, any other topics you want to discuss?
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| 10:16 | the Live LTSP Server idea would auto-run everything and ltspbr0
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| 10:16 | but there is STILL no good way to auto-configure the network ther
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| 10:16 | there
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| 10:16 | they would need to do it manually based upon actual decisions
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| 10:17 | <petre> could that be done via some dialog boxes?
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| 10:17 | <beakburke> Eg. one or two nic setup
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| 10:17 | <warren> anyone have time to write them?
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| 10:18 | petre: it isn't a trivial task because the ifcfg-ethX files don't even exist yet
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| 10:19 | <petre> right, but ifcfg-ethX scripts are pretty small, could be built into a script which is then called via some zenity dialogs (?)
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| 10:19 | <warren> if you knew exactly what you wanted to do
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| 10:19 | maybe
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| 10:19 | but figure out exactly what detection needs to happen?
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| 10:20 | it is a non-trivial thing to get this right for everyone
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| 10:20 | too many different combinations of network configs, hardware, etc.
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| 10:22 | perhaps the Live LTSP Server should turn off NetworkManager by default
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| 10:22 | because it is way too configure
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| 10:22 | i mean confusing
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| 10:22 | <beakburke> That's what I wrote in the wiki
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| 10:22 | <petre> so, we'd have to detect which nic is already connected to the main network?
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| 10:22 | and not use that one?
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| 10:22 | <warren> petre: that isn't trivial
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| 10:23 | <petre> that kind of 'detection':
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| 10:23 | s/:/?/
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| 10:23 | <warren> if you want to write a flow chart of how a tool would detect and configure things
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| 10:23 | <warren> if (this) then that
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| 10:23 | go ahead
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| 10:24 | I have to get going soon
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| 10:24 | these are good ideas
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| 10:24 | just it will take a lot of work
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| 10:24 | <beakburke> it's simpler to just disable networkManager, set your NICs to DHCP, figure out which one is getting the address from the main network and make the other one the bridge
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| 10:24 | <warren> start writing them down
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| 10:25 | beakburke: then that procedure should be written in the wiki
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| 10:25 | beakburke: you can handle that right? =)
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| 10:25 | <beakburke> will do, it's partly there already, at least the bit about disabling NetworkManager
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| 10:25 | <petre> beakburke, that's what I was thinking, but worried that I was foolishly trivializing something
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| 10:25 | <beakburke> mabye i did trivalize it??
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| 10:25 | <warren> make the documentation more clear first
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| 10:25 | <beakburke> K
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| 10:25 | <warren> I agree we need a better detection tool eventually
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| 10:26 | but let's figure out the manual steps first
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| 10:26 | <beakburke> That I CAN DO
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| 10:26 | <warren> ok, I gotta go
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| 10:26 | thanks for coming.
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| 10:26 | <petre> until next time, then...
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| 10:26 | <beakburke> yup
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| 12:35 | <jammcq> hey cliebow
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| 12:35 | <cliebow> Ho!
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| 12:35 | <jammcq> back home?
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| 12:35 | <cliebow> Edinburgh..
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| 12:35 | <jammcq> ah, having fun?
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| 12:35 | <cliebow> very much so..
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| 12:36 | <johnny> beep!
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| 12:36 | <cliebow> good food..awesme scenery..
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| 12:36 | just asking over in #scotlug for somewhere neat to eat
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| 12:39 | <cliebow> jammcq: im gonafind some food..glad to see you are all there..
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| 14:29 | <vagrantc> wow. i haven't done any ltsp related uploads to debian in almost two weeks!
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| 14:29 | everything has sucessfully migrated to lenny ...
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| 14:30 | still need to do the cdpinger and ltspfsd started from udev stuff ... but otherwise, i'm overall quite happy with it.
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| 15:37 | <sebas891> hi folks.
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| 15:37 | LTSP rocks! but I know that you all know!
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| 15:38 | <vagrantc> doesn't hurt to hear it now and then :)
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| 15:38 | otherwise, all we hear from people is what's broken
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| 15:38 | <sebas891> I think it's one of the "best" linux projects!
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| 15:40 | reusing old hardware, building cheap computers labs for everyone! all that on free software!
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| 15:42 | but I would like to use wine apps on some clients, and it's not working!
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| 15:42 | X crashs and I'm back to the login! :(
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| 15:43 | I've googled around... but I didn't find any pointers...
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| 15:43 | I'm using ltsp5 on kubuntu 7.10.
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| 15:43 | <vagrantc> do they work when not used on thin clients?
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| 15:43 | i.e. is it an LTSP specific problem
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| 15:44 | <sebas891> I can use wine apps on the server without problems.
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| 15:44 | <vagrantc> look in your user's ~/.xsession-errors ... maybe find something there
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| 15:45 | <sebas891> ok.
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| 15:45 | anything else, I could look at? is there a debug mode some how?
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| 15:46 | <vagrantc> how much ram do your thin clients have?
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| 15:47 | <sebas891> 64 meg.
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| 15:47 | <vagrantc> graphic-intesive things will consume a lot of memory sometimes, which will crash the X server ...
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| 15:48 | unfortunately, due to the way some applications are written, sometimes even 64MB isn't enough anymore.
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| 15:48 | <sebas891> I can know the amount of memory by login in the client machine?
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| 15:48 | <vagrantc> you would have to log into the client itself ...
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| 15:49 | <vagrantc> rather than logging into the server through the thin client
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| 15:49 | <sebas891> I also tried with machines with 256 meg and 512 meg ... same story.
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| 15:49 | I enable root on the clients so I can login :)
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| 15:50 | more, I would like to monitor the clients with munin or collectd.
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| 15:52 | vagrantc: thanks I will at this tomorrow.
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| 16:01 | <vagrantc> sebas891: good luck.
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| 16:03 | <sebas891> thanks.
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| 17:22 | <vagrantc> yay. debian lenny with NBD+squashfs+aufs is working nicely.
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| 17:23 | <jammcq> you rock
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| 17:24 | <vagrantc> i've mostly just glued together the rocks that others have provided.
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| 17:24 | a conglomerate, of sorts.
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| 17:24 | well, i guess working nicely is a bit of a stretch.
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| 17:24 | it still requires a good deal of manual configuration
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| 17:33 | * vagrantc wonders will ogra will have word weather ubuntu is switching to aufs | |
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| 19:25 | <vagrantc> hrm... grabbing lts.conf via tftp doesn't seem to work for me...
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| 19:25 | but i can pass options via the boot prompt :)
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| 20:56 | <warren> vagrantc: you're grabbing via tftp from initramfs right?
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| 20:56 | <vagrantc> warren: yes
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| 20:56 | <warren> vagrantc: I'm doing it very very late, immediately before screens runs
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| 20:57 | vagrantc: saw my post?
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| 20:57 | <vagrantc> ogra wanted it to happen in initramfs, so that initramfs could actually make use of configuration fivalues
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| 20:57 | <warren> I see the -n option in getltscfg code but I don't see it actually used by Debian
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| 20:57 | <vagrantc> yes, we don't make much use of getltscfg directly
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| 20:58 | <warren> what options in lts.conf are used at that point?
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| 20:58 | is this guy actually wrong then?
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| 20:58 | <vagrantc> for values that don't set defaults in /usr/share/ltsp/ltsp_config, it would probably be fine
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| 20:58 | many lts.conf options are used, just not by using getltscfg directly ... ltsp_config calles getltscfg
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| 21:00 | * vagrantc looks for warren's post | |
| 21:01 | <vagrantc> warren: "getltscfg -a" gets client-specific settings.
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| 21:01 | i don't know what -n does
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| 21:02 | <warren> oh, he wrote back, he was wrong
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| 21:02 | <vagrantc> heh
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| 21:03 | maybe -n gets settings that are different from the defaults?
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| 21:04 | warren: how'd the release go? ltsp in decent shape?
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| 21:05 | <warren> vagrantc: post-release found and fixed little things (you can see in ltsp-trunk)
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| 21:05 | vagrantc: main thing that's broken is etherboot. it utterly fails with all three wrapping tools due to some yet unkonwn upstream kernel change.
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| 21:05 | or maybe gcc-4.3
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| 21:06 | <vagrantc> warren: what version numbers did you end up releasing with?
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| 21:06 | <warren> 5.1.7 I think
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| 21:06 | <vagrantc> ldm, ltspfs?
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| 21:07 | <warren> ldm-2.0.4-1.fc9 ltspfs-0.5.2-1.fc9 ltsp-5.1.7-2.fc9
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| 21:07 | the next major two changes I want to make:
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| 21:08 | 1) Move many of the post-install ltsp-build-client plugins into an in-chroot plugin system
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| 21:08 | <vagrantc> debian should hit freeze in about a month
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| 21:08 | <warren> since I need package upgrades to DTRT
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| 21:08 | <vagrantc> yeah, upgradeable chroots would be very nice.
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| 21:08 | <warren> I might not be able to achieve this 100% but I hope I can.
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| 21:08 | <vagrantc> that's actually one of the things that lessdisks probably handled a little better
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| 21:08 | <warren> lessdisks?
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| 21:09 | <vagrantc> i would like to move more in-chroot
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| 21:09 | warren: the diskless terminal project i wrote and worked on from 2001-2005
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| 21:09 | <warren> I plan on running an in-chroot script like ltsp-chroot-setup in my package %post, but it immediately exists if /etc/ltsp_chroot doesn't exist.
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| 21:09 | err
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| 21:09 | exits
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| 21:10 | we can have common and distro-specific plugins in there too
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| 21:10 | I guess
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| 21:10 | <vagrantc> basically, ltsp5 did most things very similarly to lessdisks, so i started working on ltsp5
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| 21:10 | <warren> oh shit, I didn't buy my tickets for portland yet
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| 21:11 | <vagrantc> well, i managed to get use freegeek space for july 25th-28th
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| 21:12 | i know some people are leaving on the 27th or 28th, but it doesn't conflict with anything else, so i figured i'd grab the whole weekend
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| 21:16 | hmmm... sounds like aufs is compatible with nfs ...
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| 21:17 | <warren> huh?
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| 21:17 | compatible in what way?
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| 21:18 | <vagrantc> well, unionfs and nfs didn't play together nicely
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| 21:19 | so you couldn't use nfs as a readonly backend with something writeable layered on top ... but apparently aufs works fine.
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| 21:19 | <warren> should I bother making a plugin system for ltsp-chroot-setup?
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| 21:19 | we do very different things
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| 21:19 | it would be a lot quicker to have our own scripts
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| 21:20 | although if other distros want to use the same concept I suppose it could be done
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| 21:20 | <vagrantc> depends on how likely you are to share with other rpm based distros
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| 21:20 | <warren> this has no value to deb distros?
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| 21:20 | <vagrantc> overall, i'm inclined to use plugins.
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| 21:20 | though not at boot time
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| 21:21 | <warren> yeah, these aren't for boot time
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| 21:21 | these are during package install and upgrade
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| 21:21 | <vagrantc> the amount shared between distros that are radically different is probably even less than what's in ltsp-build-client plugins
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| 21:22 | <warren> I wonder if the times during which we grab lts.conf will bite us
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| 21:22 | <vagrantc> that's the only reason why i specified rpm based distros
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| 21:22 | <warren> I do it VERY late, you do it early.
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| 21:22 | <vagrantc> well, i actually still just use NFS by default :)
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| 21:22 | <warren> oh
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| 21:22 | it seems to be working reliably here
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| 21:23 | <vagrantc> oh, i've been using dnsmasq as the tftp server
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| 21:23 | i should try it with tftpd-hpa ...
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| 21:23 | <warren> oh?
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| 21:23 | <vagrantc> overall, i've been very happy with dnsmasq as both dhcp and tftp server.
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| 21:23 | <warren> it might be nice to use dnsmasq for dhcp, dns and tftp
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| 21:24 | <vagrantc> tiny, easy to configure, and you get a dns cacher for free.
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| 21:26 | * warren sleep | |
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| 22:32 | <vagrantc> i've had some communication with Ken Yap regarding p910nd ... surprising what an off-hand, not very confident yet minor slander can do. :)
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| 22:33 | not sure what it's missing relative to either the python or C jetpipe variants, or lp_server ...
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| 22:34 | or if it works better than any of those
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| 22:34 | but it's certainly been around a long time
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| 22:34 | <jammcq> p910d is very simple
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| 22:35 | we used it for a while, but someone found that lp-server handles HP printers better
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| 22:35 | something about reading printer status messages
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| 22:35 | <vagrantc> still haven't heard from lp_server upstream, though ... so that's not really an option anymore (at least for debian)
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| 22:36 | <jammcq> I agree
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| 22:36 | <vagrantc> maybe it also doesn't support serial?
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| 22:36 | <jammcq> it supports it
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| 22:36 | ummm, I think it does
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| 22:36 | <vagrantc> hmmm...
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| 22:36 | <jammcq> at some point, for really old ltsp, we took p910d and modified it to support serial
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| 22:36 | <vagrantc> well, i'm considering giving it a whirl.
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| 22:37 | <jammcq> but.... I don't know where that code is anymore
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| 22:37 | <vagrantc> cvs, one would hope?
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| 22:37 | <jammcq> although I should be able to scrape it up
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| 22:37 | heh, cvs.... for ltsp 2.x ???
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| 22:37 | <vagrantc> heh
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| 23:45 | <emercado> thanks to everyone who helped with a dhcp issue earlier..it appears the install of OS was bad..and I re-installed 64 bit version, with 32 bit client. Performance is great now...thanks again...45 clients humming along nicely!
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