IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 21 February 2009 (all times are UTC)
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| 09:31 | <FreakGuard> anyone using archlinux here?
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| 09:35 | I'm looking for an ltsp-mirror... could anyone give me one?
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| 09:42 | <johnny> there is no archlinux port of ltsp5 yet
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| 09:42 | search launchpad.net if you're interested in developing one
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| 09:43 | <FreakGuard> atm I'm wondering about an ltsp 5.0 mirror
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| 09:43 | as all seem to be emtpy
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| 09:43 | <johnny> huh?
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| 09:43 | ltsp5 does not distribute tarballs
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| 09:43 | <ogra> https://code.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/
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| 09:43 | there is the code
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| 09:44 | <FreakGuard> hm
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| 09:44 | <johnny> FreakGuard, if you want ltsp5 for arch, you would have to build arch packages for it
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| 09:44 | from the bzr repos
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| 09:44 | <FreakGuard> looks like it
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| 09:44 | <johnny> and then make PKGBUILD for it with a mkdst created tarball that somebody on that team would mirror
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| 09:44 | <FreakGuard> where to get some other buildscripts?
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| 09:45 | <johnny> you have to make the buildscripts to build the thinclient env :)
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| 09:45 | for each distro
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| 09:45 | <ogra> ltsp5 i al about intgreating with the host distro, if nobody has done that yet you wont be able to use it on your distro
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| 09:45 | <johnny> ltsp5 is all about*
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| 09:45 | <ogra> s/i/is/
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| 09:45 | <FreakGuard> so there's some work that needs to be done
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| 09:45 | <johnny> yep
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| 09:45 | i had to do it for gentoo
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| 09:46 | ogra did it for ubuntu
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| 09:46 | warren did it for fedora
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| 09:46 | <FreakGuard> I don't really like debian... but gentoo might be worth a look
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| 09:46 | <johnny> FreakGuard, if arch has some sort of automated install
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| 09:46 | <ogra> vagrantc for debian
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| 09:46 | <johnny> you can script it
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| 09:46 | <ogra> http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/IntegratingLtsp
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| 09:46 | <johnny> to do the right thing and build the chroot
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| 09:46 | <johnny> ah.. is that document still completely valid ogra?
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| 09:46 | <FreakGuard> actually there's 3 aur/ltsp-utils 0.25-1 (13)
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| 09:46 | The Linux Terminal Server Project installation untily files
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| 09:46 | <johnny> FreakGuard, that's for ltsp4
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| 09:47 | <ogra> (that wikipage is fairly outdated though)
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| 09:47 | <johnny> it is not supported by anybody
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| 09:47 | <FreakGuard> jep :(
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| 09:47 | <johnny> FreakGuard, ubuntu's ltsp is great
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| 09:47 | even though i wrote the gentoo one.. i still deploy ubuntu's at my store
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| 09:47 | <ogra> ubuntu was the cradle of ltsp5 ...
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| 09:47 | <johnny> truly
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| 09:48 | <ogra> though debian is equivalently good ... we worked very closely together
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| 09:48 | not sure where fedora stands but i suspect it is at a similar level
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| 09:49 | <FreakGuard> so either get good with debian or do a lot of work?
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| 09:49 | <ogra> or ubuntu
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| 09:49 | <FreakGuard> :/
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| 09:50 | hm
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| 09:50 | <ogra> !ubuntu
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| 09:50 | <ltspbot> ogra: "ubuntu" is a Debian based GNU/Linux distrubution that includes a Ubuntu specific version of LTSP. It can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org. to install ltsp on ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
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| 09:50 | <ogra> !debian
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| 09:50 | <ltspbot> ogra: "debian" is is a GNU/Linux based operating system that makes an excellent LTSP server. You can find it at http://www.debian.org. for information about LTSP on debian see http://wiki.debian.org/LTSP
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| 09:50 | <FreakGuard> I've a debian on my router...
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| 09:51 | <ogra> for ubuntu you dont have to do anything, it has an ltsp mode built into the installer so you just select the ltsp mode at installation time and get a ready to go ltsp server
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| 09:52 | <FreakGuard> I've got archlinux - I'm not the non-config guy ;)
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| 09:52 | <ogra> on debian you have to set up ltsp after installation manually with the given commands
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| 09:52 | see the latter links on both url's the bot has spit out above
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| 09:53 | <FreakGuard> johnny, just to get an image... how much work was the integrating for gentoo?
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| 09:53 | * ogra thinks half a year or so | |
| 09:53 | <FreakGuard> hm
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| 09:53 | <ogra> though johnny didnt really work fulltime on it
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| 09:55 | * alkisg has been trying to setup a RAID 0 for hours, only to discover that it dropped the hd performance to 20%... :( | |
| 09:56 | <ogra> alkisg, that doesnt seem right
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| 09:56 | <alkisg> ogra, care to help? :(
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| 09:56 | <ogra> did you use identical disks ? else 0 is pretty pointless
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| 09:57 | <alkisg> I tried with the ubuntu alternate installer, made this partitions: sda #1, 2, 3=primary, (#5, 6, 7, 8=logical), and sdb=#1, 2, 3, 4 the same size as the logicals from sda
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| 09:57 | <FreakGuard> why so much?
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| 09:57 | ehh many
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| 09:57 | <ogra> no, the partitioning should be identical on both
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| 09:58 | <FreakGuard> that's clear, I'm just wondering why so many paritions
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| 09:58 | <ogra> it should be identical devices with identicl part. scheme
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| 09:58 | <alkisg> The disks are of different size, sda is 40 Gb, sdb is 20 Gb
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| 09:58 | Then I "bonded" sda5 with sdb1, sda6 with sdb2, sda7 with sdb3, and sda8 with sdb4
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| 09:58 | So I now have /dev/md0 to md3
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| 09:58 | <ogra> well, that will likely not give you the performance boost you expect then
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| 09:59 | <alkisg> sda5 has exactly the same cylinders as sdb1, and so on
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| 09:59 | But instead of increasing performance, it dropped, from 20 MB/sec to 5 MB/sec :(
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| 09:59 | <ogra> and hdparm -tT /dev/sda5 vs /dev/md0 does show a slowdown ?
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| 10:00 | (or sdb1 vs md0)
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| 10:00 | <alkisg> Well, before the bonding, hdparm -tT /dev/sdb1 showed 22 MB/sec
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| 10:00 | After the raid creation, it showed 5 MB/sec
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| 10:01 | And also /dev/md1 showed 5 MB/sec
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| 10:01 | <ogra> if they are massively different the slower disk will tear down the performance of the faster one
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| 10:01 | <alkisg> They are of similar performance, 20MB/sec both
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| 10:01 | So I expected something ~40MB/sec or a little lower...
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| 10:01 | <ogra> well, try identical parztitioning schemes ..
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| 10:01 | <alkisg> I can't; one is 40GB, the other 20GB
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| 10:02 | That's why I had to count cylinders etc
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| 10:02 | * ogra never tried non identical disks in raid 0 | |
| 10:03 | <alkisg> But in theory, what I did was right? (I've never created RAID arrays before)
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| 10:03 | (other than the partition sizes, of course)
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| 10:03 | <ogra> well, apart from the fact that you didnt use identical disks and partitioning
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| 10:05 | <alkisg> Maybe I should use a partitionable raid, instead of 8 different partitions? http://linux-raid.osdl.org/index.php/Partitionable
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| 10:06 | ...or even lvm on top of raid? :(
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| 10:07 | <ogra> right
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| 10:07 | but still, you wont really gain much with raid 0 on non identical disk i fear
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| 10:08 | <johnny> FreakGuard, the barrier to creating a new distribution for ltsp5 grows less with every added distro, as it shakes out various assumptions
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| 10:09 | <alkisg> Isn't is supposed to work with media of any type, as long as they are of the same size? I read that even usb sticks can be used together with hard disks...
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| 10:09 | <johnny> luckily fedora started before me.. and shook out many debianisms
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| 10:09 | <ogra> alkisg, sure, but your performance gain will vary
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| 10:10 | <alkisg> OK, but I was expecting gain, not degradation... :(
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| 10:11 | Ah, maybe I should try with newer hardware, maybe it's a problem with my motherboard or IDE drives or something.
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| 10:11 | (they're 9 years old!)
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| 10:11 | <ogra> try utting them on different controllers
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| 10:11 | <alkisg> They're on different IDE cables... that's the best I could do
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| 10:12 | <ogra> yeah, thats what i meant
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| 10:12 | and make sure there is nothing else on that bus
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| 10:12 | i.e. CDROM
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| 10:12 | <alkisg> Erm, they're 2 CDROMs there, but I wasn't using them while testing with hdparm :)
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| 10:13 | *there are
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| 10:13 | <ogra> unplug them
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| 10:13 | and test again
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| 10:13 | <alkisg> Hm... ok... testing...
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| 10:13 | <ogra> old IDE buses will degrade to the slowest attached device usually
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| 10:14 | <alkisg> I did the first hdparm test (before trying RAID) with the same devices/cables combination
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| 10:14 | And they showed 20mBps, now they're at 5mBps :( - ok, testing without the cdroms
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| 10:22 | (damn CS jumpers)
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| 10:43 | <alkisg> OK, without the CDs: hdparm -tT /dev/sda1 (non-raid) => 22 MB/sec, /dev/sda5 (1st part of md0) => 24MB/sec, /dev/sdb1 (2nd part of md0) => 22 MB/sec, *but* /dev/md0 => 17 MB/sec. Giving up on RAID. :(
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| 10:47 | Ah, ok, I got it, it's my motherboard: if I test them in parallel, hdparm -tT /dev/sda5 & hdparm -tT /dev/sdb1 I only get 8.5MB/sec for each of them. :)
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| 10:47 | I spent several hours and got nothing, but at least it makes sense now!
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| 12:03 | <johnny> this directory really contains every debian source package?
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| 12:03 | http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.0/source/iso-dvd/
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| 12:04 | so.. 23K packages takes up around 14G
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| 12:05 | i'd like to purchase pressed source dvds at some point
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| 12:05 | but probably for ubuntu rather than debian
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| 15:03 | <kaos01> hi, my ltsp clients seem a bit chopi, is there anything i can do to solve this, say better netwrok ?
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| 15:04 | <FreakGuard> kaos01, you might want to monitor the server (load, network)
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| 15:06 | <kaos01> well server seems fine, network bandwith is also fine ...
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| 15:06 | its a crapy 10Mb half/duplex network though
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| 15:07 | <FreakGuard> you might want to wait for someone with more expirence than me ;)
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| 15:07 | <kaos01> the client is a new computer "wouldnt say thin" so its powerfull enough ...
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| 15:07 | but say i move a window around it all gets chopy, or read PDF
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| 15:07 | or swap workspaces
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| 15:08 | the only weak points i may have is the network or my setup :)
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| 15:10 | <alkisg> Is that *ten* Mbps network???!
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| 15:10 | <kaos01> yes
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| 15:11 | <alkisg> It's too slow... Can't you upgrade it? If not, maybe you should try NX...
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| 15:12 | <kaos01> while i agree its not an ideal network, still wondering though as teh bandwith is enough, would it have to do with some sort of latency ?
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| 15:13 | <alkisg> Well, I get about 20Mbps from my clients while scrolling a window, and 70 while playing video...
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| 15:13 | <sepski> full dunplex would probably matter more then 100 mbit. also of the thin client is weak you can experiment with LDM_DIRECTX (it helped for me)
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| 15:14 | but replace that 10mbit with any regular switch the first thing you do
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| 15:14 | <kaos01> yes i have LDM_DIRECTX=True
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| 15:14 | glxgears runs hell slow :)
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| 15:14 | <alkisg> kaos01: try removing LDM_DIRECTX, because AFAIK you lack bandwidth, not CPU power
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| 15:14 | <sepski> alkisg, can you actualy play video on the thin client ?
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| 15:15 | if i try eg youtube i have FPS of 1
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| 15:15 | <alkisg> sepski: sure, on all my 8 clients at once
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| 15:15 | <sepski> you could even add compression
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| 15:15 | <alkisg> sepski: what's your bottleneck? did you do any benchmarks?
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| 15:15 | <sepski> and each of them use 80Mbps ? you have gigabit switch then
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| 15:16 | no not yet what benchmarks do you suggest ? i have gigabit to the server. but it's via 3 switches and a 35km fiberoptic
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| 15:16 | <alkisg> sepski: depends on the video. E.g. for 640x300 with xv scaling to show it full screen, it only takes 30 Mbps for each client, which can be done with 100 mbps network + bonding on the server
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| 15:16 | <sepski> oh and the server only have 100mbit network card tho. but it only serves one client (yet)
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| 15:17 | <alkisg> sepski: sometimes it's the client CPU, other times the server CPU, other times the network etc
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| 15:17 | <sepski> might upgrade the server if this solution is workable
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| 15:17 | well the client didn't like ssh got high pings without DIRECTC
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| 15:18 | <alkisg> What graphics card does your client have? How fast CPU?
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| 15:22 | <kaos01> in my cenario its definetly not client nor server CPU :)
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| 15:23 | <sepski> VIA Samuel 2 at 530 mhz; bogomips : 1066 | VGA Trident Microsystems CyberBlade/i1 | 128MB ram
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| 15:24 | <kaos01> my cleint is 3MHz and still slow graphics
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| 15:25 | <alkisg> kaos01: what graphics card? E.g. glxgears requires 3d acceleration...
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| 15:25 | <kaos01> VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82Q35 Express Integrated Graph
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| 15:25 | ics Controller
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| 15:26 | <johnny> sepski, there is no 3d acceleration for that card
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| 15:26 | oh.. different person between those two convos..
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| 15:26 | oops
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| 15:26 | <sepski> i'v never tried anything 3d on this either
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| 15:26 | :)
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| 15:26 | <alkisg> sepski: I'm not familiar with your hardware, but it sounds low-end, maybe this is your bottleneck... Try playing a video with totem to see if it's good enough
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| 15:27 | <sepski> xorg runs at 70% cpu while playing a youtube
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| 15:27 | <alkisg> Server CPU or client CPU?
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| 15:27 | <sepski> client
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| 15:27 | load at 0.6
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| 15:27 | <sepski> firefox on server is at about 20% cpu rest is mostly idle
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| 15:28 | <alkisg> Is that 70% for xorg? Or you mean 30% idle?
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| 15:28 | <sepski> load of .16 - 0.2
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| 15:28 | aledec, 15-20 idle ; 70 for xorg alone
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| 15:29 | <alkisg> And that's flashplayer 10, or 9something?
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| 15:31 | <sepski> flashplayer-mozilla 1:10.0.15.3-0.1
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| 15:31 | debian lenny
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| 15:31 | from debian-multimedia
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| 15:31 | <alkisg> Hmmm ok, and you only get 5 fps?!!!
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| 15:34 | <alkisg> bbl...
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| 15:34 | <sepski> more like 1 :)
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| 15:36 | what is you people's ping time from server to client ? i have 35 km and get 0.55 ms when doing regular work (vi firefox and thunderbird.) but it jumps to 12 ms when playing youtube
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| 15:36 | <sepski> perhaps my client cpu is just not dealing ?
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| 15:39 | <kaos01> is a ping of 1.156 for client to server OK ?
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| 15:40 | oops I meant 0.672 ms
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| 15:57 | <alkisg> sepski: I'm thinking your GPU is to blame... if you scroll a gedit window, how many fps do you think you get?
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| 15:58 | <sepski> i used kate (kde user) and if i hold page down it redraws at 1-2 fps
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| 15:59 | <alkisg> So youtube/cpu isn't the problem, maybe it's the graphics card or even the driver
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| 15:59 | E.g. I had a similar problem with S3 cards: 3 fps at 24bits color depth, 30 fps at 16 color depth!!!
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| 16:00 | sepski: also try to run a local terminal inside X, and run either x11perf or even ls -R /, to verify that the problem isn't the network latency...
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| 16:01 | <sepski> this is the default 16 bits
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| 16:02 | <alkisg> Can you get a local app running?
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| 16:07 | <sepski> should this DISPLAY variable work ? DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:7.0
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| 16:08 | <alkisg> No, I don't think so
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| 16:08 | <sepski> it's ip:7.0 that's set on the server
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| 16:08 | <alkisg> Ah, from the terminal? Yes, but you may also need a xauth +
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| 16:09 | Or export XAUTHORITY=/var/ltsp xauth something
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| 16:11 | <sepski> hum
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| 16:11 | # xauth +
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| 16:11 | xauth: (argv):1: unknown command "+"
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| 16:11 | <alkisg> sorry, xhost + :)
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| 16:11 | sepski: I do it this way in ubuntu: Alt+Ctrl+F1, login as root, export XAUTHORITY=/var/run/xauth-I-don't-remember-the-path, DISPLAY=:7.0 xterm
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| 16:12 | And if you have a very recent ltsp with local app support, you may use an xprop trick - but I don't think it's on debian lenny...
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| 16:14 | * alkisg is trying lenny experimental with kde 4.2 but can't find how to install the nvidia drivers... :( | |
| 16:15 | <sepski> that worked got a local xterm
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| 16:15 | <alkisg> OK, try something like ls -R / to see how many fps you get
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| 16:15 | with a maximized xterm
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| 16:15 | Or maybe x11perf...
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| 16:16 | If it's OK, then your network is to blame. If it sucks, it's your GPU...
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| 16:16 | <sepski> more then with kate altest
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| 16:16 | scrolls quite fast
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| 16:16 | <johnny> the other way..
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| 16:17 | is to add LDM_DEBUG_TERMINAL=Y
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| 16:17 | which'll do all that for ya
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| 16:17 | and spawn a local xterm
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| 16:17 | <sepski> and you get a terminal at the ldm login screen ?
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| 16:17 | <johnny> no..after
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| 16:17 | <sepski> right
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| 16:17 | <alkisg> johnny: that's too recent, isn't it?
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| 16:17 | <sepski> niiice feature
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| 16:17 | <johnny> too recent?
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| 16:17 | it was before intrepid iirc?
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| 16:17 | <sepski> i have ltsp-server 5.1.10-2
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| 16:17 | <alkisg> I think lenny has a 6 months old ltsp
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| 16:18 | ltsp-server 5.1.62-0ubuntu
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| 16:18 | <sepski> hte freeze was almost that long so probably
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| 16:18 | <johnny> it's almost been 6 months :)
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| 16:18 | as it was done BEFORE intrepid.. perhaps even an entire month
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| 16:18 | <sepski> how would i test the network for ltsp ?
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| 16:19 | <alkisg> sepski: for bandwidth, from xterm: netperf -c -C -H server -l 9999 -D 10,1
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| 16:19 | <sepski> i added it in my conf. ill tell you if it worked on the next reboot
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| 16:19 | <alkisg> For latency, I don't know, ping?
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| 16:20 | Ah, you'll need apt-get install netperf :)
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| 16:20 | <sepski> well my ping bounces between 0.5 and 12 ms while playing youtube tho
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| 16:21 | <sepski> but that's only towards the client. the rest of the machines here have the constant low ping at 0.5
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| 16:22 | alkisg, non-free ! *my heart*
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| 16:22 | <alkisg> what? netperf or nvidia?
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| 16:23 | <sepski> netperf
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| 16:23 | <alkisg> Wow, I didn't know :)
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| 16:23 | <sepski> :)
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| 16:23 | <alkisg> sepski: where the heck are the nvidia drivers?!!!
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| 16:24 | ...well, when everything else fails, just @(*#$ google it, I suppose... :)
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| 16:24 | <sepski> non-free as well
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| 16:25 | 93.72 10^6bits/s over 10.02 seconds
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| 16:26 | that would not even be 10 mbits ?
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| 16:26 | i guess i have to try from a different machine as well to compare
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| 16:27 | <alkisg> No, that's a nice 100mbps link
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| 16:28 | Your bandwidth is fine, maybe the latency is your problem
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| 16:29 | <sepski> well the latency bounces to 12ms as i said, but only for this client. the (disk based) worksstation next to it have constant ping
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| 16:29 | <alkisg> sepski: how did you see your client cpu usage before, if you didn't have a local xterm?
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| 16:29 | <sepski> ssh into it
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| 16:29 | <alkisg> Ah, ok
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| 16:35 | <sepski> it's running vlc as a local app ok
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| 16:35 | no sound thop
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| 16:37 | <alkisg> And vlc from the server? Again 1 fps?
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| 16:39 | <kaos01> how do you guys get tehse fps measuremnets ?
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| 16:42 | <sepski> 1 fps is quite easy to spot ysing you'r eyes and a clock
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| 16:43 | <kaos01> thank i been reading your conversation, great trouble shooting howto, i will also give it a go later :)
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| 16:45 | <sepski> yeah it should be put on the web somewhere
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| 16:47 | how the heck can the same version vlc play on loca and complain about codec on server
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| 16:48 | <alkisg> Sound codec?
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| 16:48 | <sepski> video
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| 16:48 | <alkisg> Hrm, fun :)
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| 16:49 | <sepski> all i did in ltsp chroot was install vlc
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| 17:05 | <sepski> thanks for the troubleshootign tips. i have to go to sleep now. but ill be back :)
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| 17:05 | my vlc on the server is borked. have to fix that as well
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| 20:19 | <nothingman> how do I specify for tftpd to start on multiple interfaces?
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| 20:20 | <jammcq> I think it does by default
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| 20:20 | <nothingman> hm
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| 20:20 | interesting
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| 20:21 | <jammcq> do: netstat -anp | grep ":69 "
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| 20:21 | <nothingman> yeah, listening on all
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| 20:21 | I'm trying to use pxe boot from a vm
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| 20:21 | not sure what I'm doing wrong
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| 20:21 | or half-right :-P
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| 20:22 | <jammcq> how did you setup the interface?
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| 20:22 | did you bond it to one of the nics?
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| 20:23 | <nothingman> thought I did it right
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| 20:23 | <jammcq> what vm software are you using?
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| 20:24 | <nothingman> made a tap device, added it to the bridge, set its ip, made a dhcpd.conf subnet for it, restarted dhcpd3-server, set up another tap device, added it to the same bridge, specified it as the interface for the vm's nic
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| 20:24 | kvm, qemu, vbox
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| 20:24 | I get an IP for each, but no tftp
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| 20:25 | <jammcq> hmm. I did it with vmware and just setup a bridged interface and it worked
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| 20:25 | <nothingman> OK, so could I bother you to describe the steps to making the interfaces?
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| 20:25 | <jammcq> in vmware?
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| 20:26 | <nothingman> yeah
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| 20:26 | <jammcq> when I run vmware-config.pl, I just say I want to create an interface and bridge it to eth0
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| 20:26 | <nothingman> I mean you had to configure the interfaces on the host OS, right?
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| 20:26 | <jammcq> I just bridged to eth0, which was already configured
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| 20:29 | <nothingman> so: brctl addbr br0; brctl addif br0 eth0; tunctl -u <user>; brctl addif br0 tap0 right?
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| 20:29 | <jammcq> huh?
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| 20:29 | I didn't do any of that
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| 20:29 | <nothingman> then specify tap0 as the interface in vmware?
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| 20:29 | <jammcq> I just ran vmware-config.pl and told it I wanted to bridge to eth0
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| 20:29 | and that was it
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| 20:31 | <jammcq> cliebow: hey
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| 20:32 | <cliebow> jammcq:Hey!!
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| 20:33 | <jammcq> cliebow: how's winter in SWHarbor?
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| 20:34 | <cliebow> snow al the time..and lots of outside work on the new gouse in Trenton..they ripped the roof off bodily and dumped it on the ground..so i am dismantling..with an axe
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| 20:34 | err house
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| 20:34 | <jammcq> dismanling the roof or the house?
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| 20:35 | <cliebow> roof..but the house they basically tore down..
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| 20:36 | we added sso it is now 34x40 basically
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| 20:36 | bu the view is absolutely awesome
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| 20:37 | <jammcq> how far away is it?
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| 20:38 | <cliebow> 20 min from swh..right near the airport
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| 20:38 | <jammcq> ah
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| 20:38 | <cliebow> looking back to the mt desert hills
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| 20:38 | <jammcq> you'll have to show me next time I'm there
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| 20:39 | we should prolly begin the planning for that, eh?
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| 20:39 | <cliebow> id love to..havnt anyone here to show it to..
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| 20:39 | yes planning..gues you are going to brazil in june?
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| 20:39 | <jammcq> ype
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| 20:39 | yep
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| 20:40 | wanna come along?
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| 20:40 | <cliebow> love to..but with two jobs abd everything i have tied up in the new house not doable
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| 20:40 | <jammcq> ah
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| 20:40 | I understand
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| 20:41 | <cliebow> we own the swh house outright nut not ready to sell
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| 20:41 | i miss the linuxworld trip this time of year
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| 20:43 | frigging windows domain join driving me crazy..and ive set it up like fifty times
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| 20:44 | you staying busy?
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| 20:45 | <jammcq> yeah, crazy busy
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| 20:46 | <cliebow> that is great! writing code?
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| 20:46 | <jammcq> yep
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| 20:46 | doing lots and lots of Perl and Postgres stuff
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| 20:46 | <cliebow> coolio
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| 21:16 | <cliebow> g'night...google is not my friend tonight
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