IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 11 January 2014 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:28 | <effenberg> ello
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| 06:20 | <Ark74> hi!
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| 06:20 | i'm here away :)
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| 06:20 | again :P
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| 06:21 | xD
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| 06:22 | how can i set up remote logging?
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| 06:23 | where does it store it? (@ the server)
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| 06:24 | i'm having a funny behavior on one machine
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| 06:24 | if i use the autologin it will get a loop trying to boot
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| 06:25 | but on a manual login with the same credentials it will start session
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| 08:04 | <alkisg> Ark74: look at /var/log/auth.log on the server, or at /var/log/ldm.log on the client
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| 08:04 | !screen_02
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| 08:04 | <ltsp> screen_02: To get a root shell on an Ubuntu thin client: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ClientTroubleshooting#Using_a_shell_SCREEN
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| 08:40 | <Ark74> thanks alkisg, testing....
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| 09:44 | <Ark74> alkisg, why if i set LDM_AUTOLOGIN with LDM_USER/PASSWD it would try to log as "ltspN", where N is the last ip numbers.
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| 09:44 | host sshd[12658]: input_userauth_request: invalid user ltsp54 [preauth]
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| 09:45 | <alkisg> Ark74: what's the output of `getltscfg -a` from screen_02 on that client, when you set LDM_AUTOLOGIN?
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| 09:45 | It's LDM_USERNAME and LDM_PASSWORD, btw...
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| 09:46 | <Ark74> yeah
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| 09:46 | wait!, again
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| 09:46 | "USERNAME"
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| 09:47 | not USER?
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| 09:48 | <alkisg> !lts.conf
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| 09:48 | <ltsp> lts.conf: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf
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| 10:06 | <Ark74> i changed the lts.conf file to disable the autologin but it keeps reseting the screen session
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| 10:07 | can't get the "getltscfg -a"
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| 10:08 | on /var/log/auth.log one of the lines is, pam_winbind(sshd:auth): request wbcLogonUser failed: WBC_ERR_AUTH_ERROR, PAM error: PAM_USER_UNKNOWN (10), NTSTATUS: NT_STATUS_NO_SUCH_USER, Error message was: No such user
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| 10:11 | alkisg, i'll rebuild the image this machine is taking me no where
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| 10:11 | <alkisg> Ark74: I don't think that will help
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| 10:11 | Put these:
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| 10:11 | LDM_AUTOLOGIN=False
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| 10:11 | LDM_GUESTLOGIN=True
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| 10:11 | LDM_USERNAME=userxxx
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| 10:11 | LDM_PASSWORD=passxxx
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| 10:11 | And on LDM, press the Login as guest buttong...
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| 10:12 | This will use LDM_USERNAME/LDM_PASSWORD too
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| 10:12 | Why can't you get the `getltscfg -a`? Put SCREEN_02=shell, SCREEN_07=ldm in lts.conf.
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| 10:13 | Ark74: also, you can pastebin your lts.conf for us to take a look...
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| 10:14 | <Ark74> because everytime i get on shell 02, it restart the screen so i'm not even able to write any order
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| 10:15 | <alkisg> OK, so remove LDM_AUTOLOGIN
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| 10:15 | Put only LDM_GUESTLOGIN
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| 10:16 | <Ark74> ok, here the current lts.conf http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6731664/
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| 10:17 | <alkisg> Ouch, which distro/version is that?
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| 10:17 | NBD_SWAP is a mess...
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| 10:17 | LDM_SESSION = "gnome-session --session=gnome-classic
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| 10:17 | You're missing the quotes there
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| 10:18 | <Ark74> sorry i missed that one
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| 10:18 | they are complete
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| 10:18 | :P
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| 10:18 | <alkisg> And, the client settings are commented out...
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| 10:18 | It's LDM_PASSWORD
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| 10:18 | Not LDM_PASSWD
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| 10:18 | <Ark74> | |
| 10:19 | ok, one step at a time
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| 10:20 | first, its Trisquel, a *buntu derivate based on 12.04
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| 10:21 | LDM_PASSWD it's wrong, ok. But i have successfully used that on another environment only 1 machine keep reloading
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| 10:21 | i'll correct that
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| 10:22 | <alkisg> What is it using? A modified version of gnome-fallback? Or mate?
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| 10:22 | <Ark74> finally, the NBD well, i tried to follow the Ubuntu Documentation on NBD Swap, it works though
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| 10:23 | <alkisg> LDM_PASSWD does not exist anywhere in the ltsp or ldm source code, so you can't have used it successfully without you modifying the code
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| 10:23 | <Ark74> gnome-fallback
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| 10:23 | <alkisg> Possibly, the password on that machine matched the username or the hostname
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| 10:23 | <Ark74> then i'm incredible wrong u_u
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| 10:24 | or lucky!
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| 10:24 | <alkisg> So it didn't matter if your put LDM_PASSWD=xxx or LMD_WHATEVER=yyy
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| 10:24 | They're completely unknown variables to LTSP, totally unused
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| 10:24 | <Ark74> yeah i guess
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| 10:24 | that should explain it
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| 10:27 | <alkisg> So the main innovation of triskel is that it doesn't use binary firmware?
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| 10:27 | i.e. it just runs on less hardware?
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| 10:27 | <Ark74> alkisg, nor private software
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| 10:27 | one way to look at it
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| 10:27 | ;)
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| 10:28 | <alkisg> Well, I'd buy hardware that doesn't require properietary firmware,
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| 10:28 | <alkisg> but I wouldn't roll out a distro that just doesn't include the firmware...
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| 10:28 | One can just not install it
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| 10:28 | <horochovec> hello, good morning ;)
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| 10:29 | <alkisg> Hello
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| 10:30 | <Ark74> alkisg, it booted correctly
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| 10:30 | <alkisg> Cool
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| 10:31 | <Ark74> imagine, no wonder i had so many troubles
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| 10:31 | i wasn't paying attention to basic stuff ;(
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| 10:31 | thanks!
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| 10:31 | <alkisg> You're welcome :)
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| 10:32 | <Ark74> getltscfg -a is bassically the lt.conf settings
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| 10:32 | so i guess you don't need that anymore :P
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| 10:32 | *lts.conf
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| 10:33 | <alkisg> getltscfg -a shows how the client parses lts.conf
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| 10:33 | But that alone doesn't tell all the settings that the client gets
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| 10:33 | Anyway, that's a story for another day :)
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| 10:33 | <Ark74> ok
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| 10:34 | could i ask, about the NBD section ?
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| 10:34 | <alkisg> The nbd swap is supposed to work out of the box
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| 10:34 | Without any settings at all
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| 10:35 | Unless if 12.04 doesn't ship an /etc/nbd-server/conf.d/swap.conf file...
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| 10:35 | ...if so, the wiki should just say "create that file"
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| 10:35 | The ubuntu wiki is a mess, it's been ages since some ltsp dev looked at that
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| 10:35 | <Ark74> well, it does "create" https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/EnableNBDSWAP
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| 10:36 | ...does say "create"...
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| 10:36 | yeah, it's really old documentation
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| 10:36 | <alkisg> You don't need *both* swap.conf AND the nbd port etc
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| 10:36 | That way you're using 2 swap files...
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| 10:36 | Both the old way and the new way...
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| 10:37 | nbdswapd: ALL: keepalive => not needed in 12.04 either
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| 10:37 | <Ark74> so the only thing needed is to set the size of the swap?
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| 10:38 | <alkisg> No, just to create swap.conf if it doesn't exist
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| 10:38 | The swap size is 512 mb by default
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| 10:40 | <Ark74> swap.conf -> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6731751/
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| 10:47 | <alkisg> Yup, that should be enough
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| 10:48 | <Ark74> alkisg, once again thank you
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| 10:48 | <alkisg> yw
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| 10:48 | <Ark74> i should go to sleep it's almost morning ;)
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| 10:48 | see you around
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| 10:49 | <alkisg> Good night
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| 10:50 | <Ark74> ciao!
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| 11:02 | <horochovec> I have some problem with a specific thinclient
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| 11:02 | I'm using Debian 7, LTSP 5
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| 11:03 | My thinclient dont start the login screen
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| 11:08 | I'm trying a little conf: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6731860/
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| 11:09 | just a trident video driver, and all another confs to default, and the splash screen dont appear
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| 11:10 | and here is my log at Xorg.0.log http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6731871/
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| 11:10 | anyone can help me?
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| 11:39 | <horochovec> ?
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| 11:47 | <horochovec> anyone can help about trident video driver at ltsp? two days working in this issue :/
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| 13:54 | <ncom0pl> alkisg: Can I ask You a question regarding LTSP and low-memory thin clients?
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| 13:54 | <alkisg> !ask
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| 13:54 | <ltsp> ask: Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least a full hour after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel.
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| 13:54 | <ncom0pl> Right.
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| 13:55 | I've googled a bit and found some irclogs where you speak about setting up thin clients with 128MB RAM.
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| 13:56 | You've tried disabling some of the services live cron and dbus to free up some memory.
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| 13:56 | like*
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| 13:56 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 13:57 | I've implemented an "RM_RAM_THRESHOLD" lts.cont variable that deletes all non-essential services in order to save memory on those clients
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| 13:57 | And you can also disable sound, localapps and localdev
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| 13:57 | <ncom0pl> I'm trying to set up such thin clients(It's HP T5520) with 128MB RAM onoard and so far they are not performing so great.
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| 13:57 | Aren't localapps disabled by default?
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| 13:57 | <alkisg> No
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| 13:58 | Which distro/version again?
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| 13:58 | <ncom0pl> Also I found that a bit strange, 'cause anywhere I look, the manuals, pages say that 128MB RAM and upwards is just enough...
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| 13:58 | And I see screenshots of firefox + openoffice running on those.
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| 14:00 | <alkisg> Some manuals were written e.g. 5 years ago when 64 MB RAM was enough too
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| 14:00 | And some others, 10 years ago, when 16 was enough...
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| 14:00 | <ncom0pl> Ubuntu server 12.04.3 with the newest version from the greek schools PPA as you advised.
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| 14:00 | <alkisg> Right, so yup that's the best you can do if you want the latest software
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| 14:00 | If you're OK with older versions, you could make it go faster and need less RAM
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| 14:01 | <ncom0pl> What I'm trying to achieve there is just to have these clients run a web browser.
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| 14:01 | <alkisg> "just" :)
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| 14:01 | <ncom0pl> Yah, I know :P
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| 14:01 | <alkisg> A web browser is the most demanding thing
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| 14:01 | So, all the others are "just", the web browser isn't :)
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| 14:02 | But sure you can run a web browser over a client with 128 mb ram
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| 14:02 | <ncom0pl> Does it matter what browser I pick?
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| 14:03 | <alkisg> Firefox runs good enough until it needs to cache pixmaps (e.g. sites with big pictures), then it needs a lot of *local* client memory and it lags a lot
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| 14:03 | Chrome* doesn't use much local memory, and that's why it constantly lags a little :D
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| 14:03 | <ncom0pl> Yeah, I just tried chrome.
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| 14:04 | <alkisg> local memory offers speed but with 128 mb clients when ram is exchausted there are great lags because of server-side nbd swapping
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| 14:04 | So there's a balance between "usually fast, and at times big lags", or "a bit slower but without great lags"
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| 14:05 | <ncom0pl> I even thought of epiphany and some other less known browsers, I'll try them out.
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| 14:06 | <alkisg> There's no point, there are 2 engines to choose from, gecko or webkit
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| 14:06 | <ncom0pl> The problem I'm facing here is that my thin clients just hang when I try running more demanding apps.
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| 14:06 | Or after a short while of running them.
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| 14:06 | <alkisg> More demanding, like impress?
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| 14:06 | <ncom0pl> Like a browser :).
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| 14:07 | <alkisg> Ah, I thought you were saying "more demanding than a browser"
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| 14:07 | They shouldn't hang if you have nbd swap
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| 14:07 | <ncom0pl> Nah, the browser is my main goal.
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| 14:07 | I do now.
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| 14:07 | AAnd they still hand.
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| 14:07 | <alkisg> What's the output of `ps faux` locally on the client?
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| 14:07 | And, of this: lspci -nn -k | grep -A 2 VGA
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| 14:07 | <ncom0pl> While a laptop booted via PXE runs just fine.
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| 14:08 | <alkisg> Hanging issues are usually due to ram/bad cabling/graphics drivers
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| 14:08 | If you have 512 mb swap, then it's not a ram issue
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| 14:08 | It could go really really slow, like, needing 10 minutes to display a web page, but it shouldn't hang from ram
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| 14:08 | <ncom0pl> I figured then could just run slower, but not hand with SWAP enabled.
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| 14:09 | hang*
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| 14:09 | <alkisg> OK, pastebin the output of those 2 commands above
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| 14:09 | <ncom0pl> Sure, just a sec.
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| 14:10 | <ncom0pl> Is it possible to SSH into the client itself?
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| 14:11 | <alkisg> Not by default
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| 14:11 | <ncom0pl> I mean, to the clients console, taht would make it easier to pastebin those...
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| 14:11 | <alkisg> You can use screen_02=shell to login to the client, and then scp the result to the server
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| 14:11 | <ncom0pl> Ok.
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| 14:11 | <alkisg> Or you can install epoptes... or you can install sshd in the chroot... etc
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| 14:12 | For those 2 commands you can also do `ltsp-localapps xterm`, if you still have them enabled
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| 18:17 | <ncom0pl> alkisg: Sorry for disappearing a few hours ago, I had an emergency here and had to go AFK for a longer while.
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| 18:18 | So if you're still there, the output of `ps faux` on my thin client is: http://pastebin.com/YBqSQHQ9
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| 18:18 | And for `lspci -nn -k | grep -A 2 VGA` it's: http://pastebin.com/3PhJsY2r
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| 18:29 | <alkisg> ncom0pl: ok, that's about the best you can do to save memory without going into rmmod'ing modules...
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| 18:29 | <alkisg> You can also save the udhcpc memory with ipappend 3, but that's a detail, it doesn't take much ram
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| 18:29 | I think the via chip has issues, it might be responsible for the hangs
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| 18:30 | <alkisg> You could try with a VM client to make sure that the 128 MB RAM are enough for your needs
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| 18:33 | <ncom0pl> Darm, yeah I heard some bad stuff about VIA chips too :/.
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| 18:34 | <ncom0pl> And this this client is VIA-everything.
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| 18:36 | <ncom0pl> Ok, so disabling sound, localapps, localdev is pretty much all I can do the easy way?
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| 18:40 | I'm wondering, would it make any difference if I installed a windows manager insted of a desktop environment?
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| 18:40 | Can I even use that with LTSP?
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| 18:41 | I mean, obviously it would be easier on the server, but I mean client-wise.
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| 18:45 | <alkisg> ncom0pl: client-side, there's not much less you can do
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| 18:45 | Unless you switch to using vnc :)
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| 18:45 | Which doesn't use much pixmaps, but sucks performance-wise
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| 18:45 | *much _more_ you can do
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| 18:45 | You could try with very older distros in the chroot
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| 18:46 | E.g. you could use 10.04 or even 8.04
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| 18:46 | <ncom0pl> But then would I have to also use an older version on the server?
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| 18:46 | <alkisg> Maybe the via driver would even be more stable with such old versions
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| 18:46 | No, the server can be new, but you'd have to tweak it a bit
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| 18:46 | E.g. the nbd configuration...
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| 18:47 | How many of those clients do you have?
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| 18:47 | <ncom0pl> Not many, it's actually just a home-server kind of project.
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| 18:47 | So I've got 10 machines laying around.
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| 18:47 | But I'll probably use 2 or 3 as thin clients with the server
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| 18:48 | <alkisg> I'm not sure if it's worth it to optimize the chroot so much just for 2-3 clients
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| 18:48 | What you already did is good enough - unless if you want to use an older distro for stability wrt graphics drivers, not wrt RAM
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| 18:49 | <ncom0pl> I guess I'll play with it a little more and eventually leave it if it eats up too much of my spare time.
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| 18:50 | The main problem still is that the client hangs.
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| 18:51 | <alkisg> You can try with a VM to see if it's RAM related (I don't think so) or graphics related
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| 18:52 | <ncom0pl> I'll do that.
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| 18:52 | <alkisg> !kvm
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| 18:52 | <ltsp> kvm: Virtual thin client: kvm -vga vmware -ctrl-grab -kernel /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/vmlinuz -append "append ro initrd=initrd.img init=/sbin/init-ltsp root=/dev/nbd0 ip=:10.160.67.10::" -initrd /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/initrd.img -no-shutdown
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| 18:52 | <effenberg> my clients wont look for pxefile named like their MAC, any hint?
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| 18:53 | <alkisg> effenberg: but other than that they boot ok?
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| 18:53 | <effenberg> fallback to default yes
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| 18:53 | and hex ip also
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| 18:54 | took my 4h to figure
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| 18:54 | <alkisg> OK, then ask in #syslinux
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| 18:54 | <effenberg> ;)
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| 18:54 | <alkisg> :)
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| 18:56 | <ncom0pl> alkisg: One more question related to the graphics on these thin clients. I actually tried running varius distros like dsl and puppy on them(directly/locally, not via ltsp), and the only success with the graphics interface was to use Xvesa, it didn't work otherwise.
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| 18:57 | Does it even matter here?
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| 18:57 | <alkisg> ncom0pl: try ubuntu 9.04, one of the best before the KMS era...
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| 18:57 | It does matter, yeah. Some graphics drivers worked well only for a few years.
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| 18:58 | So _if_ that card ever worked well, it would matter to find the correct driver for it
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| 18:58 | Googling with its pci-id is probably the best bet in finding the correct driver, or finding out that there's no driver
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| 18:59 | <ncom0pl> Thanks, that's what I'm gonna do.
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| 19:00 | Cause it really seens to be graphics card issue.
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| 19:00 | I have one of those clients running debian, a "tiny sever" so to speak.
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| 19:00 | <ncom0pl> Well, it doesn't have so much RAM left either, but it didn't hang even once.
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| 19:00 | * alkisg has one too... booting off of a 1 tb disk, with wheezy + lxde :) | |
| 19:01 | <alkisg> Via-based as well, though different model. It only hanged due to graphics crashes, not because of its 128 mb ram.
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| 19:03 | <ncom0pl> Where do I even start with using older distro version with LTSP? I have to find/prepare some kind of an image for it, right?
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| 19:03 | <alkisg> I think it has a "distro" parameter in ltsp-build-client
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| 19:03 | Or you can just net-share the live cd
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| 19:03 | <ncom0pl> Also sorry for being such a pain-in-the-a and asking newbie questions, it's ok if you don't answer :).
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| 19:04 | <alkisg> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveCDNetboot => *only* the automation section
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| 19:05 | <ncom0pl> So it's possible to use even a different distro in the chroot than on the server?
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| 19:06 | <alkisg> Sure
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| 19:06 | You can even have 10 chroots, all with different distros
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| 19:06 | <ncom0pl> I mean could I use some small distro like DSL, TinyCore even though the server is Ubuntu?
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| 19:07 | <alkisg> No, because those don't support ltsp
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| 19:07 | But you *could* use XDMCP
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| 19:07 | <ncom0pl> Oh, okay. So I'll google for ones supporting LTSP.
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| 19:07 | <alkisg> Which is completely unrelated to LTSP, but it should work fine for your needs
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| 19:07 | ncom0pl: what's your keyboard locale? english only?
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| 19:08 | <ncom0pl> On the thin clients?
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| 19:08 | <alkisg> ...the one you want to use...
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| 19:09 | Because e.g. tinycorelinux ships with xvesa by default, which doesn't support all locales
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| 19:10 | <ncom0pl> Well, actually it's Polish, but I guess I could ditch that for the sake of performance.
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| 19:10 | <alkisg> Then you could use any distro that supports xdmcp, i.e. most of them
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| 19:10 | Some of them even run with 16 mb ram
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| 19:11 | <ncom0pl> SOunds impressive.
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| 19:58 | <ncom0pl> How do i build another image without overwriting the previus one? And how do I specify which one should be used on which machines?
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| 20:21 | Also, does it make a difference server-performance-wise if the clients are running different images compared to running the same image?
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