IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

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Channel log from 14 May 2008 (all times are UTC)

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02:27	<Nubae> hmmm... about this ssh vulnerability, after upgrading apt, do I need to delete keys and then recreate them?
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04:26	<Nubae> Is there anyway to get italc to refresh faster than per second?
04:28	<Q-FUNK> ogra: there's still no blueprint published for the UDS sessions?
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04:35	<ogra> Q-FUNK, the schedule you mean ? it wil be there next week
04:36	<Q-FUNK> a bit hard to plan which part of the week to attend if they publish this at the last minute
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04:37	<stgraber> Q-FUNK: well, last time it was generated/updated everyday at 9am :)
04:37	<Q-FUNK> yikes
04:37	lovely planning
04:52	<Nubae> does anyone know if I have to regenerate my ssh keys after this vulnerability, or just updating from hardy-security is ok?
04:53	and is there a way to increase the refresh rate on ital (from 1 second to about .25 seconds or faster)
04:53	ital=italc
04:56	<itais> Nubae: http://wiki.debian.org/SSLkeys
04:56	<exodos_> Nubae: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-security-announce/2008-May/000706.html
04:59	<ogra> Nubae, probably better (and doesnt incorporate a broken key test tool) http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-612-2
05:01	* ogra is extremely amused reading neuralis' blog today http://radian.org/notebook/sic-transit-gloria-laptopi
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05:32	<Nubae> so, I have to run sudo ssh-vulnkey -a, but that doesn't seem to be available even after the update on my system
05:33	<ogra> then you dont have the updated openssh-server package
05:33	its included there
05:34	err
05:34	<Q-FUNK> ogra: funny one indeed
05:34	<ogra> s/-server/-client/
05:34	<Nubae> strange, when I upgraded, it said it was downlading all openssh based packages
05:34	<ogra> Q-FUNK, most funny is that he states a lot of things i was shouted down for a year ago when i mentioned them
05:35	<Nubae> ah, never mind, they were kept back
05:35	<ogra> Nubae, 1:4.7p1-8ubuntu1.1 is the version you should have
05:36	<Q-FUNK> ogra: I think that many of us saw this coming. this wasn't the silver bullet that was gonna bring inovative hardware and free software to the world. this was just negroponte trying to finally get ONE win in his quest to pretend to educate the poors.
05:37	it's not even about free software verus windows.
05:37	<ogra> nope
05:37	<Q-FUNK> he was only interested in putting into his CV "guy who did something related to bringing CS skills to the 3rd-world"
05:37	<Nubae> yeah olenepal has dumped olpc for other alternatives
05:37	<ogra> it should be about education, nothing more ... thats why i'm so thrilled by the classmate
05:38	<Q-FUNK> never mind that all this cool R&D went nowhere becuase nobody cared about the actual deployment or maintenance and support.
05:38	<ogra> it simply leaves the footwork to the manufacturers who actually deal with delivering that stuff since ages already
05:38	<Nubae> word
05:38	<ogra> OEMs and manufacturers
05:39	<Q-FUNK> basically, yes. it was a nice academic proof of concept that managed to get fundign and free hardware under a vague promise of mass distribution
05:39	<Nubae> at least it caused the educational institutions to consider linux more seriously than before...
05:39	<ogra> but when intel tried to get involved and get negroponte to commit to content and teching structures rather than being stuck to HW and SW they were kicked out
05:39	<Q-FUNK> is that why they bailed out?=
05:39	<Nubae> yeah, olpc's concept of teachers is: throw them out the windows
05:39	<ogra> Q-FUNK, no, it was a hugely missed opportunity
05:40	not just a proof of concept
05:40	<Nubae> olpc thinks just handing computers to kids is enough... the rest doesnt matter
05:40	<ogra> with pulling the right political strings you could have had something really awesome
05:40	<Q-FUNK> oh, it was a missed opportunity. but the project itself was just negroponte prentending that manufacturers were gonna sell millions of these, just to get AMD and others to chip in for free.
05:41	<ogra> based on cooperation on the top level and ignoring the profit made by HW/SW vendors
05:42	<Q-FUNK> negroponte needed a way to add something grandiose to his CV and not have to pay for it.
05:42	<ogra> heh
05:42	thats a mean statement :)
05:42	<Q-FUNK> so he made it look there was a huge potential for manufacturers
05:42	<Nubae> well, ole.org are sort of a result from olpc being deployed... so its not all bad
05:43	<Q-FUNK> OLPC is like the NASA: make the americans dream and pay for your career.
05:43	<ogra> heh
05:43	<Q-FUNK> bringing computer literacy was to the turn of this century the same idea as kennedy promising to land americans on the moon.
05:44	<ogra> well, kubrick made it real for them :)
05:44	<Q-FUNK> it was one of those huge projects that looked so impossible that it would rally a whole comunity to take the challenge
05:44	<Nubae> heh
05:44	<Q-FUNK> never mind that they don't have a plan for what to use spaceships or X-O for
05:45	it was just a pretext to get people to contribute to one guy's dream of a cool and grandiose plan
05:45	at least, sabdfl has a plan
05:45	<ogra> well, the plan wasnt bad, the focus was/is just wrong
05:46	<Q-FUNK> negroponte had none, other than to transform his previous loses into at least one win
05:46	<ogra> well, his team had
05:46	<Q-FUNK> his team isn't visible
05:46	his team doesn't have decisive power either
05:47	<ogra> well, mako, ivan and marco p. gritti are pretty well recognized voices in the open community
05:47	<Q-FUNK> same idea as to why nobody outsize ZDnet wants to talk to any of us or even to mdz. they wanna talk to the personality larger than life who went to space.
05:48	underline: in the community.
05:48	<Nubae> I'm on the server-devel list for the XS (xo's server platform) and people are moving ahead as if nothing was mentioned about the windows move
05:48	<ogra> yeah
05:48	<Nubae> at least it hasn't yet affected the server aspect of it
05:48	<ogra> it surely will
05:49	<Q-FUNK> put it this way: the only way to rescue this is to replace negroponte with an even larger personality, this time one that has a real all-encompassing plan and a vision.
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05:49	<ogra> well, who would that be ?
05:49	<Nubae> maybe not... there's more people convinced of linux's place in the server arena
05:49	<Q-FUNK> politicians and AMD/intel want to talk to a personality larger than life.
05:49	<ogra> i dont see shiny educators wth brillant new concepts
05:50	<Nubae> clinton or gore :-) heh
05:50	<ogra> *with
05:50	<Q-FUNK> Nubae: what server? running on an X-O?
05:50	* ogra wonders why he just read clingon :)
05:50	<itais> ogra: Alan Kay might be that person
05:50	<Q-FUNK> nope
05:50	<Nubae> no... the XS is the server that does the mesh networking and oher services for the xos
05:51	<Q-FUNK> maybe someone like that NYC guy who used to be a teacher and who has since written against the propaganda role of shcools
05:51	<Nubae> its totally based on open source software, so I don't see it moving to windows any time soon
05:51	* ogra thought mesh was serverless
05:51	<Nubae> some very talented devs on there too
05:51	not totally
05:51	they use jabberd servers to load balance
05:51	there is single sign on for email and moodle
05:51	<Q-FUNK> ogra: same idea as skype: you need some sort of a routing infrastructure
05:51	<Nubae> filtering, squid, etc
05:52	<Q-FUNK> I'd say put stephen hawkins in charge of the project.
05:52	<Nubae> yeah y not
05:52	<ogra> thats a good plan :)
05:52	<Nubae> start a petition qfunk ;-)
05:52	<ogra> ask him :)
05:53	* ogra would sign it
05:53	<Nubae> bet he'd say yes
05:53	me too
05:53	<Q-FUNK> or someone similar who has done a lot to bring science closer to the masses
05:54	someone who would see the point of free software, without being a fanatic like stallman or an excessively pragmatic one like raymond
05:55	<Nubae> y not the ubuntu man himself?
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05:56	<Q-FUNK> Nubae: why not, but he cannot be everywhere.
05:56	but yeah, sabdfl could work too
05:56	let's ask him next week
05:56	<Nubae> yeah, but this might be on his level
05:57	something to strive for
05:57	<Q-FUNK> however... ubuntu already has commitments with intel and the current X-O is AMD
05:57	then again, going AMD would work well with the LTSP strategy, since both are Geode-based.
05:57	<Nubae> they need to throw out negroponte for sure though, even within the OLPC, that feeling is pretty widespread
05:57	<Q-FUNK> indeed
05:58	<Nubae> I'm going to work for OLEnepal in June, and they are really upset with the windows move, but they're continuing to use xo's with linux
05:58	<Q-FUNK> then sabdfl's idea for a crank-operated XML parser will become a reality :D
05:58	<Nubae> lol
05:58	<rjune_> I submit myself for consideration to replace negroponte
05:59	<Nubae> done... :-)
05:59	<rjune_> great, now make sure he gets that memo
05:59	<Q-FUNK> Nubae: nepal? oh, aye, what's happening there? anything where LTSP fits well?
06:00	<Nubae> I hope so... right now due to its literacy rate (about 30%) they were picked for pilot studies for OLPC
06:00	<Q-FUNK> anywhere the thincan could fit in too?
06:00	<Nubae> so several schools have received their XOs but OLE is looking at alternatives
06:01	I'll be pushing it when I get there for sure
06:01	think its just showing the concept at this stage
06:01	for sure... there will be interest in LTSP systems for multimedia pcs and/or libraries, public internet stations
06:02	OLE works with the Nepalese government with financial backing from various countries
06:02	they envision almost all of it to be wireless (the infgrastructure) but it makes sense to do some lans (smaller setups, maybe 5 computers) running multimedia apps with ltsp
06:03	this is for the schools
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06:03	<zamba> what distribution do you suggest for running a ltsp server?
06:03	<Q-FUNK> ubuntu
06:03	<zamba> debian/ubuntu?
06:03	k
06:03	<itais> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/04/education/04laptop.html?_r=1&oref=slogin is much more instructive than Ivan article
06:03	<rjune_> one you like to use
06:03	<zamba> yeah, but i'm thinking updated packages and stuff like that
06:04	i have this notion that servers shouldn't be running any kind of GUI.. so i'm probably going for ubuntu server then.. that will be alright?
06:04	<ogra> zamba, thats not how ltsp works
06:05	you need a gui on the server, all your desktop sessions run there
06:05	<zamba> ogra: ok, so i should install the desktop version of ubuntu?
06:05	<ogra> !ubuntu
06:05	<ltspbot> ogra: "ubuntu" is a Debian based GNU/Linux distrubution that includes a Ubuntu specific version of LTSP. It can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org. to install ltsp on ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
06:05	<ogra> zamba, see the second link
06:05	it points you to the right download
06:06	<zamba> yeah, but my setup is somewhat modified.. i'm only going to be running with one NIC and i already have a dhcp server in my network.. only some of the clients should boot the image..
06:06	so i guess i'll just start out with the 8.04 desktop edition and then install the ltsp server package
06:07	<ogra> right
06:07	and make sure yur dhcpd is set up right
06:07	that will suffice
06:07	<zamba> yup
06:08	<ogra> otherwise we're all here to help you out ;)
06:08	<zamba> oh, i'll take you up on that :)
06:08	because i know i have to make quite a few modifications..
06:08	i want to set up the thin client image so that the user's only able to run firefox :)
06:08	and with no logon
06:08	but we'll take that later :)
06:09	to the install room!
06:09	<ogra> erm
06:09	you mean no desktops at all ?
06:09	<Nubae> q-funk the school I'm working with at the moment will probably be buying thin cans
06:09	<ogra> zamba, ubuntu has a --kiosk mode for ltsp-build-client that sets up exactly that
06:09	<rjune_> ogra: it's pretty easy to do just metacity with firefox
06:10	<ogra> rjune, i know thats why we ship it as an option in ubuntu ;)
06:10	<Nubae> heh
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06:10	<ogra> zamba, that mode actually doesnt require a desktop on the server, FF is running client only
06:10	(but indeed you only have FF fullscreen and nothing else)
06:11	<Q-FUNK> Nubae: oh?
06:11	Nubae: in nepal as well?
06:12	Nubae: or where are you nowadays?
06:12	<Nubae> no... this is in Southern Spain
06:12	:-)
06:12	<Q-FUNK> ah :)
06:12	<ogra> Nubae, i heard they have a cheap sale atm ... two thin cans for one $100 laptop ;)
06:12	<Q-FUNK> :-P
06:12	<ogra> heh
06:12	<Nubae> funny
06:12	trade-ins too?
06:13	I could always present it to the OLE people... hand in your XOs and get 2 thin cans instead
06:13	<zamba> ogra: what happens if firefox crashes?
06:13	<Q-FUNK> well, I've put in a lot of efforts to productize those DBE60 we still have in stock. they come out really cheap, as a way of deploying a classroom.
06:13	<zamba> ogra: and what about flash- and java-support?
06:13	<ogra> zamba, the session restarts
06:14	<Q-FUNK> naa, trade-in was just ogresque humor :)
06:14	<Nubae> yeah, for the current school they'll definetly get the 100$ thin cans
06:14	<ogra> zamba, we cant ship it, but you can do: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras && sudo ltsp-update-image
06:14	<Q-FUNK> but we do have something for every budget
06:14	<ogra> zamba, that will give you mp3, flash java and friends
06:14	<Nubae> yeah, I know.. was continuing the humour a bit further
06:14	<zamba> ogra: ah, i see
06:15	<Nubae> to me the gigabit cans seem awsome
06:15	<ogra> its all prepared for that, i cant just put flash into the default kiosk mode
06:15	<Nubae> they can run as mulitmedia low fat clients even
06:16	<ogra> yeah, if the chep cans would have gigabit you could easily sell them as samba servers fur USB based NAS setups
06:16	<Nubae> yup, sell them like hot cakes
06:18	<Q-FUNK> gigabit is positioned as a premium product.
06:18	10/100 (as on the dbe60 and dbe61) as standard.
06:19	<Nubae> I guess gigabit is getting cheaper with time
06:20	<Q-FUNK> eventually, yes
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06:21	<Q-FUNK> in countries where they are rebuilding, such as central asia, they are even skipping that and going straight for fiber.
06:22	<Nubae> jleche@mayfairacademy:/var/www/class$ sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys
06:22	WARNING: /opt/ltsp/opt/etc/ssh not found. skipping...
06:22	weird
06:23	<ogra> /opt/ltsp/opt/ ??
06:23	<Nubae> yeah, where did that come from?
06:24	<ogra> manual fiddling i'D guess
06:25	<Nubae> weird ltsp-update-sshkeys hasn't reset the keys
06:25	no one can login
06:26	<ogra> did you rebuild the server keys first
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06:26	<ogra> and re-roll the image after -update-sshkeys ?
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06:29	<rjune_> re-roll? we playing D&D now?
06:29	<ogra> didnt we always ?
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06:33	<rjune_> Sweet, I wanna be a ranger
06:33	<ogra> ask jim, he's stil the project lead :)
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06:37	<Nubae> ogra: I've regenerated the keys, done ltsp-update-sshkeys and still no one can login
06:37	<zamba> ogra: i just do ltsp-build-client --kiosk and that's it?
06:37	<ogra> zamba, right
06:37	<zamba> wow and stuff :)
06:37	<ogra> Nubae, and also did ltsp-update-image ?
06:37	<rjune_> ogra: Jim will probably tell me I either get to be the emotionless science officer, or the cranky old bones
06:38	<Nubae> ah no
06:38	<ogra> heh
06:39	<zamba> ogra: so the whole file system for this image is laid out in /opt/ltsp/i386/etc?
06:39	<ogra> /opt/ltsp/i386, right
06:40	<zamba> but i can only provide one image at a time? meaning if i set up kiosk now, i can only provide that to thin clients?
06:40	i'm thinking in the lines of /opt/ltsp/<image>/i386 now
06:40	<ogra> no, you can provide 65535 images
06:41	(or a bit less depending how many other ports you want to use :) in inetd)
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06:43	<ogra> zamba, --kiosk will make it default to /opt/ltsp/kiosk and /opt/ltsp/images/kiosk.img ... you are free to invet new names and paths as you like, see the --extra-help option of ltsp-build-client
06:43	your only restriction is the amount of free ports for inetd (who servers the nbd images)
06:43	*serves
06:44	<stgraber> ogra: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2008-May/002469.html did you see that ?
06:45	<ogra> stgraber, not sure that will pass the political discussions with upstream it implies, lets see after UDS :)
06:45	it surely wont go in as SRU
06:45	<stgraber> it's uploaded to intrepid-kernel
06:45	(well, requested for inclusion)
06:46	<ogra> right
06:46	but upstream will shout
06:46	they dont want to have more than one compression supported in the core
06:46	<stgraber> any reason ? do they have something better than lzma ?
06:47	<ogra> no
06:47	they just dont want to support more than one and lzma is bad if it comes to speed and ram usage
06:47	i wouldnt want it on a classmate PC image for example
06:47	the HW wouldnt cope
06:48	and i'm sure we wont have it on the liveCD either
06:48	since that would blow ram reqs from 384 up to 512M or so
06:48	<zamba> ogra: ok, now i've created /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img.. i guess this is built from /opt/ltsp/i386.. if i then change the i386 folder to kiosk and the image name to kiosk.img, i will be able to use stuff like ltsp-update-image?
06:48	still be able*
06:48	<stgraber> hmm, right ... memory requirement is a problem
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06:48	<ogra> sure, ltsp-update-image will just take what you give it
06:49	<stgraber> (and compression time of course, which is awfuly long)
06:49	<zamba> -b, --basedir Base of ltsp chroot. Default is /opt/ltsp if unspecified.
06:49	<ogra> (see the --help option for naming of options)
06:49	you likely want -a or --arch
06:50	<zamba> ok, for now i just leave it at i386
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06:50	<zamba> the name, i mean
06:50	will probably understand this a bit better as we go :)
06:50	<Nubae> weird, after the ssh update, firefox is back to freezing every 30 seconds
06:50	<zamba> so now i basically need a computer with the ability to boot from a nic, right?
06:50	<ogra> right
06:50	or build a bootfloppy at rom-o-matic
06:51	<stgraber> zamba: or a cd-rom/floppy/hdd image that trigger the PXE boot process
06:52	<zamba> yeah, cool
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07:15	<zamba> ogra: the client booted just fine.. but i'm unable to use the browser for anything.. it loads, but the mouse pointer just sits pretending to do something..
07:16	<ogra> hum, worked fine here in my test
07:16	<zamba> ogra: and the home page is set to chrome:<something-something>, but that's never displayed
07:17	<ogra> hm, it points to the http://start.ubuntu.com/8.04/ page for me (which results in a proper not found error if i'm offline)
07:18	<zamba> there it loaded
07:18	tried a reboot and it worked
07:18	strange
07:18	<ogra> weird
07:19	<zamba> indeed
07:19	<ogra> if that happens more often, please file a bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+filebug so i can look into it for 8.04.1
07:19	<zamba> ok
07:19	i'll try another reboot now
07:20	and see what happens
07:28	still working
07:28	:)
07:28	<ogra> good
07:29	<zamba> let's say i want to modify settings in the browser?
07:29	how do i do that?
07:29	(you saw this question coming, didn't you? :)
07:30	<ogra> well, best is to set a profile on another machine and copy over the ~/.mozila dir atm
07:30	*mozilla
07:31	<zamba> ogra: ok, but that's nice as well
07:31	<ogra> and indeed chown it to the kiosk user in the chroot before running ltsp-update-image
07:31	ah, well it can be improved
07:31	<Q-FUNK> ogra: will we have a server at UDS to hack on?
07:31	<ogra> i was thinking about a config bootmode that allows you to edit the settings as admin ... but thats rather future stuff
07:32	the kiosk plugin is more a personal fun project :)
07:32	Q-FUNK, what kind of server
07:32	<Q-FUNK> ogra: LTSP. I was hoping to get to the bottom of what makes configuration in the chroot fail with the new -geode, but work with the old -amd.
07:32	* ogra rarely finds time to hack during UDS, rushing from BOF to BOF is mostly enough
07:32	<zamba> ogra: problems with sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 aptitude install ubuntu-restricted-extras
07:33	<ogra> zamba, whats the error ?
07:33	<zamba> Can not write log, openpty() failed (/dev/pts not mounted?)
07:33	Setting up openjdk-6-jre-headless (6b09-0ubuntu2) ...
07:33	warning: can't open /etc/mtab: No such file or directory
07:33	<Q-FUNK> ogra: or are you gonna be there this weekend already for the hackcamp?
07:33	<zamba> one sec.. pastebin coming up
07:33	<ogra> hrm
07:33	thats tricky
07:33	oh, wait
07:33	mount -t proc proc /proc
07:33	;)
07:33	then try again
07:34	and dont forget to unmount /proc before leaving the chroot
07:34	<zamba> http://www.pastebin.ca/1017923
07:34	<ogra> so:
07:34	sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386
07:34	mount -t proc proc /proc
07:34	apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras
07:34	umount /proc
07:35	hit ctrl+d to exit the chroot
07:35	that way it should work
07:35	<zamba> and update the image
07:35	got it
07:35	<Q-FUNK> ogra: ideally, I'd get to sit down with you, Bryce and Timo to figure out if we're missing anything beyond the vendor-neutral libDDC in -geode and the PCI ID patch in X core, to get autodetection on Geode working both in LTSP and desktop.
07:35	<ogra> /proc is not mounted; some java apps may fail
07:35	:)
07:36	aptitude told you (in teh paste) :)
07:36	<zamba> hehe
07:36	<ogra> Q-FUNK, i think ltsp in ubuntu is flexible enough to set it up on the fly if needed ;)
07:36	on your lappie or mine or whatever :)
07:37	<Q-FUNK> ogra: hm. true. we could consider wifi as outside world and ethernet as ltsp lan.
07:37	<ogra> thats how i usually do it :) even though i switched more and more to vbox for all scripting
07:38	<zamba> ogra: oh, another feature request here.. i want to be able to view pdfs from webpages too ;)
07:38	<Q-FUNK> zamba: install evince on the server
07:38	<ogra> install evince
07:39	in the chroot
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07:39	<ogra> Q-FUNK, he's using kiosk
07:39	<zamba> ogra: and that will work in the kiosk mode as well? cool
07:39	<ogra> not tired but i assume so
07:39	*tried
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07:40	<Nubae> I use acroread
07:40	that works great inside firefox3
07:41	<zamba> Nubae: no package for that, as far as i can tell?
07:41	<Nubae> i had problems with evince not printing out certain pdfs, adobe's acrobat plays much nicer
07:41	add the medibuntu rep
07:41	www.medibuntu.org
07:41	not free software so its not in the regular repository
07:44	<zamba> evince wouldn't be installed anyway, so
07:44	<Nubae> remember to add the rep in the chroot
07:44	<zamba> lots and lots of errors when trying to install evince
07:45	<Nubae> hmm... u might need to mount proc and sys
07:45	that should get rid of errors
07:45	<ogra> zamba, for a smaller free variant xpfd does likely as well
07:45	*xpdf
07:45	its just uhm ... less pretty
07:46	<Nubae> mount /proc -t proc /proc
07:47	<zamba> mounting /sys as well did the trick
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07:48	<cyberorg> hi, we are having our weekly SOC meeting for LTSP GUI over in #opensuse-soc you are all welcome to join us
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07:51	<markkulix> if I want to start ltsp client with colordepth=16, where do I configure it on the server?
07:52	<Nubae> lts.conf
07:52	/var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
07:52	<markkulix> ok, thanks
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07:56	<zamba> ogra: the kiosk mode sets up so that there's no menu bar and no taskbar either.. any way i can bring those back?
07:57	<ogra> zamba, as i said before kiosk is firefox fullscreen only
07:57	you would have to install the other stuff
07:58	<zamba> hm, ok.. and from there tweak the image down to what i want, yeah?
07:58	<ogra> (ubuntu-desktop would bring you the full desktop)
07:58	<zamba> well.. the system must be bullet-proof when used by windows users :)
07:58	so a ubuntu desktop might confuse them a bit :)
07:58	but yeah, i'll try that
07:58	it's still possible to automatically launch firefox and stuff like that, yeah?
07:59	why am i asking, i know it is :)
07:59	hehe
07:59	<Nubae> I'd try emerging just xubuntu
07:59	<ogra> well, or if you only want a bar
07:59	pypanel
08:00	<Nubae> what do they need a panel for anyway if they're just using firefox and there is no logout?
08:00	<zamba> Nubae: opening evince
08:00	<ogra> ff should care for that
08:00	<Nubae> but firefox does that automatically
08:00	<zamba> Nubae: when evince's up people would be confused as how to get back to where they were
08:00	<Nubae> no need to open it
08:00	<zamba> didn't work here
08:00	<Nubae> did u try acroread?
08:00	<zamba> it launched as a new application
08:01	<ogra> set it up in the profile you create ;)
08:01	oh, you want it embedded as plugin
08:01	<Nubae> make sure u install the mozilla plugin part of evince too
08:01	<ogra> indeed
08:01	<zamba> Nubae: oh, i forgot that one
08:01	<Nubae> otherwise it will indeed launch external application
08:06	<zamba> there's a package for this plugin?
08:07	<markkulix> Nubae: great, I got it working! thanks again :)
08:07	<Nubae> for acroread, its acroread-escript and acroread-plugins
08:07	and mozilla-acroread
08:08	I dont see that ability in evince, so not sure its possible
08:08	unless its epdfview
08:09	u could use this: mozplugger
08:10	and maybe this too: mozilla-openoffice.org
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09:12	<itais> is there any plan to migrate from unionfs to aufs?
09:13	<ogra> itais, i'll look into it for ubuntu intrepid
09:13	(generally and for ltsp and liveCDs)
09:13	<stgraber> what's the difference between unionfs and aufs ?
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09:13	<itais> knoppix and other live cd did it into the pass
09:13	stgraber: www.unionfs.org
09:14	<stgraber> oh, nice frontpage :)
09:14	<ogra> stgraber, its the next gen unionfs
09:15	and sees more developer involvement (which would be my main reason to go for it, better/faster bugfixing )
09:15	<stgraber> last point seems to be the most important for Ubuntu's use
09:16	<ogra> yeah
09:17	we just didnt have development time we could put into to it for hardy
09:17	liveCD being the default install media in ubuntu makes such a switch somewhat critical it has to see testing from the beginning of a release cycle
09:18	<stgraber> indeed
09:18	<Nubae> an amazing amount of work has been done on inkscape... it easily rivals similar commercial products now
09:18	<ogra> and ltsp in ubuntu wil follow the shipped default
09:18	whatever gets used for the liveCD will rule whats used in ubuntus ltsp package
09:19	simply for the sake of easier maintenance and wider user testing of the choosen way
09:20	<stgraber> yep, and I guess unionfs would be dropped from the kernel if we switch to aufs anyway
09:21	<ogra> right
09:21	currrently it occupies a lot of kernel team dev time to maintain that separately
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10:22	<Blinny> Where can I see the default X_MODEs for the resolutions one specifies in lts.conf in LTSP5 ?
10:26	Or, alternatively, is there an lts.conf method to specify a mode to refresh at 75hz instead of 60hz, rather than going to a user-specific System->Preferences->Screen Resolution
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10:37	* vagrantc hopes that the latest ssh updates don't break ldm ...
10:37	<Blinny> vagrantc: So far I'm OK.
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10:40	<vagrantc> itais: thanks for the aufs patch
10:40	itais: that was on my todo list
10:40	<jammcq> hey, i'm thinking about packaging ssl and setting a compile time option to ignore bad randon number generation.... oh wait a minute, someone already did that :)
10:41	<itais> vagrantc: welcome, I've also closed #478875 as now I know the guilty was squashfs-tools, not ltsp
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10:42	<itais> I couldn't test it before because unionfs is broken in Debian with 2.6.24, but after replacing it by aufs now I've been able to confirm it
10:42	<vagrantc> so much the better :)
10:43	<Blinny> Is X_VERTREFRESH still supported in ltsp5?
10:43	<ogra> itais, erm, we dont use unionfs_cow
10:43	itais, its ltsp_nbd iirc
10:44	<itais> ogra: I know, that's why I say in the patch that it is useless
10:44	<ogra> thats a very old leftover from mdz
10:44	<itais> well, not in the patch, in the comment to the bug
10:44	<ogra> .oO(we should actually wipe it from teh upstream code or rename ltsp_nbd )
10:44	<itais> you already have ltsp_nbd, so don't rename it ;-)
10:45	<ogra> yeah, its tied to nbd ...
10:45	so the name probably makes some sense :)
10:45	<itais> that's the one you're using in initramfs hooks
10:45	<ogra> right
10:45	well, scripts, ot hooks
10:45	*not
10:46	<vagrantc> Blinny: on debian it should be ... but i haven't tested it in a while
10:46	<ogra> its the actual bootscript used in ubuntu by default, not sure if vagrantc uses unionfs_cow but i doubt it :)
10:46	<vagrantc> no, default on debian still uses nfs
10:46	<ogra> Blinny, only if you also give it X_HORZSYNC
10:46	<itais> vagrantc: I've tested X_VERTREFRESH in Debian and works perfectly
10:46	<ogra> vagrantc, i meant for nbd support :)
10:47	<itais> ogra: in Debian is exactly the same as Ubuntu when using nbd
10:47	<vagrantc> oh, well the nbd support that i've tested actually uses the "local" script with the nbd hooks
10:47	<Blinny> Thanks guys
10:47	<ogra> Blinny, these are tied together and shouldnt be used sparatedly
10:47	vagrantc, ah
10:48	itais, thanks for confirming :)
10:48	<vagrantc> ogra: i got ltsp_nbd working at one point, but then all the stuff it depended on kept breaking
10:48	apparently itais has got some patches though :)
10:48	<ogra> yeah i remember unionfs goig down the drain back then
10:49	<vagrantc> ogra: you know the direction of unionfs vs. aufs in ubuntu ?
10:49	<ogra> vagrantc, right, which i'll take with pleasure if ubuntu decides for aufs
10:49	we'll discuss it next week in prague ;)
10:50	<vagrantc> ogra: ok, wondering if i should apply itais's patch, or generalize it to support either
10:50	<ogra> gimme a week and i can tell my position
10:50	<itais> ltsp_nbd broke in Debian because squashfs-tools worked badly with 2.6.22, with 2.6.24 squashfs-tools worked correctly, but unionfs was broken :-(, using aufs everything works like a charm now
10:50	<ogra> i'Äd preferably drop unionfs completely
10:51	but have to follow the distro
10:51	geez
10:51	http://download.microsoft.com/download/E/D/D/EDD40B84-7889-4B7F-9EEE-D9D690751DB2/Linux_avi.wmv
10:51	MS recognized there is ubuntu :)
10:51	<itais> doesn't ubuntu have a aufs-modules-xx package?
10:52	<laga> itais: i use aufs on ubuntu with my mythbuntu-diskless stuff and it works a charm.
10:52	<ogra> no
10:52	<laga> i'Ve got patches to use aufs instead of unionfs, too
10:52	<ogra> we have it in the main kernel package or in linux-ubuntu-modules
10:52	<itais> but if you have it in the main kernel package, what's the problem with using it?
10:52	<laga> ogra: it's in lum
10:53	<ogra> thanks
10:53	itais, the FS used on the ubuntu liveCD is getting more attention simply
10:53	on dev side as well as on user side in the distro
10:54	<laga> oh. and that's why unionfs has always worked so well ;)
10:54	<ogra> itais, and we sell support for ltsp in canonical so i have to go with the supported chosen way
10:54	<laga> ogra: why not make it configurable? it's a two line change which my patches were going to introduce it anyways
10:55	- the second "it" ;)
10:55	<ogra> laga, lets see :)
10:55	<vagrantc> if it's easy to make both work, i'd like to see it upstream sooner than later
10:55	<ogra> currently i'm packing for flyig out in 12h i can tell things after UDS :) i'd really prefer to drop unionfs completely
10:56	<laga> ogra: have fun at UDS.
10:56	<vagrantc> by easy, i also mean not particularly complicated code, also
10:56	<ogra> i will, its prague ... the beauty of europe and the best beer :)
10:56	<jammcq> hopefully, it's not 9-Euro beer
10:56	<laga> fyi: "Ubuntu 8.04 allows the user to boot the standard installation disk (the
10:56	<ogra> jammcq, !
10:56	<laga> live disk) with aufs instead of unionfs, by using the union=aufs option."
10:56	<ogra> dare you
10:56	<laga> just saw that posting from julian andres klode on aufs-users
10:57	<jammcq> heh, /me has fond memories of Paris, all except the price of the beer
10:57	<ogra> heh, yeah, that was bad
10:57	but prague will be better
10:57	<jammcq> prolly
10:57	<ogra> and tastier :)
10:57	<jammcq> Jorge is heading out today
10:57	seems geeked about it
10:58	<ogra> yeah, with reason, he runs fosscamp before :)
10:58	<jammcq> he gave a nice little presentation on 8.04 at our lug last night
10:59	<ogra> great :) looking forward to see him, we had a nice time in london during distro sprint
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12:15	<devilbues> hi can anybody tell me how do I put a amd geode lx terminal working on ltsp5?
12:17	<ogra> devilbues, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/214119
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12:29	<devilbues> ogra, thanks I'll check it out
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13:05	<davidj> jammcq!
13:09	<shawnp0wers> In an attempt to "not look like an idiot" -- is there a standard set of documentation somewhere for LTSP 5 on Ubuntu 5.0?
13:09	I'm having issues that I need to troubleshoot, but it's unclear where to start...
13:10	sorry, ubuntu 8.04
13:10	(long day... ugh)
13:10	<Blinny> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThinClientHowto ain't a bad place to start.
13:10	<ogra> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/handbook/C/ its a bit outdated
13:10	Blinny, urgh
13:10	<Blinny> If you get stuck, ask away we can help.
13:10	<ogra> please dont promote that page, thats for breezy and dapper
13:10	<shawnp0wers> well, I've been both of those places... so here goes:
13:11	My thin client (test one) does boot, but upon attempting a login, it hangs at "verifying password"
13:11	<Blinny> ogra: Then why doesn't it say so? :P
13:11	<ogra> it did once
13:11	<Blinny> That's what I used to install.
13:11	<ogra> i dont watch that page anymore and i doubt anyone with deeper ltsp knowledge does
13:11	!ubuntu
13:11	<ltspbot> ogra: "ubuntu" is a Debian based GNU/Linux distrubution that includes a Ubuntu specific version of LTSP. It can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org. to install ltsp on ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
13:11	* shawnp0wers has managed K12LTSP boxes for quite some time, but this is all very diffrent
13:12	<ogra> thats what you sould use as install instructions
13:12	<Blinny> ogra: OK
13:12	<ogra> shawnp0wers, can the users log in normally via ssh ?
13:12	<shawnp0wers> yes
13:12	(just tried, lol)
13:13	<ogra> anything in their ~/.xsession-errors file ?
13:13	afer you tried a login
13:13	<shawnp0wers> nope, nothing created
13:13	<ogra> weird
13:13	<shawnp0wers> I agree
13:13	<ogra> how did you install that setup ?
13:14	<shawnp0wers> I am using a single NIC box
13:14	my dhcp server sends them to the Ubuntu machine for tftp bits, etc
13:14	<ogra> so you installed ltsp-server manually on an existing desktop system ?
13:14	<shawnp0wers> I get the login screen just fine (albeit slower than 4.2)
13:15	<ogra> right, thats the fastest we can get with default distro packages yet, its a bit slower
13:15	<shawnp0wers> No, I actually used the alternate CD with the F6 (or F4?) command to make it an LTSP server
13:15	<ogra> good
13:15	<shawnp0wers> I might try a dual NIC setup at first, to see if I can get that going
13:15	<ogra> and you are 100% sure it hangs at "verifying password" there is no other message ?
13:16	<shawnp0wers> I think it actually says, "Verifiying Password, please wait..."
13:16	but yes, no other messages that I've seen
13:16	I could sit for the duration to make sure I dont' miss anything I suppose
13:16	It takes the better part of 5 minutes
13:16	<ogra> anything in auth.log on the server ?
13:17	(you should see at least the login attempts via ssh)
13:17	else something is totally wrong
13:19	<shawnp0wers> unfortuantely, I've tried logging in with ssh apart from the thin client, so i'm not sure which is which
13:19	I can troubleshoot there a bit though
13:19	<ogra> the client should have its IP shown on the ldm window
13:19	on the bottom right
13:20	<shawnp0wers> it does
13:20	true
13:20	<ogra> they rarely change
13:20	<shawnp0wers> I'll scan the log
13:21	I see nothing from that IP
13:21	hang on, I'll clear the log and boot the thin client back up
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13:33	<shawnp0wers> sigh it started working
13:33	I changed nothing
13:34	good, but frustrating. :)
13:34	<ogra> yeah
13:35	<shawnp0wers> I might have to try on a beefier server, or varied thin clients though
13:36	the performance seems much lower than with 4.2
13:36	it's much shinier, but...
13:36	(Of course, I dont' use Gnome on my current 4.2 implementation, that might be part of it)
13:36	thanks for the help
13:38	<Blinny> shawnp0wers: By default, all traffic is tunneled through SSH. You can turn this off globally or client-by-client using LDM_DIRECTX = true in lts.conf
13:38	<ogra> well, general rule of thub for ubuntu, 128M per runing session plus 256M for the server itself
13:38	*thumb
13:39	<shawnp0wers> Blinny: does the SSH cause significant CPU overhead?
13:39	<ogra> and yes, dropping encryption from the ssh tunnel might speed things up for you
13:39	but that really depends on your client CPU
13:39	<Blinny> Gotta fly!
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13:39	<shawnp0wers> very low... very very low
13:40	<ogra> well, then use DIRECTX its similar to xdmcp seurity wise but keeps password auth still in ssh
13:40	*security
13:40	(dont do homebanking with it switched on ;) )
13:40	<shawnp0wers> :D
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13:42	<shawnp0wers> um... where does lts.conf live now?
13:42	the one in /opt tells me to go to the tftp folder, but there is no lts.conf there
13:42	<ogra> /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/
13:42	create one if you need one ;)
13:42	<shawnp0wers> gotcha
13:42	* shawnp0wers was expecting a preconfigured one
13:43	<ogra> no need for that in tsp5
13:43	*ltsp5
13:43	it uses distro tools for HW detection ad configuration
13:43	we pay the price in bootspeed though
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13:50	<shawnp0wers> all I can say is wow...
13:50	very zippy
13:50	<ogra> :)
13:50	<shawnp0wers> streaming video, with audio, from the Apple movie trailer site
13:50	in sync
13:50	wow
13:50	<ogra> oh, cool
13:50	<shawnp0wers> sound is a huge issue for me, my elementary school shuns our thin clients due to poor audio
13:50	* ogra wonders what graphics cards shawnp0wers has
13:51	<shawnp0wers> and the DIRECTX thing really really made a difference
13:51	um... on this thin client
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13:51	<shawnp0wers> it's an HP5000
13:51	I'm not sure the video card
13:51	<ogra> good to know
13:51	<shawnp0wers> I have a bunch of the $109 thin clients from disklessworkstations, but I expect them to work poorly
13:51	they're just very very tiny
13:51	and I believe sound is a deal breaker there too
13:52	<ogra> the e1000 ?
13:52	<shawnp0wers> yeah
13:52	<ogra> yeah, good for single app kiosks
13:52	but nothing for desktop use
13:52	<shawnp0wers> they work fairly well for my LTSP 4.2 implentations, for desktop use even
13:52	no sound of course
13:52	but even flash website seem fine
13:52	<ogra> yeah
13:52	<shawnp0wers> no students complain anyway
13:52	(except for sound... ugh)
13:53	So what would be the ideal CPU power for an LTSP 5.0 client?
13:53	<ogra> i mae the oss driver work for feisty but it was the worst ever
13:53	<shawnp0wers> ie, one that would handle the SSH compression/encryption
13:54	<ogra> stuttering due to mouse moves etc
13:54	<shawnp0wers> ouch, yeah... that woudl be a tough sell. :)
13:54	<ogra> between 500MHz and 1GHz
13:54	<shawnp0wers> so pretty beefy
13:54	<ogra> well ...
13:55	i think around 500MHz is quite common
13:55	<shawnp0wers> I haven't looked at actual higher end thin clients in a while
13:55	I know this HP5000 is like... 200Mhz?
13:56	<ogra> for used PCs as well as for the common t
13:56	hin client
13:56	<shawnp0wers> has anyone compared the bandwidth savings the SSH tunnel provides, if any?
13:57	<ogra> i dont think it provides any savings
13:57	<stgraber> ogra: do you know the : Fujitsu-Siemens Futro S300 ? I have been proposed 4 for a LTSP demonstration, are they known to work correctly with Ubuntu/LTSP ?
13:57	* ogra doesnt know he S300
13:58	<ogra> i have only one F/S client and thats a B20 or so similar to the old rangee clients
13:58	<stgraber> shawnp0wers: ssh isn't compressed so I guess it's in fact worse due to the ssh headers and encryption
13:58	<shawnp0wers> Ok, I have to go home, I just have to reiterate, WOW the pulseaudio/LTSP5 stuff works amazing
13:58	stgraber: thanks -- i was hoping for a selling point to the school board for more expensive thin clients. :)
13:59	<ogra> you can switch on netwrok compression through an lts.conf option though
13:59	* shawnp0wers is way out of the loop
13:59	<shawnp0wers> documentation for the lts.conf options at ltsp.org?
14:00	<ogra> stgraber, hmm, the oly ones i seem to find online are transmeta equipped
14:00	<shawnp0wers> I'll have to configure printers and such too, I'm assuming lots of that has changed
14:00	<stgraber> ogra: Crusoe 800Mhz, 128MB DDR, sound card is ac97 and I don't know for the network card
14:00	<ogra> no sure anyone has ever tested ltsp5 on transmeta
14:01	<stgraber> ok, well I'll give it a shot, let's hope it'll work :) otherwise the demo will be done in VM, but real clients would be a lot better
14:01	<ogra> indeed
14:02	but i dont know anyone who even saw a transmeta personally
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15:12	<klausade> vagrantc: hello,ready for some debian ltsp backports news?
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15:43	<vagrantc> klausade: still dealing with the consequences of regenerating ssh keys ... but what have you got? :)
15:45	<klausade> vagrantc: well, it works! Even X! But I had to switch to nfs to get it to boot.
15:45	vagrantc: out-of-the box I just got: http://paste.debian.net/2983/
15:46	<vagrantc> switch to NFS ?
15:46	default should be nfs.
15:49	<klausade> vagrantc: well, my root_write_method= was empty, so I made it root_write_method="bind_mounts". Then I added BOOT=nfs to /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/ltsp and made a new initramfs, then it bootet. But, I'll do it all over again now, doublecheck, much more fun doing that when you know it works.
15:50	vagrantc: is the norwegian translation in ldm 2.0.3-1~40.etch.0?
15:50	<vagrantc> klausade: the boot prompt should have boot=nfs added by default
15:51	klausade: yes, that's the upload i made during extremadura
15:51	klausade: LANG=nb_NO in lts.conf
15:51	<klausade> vagrantc: yes, I see the nb mo-files
15:51	vagrantc: where should boot=nfs be by default=
15:51	s/=/?
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15:53	<vagrantc> klausade: tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default
15:53	<klausade> vagrantc: LANG=nb_NO in lts.conf did not give me norwegian.
15:53	vagrantc: my /pxelinux.cfg/default looks like this "DEFAULT vmlinuz ro initrd=initrd.img quiet splash"
15:53	<vagrantc> i'll have to look into it more later
15:54	<ogra> you prolly need a locale-gen run in the chroot
15:54	<klausade> vagrantc: sure, no problem, I have plenty of stuff to test.
15:55	<ogra> and likely an encodig ... LANG=nb_NO,UTF-8
15:55	<vagrantc> ogra: should happen by default ...
15:55	ah!
15:55	yes...
15:55	LANG=nb_NO.UTF-8
15:55	<ogra> why is LANG not set for you ?
15:55	if the locale is generated
15:56	<vagrantc> for some reason, the default system locale isn't loaded when the ltsp-client init script is run
15:56	<klausade> ogra: did that before, didn't help.
15:56	vagrantc: that worked!
15:56	<ogra> vagrantc, hmm
15:56	does debian already use /etc/default/locale ?
15:57	<vagrantc> yes
15:57	<klausade> ogra: i have it in etch atleast
15:57	<ogra> /etc/init.d/console-screen.sh should read it and set the locale
15:57	<vagrantc> itais figured out that loading /etc/default/locale from the ldm screen script, or the screen_session script, or ltsp-client's init scripts ... works around the issue
15:58	<ogra> probably just needs to go into one of the RC whitelist varables
15:59	RCS_WHITELIST i think
16:01	vagrantc, well, i prefer to just fix it instead of working around ;)
16:01	* johnny isn't sure he neeeds RCS_WHITELIST for gentoo
16:01	<vagrantc> ogra: yeah, you know me. workarounds only.
16:02	if there's a proper way to fix it, i look for something else :)
16:02	<ogra> :P
16:02	:)
16:02	<dberkholz> johnny: there used to be some useless init scripts we could dump, that's what i was using it for
16:02	johnny: stuff like fsck and netmount
16:02	<ogra> hmm, seems you whitelited it in 000-basic-configuration
16:02	i wonder why it doesnt work then
16:03	<vagrantc> it's not installed in a powerpc chroot ...
16:03	<ogra> console-screen.sh ?
16:03	weird
16:04	<vagrantc> part of console-tools on etch ... no idea for lenny/sid
16:04	<johnny> dberkholz, i think i just need to set CONFIG_PROTECT_MASK="" to solve the config update issue
16:04	<ogra> still, if its there it should set the locale
16:04	<johnny> and then we just have to worry about the initramfs
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16:34	<gbolte> hmm on my ltsp client machines I am getting a nbd error
16:34	error: server closed connection
16:34	has anyone seen that before
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16:55	<klausade> vagrantc: yes, I have pristine chroot now. And I only had to add boot=nfs to pxelinu.cfg/default, works.
16:58	<vagrantc> klausade: you shouldn't have to have added that at all ...
16:58	klausade: do you have configuration files in /etc/ltsp/ ... update-kernels.conf or some such ?
17:03	<klausade> vagrantc: I only have dhcpd.conf nbdswapd.conf in /etc/ltsp/
17:05	vagrantc: must sleep. talk to you later.
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17:32	<gbolte> hello all
17:33	dose ltspfsmounter need to be +s in order for users to be able to have their local devices mounted under /media
17:34	because I have mine setup that way and it is still not working
17:34	:/
17:34	its only mounting under /tmp/.username-ltspfs
17:35	<vagrantc> yes
17:35	<gbolte> however if I login as root and insert the device into the client it dose show in /media
17:35	<vagrantc> without that, it wouldn't even mount in /tmp/
17:35	<gbolte> well without that it is mounting in /tmp anyway
17:36	drwxrwxrwt 23 root root 800 May 14 15:31 tmp
17:36	tmp has permissions set so anyone can use it
17:36	but /media dose not
17:36	anyway
17:37	I did add +s to that mounter and it is still not working
17:37	kinda weird
17:37	-rwsr-sr-x 1 root users 3.7K May 10 20:25 /usr/sbin/ltspfsmounter
17:38	dose that look correct vagrantc
17:39	<vagrantc> what linux distro ?
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17:39	<gbolte> opensuse
17:39	<ogra> lbmount needs to be +s
17:39	<vagrantc> no idea
17:39	<gbolte> oooohy
17:39	<ogra> not ltspfsmounter
17:39	<gbolte> ogra: thanks
17:39	:D
17:41	ogra: you are awesome
17:41	that fixed it
17:41	:D
17:41	<ogra> ;)
17:41	<gbolte> I now have an atacd-cdrom on my desktop
17:41	w00t
17:43	* gbolte thinks that he might need to apply the ubuntu gvfs patch that makes it so that users only get icons for devices they own
17:43	* gbolte tests if that will be necessary
17:45	<gbolte> damn
17:45	yeah that sucks
17:45	have to patch gvfs
17:53	I have to find the link to that bug fix though
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18:00	<gbolte> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltspfs/+bug/210379
18:00	thats the one
18:00	:)
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18:07	<ace_suares> !seen ogra
18:07	<ltspbot> ace_suares: ogra was last seen in #ltsp 25 minutes and 18 seconds ago: <ogra> ;)
18:07	<ace_suares> ogra !!
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