IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 13 May 2012 (all times are UTC)
| 00:00 | <vagrantc> eddytv: although earlier, you didn't have any problem with X starting ... what changed since then?
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| 00:01 | <eddytv> No, X never started -- it always errored out because it couldn't find any matching modes for this client's TV display
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| 00:02 | So putting my custom xorg.conf in (which I figured was the easiest way to get X working, rather than trying to figure out what lts.conf option I needed to set appropriate modelines, etc.) was the simplest solution for now
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| 00:11 | <vagrantc> ah, ok.
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| 04:22 | <alkisg> vagrantc: hi, I'm thinking that shipping an /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf file as part of ltsp-client is the best way to (a) allow the users to edit the command line (b) preserve their changes on updates (c) work with older chroots or chroots of a different distro. Example content:
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| 04:22 | NBD_CMDLINE='ro initrd=$INITRD root=/dev/nbd0 init=/sbin/init-ltsp nbdroot=$SERVER:$PORT$NBD_NAME'
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| 04:22 | NFS_CMDLINE='ro initrd=$INITRD root=/dev/nfs init=/sbin/init-ltsp'
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| 04:22 | If you don't mind shipping such a file (or generating it on postinst), I'd prefer to have ltsp-update-kernels and update-kernels rely on its existence, makes the code saner too
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| 04:33 | <eddytv> Hi alkisg. Did you see my comment above about /tmp being mode 755 on my diskless clients? Just curious if you know why that is happening (it's correct in the /opt/ltsp/amd64 tree itself).
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| 04:34 | <alkisg> eddytv: is that a newly built chroot, or the old 11.04 one?
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| 04:34 | <eddytv> New.
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| 04:34 | Built with 12.04
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| 04:35 | It prevents X from starting
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| 04:35 | If I ssh in to the diskless client and 'chmod 1777 /tmp', X starts up
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| 04:36 | I'm heading off to bed, but if you can think of anything to check, I'll look for ideas in the morning. I hate to put in a hack in rc.local if it can be fixed properly.
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| 04:36 | <alkisg> Does /tmp/ show up in `cat /proc/mounts` on the client?
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| 04:39 | <vagrantc> alkisg: hm.
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| 04:41 | alkisg: encoding the server and port and NBD_NAME seems like a bad idea ... but otherwise sure, i guess.
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| 04:41 | <cyberorg> alkisg, we use another script to configure pxelinux.cfg/default, "root=..." is not required on suse
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| 04:41 | <alkisg> cyberorg: you'd just ship a different command line in the client /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf, like all other distros
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| 04:42 | Each distro would ship the command line it needs, there's no need to have different scripts, it's just a configuration file
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| 04:42 | vagrantc: are you talking in general about the presence of variables in those NBD_CMDLINE etc lines?
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| 04:42 | Or about the server parts specifically?
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| 04:43 | <vagrantc> alkisg: ah, you used '' instead of "" ... so the variables are meant to be updated on the server?
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| 04:43 | <alkisg> update-kernels in the chroot will still generate a correct command line, i.e. it'll replace NBD_NAME with the chroot arch like it does now
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| 04:43 | vagrantc: here's the long version:
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| 04:43 | <vagrantc> might be useful to have an $NFSROOT as well, then.
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| 04:44 | <alkisg> Of course
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| 04:44 | The chroot is generated, update-kernels (should) run at the end of ltsp-build-client, and at that point it tries to generate pxelinux.cfg/default, .nbi kernels etc
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| 04:44 | <cyberorg> alkisg, here is an example of what it looks like http://cyberorg.co.in/default
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| 04:44 | <vagrantc> update-kernels client-side?
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| 04:45 | <alkisg> Client side, yes
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| 04:45 | cyberorg: yes in order to generate that you'd ust need to provide NBD_CMDLINE and NFS_CMDLINE in client's /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf
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| 04:45 | And you'd automatically get NFS or/and NBD entries as the server supports them
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| 04:46 | <cyberorg> alkisg, we dont use NBD_CMDLINE and NFS_CMDLINE
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| 04:46 | user's customization goes in default.local
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| 04:46 | <alkisg> cyberorg: ubuntu server / opensuse chroot, don't you want it to work at this case?
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| 04:47 | vagrantc: at that point, update-kernels doesn't know about SERVER, NFSROOT etc, but it can at least replace EXPORT_NAME with $arch
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| 04:47 | vagrantc: so the generated command line then will be the same as it is now, no difference
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| 04:48 | <vagrantc> what about things that are shared between NFS and NBD and something as yet undefined ... do we duplicate them?
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| 04:49 | alkisg: so what replaces $SERVER, $NFSROOT, etc?
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| 04:49 | <alkisg> vagrantc: then on the server part, ltsp-update-kernels runs. This has more info; it knows if the server needs IPAPPEND or not, the server IP, PORT, EXPORT_NAME (scratch NBD_NAME, not a good variable name). So it can generate a better pxelinux.cfg/default than update-kernels in the chroot
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| 04:50 | <vagrantc> so the chroot would generate a best-effort pxelinux.cfg/default, but server-side it would generate an alternate one?
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| 04:51 | <alkisg> Yup, but then ltsp-update-kernels writes the new info it knows in the chroot /var/lib/ltsp/update-kernels.conf too, so that the next time, the client update-kernels will use it to generate better .nbi images which need embedded command line
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| 04:51 | E.g. the EXPORT_NAME
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| 04:52 | So both tools share the same pxelinux.cfg/default generation code
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| 04:53 | <vagrantc> ltsp-update-kernels dumps into $CHROOT/var/lib/ltsp/update-kernels.conf ?
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| 04:53 | <alkisg> Yes, but only the related variables
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| 04:54 | <vagrantc> maybe that should get created before update-kernels ever runs ...
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| 04:55 | (client update-kernels)
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| 04:55 | so that it can get it right the first time
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| 04:55 | <alkisg> That file can be overriden by the user from /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf
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| 04:55 | It contains server info, the chroot can't autodetect it
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| 04:56 | <vagrantc> right, that's why we should create that information at chroot build time ... ?
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| 04:56 | it might need to get updated when relocating the chroot
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| 04:56 | <alkisg> Ah, sure, yes ltsp-build-client will at least know the EXPORT_NAME which is the most important part
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| 04:57 | <vagrantc> if possible, it saves having to re-run some code.
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| 04:57 | and ltsp-update-image should know that too
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| 04:57 | ltsp-update-image --export=/ ?
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| 04:58 | <alkisg> I think that those shouldn't be allowed to be provided as parameters to ltsp-update-image/kernels, but only inside the configuration files (or in the environment)
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| 04:58 | Otherwise ltsp-update-image just takes those and passes them to ltsp-update-kernels without doing anything with them,
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| 04:59 | and it also gets complicated with the big cmdlines that have embedded '$' etc
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| 04:59 | <vagrantc> sure does...
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| 04:59 | might need to use templating instead of $
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| 04:59 | <alkisg> CMDLINE can be defined in $CHROOT/etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf, period, no parameters :)
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| 04:59 | <vagrantc> some other replaceable value
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| 04:59 | <cyberorg> alkisg, you can go ahead with whatever you are planning, we do not use any ltsp image creation scripts, that part is taken care by kiwi and kiwi-ltsp-setup script
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| 05:00 | <alkisg> cyberorg: ok, ty
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| 05:01 | vagrantc: if we use eval, we have a bit more flexibility, for the case where one wants ${VAR+:other value}, dunno if that is needed anywhere though
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| 05:01 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so the big difference you're proposing is instead of having the defaults shipped in the script, they're actuaally written to a file, which allows the server-side scripts to read that file when needed... ?
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| 05:01 | <alkisg> E.g. we wouldn't want ip=dhcp when IPAPPEND=3 is defined, right?
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| 05:02 | <vagrantc> right
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| 05:02 | <alkisg> vagrantc: yes, they're written to a file, and that file always exists, so that the server can work with chroots of different versions or distros. And they also contain embedded variables for easier evaluation
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| 05:03 | So it would be a conffile or a postist-generated file
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| 05:03 | Not built by ltsp-build-client or so
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| 05:03 | (as e.g. one might not use ltsp-build-client at all)
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| 05:03 | <vagrantc> if people are *likely* to need to edit it, it should be generated... if the defaults will likely work in most cases, we should go with a conffile.
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| 05:04 | <alkisg> I think it should be a conffile
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| 05:04 | <vagrantc> alkisg: what about an arbitrary number of types ... rather than NFS_CMDLINE have a CMDLINE_0 ... CMDLINE_9
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| 05:05 | alkisg: and could we have a update-kernels.conf.d ?
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| 05:05 | <alkisg> vagrantc: the server decides between NBD or NFS based on what it sees when ltsp-update-kernels runs
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| 05:05 | With arbitrary CMDLINEs, we'd need a way to autodetect which of them are valid or not
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| 05:05 | <vagrantc> alkisg: but i might have 3 different NBD variants
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| 05:05 | <alkisg> For the same chroot?
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| 05:05 | <vagrantc> it's possible.
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| 05:06 | i tested using ext2 squashfs with bindmounts and with aufs overlays for a while.
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| 05:06 | same NBD image, different commandlines
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| 05:06 | (i know bindmounts are all but gone, but the example is feasible...)
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| 05:08 | <alkisg> In general the problem is to see when those CMDLINES are valid (e.g. you don't want NBD cmdlines on debian if the user never ran ltsp-update-image), so it can't support arbitrary types
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| 05:08 | <alkisg> We can have any number of them, sure, if there's need for it, NBD_CMDLINE_0, NFS_CMDLINE_9...
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| 05:09 | <vagrantc> ISCSI ? AOE ?
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| 05:09 | how will we grow?
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| 05:09 | alkisg: what about a dir with differnt files for different types ...
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| 05:10 | <alkisg> Suppose the new ltsp-update-kernels will have AOE support, then it will check the chroot's /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf for AOE_CMDLINE. If it's not there, the chroot doesn't support it, so it doesn't include the AOE in pxelinux.cfg/default
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| 05:11 | <alkisg> So each new method needs both chroot support (initrd scripts, kernel cmdline) and server-side support (check if the server supports AOE or not)
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| 05:11 | <vagrantc> that could be the first part of an arbitrary CMDLINE argument ... i.e. CMDLINE_0="NBD: ..."
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| 05:11 | <alkisg> We could have "USER_PROVIDED_CMDLINE_x" for cases like the one you mentioned with you testing
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| 05:12 | And those would be generated unconditionally, without the server checking if they're supported or not
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| 05:13 | <vagrantc> if we're going with a conffile, i think we'll want a conf.d dir
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| 05:13 | maybe these are such corner cases ...
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| 05:15 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so, it seems at least for debian/ubuntu that the different methods will share pieces ... COMMON_OPTS="init=/sbin/init-ltsp ro" ?
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| 05:15 | <alkisg> vagrantc: why? It's just a line, each distro should ship all of it
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| 05:16 | NBD_CMDLINE='ro initrd=$INITRD root=/dev/nbd0 init=/sbin/init-ltsp nbdroot=$SERVER:$PORT$NBD_NAME quiet splash vt_handoff=7 etc'
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| 05:17 | That vt_handoff part wasn't there in previous versions, and maybe it won't be there in the future either... so ltsp in precise should ship just that, unrelated to any debian parameters or even to other ubuntu version parameters
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| 05:18 | <vagrantc> overall, sounds fine, though i'm suspicious of the included $SERVER:$PORT$NBDNAME business
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| 05:18 | <alkisg> SERVER and PORT are empty by default
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| 05:18 | The user only needs to specify them on custom installations
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| 05:18 | s/NBD_NAME/EXPORT/
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| 05:18 | <vagrantc> and that's specified server-side?
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| 05:19 | <alkisg> Yes, in /etc/ltsp/ltsp-update-kernels.conf (not provided by default)
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| 05:19 | <vagrantc> to get the variables to register, it'll have to eval it?
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| 05:20 | <alkisg> Yes. We source the configuration files anyway so there's no security change there
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| 05:20 | (we don't parse configuration files, we source them)
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| 05:20 | (and they're in /etc already, so...)
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| 05:20 | ===> err no, we don't _have_ to eval it, but I think it'd be better, to provide for more complicated cases we haven't yet thought of
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| 05:21 | Like e.g. "don't include ip=dhcp if IPAPPEND is defined"
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| 05:21 | Btw, isn't ip=dhcp the default? Why include it?
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| 05:21 | <vagrantc> i might be the default, yes.
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| 05:22 | root=/dev/nfs is no longer really needed either
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| 05:22 | boot=nfs takes care of both of those, i thinkk.
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| 05:22 | <alkisg> Cool
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| 05:23 | My other thought was for ltsp-update-kernels to try to parse the chroot's pxelinux.cfg/default, and only replace the bits it knows
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| 05:23 | Like, nbdroot=
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| 05:23 | nbdport=, etc
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| 05:23 | But that way it can't automatically add support for NFS/NBD etc
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| 05:23 | <vagrantc> right
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| 05:23 | <alkisg> Hmmm
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| 05:23 | Here's another thought
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| 05:24 | What if we didn't try to do NFS/NBD detection, and left that up to the sysadmin, i.e.:
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| 05:24 | Debian would ship $chroot/etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf with:
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| 05:24 | #NBD_CMDLINE=xxx (commented out)
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| 05:24 | NFS_CMDLINE=xxx
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| 05:24 | And Ubuntu with the opposite
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| 05:25 | Meh no, that's a server option, not a chroot option :(
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| 05:25 | <vagrantc> right
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| 05:25 | <alkisg> (enabling nbd or not)
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| 05:26 | <vagrantc> at this point, chroots should essentially support both, as long as the NBD image was there.
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| 05:26 | i might just have to sleep on it a bit
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| 05:27 | * vagrantc yawns | |
| 05:27 | <alkisg> OK
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| 05:27 | I'll try to do unrelated parts of the code for now :)
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| 05:27 | <vagrantc> i mean, you could run with what you've got, too.
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| 05:28 | <alkisg> So I can assume that Nxx_CMDLINE exist in the chroot/etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf, otherwise ltsp-update-kernels will die with "I don't know how to handle this chroot?"
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| 05:29 | <vagrantc> wouldn't you be able to just have an include line for the generated pxelinux.cfg/default ?
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| 05:29 | <alkisg> No, because it requires variables from the server side
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| 05:30 | <vagrantc> i.e. /srv/tftp/pxelinux.cfg/default has a sub-menu for each /srv/tftp/*/pxelinux.cfg/default ?
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| 05:30 | <alkisg> The "just include this line in the menu" part isn't related to ltsp-update-kernels, but to the pxelinux menus package
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| 05:30 | <vagrantc> debian's default doesn't require any variables- it's usually passed via dhcp.
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| 05:30 | <alkisg> Ubuntu's too
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| 05:31 | <alkisg> But the line needs to be there (a) for the sysadmin to be able to easily modify it, (b) for the chroot to declare "yes I support nbd booting", etc etc
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| 05:31 | <vagrantc> so what would ltsp-update-kernels do if not generate a pxelinux config?
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| 05:32 | <alkisg> It would generate a single pxelinux.cfg just for the specific ltsp chroot
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| 05:32 | <vagrantc> so replacing the functionality of the old-style client-side update-kernels ?
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| 05:32 | <alkisg> It doesn't need support for e.g. a localboot option there
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| 05:34 | The pxelinux.cfg/default generation code would be in ltsp-update-kernels for sure, but it can also be in update-kernels too (shared from some function) if there's need for it
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| 05:35 | <vagrantc> it's hard to think about this without thinking about the pxemenus integration
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| 05:37 | alkisg: if we used a .d infrastructure for it, it would be easier to integrate the /var/lib/ltsp/update-kernels.conf in one visible structure.
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| 05:37 | <alkisg> For me, pxelinux-menus just gathers all pxelinux.inc files in /var/lib/tftpboot, and sets a default, nothing more, it doesn't get involved with specific cmdlines etc
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| 05:38 | <vagrantc> ah, so other things will have to generate pxelinux.inc files...
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| 05:38 | <alkisg> Or ship /etc/pxelinux.d/scripts instead
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| 05:38 | (08:37:28 πμ) vagrantc: alkisg: if we used a .d infrastructure for it, it would be easier to integrate the /var/lib/ltsp/update-kernels.conf in one visible structure. ==> I didn't get that one
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| 05:39 | That would be written by the server ltsp-update-kernels, and would contain EXPORT=xx, SERVER=xx, PORT=xx, if they're defined server-side by the sysadmin
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| 05:40 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so instead of /var/lib/ltspp/update-kernels.conf and /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf, we could have /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf.d/00-server-vars.conf (and nbd.conf, nfs.conf, etc.)
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| 05:41 | <alkisg> ltsp-update-kernels would write and update files in /etc every time it runs? Isn't that against the policy or something?
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| 05:42 | <vagrantc> maybe a bad idea, yes.
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| 05:42 | <alkisg> ltsp-update-kernels "caches" the last server info it knows about in $chroot/var, but only the sysadmin should write specific info in $chroot/etc imho
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| 05:42 | <vagrantc> makes sense.
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| 05:42 | <alkisg> So /etc/ would always take precedence over /var/
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| 05:44 | ...maybe I should postpone all that part for when we start the pxelinux menu package :)
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| 05:45 | ...and minimize changes in ltsp-update-kernels/update-kernels for now
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| 05:54 | <alkisg> Sysadmins don't currently have an easy way to permanately change the cmdline though, editing /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default is only temporary
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| 06:04 | * alkisg thinks he'll postpone most of it for the pxelinux menus package, minimize changes and keep things simple for now | |
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| 06:20 | <alkisg> So in Ubuntu, by setting rootpath=":ltsp_i386", we can omit "nbdroot=:ltsp_i386" from the command line, thus making the chroot option updating unnecessary for the default case not involving pxe menus
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| 06:22 | vagrantc: $ head -n1 /etc/nbd-server/conf.d/ltsp_i386.conf
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| 06:22 | [ltsp_i386]
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| 06:22 | ==> if that there was [/opt/ltsp/i386] instead, we wouldn't have to change the dhcp rootpath when we switch from nfs to nbd, and we wouldn't need to ship a different dnsmasq-ltsp.conf configuration file for nbd either (for option root-path)
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| 10:07 | <knipwim> alkisg: i think i've come to a good server config distinction:
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| 10:07 | /server/configs contains ltsp specific configs for in /etc/ltsp, distro specific ones in /server/configs/$DISTRO
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| 10:08 | /server/docs/examples contains other tool configs, also with a /server/docs/examples/$DISTRO
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| 10:09 | <knipwim> we can also move /server/configs to /server/etc, /server/etc.Ubuntu etc
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| 10:10 | <knipwim> alkisg1: did you catch my last 4 lines?
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| 10:10 | <alkisg1> knipwim: nope, let me see the logs...
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| 10:13 | <knipwim> btw, i'd rather have subdirs for distro's in /client/share
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| 10:13 | <alkisg> knipwim: I think we should unity the trunk layout to use the same scheme for all dirs. E.g. now we have init-ltsp.d/common and init-ltsp.d/distro, it would be the same in etc/, however we'd do it
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| 10:14 | client/share and client/share.distro? etc and etc.distro? they should be similar though
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| 10:14 | But I don't think that we'll have many common etc/ files, so unless we do find some, we could put them in examples/ till then
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| 10:14 | <knipwim> sure, but we still get a lot of dirs in the tree
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| 10:14 | in /client and /server
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| 10:15 | <alkisg> For share/, we only need one, so that will cover init-ltsp.d too
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| 10:15 | E.g. share/init-ltsp.d (common scripts there) and share/init-ltsp.d.Ubuntu
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| 10:15 | Sorry
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| 10:15 | share.Ubuntu/init-ltsp.d
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| 10:16 | So we'd only have different distro dirs for share, not for subfolders
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| 10:17 | But for /etc I don't know... e.g. if an ubuntu user wants to use xinetd, he could just use the example provided by fedora or gentoo
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| 10:17 | <knipwim> i think i would rather see /share/common/init-ltsp.d and /share/Ubuntu/init-ltsp.d
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| 10:17 | <alkisg> And even in Ubuntu, ltsp-server-standalone would use different etc/ files than ltsp-server-dnsmasq
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| 10:17 | OK, sure, no problem there
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| 10:18 | <alkisg> So for configuration files I'm not sure how much sense it has. Maybe an examples/common dir, and examples/distro dirs?
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| 10:18 | And packages can reuse the examples provided there
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| 10:18 | Currently ltsp-server in Ubuntu ships: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/80_ltsp-sound /etc/network/if-up.d/ltsp-keys ==> and the second one is not even needeed anymore
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| 10:19 | <knipwim> you're probably right on configuration files not being shared throughout distro's
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| 10:19 | doc/examples/$tool would be better
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| 10:19 | <alkisg> ltsp-client-core ships more: /etc/init/ltsp-client-core.conf /etc/kernel/postrm.d /etc/kernel/postinst.d /etc/init.d/ltsp-client-core /etc/kernel/postrm.d/ltsp-update-kernels /etc/kernel/postinst.d/ltsp-update-kernels
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| 10:20 | <knipwim> like doc/examples/xinetd.d/nbdswapd and doc/examples/dnsmasq/dnsmasq.conf
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| 10:20 | <alkisg> Right, as long as they're not completely distro-specific, when they'd go under examples/distro instead
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| 10:21 | To simplify packaging, maybe the $tool/ folder can be omitted
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| 10:21 | So as to copy everything under examples/common and everything under examples/$distro
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| 10:21 | <knipwim> packagers wouldn't select all examples, just pick to appropriate ones
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| 10:21 | <alkisg> Why not all common/ and $distro/ examples?
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| 10:22 | (with symlinks where appropriate)
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| 10:22 | <knipwim> perhaps some distro's share the same tools
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| 10:22 | like gentoo and fedora could share dracut configs
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| 10:22 | <alkisg> Derivatives like ubuntu can copy common/, debian/ and ubuntu/
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| 10:22 | Similar distros can use symlinks
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| 10:23 | <knipwim> hehe, again the symlinks
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| 10:23 | <alkisg> (same would be for /usr/share/ltsp, the share/ trunk folder)
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| 10:23 | There would only be a few symlinks in this case though
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| 10:24 | <knipwim> ok, sound like plan then, doc/examples/common and doc/examples/$distro
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| 10:25 | <alkisg> I'm no packager though, vagrantc is probably a better person to talk about this
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| 10:25 | <knipwim> now figure out who uses what
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| 10:25 | <alkisg> Yeah, that would be solved with symlinks
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| 10:25 | Now one would have to look at each distro packaging to see if it uses it
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| 10:26 | <knipwim> i could do that for debian and ubuntu
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| 10:26 | but i've no idea about suse or fedora
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| 10:26 | <alkisg> No complains at all from me :)
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| 10:27 | <knipwim> or even if altlinux is using the latest upstream code
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| 10:27 | <alkisg> Maybe a mail in the ltsp-developers list is good enough to get feedback, if no feedback comes then we're good to go :)
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| 10:28 | We could have dirs for bin and sbin too
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| 10:31 | <knipwim> hmm, an sbin just for init-ltsp?
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| 10:31 | seems overkill
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| 10:31 | <alkisg> /usr/sbin/inventory
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| 10:31 | /usr/sbin/jetpipe
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| 10:31 | /usr/sbin/ltsp-remoteappsd
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| 10:31 | /usr/sbin/nbd-client-proxy
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| 10:31 | /usr/sbin/nbd-proxy
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| 10:32 | <knipwim> ah, usr sbin :)
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| 10:33 | <alkisg> Maybe it would be better to assume that ltsp-trunk/client/ means <common>, so it would have a share/ subdir etc, and ltsp-trunk/client/$distro/ follows the exact same structure, overriding ltsp-trunk/client/
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| 10:33 | So the Ubuntu packaging for share/* would be:
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| 10:33 | client/share/*
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| 10:33 | client/Debian/share/*
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| 10:33 | client/Ubuntu/share/*
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| 10:35 | <alkisg> Or maybe even the distro dirs could be in ltsp-trunk/distro, and have client/ and server/ etc subdirs. Anyway my point is that it might be better to only have 1 distro specific dir per distro.
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| 10:35 | We'd easily know who maintains what then
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| 10:35 | And it'd probably be much easier for packaging
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| 10:37 | <knipwim> agreed
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| 10:37 | but then i like the client/share/* client/Debian/share/* option best
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| 10:37 | ideally, everything in client should be common
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| 10:38 | so we can do client/k12linux/templates and client/k12linux/scripts
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| 10:38 | <alkisg> client/template/k12linux/ => client/k21linux/template/, hehe that's what I was writing :D
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| 10:39 | <knipwim> great minds ... :)
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| 10:40 | <alkisg> The dirs other than server/ and client/ don't seem to have much distro-specific code
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| 10:40 | So yeah, server/$distro and client/$distro dirs sound good
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| 10:41 | And other than those, server/* and client/* would be considered "common"
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| 10:41 | <knipwim> shall i reply to your topic in the mailinglist
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| 10:41 | with a summary of this discussion
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| 10:41 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 10:42 | You could even write it to the wiki first
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| 10:42 | <knipwim> and wait a week or so before implementing it
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| 10:42 | <alkisg> And mail the link
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| 10:42 | <knipwim> good idea
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| 10:42 | <alkisg> That way we can update the proposal when needed or when we have new ideas
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| 10:46 | http://wiki/source-layout (or SourceLayout) might be OK for the URL. We could even put that as a text file in trunk...
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| 10:48 | ltsp-trunk/server/doc/CodingStyle => similar to what we're saying now, those docs should be in common/* instead, as they're valid for both server and client
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| 12:21 | <Hyperbyte> Hey Gary!
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| 12:35 | <knipwim> alkisg: i would want a doc/examples/tools/xinetd.d/nbdwapd and a symlink to doc/examples/Gentoo/xinetd.d/nbdwapd for instance
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| 12:35 | to have a better distinction of total available tools and distro supporting them
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| 12:35 | erm
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| 12:36 | symlink to /server/Gentoo/doc/examples/xinetd.d/nbdswapd
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| 12:36 | the doc/examples/tools is common code
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| 14:24 | <alkisg1> (03:35:43 μμ) knipwim: to have a better distinction of total available tools and distro supporting them => my thought is, if it's common, it's supported everywhere, otherwise it should be in a distro dir
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| 14:24 | (in) common
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| 14:26 | xinetd runs on ubuntu too, it works with ltsp if someone manually configures it
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| 14:26 | The defaults that each distro ltsp packages use doesn't matter much, e.g. ltsp-server-standalone uses different tools from ltsp-server-dnsmasq on Ubuntu
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| 14:28 | <alkisg> knipwim: /client/share/xinitrc.d => does this go in /usr/share/ltsp/xinitrc.d/ on Gentoo?
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| 14:29 | Meh sorry I read "xinetd.d" :P
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| 14:31 | Looks good, send the mail :)
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| 14:32 | <knipwim> nothing on the bins and sbins ?
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| 14:32 | or leave that for a later discussion :)
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| 14:34 | <alkisg> Let's make a small list of stuff that needs to be moved:
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| 14:34 | client/chroot-setup => in client/k12linux/chroot-setup
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| 14:34 | client/functions/$distro => in client/$distro/share/ltsp-client-vendor-functions
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| 14:35 | client/init-ltsp.d/$distro => client/$distro/init-ltsp.d
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| 14:35 | initramfs ==> maybe in client/debian/initramfs, if only debian/ubuntu use it?
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| 14:36 | client/initscripts/$distro => client/$distro/initscripts
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| 14:36 | client/initscripts/ltsp-core.upstart => client/ubuntu/initscripts
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| 14:36 | <knipwim> yes on the initramfs
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| 14:37 | <alkisg> client/rwtab.d => client/k12linux/rwtab.d/
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| 14:38 | client/screen.d => client/share/screen.d, and also for the others I forgot, init-ltsp.d and ltsp_config.d
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| 14:38 | And screen-session.d too
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| 14:38 | <knipwim> client/scripts/k12linux/ => client/k12linux/scripts
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| 14:38 | client/template/k12linux/ => client/k12linux/template
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| 14:38 | <alkisg> client/xinitrc.d => client/share/xinitrc.d
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| 14:39 | configure-x.sh => share/configure-x.sh
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| 14:39 | init-ltsp => sbin/init-ltsp ? TODO
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| 14:39 | kioskSession => share/kioskSession
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| 14:39 | ltsp-client-common-functions, ltsp-client-functions => client/share/
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| 14:40 | <knipwim> screen_session => share/screen_session
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| 14:40 | <alkisg> ltsp_config => lib/ltsp_config ? TODO
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| 14:40 | <knipwim> update-kernels => share/update-kernels
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| 14:40 | <alkisg> nbd-disconnect => share/nbd-disconnect
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| 14:42 | <knipwim> screen-x-common => share/screen-x-common
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| 14:42 | <alkisg> (05:40:29 μμ) alkisg: ltsp_config => lib/ltsp_config ? ==> don't know why that's also symlinked in lib, sorry, it should go in share/
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| 14:43 | Ubuntu has some symlinks in /usr/lib/ltsp, dunno why, we can probably drop them
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| 14:43 | <knipwim> i think that was the old location
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| 14:44 | there are a couple of scripts also loooking in /usr/lib/ltsp, for backward compatability
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| 14:45 | <alkisg> bin/ makes no sense, the binaries that go there are all over the place
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| 14:45 | So I withdraw my proposal about it :)
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| 14:46 | We may put init-ltsp to scripts/ if we want
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| 14:46 | Or leave it as is
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| 14:46 | <knipwim> and jetpipe and getltscfg
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| 14:49 | <alkisg> Why aren't localapps in client/ ?
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| 14:49 | And nbd-proxy in client/Ubuntu/nbd-proxy
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| 14:51 | I think the best way to represent all that is... to clone the branch and do the renames and make a merge request
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| 14:51 | One can navigate to see the final structure, and there's no overhead for us to write the same things twice when the branch is merged, it's just 1 command
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| 14:52 | And one can look at the diff for the moves
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| 14:52 | * knipwim likes | |
| 14:53 | <knipwim> and i can do this
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| 14:53 | <alkisg> Cool
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| 14:54 | vagrantc mentioned that he liked the shared/ idea, so extending it wouldn't make him object, I presume
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| 14:55 | <knipwim> shall i do the client/localapps and client/Ubuntu/nbd-proxy as well
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| 14:55 | ?
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| 14:55 | <alkisg> I'd vote yes
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| 14:56 | <knipwim> hehe :)
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| 15:28 | <knipwim> alkisg: is ltsp-core.upstart only for ubuntu? or can i put it in the debian dir
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| 15:28 | same for nbdproxy
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| 15:29 | <alkisg> knipwim: http://packages.debian.org/sid/i386/ltsp-client-core/filelist
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| 15:29 | Not there
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| 15:31 | (vs http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/i386/ltsp-client-core/filelist ==> /etc/init/ltsp-client-core.conf)
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| 15:31 | nbd-proxy is in debian, so I'd put it in Debian/, yeah
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| 15:52 | <knipwim> alkisg vagrantc : https://code.launchpad.net/~wimmuskee/ltsp/ltsp-restructure-the-tree
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| 15:52 | vagrantc: alkisg and i just discussed these changes
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| 15:59 | <vagrantc> knipwim: so the idea is that share goes into /usr/share/ltsp, basically?
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| 15:59 | (and other dirs go similarly)
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| 15:59 | might bee worth making upstream makefiles
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| 16:05 | <vagrantc> knipwim: no real objection.
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| 16:06 | i presume that's only the beginning?
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| 16:10 | <alkisg> Is anyone still using ltsp-bindmounts? Gentoo?
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| 16:11 | Thanks knipwim looks good to me
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| 16:13 | vagrantc: I guess the server/ dir also needs some restructuring
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| 16:14 | But other than that, that's pretty much it... afaik
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| 16:16 | <vagrantc> we've made so many changes that assume a writeable /, i wonder if it would even be feasible to try ltsp-bindmounts
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| 16:17 | i think i don't even ship it in debian's packages anymore
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| 16:18 | oh, i guess i do ship it
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| 16:19 | <alkisg> I think gentoo's still using it...
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| 16:20 | <vagrantc> knipwim: i'd go ahead and merge your branch changes in
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| 16:20 | <alkisg> I think we should wait for the server/ dir too
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| 16:20 | E.g. /server/doc/CodingStyle goes in common/ or in common/docs
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| 16:21 | And functions/$distro in $distro/share/*
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| 16:23 | <vagrantc> that's what i meant when i said i presumed there were more changes
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| 16:24 | <alkisg> Yeah we only discussed the client/ dir so far, but the server/ dir needs similar changes
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| 16:24 | config/$distro => $distro/config
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| 16:25 | plugins => share/plugins
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| 16:25 | scripts/$distro => $distro/scripts
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| 16:28 | <vagrantc> will this be ltsp 5.4.x? :)
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| 16:28 | not really code changes, but patches for 5.3.x aren't going to apply anymore
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| 16:29 | * vagrantc finds the ltsp-*-common symlinks to be silly | |
| 16:30 | <alkisg> An ltsp-common package would solve that problem, but it sounds like overkill...
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| 16:30 | * vagrantc would also like to find an excuse to put ltsp-localapps into it's own package | |
| 16:30 | <alkisg> Does the code work without that? Don't other parts rely on localapps?
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| 16:31 | <vagrantc> i frequently have application servers that do not have LTSP installed.
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| 16:31 | i.e. ldm-server is installed, ltsp-server is not.
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| 16:31 | localapps still work fine- it's just a call to xprop ... it's mostly handledn client side
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| 16:32 | <alkisg> X99-ltsp-logout-action => that shouldn't be in localapps, should it?
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| 16:33 | <vagrantc> that is weird.
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| 16:34 | <alkisg> And fat clients wouldn't work with localapps disabled, due to user accounts handling...
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| 16:34 | <vagrantc> and it's my fault ...
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| 16:34 | mostly, i want the server-side localapps functionality split into a separate package ... but it might not be worth it.
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| 16:35 | probably just shunted the ldm-rc.d in there because it needed to go there, but it really probably belongs in client/share/ldm/rc.d/
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| 16:36 | <alkisg> That sounds better
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| 16:38 | <vagrantc> if upstream had a Makefile to handle the ltsp-common-functions -> ltsp-server-common-functions/ltsp-client-common-functions magic, the stupid symlinks could go away
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| 16:40 | * vagrantc suspects ltsp-trunk/TODO can go away | |
| 16:41 | <knipwim> alkisg: gentoo doesn't use ltsp-bindmounts
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| 16:49 | <vagrantc> probably should kill it then
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| 16:49 | * vagrantc doesn't look back | |
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| 17:05 | <alkisg> TODO can go in a wiki roadmap page
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| 17:10 | Till now, ltsp-update-image had a --options parameter, which wrote the info to $chroot/etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf, then ran `chroot $chroot update-kernels`, which generated boot/pxelinux.cfg/default, and then it ran ltsp-update-kernels to copy that file into TFTP.
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| 17:10 | I think I'll kill that, while it's convinient to be able to do it with a single parameter, it's so messed up that noone knows how to use it
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| 17:11 | For now I think I'll go with update-kernels generating a proper config. The sysadmin will be responsible to put the info in $chroot/etc/update-kernels.conf,
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| 17:12 | <alkisg> and for the future, ltsp-server will ship a pxelinux-menus script that will check the chroot and generate appropriate sections (or include files) in the master pxelinux.cfg/default
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| 17:12 | So only small changes for now
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| 17:55 | <vagrantc> hm.
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| 18:03 | knipwim: does gentoo publish versions of ltsp, ldm and ltspfs, or do users always build right from bzr?
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| 18:11 | just wondering if it'd be useful to monitor gentoo's uploaded versions for me.
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| 18:48 | <knipwim> vagrantc: gentoo builds versions from bzr, based on the tags
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| 18:55 | the package files are uploaded here: http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitweb/?p=proj/ltsp.git;a=summary
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| 19:17 | <vagrantc> knipwim: ok, well, that probably won't be a useful view to poll for new versions, then. no worries.
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| 19:20 | <alkisg> knipwim: since vagrantc also agrees, I think there's no need to wait a whole week for feedback, a couple of days would be fine (so that we start the ltsp-server-dnsmasq packaging after that commit)
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| 19:24 | <vagrantc> knipwim: yes, go for the restructure
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| 19:24 | sooner is better, as i need to have it all sorted out by end of may
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| 19:27 | <knipwim> okay, i can get some server stuff done tonight
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| 19:28 | but tomorrow is my last day being able to work on it till next weekend
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| 19:29 | so it has to be done tomorrow, or next weekend
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| 19:44 | <alkisg> knipwim: commit whatever you have tomorrow, and we can continue if there are any things left
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| 19:44 | <knipwim> kk
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| 19:44 | i'm still not fully confident the tool examples shouldn't go in a generic tool dir
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| 19:45 | what if no distro uses the tool configs anymore
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| 19:45 | couldn't they still be useful for other distro's?
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| 19:46 | <alkisg> If configuration examples are useful, they should be there in case some user needs them, not in case some distro needs them
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| 19:46 | E.g. a dnsmasq config is there now, even if no distro uses dnsmasq in its ltsp packaging
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| 19:46 | So, xinetd configuration should be in "common", even if debian and ubuntu don't use it
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