IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 24 February 2014 (all times are UTC)
| 00:03 | <TheProf> !pastebin
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| 00:03 | <ltsp`> pastebin: the LTSP pastebin is at http://ltsp.pastebin.com. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebin, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. Don't forget to paste the URL of the text here.
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| 00:07 | <TheProf> Hello. I hope you are all doing well. I am super-frustrated and am begging for help please. My lts.conf is entirely being ignored and I've spent 3 hours trying to determine why. Two versions: one works, one doesn't, and the only difference is a commented line
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| 00:07 | Works: http://pastebin.com/9e8ZdqmU
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| 00:07 | Fails: http://pastebin.com/KzdBc5AF
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| 00:08 | I don't have any more hair to pull out :(
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| 00:09 | I am attempting to get the printer working. The server isn't reading any changes - there's no shell login screen, nothing. It just hangs if I remove the comment in front of the x_color_depth=16
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| 00:13 | <ccat> TheProf: no idea, but have you tried other vals, like 32?
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| 00:13 | <TheProf> ccat: Hello. It doesn't seem to be an issue with the x_color_depth value. If I uncomment the line above or below it, it also crashes.
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| 00:14 | It seems like there's an error in parsing the lts.conf and it just hangs
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| 00:14 | If everything is commented out, it works.
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| 00:15 | <ccat> TheProf: when was the last time you had a fully working config?
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| 00:15 | --file
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| 00:16 | <TheProf> ccat: the file has been fine for about 18 months no problem. I never needed to change anything so it was always just the default with no options.
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| 00:17 | I wanted to add the settings for the thin client so I added a new section under [default] and that's when I noticed the problems arising. It was never reading the settings under the thin client part so I worked backwards
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| 00:17 | and realized it's not reading the stuff under [default] either.
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| 00:18 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: i'd put the comment for the mac-address specified stanza after the mac address
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| 00:19 | just a hunch, but i seem to recall having similar problems
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| 00:19 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: Hello. I think I've done it that way. The mac-specific items are after the mac address within the stanza
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| 00:19 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: yes, but you have a comment immediately before it
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| 00:19 | <TheProf> the x_color thing was just to test if it's reading the file at all
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| 00:19 | <ccat> TheProf: "It was never reading the settings under the thin client part" ??
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| 00:20 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: "# Front Desk Computer where HP Laserjet Printer is located"
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| 00:20 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: Oh I understand.
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| 00:20 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: move that after the mac address line
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| 00:20 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: Right.
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| 00:20 | vagrantc_: I'll try that now.
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| 00:20 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: might not help...
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| 00:20 | TheProf: but i have a vague memory of needing to do that
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| 00:21 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: I'll try anything whatsoever. I need to go up and down a flight for each test (adding to the frustration) so I'm trying that now.
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| 00:21 | <vagrantc_> ouch
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| 00:21 | * vagrantc_ suggests virtual thin clients for testing | |
| 00:23 | <ccat> TheProf: however, as there are also comments after that section, then post-section comments work, so perhaps a dummy section at the very top?
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| 00:24 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: virtual thin clients is something I know nothing about but may need to as I'm losing weight doing this.
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| 00:24 | just tested the comment change - no effect. still hangs
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| 00:25 | ccat: by a dummy section do you mean another stanza?
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| 00:27 | From what I see if everything in the file is commented out, it loads. If you uncomment the thin client settings, it loads but ignores whatever you put. If you uncomment things from the default section, it crashes
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| 00:27 | <ccat> TheProf: no, just a section-tag like [dummy-section] or [system notes]
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| 00:27 | <TheProf> ccat: OK I'll try that now.
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| 00:27 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: running it through getltscfg manually produces a syntax error
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| 00:28 | TheProf: probably want to do that before running up and down stairs :)
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| 00:29 | TheProf: what version of ltsp?
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| 00:29 | <ccat> vagrantc_: which are the "thin client settings" ?
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| 00:29 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: getltscfg not installed by default. I'm running Edubuntu 12.04 LTS which I think is LTSP 5 I believe
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| 00:30 | <vagrantc_> long long ago, there was a bug that required there to be enttries in the [default] section ...
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| 00:30 | maybe something's triggering that, or it got reverted
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| 00:31 | TheProf: adding "DUMMY_VALUE=true" seems a viable workaround
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| 00:31 | TheProf: you can put arbitrary values in there...
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| 00:33 | <ccat> vagrantc_: are the thin client settings below this? [00:22:64:BB:60:A8]
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| 00:33 | <TheProf> ccat: your idea of putting a fake or dummy header worked. The thin client boots
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| 00:33 | But nothing under is taking effect on the thin client
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| 00:33 | <ccat> :)
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| 00:33 | :(
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| 00:34 | <TheProf> I put screen_07=shell
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| 00:34 | but it still boots to the gui
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| 00:34 | vagrantc_: should I be putting that dummy-value=true under the fake header?
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| 00:34 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: try with a dummy value in the [default] section
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| 00:34 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: OK
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| 00:35 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: apparently, you're triggering some bug that requires there to always be something in [default]
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| 00:35 | <ccat> TheProf: is this a client of the pc several stairs away?
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| 00:35 | <vagrantc_> thought we fixed that... but apparently not
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| 00:35 | <TheProf> ccat: yes it is
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| 00:35 | <ccat> TheProf: can you now conn to that pc?
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| 00:36 | <TheProf> ccat: I can get it to boot but not take on any of its thin client settings.
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| 00:36 | Let me rephrase it like this:
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| 00:36 | if I don't put that [dummy] header, no thin client in the building boots.
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| 00:37 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: i'd remove the [dummy] and just use a dummy value in [default]
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| 00:37 | <TheProf> putting the [dummy] headers gets them to boot but not to read any of the settings in lts.conf
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| 00:37 | OK
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| 00:37 | <ccat> TheProf: but can you reach the other pc now, and edit, so you don't have to do so by foot?
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| 00:38 | <TheProf> ccat: I have been doing that but whenever I trigger an error that causes it to not boot, i have to head back to the server room.
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| 00:38 | So it's sorta like roulette in that sense. Comment out the line, reboot - yay! no stairs
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| 00:38 | Comment out another line - crash! head downstairs, reverse changes, etc.
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| 00:39 | <ccat> TheProf: can you get 2 clients side-by-side?
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| 00:39 | * vagrantc_ hands TheProf "ssh" | |
| 00:39 | <TheProf> ccat: that is a smarter solution but in my frustration I wasn't thinking it.
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| 00:40 | vagrantc_: I wasn't sure how ssh would help me for this
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| 00:41 | <ccat> TheProf: so think it now! and triple your productivity (at expense of waistline alas)
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| 00:41 | <vagrantc_> if you have a machine you can reliably ssh to to the server with, then you don't have to run up and down the stairs...
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| 00:42 | <TheProf> Does not boot. This is what it looks like: http://pastebin.com/gciv5xw8
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| 00:43 | <ccat> vagrantc_: can you maintain the ssh link (for config) and the ltsp link (being tested) independently?
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| 00:43 | <vagrantc_> there is also a bug in jetpipe that caused this behavior...
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| 00:43 | ccat: i really don't understand what you're asking
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| 00:44 | at least on debian.
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| 00:44 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: the problem is happening without the printer parameters. I'm working on that thin client and if it's correct, when it boots I should just see a shell. But I don't - I see the gui
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| 00:45 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: so edit your chroot in /opt/ltsp/*/usr/share/ltsp/init-ltsp.d/ ....
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| 00:45 | * vagrantc_ looks up the exact script | |
| 00:45 | <vagrantc_> it's /opt/ltsp/*/usr/share/ltsp/init-ltsp.d/*jetpipe
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| 00:46 | if you comment out the line that starts jetpipe, run ltsp-update-image, my guess is it will work
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| 00:46 | well, it will boot
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| 00:46 | but it won't allow you to print anything, of course
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| 00:46 | but i think this is a bug i worked around in debian with a different patch
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| 00:47 | * vagrantc_ bets there's a ppa with a version built that's patched properly... | |
| 00:47 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: If I understand you correctly, the fact I'm trying to hook up a printer is causing this?
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| 00:48 | vagrantc_: Because I believe even if I erase all the lines related to the printe configuration it still causes the same problem.
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| 00:48 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: basically, yes. there's a bug in the code that starts the printer, it starts it *way* too early in the bootprocess, and it fails to daemonize
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| 00:48 | hrm.
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| 00:49 | <TheProf> OK I can test this by eraseing everything related to the printer to check if that would help
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| 00:49 | <vagrantc_> there is a syntax error in your lts.conf, too, but it shouldn't matter
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| 00:50 | <vagrantc_> since you didn't need to set any values before, it probably was silently erroring out
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| 00:50 | but i bet setting any client-specific values would have been silently ignored
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| 00:51 | so by working around the syntax error in your lts.conf, it triggered the jetpipe bug... at least, that's my diagnosis so far.
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| 00:52 | <TheProf> My ideal test is just a simple 'yes it's reading or not it's not reading' lts.conf. I thought the screen shell command would do it
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| 00:52 | I might as well erase everything from lts.conf including comments, just leave default and the thin client stanza and see what happens?
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| 00:52 | vagrantc_: right.
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| 00:52 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: OK. so the test of this would be see if I remove all the jetpipe stuff, set the screen=shell and see that is followed
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| 00:55 | well that's upsetting. Only 4 lines and it failed: http://pastebin.com/JvFQjbqh
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| 00:55 | <vagrantc_> my tests suggests there *must* be something set in [default] or it will ignore everything
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| 00:55 | i.e. syntax error
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| 00:55 | <ccat> TheProf: you are just erasing a temp renamed config file?, so you always have a work-on version
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| 00:56 | <vagrantc_> [default]
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| 00:56 | <TheProf> ccat: I'm sorry I don't understand your question.
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| 00:56 | <vagrantc_> dummy_value=dummy_value
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| 00:56 | [foo]
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| 00:56 | screen_08=shell
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| 00:57 | hrm.
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| 00:57 | TheProf: so, how exactly did it fail? fail to boot? boot to the wrong thing?
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| 00:58 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: yes sorry I didn't clarify. When it boots up it finds the server, then loads up a 'loading' screen from edubuntu with 4 dots. and just freezes on that screen
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| 00:58 | <vagrantc_> hrm.
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| 00:58 | <ccat> TheProf: instead of repeatedly deleting and retyping blocks in your config file, are you just deleting them from a temp copy and renaming it to be the config
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| 00:58 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: which file are you editing?
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| 00:59 | <TheProf> I am editing /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/amd64/lts.conf The changes take effect immediately
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| 00:59 | ccat: I'm been making backup copies from a working version I had in a different directory
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| 01:00 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: changes will require a reboot to take effect
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| 01:00 | of the client
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| 01:01 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: Yes I've been rebooting each time I make a change
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| 01:01 | <ccat> TheProf: do you have an original copy made before starting this new setup?
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| 01:01 | <TheProf> ccat: Yes I made two copies in two different places just to be sure :)
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| 01:02 | <ccat> TheProf: copy one and try it
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| 01:02 | <TheProf> ccat: the original working one back in? Sure
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| 01:02 | <ccat> y
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| 01:05 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: try disabling the bootsplash screen
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| 01:05 | <TheProf> alright I've copied my original one back in and heading up to test
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| 01:05 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: it might show some errors or something...
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| 01:05 | <TheProf> brb staircase
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| 01:07 | ccat: original lts.conf works fine
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| 01:07 | <ccat> TheProf: thought you were going to put 2 clients side-by-side
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| 01:07 | <vagrantc_> in that it allows boot to continue...
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| 01:07 | <TheProf> ccat: hooking it up requires finding another machine and wiring up the appropriate network cables through the patch panels, different lans etc.
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| 01:07 | vagrantc_: yes all the way to the login screen
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| 01:08 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: i've gotta head out soon.
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| 01:09 | <TheProf> this is the configuration that is currently working: http://pastebin.com/YBQRXwc3
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| 01:09 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: if it really is the jetpipe bug:
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| 01:09 | Bug-Debian: http://bugs.debian.org/700881
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| 01:09 | Upstream-Bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/996533
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| 01:09 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: I understand. OK
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| 01:09 | <vagrantc_> it has very similar symptoms
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| 01:09 | <TheProf> but I think this working one is just ignoring everything
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| 01:09 | <ccat> TheProf: oh well --- http://pastebin.com/JvFQjbqh try changing [default] to [blabla]
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| 01:09 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: yes, if you run getltscfg on it, it just errors out with a syntax error
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| 01:10 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: OK.
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| 01:10 | ccat: I'm making that change now
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| 01:10 | <ccat> hm, nm
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| 01:10 | <TheProf> oh ok.
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| 01:10 | <vagrantc_> it always needs to either be empty or contain at least two lines: [default] variable1=value1
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| 01:12 | actually, apparently it doesn't require default anymore
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| 01:12 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: I could try to get rid of default
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| 01:12 | <ccat> TheProf: did we try moving the [default] section to the bottom?
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| 01:12 | <TheProf> ccat: we tried putting something on top of it only.
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| 01:12 | the options are - move to the bottom or delete entirely
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| 01:13 | <ccat> -- after the new printer section
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| 01:13 | <vagrantc_> at least on my debian wheezy environment, getltscfg (which is the binary that parses lts.conf) needs at least one value set for every section defined.
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| 01:14 | <TheProf> ccat: on the most recent working version correct?
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| 01:14 | <vagrantc_> order doesn't matter.
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| 01:14 | <ccat> TheProf: no, one of the bad ones
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| 01:14 | <TheProf> ccat: alright
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| 01:20 | I reversed it and it did not boot. http://pastebin.com/ibbjigCx
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| 01:20 | How do you turn off the splash screen?
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| 01:23 | <ccat> vagrantc_: can you maintain the ssh link you suggested for doing this config, if you still have to keep rebooting the pc with the faulty ltsp link?
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| 01:24 | <TheProf> ccat: This is a good point. Else you need to physically be at the machine
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| 01:24 | I found the instructions to remove the slash screen.
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| 01:25 | <ccat> TheProf: now try changing [default] to [blabla]
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| 01:26 | <TheProf> ccat: the current lts.conf is non-functional. Should I change it in that one?
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| 01:26 | <ccat> y
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| 01:26 | <TheProf> OK
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| 01:29 | ccat: I changed it and it did not work. Removing the splash screen didn't entirely work - it gave me a couple more lines during booting and then put up the splash screen again - just a bit later
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| 01:30 | <vagrantc_> you need a var=value for each [stanza]
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| 01:31 | <TheProf> oh wait, there's another line on the splash file = plymoth:force_splash
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| 01:31 | I didn't get rid of that one.
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| 01:31 | vagrantc_: I have one variable in each stanza
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| 01:31 | <vagrantc_> TheProf: ok, good.
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| 01:32 | <TheProf> under default I have sound=true, under the mac address i have screen_07=shell
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| 01:35 | Nope. That plymouth line seems to be needed. Without it, the thin client loads the image file from the server, then the monitor goes to sleep!
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| 01:39 | <vagrantc_> !splash
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| 01:39 | <ltsp`> splash: to disable the splash screen in Ubuntu, in order to see any boot error messages, run `sudo gedit /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default` and remove quiet splash .
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| 01:39 | <TheProf> vagrantc_: Yes I did that.
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| 01:40 | <vagrantc_> just seeing if there's anything more useful hidden there
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| 01:40 | <TheProf> It allowed me to see 2 more lines.
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| 01:40 | the line where you have the .................... as it loads
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| 01:40 | and then one more line that ended in OK
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| 01:40 | <vagrantc_> right
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| 01:42 | TheProf: well, good luck!
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| 01:42 | * vagrantc_ waves | |
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| 01:43 | <ccat> TheProf: in all No cases, both default and ::section have values
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| 01:45 | <TheProf> And he left just when it got interesting!
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| 01:45 | ccat: So I just found this situation out:
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| 01:45 | I stripped out spaces between lines, indents, etc.
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| 01:46 | And it doesn't work in this case:[default]
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| 01:46 | SOUND=true
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| 01:46 | [00:22:64:BB:60:A8]
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| 01:46 | SCREEN_07=shell
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| 01:46 | But it does work if you comment out the last line!
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| 01:46 | #SCREEN_07=shell boots
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| 01:46 | <ccat> TheProf: see above :)
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| 01:47 | <TheProf> ccat: ah...yes :)
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| 01:47 | <ccat> now repeat but c-out just [def]
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| 01:47 | <TheProf> the sound line? and leave the header?
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| 01:47 | <ccat> -- sorry, just the sound
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| 01:48 | y
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| 01:48 | <TheProf> OK
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| 01:48 | It should work. Checking
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| 01:51 | ccat: yes it worked. Doesn't this mean it's just ignoring the lts.conf file and working off some sort of default settings elsewhere?
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| 01:53 | This is driving me nuts.
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| 01:54 | <ccat> TheProf: it means you can have defaults OR customized settings -- but not BOTH ! :D
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| 01:55 | --- well, so far
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| 01:56 | <TheProf> ccat: I'm OK with customized settings - but from what I can tell there's no customized settings that are carried out, because screen_07=shell never works
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| 01:56 | <ccat> TheProf: even with #sound ?
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| 01:59 | <TheProf> ccat: I misunderstood your instructions earlier. I commented out both sound and screen. I'll uncomment screen and see what it does
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| 02:02 | ccat: OK. Uncommenting screen_07=shell allows it to boot correctly but does not show you a shell. It loads the regular GUI
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| 02:03 | So it seems to be ignoring the screen command unless I don't understand what it is suppose to do.
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| 02:03 | <ccat> TheProf: but in all cases if default and ::section both have values it does not even boot?
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| 02:04 | <TheProf> SCREEN_07=shell is suppose to drop you into a shell login correct? I don't need to do ctrl+alt+F7?
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| 02:04 | ccat: Correct if there are uncommented values it fails to boot.
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| 02:05 | <ccat> TheProf: do not know, just trying to find the common patterns for boot and no-boot --- seems we found the latter
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| 02:05 | <TheProf> I ask because ctrl+alt+F1 gives me a shell
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| 02:06 | so let me try changing the screen number
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| 02:08 | ccat: No change. It's for sure not parsing through lts.conf
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| 02:09 | <ccat> TheProf: not even through the original?
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| 02:09 | <TheProf> This is bizzare - the first time I want to modify lts.conf I can't.
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| 02:10 | ccat: the original had no settings that I was ever able to tell if it was parsing or not
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| 02:10 | things like using encrypted vs decrypted traffic - how could I know to check it?
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| 02:11 | <ccat> TheProf: not even colordepth?
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| 02:11 | <TheProf> This is the first time I made a change from the original that would be noticable IE the shell
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| 02:11 | ccat: I changed it to 16 bit from 32 bit. I didn't think I'd notice a different <hangs head in shame>
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| 02:12 | It seems it never actually read lts.conf. I wonder if I have to change the other lts.conf and then re-create the image
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| 02:12 | <ccat> TheProf: maybe. maybe not --- but with SOUND you should get ti loud and clear -- if it works :)
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| 02:12 | -- it
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| 02:12 | <TheProf> ccat: but the default settings is have sound working.
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| 02:13 | So me telling it sound=y isn't relevant to the server if the default is also on.
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| 02:13 | If that makes sense.
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| 02:13 | so instead of turning sound off, I turned shell on
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| 02:13 | <ccat> well, actually soft, and silent, it seems --- but make sure you DO hear it before changing it
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| 02:14 | --- i.e turning it off
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| 02:14 | <TheProf> For sure sound works - we regularly are playing songs, youtube etc.
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| 02:14 | <ccat> then DO set it off
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| 02:14 | -- in the original working one
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| 02:15 | <TheProf> Alright so then allows us to test if default is even being read. So the settings will be [default] sound=off, [mac address]#setting commented out
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| 02:15 | <ccat> y, because anything else not commented and it won't even boot, y
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| 02:16 | --- any other values that is
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| 02:20 | <TheProf> ccat: Nope. So lts.conf currently has:
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| 02:20 | [default]
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| 02:20 | SOUND=false
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| 02:20 | [00:22:64:BB:60:A8]
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| 02:20 | #SCREEN_01=shell
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| 02:20 | Boots = yes
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| 02:20 | Sound yes works
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| 02:21 | <ccat> ok, so either it ignored Sound, or it ignored the whole config
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| 02:21 | <TheProf> ccat: it seems be ignoring the whole config.
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| 02:21 | because this was under default, not a specific thin client
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| 02:21 | <ccat> ok, so now comment the [mac] header
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| 02:21 | <TheProf> OK
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| 02:22 | ccat: working your way up?
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| 02:22 | <ccat> is this not a master config file for all clients?
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| 02:22 | you mean p the configs?
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| 02:22 | -- up
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| 02:25 | <TheProf> ccat: yes this is the master one for all thin clients. It currently reads:
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| 02:25 | [default]
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| 02:25 | SOUND=false
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| 02:25 | #[00:22:64:BB:60:A8]
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| 02:25 | #SCREEN_01=shell
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| 02:25 | client booted correctly and there was sound yes
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| 02:27 | <ccat> re "because this was under default, not a specific thin client" -- no client should have sound now
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| 02:28 | <TheProf> ccat: I agree no client should have sound but there was clearly sound on youtube
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| 02:29 | <ccat> ok, back to orig cfg file --- is there ANYTHING in there that showed a clear sign of becoming enabled by the config?
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| 02:31 | oh, are there ANY other config files? maybe for specific clients?
| |
| 02:31 | --- working files
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| 02:32 | <TheProf> ccat: There is nothing. None of the clients have anything specific for them - this is the first attempt
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| 02:32 | I looked in the logs now and noticed only one different between a thin client that does and does not boot
| |
| 02:32 | the ones that do not boot never display "ltsp nbd_server[15557]: Disconnect request received."
| |
| 02:33 | That's all.
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| 02:34 | <ccat> TheProf: well if it boots, and assumingly connects then it can disconn -- but if it never boots then it never conn, so can't disconn?
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| 02:34 | <TheProf> ccat: fair enough :)
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| 02:36 | <ccat> ok, LDM_LIMIT_ONE_SESSION --- can you conn TWO clients in LDM? -- or is that one client twice?
| |
| 02:37 | <TheProf> LDM_LIMIT is suppose to only let one person log into one machine, so you can't log into multiple machines with the same client.
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| 02:37 | sorry, username
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| 02:39 | <ccat> with the working cfg, you can log into one pc (eg play youtube) do so, then try logging into another at the same time
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| 02:39 | i.e DO "log into multiple machines with the same client"
| |
| 02:39 | -- well try
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| 02:40 | <TheProf> ccat: I just tried something and got a different situation where it crashed
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| 02:40 | [default]
| |
| 02:40 | SOUND=false
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| 02:40 | SCREEN_07=shell
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| 02:40 | <blank line where I pressed enter>
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| 02:40 | #[00:22:64:BB:60:A8]
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| 02:40 | #SCREEN_01=shell
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| 02:40 | That configuration crashed
| |
| 02:40 | the blank line seems to have caused it to fail to boot
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| 02:41 | <ccat> crashed meaning not booted, or worse now?
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| 02:41 | <TheProf> I'm sorry - same
| |
| 02:41 | Not booting
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| 02:41 | frozen.
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| 02:41 | Not responding. It is no more. An ex-thin client :)
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| 02:43 | With regards to the LDM Limit, I remember now from the teachers in the school they are able to log into more than one computer with the same username
| |
| 02:44 | <ccat> TheProf: so if this config file controls their access, then that setting is not working either, y?
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| 02:45 | <TheProf> correct. Despite it being set to limit one login per username in lts.conf it's being ignore by the thin clients.
| |
| 02:45 | however the lack of complete booting based on what's in lts.conf indicates it is being read just not acted upon
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| 02:46 | <ccat> y
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| 02:46 | where did you get that Screen line?
| |
| 02:47 | <TheProf> This is pretty nuts. This is a clean installation with no modifications.
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| 02:47 | I got that line from the lts.conf documentation
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| 02:47 | http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/lucid/man5/lts.conf.5.html
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| 02:47 | <ccat> which is where?
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| 02:47 | <TheProf> There are example entries at the bottom
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| 02:54 | <ccat> y
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| 02:57 | so..... it accesses the file but ignores the contents unless it doesn't like them, whereupon it fails to even boot
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| 02:58 | <TheProf> exactly
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| 02:59 | <ccat> i've got it! I'M dreaming!
| |
| 02:59 | -- but since i can't wake up.... back to work
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| 03:00 | <TheProf> oh man! You got my hopes up for a moment! :)
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| 03:00 | <ccat> what are the permissions on the file?
| |
| 03:01 | <TheProf> Checking
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| 03:02 | 644 root:root
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| 03:04 | <ccat> don't know that form yet --- but file must not be read-only as you just edited it --- what about "can-execute" ?
| |
| 03:05 | <TheProf> root can read yes, write yes, execute no.
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| 03:06 | group is root and can read only, not write, not execute
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| 03:06 | other can only read
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| 03:08 | <ccat> are ltsp and conf in same root?, group?, or other?
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| 03:15 | <TheProf> ccat: I'm not too sure what you mean
| |
| 03:18 | <ccat> if conf is different dir than exe maybe it can't access it properly?
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| 03:20 | <TheProf> I'm not sure - is there a correct way to check?
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| 03:23 | <ccat> hold....
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| 03:23 | <TheProf> thank you
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| 03:29 | <ccat> meanwhile...
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| 03:29 | <TheProf> Looks like it's bad luck I tried the channel during low activity period
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| 03:30 | <ccat> (testing...testing)
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| 03:30 | hmmm
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| 03:31 | <ccat> dir /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/amd64/lts.conf is where conf is --- but where is ltsp's exe?
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| 03:34 | <ccat> TheProf: dir /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/amd64/lts.conf is where conf is --- but where is ltsp's exe?
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| 03:34 | <TheProf> What about/opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ldm/ldm-script ?
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| 03:35 | I'm basing that on this http://www.redhat.com/archives/k12osn/2011-March/msg00075.html which may be similar
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| 03:37 | Or /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ltsp/init-ltsp.d/05-getltsconffile ?
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| 03:38 | <ccat> hold.
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| 03:41 | <TheProf> holding for orders.
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| 03:42 | <ccat> not sure what you mean ---- where is the exe you activate by cmd or click
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| 03:42 | -- re the paths that is
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| 03:43 | <TheProf> ccat: I haven't activated any command that then loads lts.conf
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| 03:44 | <ccat> no no, however you start up ltsp
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| 03:44 | <TheProf> I don't do anything. It's a prebuilt distribution. it starts everything automatically from bootup
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| 03:45 | <stgraber> TheProf: ok, so which lts.conf did you change (fulle path) and what did you put in it?
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| 03:45 | <TheProf> ccat: Edubuntu is ubuntu + ltsp integrated together
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| 03:45 | stgraber: Hello. The full path is:
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| 03:46 | <stgraber> TheProf: you mentioned /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/amd64/lts.conf which seems a bit odd for Edubuntu as we typically only ship a 32bit chroot, making that path /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf instead.
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| 03:46 | <TheProf> the path is /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/amd64/lts.conf
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| 03:47 | I determined that by locate lts.conf
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| 03:47 | and it's what I navigate to to edit
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| 03:47 | under ltsp I only have amd64 no i386 entry
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| 03:47 | <ccat> y, but the ltsp runtime must be somewhere
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| 03:48 | <stgraber> ok, that's not a typical Edubuntu install or if it is, that's a pretty old one. We've been only shipping i386 chroots for the past few years...
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| 03:48 | TheProf: ok, so what's in there now?
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| 03:48 | <TheProf> stgraber: this is a clean install of the 12.04 LTS which I have incrementally updated as point releases are available.
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| 03:48 | Currenlty in the file there is
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| 03:49 | [default]
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| 03:49 | SOUND=false
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| 03:49 | SCREEN_07=shell
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| 03:50 | a blank enter line
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| 03:50 | and 2 more commented out lines:
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| 03:50 | #[00:22:64:BB:60:A8]
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| 03:50 | #SCREEN_01=shell
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| 03:50 | that's all
| |
| 03:50 | this setup will cause the thin client to not boot entirely
| |
| 03:50 | if I remove the blank enter line, it will boot up to a GUI and I can log in
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| 03:51 | but it's ignoring any of the settings in the lts.conf file
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| 03:53 | <ccat> stgraber: are there debug cmdline switches that would show some status of the conf read?
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| 03:53 | <stgraber> ccat: no
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| 03:53 | TheProf: so there's nothing obviously wrong with that config. It should indeed turn off sound support and get you into a shell instead of starting the GUI.
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| 03:54 | <TheProf> stgraber: right. Except it doesn't do either. I have a gui and full sound.
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| 03:54 | But if I make a change in lts.conf it doesn't like it won't boot properly.
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| 03:55 | <stgraber> TheProf: makes me wonder if there's something wrong with the content of that file, that's not immediately visible to the naked eye. Can you do "base64 /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/amd64/lts.conf" and pastebin the result (pastebin.com and give me the resulting url)
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| 03:56 | <TheProf> I can get it to boot by removing the blank line between screen and the commented out mac address but it will still not follow the settings.
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| 03:56 | Sure
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| 03:57 | stgraber: here it is: http://pastebin.com/tQF1n347
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| 03:57 | <ccat> and if you try to do both at the same time in two different [sect] it will not even boot
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| 03:58 | <TheProf> ccat: Yup that's very weird indeed.
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| 04:00 | <stgraber> TheProf: that looks fine...
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| 04:01 | <TheProf> OK.
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| 04:03 | <stgraber> TheProf: sorry I can't help much more, that config really looks like it should be working, you may have more chance with alkisg or vagrantc whenever they show up (although I maintain LTSP in Ubuntu and Edubuntu, I haven't poked at the code in years...)
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| 04:05 | <TheProf> stgraber: thanks for looking into it. vagrantc was helping earlier but we dodm
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| 04:05 | dodm
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| 04:05 | oh man!
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| 04:05 | didn't!
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| 04:06 | have a solution before he had to go.
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| 04:06 | <ccat> TheProf: open a cmd line window
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| 04:06 | <TheProf> ccat: I've got one.
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| 04:07 | <ccat> ok, type "strings -h"
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| 04:08 | did it do anything?
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| 04:09 | <TheProf> ccat: a whole bunch of help settings
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| 04:09 | <ccat> just type "strings"
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| 04:12 | <TheProf> ccat: sorry standby, phone call
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| 04:13 | <ccat> ... dum dee dum doo dee da da Da doo dee dum.... (ascii hold-music)
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| 04:17 | <TheProf> ccat: Sorry about that! It seems I've got to head out, and it's probably good since I've been banging my head about this for the past 5 hours.
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| 04:17 | ccat: Thanks very much for all your help.
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| 04:18 | stgraber: thank you also.
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| 04:18 | <ccat> can you wait 5 more min?
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| 04:18 | TheProf: ?
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| 04:18 | <TheProf> ccat: with an ill spouse calling me? not if i value my life :)
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| 04:18 | <ccat> ok, real quick
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| 04:19 | #1 try -- strings conf-file > clean-conf file
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| 04:19 | #2 try removing indents from all val lines
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| 04:19 | # good luck :D
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| 04:20 | ps --http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/lucid/en/man1/strings.1.html
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| 04:21 | <TheProf> ccat: thanks I've saved the log to deal with it later. Bye!
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| 04:21 | <ccat> ok bb hurry!
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| 06:48 | <ccat> .
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| 06:48 | hello: Does your LDM and this LDM have anything in common? http://www.unidata.ucar.edu/software/ldm/ldm-current/manindex.html
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| 07:00 | <work_alkisg> ccat: no
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| 07:00 | work_alkisg is now known as alkisg | |
| 07:02 | <ccat> alkisg: ok, ty ---- BTW...
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| 07:02 | http://wiki.x2go.org/doku.php/doc:faq
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| 07:02 | "LTSP requires a high bandwidth on your network. It can efficiently be used in Local Area Networks (LANs) only."
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| 07:03 | y/n?
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| 07:04 | <alkisg> ccat: let's say yes
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| 07:05 | <alkisg> But it'd make more sense to state your requirements and ask for advice, instead of asking yes/no questions
| |
| 07:06 | For example, I could use ltsp-client just as a "deep-freeze + remote authentication + remote /home" method, to boot an ltsp client from its local disk and connect to the ltsp server over WAN. The performance there would be fine...
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| 07:07 | (ltsp *fat* client)
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| 07:10 | <ccat> alkisg: well after reading the wiki a bit, thought that site might be mischaracterizing ltps just a little
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| 07:12 | <ccat> alkisg: my needs though would be for a remote graphics workstation desktop -- but ltsp is mostly for just the initial boot if i understand right
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| 07:12 | <alkisg> LTSP is a framework upon which you can do a lot of stuff
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| 07:13 | E.g. you could use virtualgl to propage 3d over the network, upon ltsp
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| 07:13 | LTSP is about remote graphics, sure, but you do need to realize that remote graphics isn't as simple as it sounds
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| 07:14 | <ccat> alkisg: more info please?
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| 07:14 | <alkisg> You need to describe your requirements more
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| 07:14 | Which programs you'll run, client/server specs etc
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| 07:14 | E.g. if you want 3d over the network on ancient clients, just forget it :)
| |
| 07:15 | As vagrantc said, for multimedia apps, fat clients are the best way to go, as long as their specs as good enough
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| 07:15 | (ltsp fat clients)
| |
| 07:16 | XV makes it possible to stream video at low bitrates, so just for video playback, the requirements aren't very high
| |
| 07:16 | There are lots of technologies involved, but you should specify exactly what you need, to select the best options
| |
| 07:17 | <ccat> alkisg: examples: cad, solid-modeling (eg Blender) ---- Just want to send the screen and receive the gui inputs --- All processing on server
| |
| 07:18 | <alkisg> ccat: there's no good technology for what you ask
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| 07:18 | <ccat> -- send the screen at 30 to 60 fps
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| 07:19 | <alkisg> The graphics cards on the server aren't designed to provide acceleration to multiple clients
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| 07:19 | <ccat> oh?, hmmmmm
| |
| 07:19 | <alkisg> So you need to change your requirements to something that's doable
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| 07:19 | You can try with e.g. linux virtualgl or windows remotefx, but don't expect good *or* stable results
| |
| 07:20 | <ccat> no, just whatever is on the screen, send to the client --- like a transparent link
| |
| 07:20 | <alkisg> Maybe after 5-10 years, the *VM software will mature enough to push the graphics cards vendors to support your use case
| |
| 07:20 | On what screen?
| |
| 07:20 | 1 server screen for all clients?
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| 07:21 | It's a "virtual" screen. For 10 clients, you have 10 virtual screens on the server, *without* 3d acceleration
| |
| 07:22 | So it'll fallback to software 3d acceleration, which is extremely slow, no CPU exists that could do that for 10 clients
| |
| 07:23 | ...in other words, my advice to you is "get good clients that can run those apps locally. ltsp is nice to netboot all of them then from a single image"
| |
| 07:23 | <ccat> alkisg: y, 1 server with graphics card as usual but no monitor or kb or mouse -- just sending that image and receiving those inputs from 1 client at a time even if multiple clients are connected
| |
| 07:24 | <alkisg> Ah, if you only want a single client, then that could be doable
| |
| 07:24 | What are the client specs? cpu/ram/graphics card?
| |
| 07:25 | <ccat> alkisg: basically its a remote desktop -- but cant tell if any of the remote-desktop projects can send graphics_CARD picture as opposed to normal internal-gpu image
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| 07:26 | <alkisg> Does this "remote desktop" support 3d?
| |
| 07:26 | Because if it doesn't, you can't use some of the available solutions
| |
| 07:27 | <ccat> alkisg: ideally it would be a cheap client, as it is basically a visual terminal --- so ideally it does no processing but for visual i/o -- so it should not need 3d anything
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| 07:28 | <alkisg> Sending 3d commands on the client to render them makes the server use less network bandwidth, so it might strain the server and the client and the network less
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| 07:29 | Anyways... from what you've said so far, I'd look at http://www.virtualgl.org/About/Introduction
| |
| 07:30 | <ccat> alkisg: well, just thought, if you can make a screen-shot of a video-card image, then you can send said screenshots as fast as they can be made --- so it Should be feasible even if it is not yet available
| |
| 07:30 | <alkisg> You could use that over ltsp, or not... the "where to boot from" part is more standard
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| 07:30 | ccat: just try to find one program to record your desktop on linux. You'll be very dissapointed :)
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| 07:31 | Making a video stream out of a video card stream is not as easy as it sounds
| |
| 07:31 | <ccat> alkisg: y, v-gl might be nice but don't know if faster to send image on slow conn, or compute image on slow pc
| |
| 07:31 | <alkisg> You want 3d over the network *and* a slow network?
| |
| 07:32 | ...you'd better change your requirements :)
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| 07:32 | <vagrantc> 1 + 2 + 3 = 100
| |
| 07:33 | don't let reality constrain your dreams, but don't let your dreams stop you from implementing something real.
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| 07:33 | <ccat> alkisg: well, meant "slow" sending as opposed "fast" local generation on server
| |
| 07:34 | <alkisg> ccat: compressing 2 gbps is not fast. Sending a few 3d rendering commands is.
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| 07:34 | !flash
| |
| 07:34 | <ltsp`> flash: Yes, flash sucks. An HD full screen 30 fps video needs 2.5 Gbps bandwidth (1920×1080×4×30)! Make sure you have LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file, or if it's just youtube you're after, try some flash replacing plugin like http://linterna-magica.nongnu.org
| |
| 07:34 | <alkisg> ...2.5 gbps... :)
| |
| 07:35 | <vagrantc> so you just need 10GB network cards in all the clients, no problem.
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| 07:35 | <alkisg> And a 50-core cpu...
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| 07:36 | <vagrantc> well, you could get by with 25 dual-core CPUs
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| 07:36 | <ccat> alkisg: what is the x4 there
| |
| 07:37 | <alkisg> 32 bits per pixel = 4 bytes
| |
| 07:37 | * vagrantc wonders if theprof ever got the issue figured out | |
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| 07:37 | <alkisg> It's badly written, it should say 32 instead of 4, since it calculates bps and not Bps
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| 07:37 | <ccat> vagrantc: so you are saying a laptop just the size of a small refrigerator? and connected to one as well? :)
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| 07:38 | <ccat> alkisg: y, but you are computing bits/s, not bytes/s
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| 07:39 | vagrantc: not yet -- tbc
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| 07:39 | <alkisg> Yes that's what I said in my previous line above ^
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| 07:39 | <ccat> alkisg: oh, sorry, things get lost while replying :)
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| 07:41 | <vagrantc> alkisg: hope to get 5.5.1 out tomorrow or maybe the next day for real this time
| |
| 07:41 | <alkisg> vagrantc: cool, I think it'll be a nice stable long-lasting version
| |
| 07:41 | ...until the next release 1 week after that :P
| |
| 07:41 | <vagrantc> heh
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| 07:43 | * vagrantc waves | |
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| 07:44 | <ccat> alkisg: if you can watch live streaming ok-quality video over a 2Mbs conn, then why can't you send screenshots that fast?
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| 07:44 | <alkisg> Because decompressing is very easier than compressing
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| 07:44 | And screen playback very easier than screen grabbing
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| 07:45 | <ccat> alkisg: hmmmmmmmmm
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| 07:53 | <alkisg> ccat: how many clients are you going to deploy?
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| 07:56 | <ccat> alkisg: don't know how many, but only 1 at a time needing any server support regardless of how many "logged in"
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| 08:01 | <ccat> alkisg: basically just as if 1 client
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| 08:02 | <alkisg> Then buy a good client instead of a good server
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| 08:04 | <ccat> alkisg: how good IS good here?
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| 08:05 | <alkisg> Try to run blender locally and check for yourself :)
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| 08:05 | <ccat> --- and what is it doing with that power
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| 08:05 | hmmmm
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| 08:11 | alkisg:still, a powerful enough server (but how powerful??) can compress "fast" so why would it not be like sending the client a video stream? Those little wireless pan-tilt cameras send 30fps video
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| 08:22 | <ccat> alkisg: sorry, trying to plan the system Before buying anything that could pass the real tests -- hard to do
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| 08:22 | <alkisg> ccat: sure, that's why I asked you about how many clients, to help you in planning
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| 08:22 | I.e. if it would be best to buy good clients or good server
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| 08:23 | The cameras compress video because they have hardware chips that do that
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| 08:23 | CPUs aren't optimized for that. You need a dual core cpu to compress a single video, and not an HD one
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| 08:24 | <ccat> alkisg: too bad can't point camera at screen and run camera app on client !
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| 08:30 | <alkisg> Yes... zero clients try to do that, more or less, but they too still have problems
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| 08:40 | <ccat> alkisg: is "zero client" same as "kvm extender" ?
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| 08:42 | <alkisg> No
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| 08:47 | FGXR6 is now known as F-GT | |
| 08:48 | <ccat> alkisg: maybe... same as kvm-extender over network?
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| 08:53 | <cyberorg> alkisg, hi, got a question, how is nbd swap handled now? earlier we had xinetd create one on the fly for the client
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| 08:53 | <alkisg> cyberorg: nbd-server runs standalone now, not from inetd,
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| 08:53 | so we have a prep script that creates it on the fly
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| 08:53 | nbdswapd...
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| 08:54 | /etc/nbd-server/conf.d/swap.conf => prerun = nbdswapd %s
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| 08:54 | ltsp-config nbd-server should create the swap.conf too
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| 08:54 | <cyberorg> alkisg, ok, thanks :)
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| 08:55 | <alkisg> np
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| 08:55 | !learn alkisg-todo as implement ltsp-config aoe
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| 08:55 | <ltsp`> The operation succeeded.
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| 21:06 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: can you test https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/1040638 with a newer ltspfs, e.g. the one in greek schools ppa, or the one in 14.04?
| |
| 21:07 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, not sure how exactly
| |
| 21:07 | I don't run 14.04, nor Greek schools ppa I think.
| |
| 21:07 | Nor do I have any USB drives.
| |
| 21:08 | <alkisg> You no longer have the WD disk you reported?
| |
| 21:08 | <Hyperbyte> Wow.
| |
| 21:08 | I reported that?
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| 21:08 | <alkisg> Yup, that's why I pinged you... :)
| |
| 21:08 | <Hyperbyte> Hah, I did.
| |
| 21:08 | I think that must've been a colleagues drive.
| |
| 21:09 | Honestly I don't know what to say.
| |
| 21:10 | This was nearly two years ago... I had just started experimenting with LTSP.
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| 21:10 | <Hyperbyte> Well, not really
| |
| 21:10 | But I don't know what else to tell you about this.
| |
| 21:10 | <alkisg> OK, np, I just thought I'd help there but if you no longer have the drive you don't need the fix either :)
| |
| 21:11 | <Hyperbyte> Well, there were a lot of problems back then I think.
| |
| 21:11 | USB DVD drives didn't work, I think you or vagrant gave me some custom "cdpinger" to remedy that
| |
| 21:11 | Maybe that also solved the WD problem, not sure.
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| 21:18 | <gbaman> what is the best way to manage users?
| |
| 21:19 | mainly best graphical client to manage them and more importantly, how can I let users change their passwords?
| |
| 21:24 | <alkisg> Fat clients or thin clients?
| |
| 21:24 | gbaman: ^
| |
| 21:25 | <gbaman> fat
| |
| 21:25 | Raspberry Pis
| |
| 21:25 | which were tested for the first time in a classroom today with 7 :)
| |
| 21:25 | I have a very happy teacher
| |
| 21:25 | but he was curious how he can handle users
| |
| 21:25 | <alkisg> You need to run the password changing UI as an ltsp-remoteapp
| |
| 21:26 | * vagrantc has been experimenting with u-boot on raspberry pi | |
| 21:26 | <vagrantc> should make for much easier network booting
| |
| 21:26 | <alkisg> There are several GUIs for managing users. Here in Greece we didn't like any of them and we developed our own solution :D We hope to internationalize it in the future...
| |
| 21:26 | <vagrantc> then the SD card just needs the RPI firmware and u-boot
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| 21:27 | <gbaman> The sd card currently uses the solution you came up with earlier vagrantc, having the kernel on the sd card
| |
| 21:27 | so it isnt available in english alkisg?
| |
| 21:27 | * alkisg hopes kexec will be very stable in the future so that we could use any old local kernel just for setting up networking + downloading the initramfs... | |
| 21:27 | <alkisg> gbaman: no, it isn't
| |
| 21:28 | <vagrantc> working towards only having u-boot on the SD card, so that you can download the latest kernel off the network just like the rest of the OS
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| 21:28 | <gbaman> hmm, would be nice vagrantc
| |
| 21:28 | we are due to run another test tomorrow with 15 pis with 15 kids
| |
| 21:28 | only thing we havent be able to get working yet is Minecraft Pi edition, some weird issue with vchiq
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| 21:28 | <alkisg> gbaman: and the teacher was happy with the PI's performance?
| |
| 21:29 | <gbaman> yes
| |
| 21:29 | <alkisg> Nice!
| |
| 21:29 | <gbaman> his comment was it wasnt any noticeably slower than sd card booting
| |
| 21:29 | the entire network he is using is 10/100mbit
| |
| 21:30 | so tomorrow with 15 pis will be the big test
| |
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| 21:30 | <gbaman> Then I am down to give a talk on this at the Raspberry Jamboree on Friday in front of 200-300 people, large chunk of them teachers
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| 21:31 | <gbaman> Talk will also be recorded
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| 21:32 | <alkisg> Heh, netbooting via u-boot sounds easy, it obviously contains the most common drivers needed... http://kernelnomicon.org/?p=327
| |
| 21:32 | <vagrantc> i always thought i was tolerant of slow computes, but found the rpi to be fairly un-useable
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| 21:32 | gbaman: what magic did you work?! :)
| |
| 21:32 | <gbaman> overclocking!
| |
| 21:32 | :)
| |
| 21:32 | na, pis nicely run idle, libre writer etc
| |
| 21:32 | <alkisg> And on a 10/100 network? Probably Job's patience pills...
| |
| 21:33 | <gbaman> well alkisg, thats the bit I really dont understand..
| |
| 21:33 | I though am not in the room, skyping him as he is miles away
| |
| 21:33 | so can not verify it myself
| |
| 21:33 | but he was happy
| |
| 21:33 | so I am happy :)
| |
| 21:34 | <alkisg> Maybe he had other reasons... from the previous night... to be happy... :P
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| 21:34 | <gbaman> sigh
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| 21:34 | <alkisg> Libreoffice reads 120 MB the first time it's loaded
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| 21:34 | <alkisg> For 15 clients loading it simultaneously on a 100 mbps network, that's a lot more than 1 minute
| |
| 21:35 | Students don't have that much patience...
| |
| 21:36 | <gbaman> Hopefully, he is getting a gigabit switch in next week for more testing
| |
| 21:36 | but we are stuck with 100mbit for now
| |
| 21:36 | it will be interesting to see anyway
| |
| 21:36 | and of course, in real world, students dont all open it at the same time
| |
| 21:36 | in our tests, they did
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| 21:37 | <alkisg> In the real world the teachers says "double click on exercise.odt", or "type that in libreoffice", so they do open it simultaneously very frequently
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| 21:38 | <gbaman> true
| |
| 21:38 | * vagrantc waves to sbalneav1 | |
| 21:38 | * vagrantc waves to sbalneav | |
| 21:38 | <gbaman> i was asked again by his network manager, can we not just use wifi..
| |
| 21:38 | <alkisg> If it needs e.g. 1 minute to load, it doesn't have to be exactly simultaneously, you can launch it 30 seconds apart and still have delay issues
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| 21:39 | <vagrantc> wifi == terrible performance
| |
| 21:39 | <gbaman> thats what i told him
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| 21:39 | so basically said no :)
| |
| 21:40 | Was funny, when the pis booted, I could see them but they couldnt see me, as I watched as his network manager came in and informed the teacher they must be thin clients and there was no way fat clients could possibly boot that fast
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| 21:41 | or be that response on that network
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| 21:41 | <vagrantc> huh
| |
| 21:42 | <gbaman> *reponsive
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| 21:42 | <vagrantc> i guess i've only tested on a pi with 256MB of ram... that extra 512M probably makes a big difference then
| |
| 21:42 | <gbaman> yes, these were all 512mb pis
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| 21:42 | model B rev 2
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| 21:42 | <vagrantc> i think i have model b rev 1
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| 21:43 | <gbaman> Is interesting, they make a lot of changes to the OS for the official foundation sd images
| |
| 21:43 | which I have had to replicate in my script
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| 21:44 | * vagrantc never booted an r6pi foundation image | |
| 21:44 | <gbaman> well that will explain it
| |
| 21:44 | * vagrantc wonders if they ever released the source code | |
| 21:44 | <gbaman> their images have got faster and faster as they optimise it
| |
| 21:45 | am guessing you had initially used the soft float debian version?
| |
| 21:45 | <vagrantc> just raspbian
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| 21:45 | <gbaman> ah ok
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| 21:45 | <vagrantc> which is what the rpi foundation uses
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| 21:45 | <alkisg> http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/pcs/2012/04/16/raspberry-pi-review/4
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| 21:45 | A dual core CPU is more than 100 times faster than pi... :P
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| 21:45 | <gbaman> raspbian uses hardfloat
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| 21:45 | <gbaman> that was a while ago :D
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| 21:46 | but yes
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| 21:46 | still likely
| |
| 21:46 | but for £28?
| |
| 21:46 | and one can run the pi up to 1000MHz
| |
| 21:47 | as i do for all my pis
| |
| 21:47 | the images built by my script are only clocked at 800MHz
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| 21:47 | <alkisg> The default is 700?
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| 21:48 | <gbaman> yes
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| 21:48 | <alkisg> OK so then only 87,5 times faster than pi...
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| 21:48 | <gbaman> one can easily overclock it up to 1GHz, is even built into the setup whiptail script, an option to do so
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| 21:48 | :)
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| 21:49 | <vagrantc> the MHz comparisons are not really meaningful
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| 21:49 | <||cw> doyou need to add a heat sink to do that?
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| 21:49 | <alkisg> My 386 CPU from 1991 should have about the same speed :P
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| 21:49 | <gbaman> what they have done though is optimise the OS and software that runs on it
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| 21:49 | <alkisg> I think they used some benchmark program in that page above ^
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| 21:49 | <||cw> also, compare speed to watts ratio
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| 21:50 | <||cw> or get complicated an add speed to watts to cost
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| 21:50 | <gbaman> too much maths...
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| 21:50 | again though, arguing does not really matter, schools are already getting them
| |
| 21:50 | <||cw> though you can get a P4 with speedstep that's not a lot of power and like $50 and very good performance as a thin client
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| 21:50 | <alkisg> If it's too slow and can't be used in classrooms, the watts don't matter at all for this use case
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| 21:51 | <vagrantc> it's only recent intel procs where they start comparing to the computer power per watt
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| 21:52 | <gbaman> they just gave away 5000 to schools in the UK, 100 schools got 20 pis each
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| 21:52 | so there is 100 schools with pis
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| 21:52 | who will want to make good use of them
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| 21:52 | * vagrantc wonders how the math on that works | |
| 21:52 | <gbaman> and thin client is already ruled out
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| 21:52 | first 100 got 20 pis
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| 21:52 | <gbaman> rest got 5 pis each
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| 21:52 | <vagrantc> ah
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| 21:53 | <gbaman> they werent expecting 750 schools to ask for pis..
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| 21:53 | thin clients are ruled out as kids need access to GPIO pins
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| 21:53 | to do hardware hacking
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| 21:54 | <vagrantc> do you give them root?
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| 21:54 | <gbaman> By default, the foundation images ship with default user (pi) in sudoers file
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| 21:54 | without need to enter password
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| 21:54 | <vagrantc> yes, but with your ltsp setup
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| 21:54 | <gbaman> currently, no
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| 21:55 | as my trial school isnt using GPIO pins yes
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| 21:55 | *yet
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| 21:55 | but am leaning towards yes
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| 21:55 | <alkisg> (11:53:35 μμ) gbaman: thin clients are ruled out as kids need access to GPIO pins => I bet you could easily provide access to those with localapps or with socat...
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| 21:55 | <gbaman> but having an option for it
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| 21:56 | <vagrantc> i also noticed that the rpi even gives non-root users access to write to the SD card
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| 21:56 | at least with LTSP, localdevs kick in and whee!
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| 21:56 | <gbaman> also applications like minecraft pi only run on the pi
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| 21:56 | as they do something weird with the GPU
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| 21:57 | <vagrantc> i guess my setup also didn't use GPU acceleration
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| 21:57 | <gbaman> The raspberry pi is nightmare for security, but that wasnt its point
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| 21:57 | <vagrantc> so if you get that working, you'd probably get a big performance boost
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| 21:58 | <gbaman> it wasnt and isnt meant to be a impregnable fortress
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| 21:58 | was designed to give kids an opportunity to play with linux
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| 21:58 | <vagrantc> sure, but it's also an easy oversight
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| 21:58 | if you start using thin clients for testing purposes or whatever ...
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| 21:58 | <gbaman> vagrantc: a lot of stuff on the pi is now hardware accelerated
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| 21:58 | <vagrantc> gbaman: what else is there?
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| 21:58 | <gbaman> true
| |
| 21:58 | ?
| |
| 21:59 | what else what?
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| 21:59 | <vagrantc> gbaman: what else other than the GPU is hardware accelerated
| |
| 21:59 | <gbaman> I am meaning software running on the pi now makes a lot more use of the GPU directly
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| 22:00 | <vagrantc> got it
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| 22:00 | <gbaman> things like minecraft pi
| |
| 22:00 | they are also working on some alternative to X (I think?) which makes much heavier use of the GPU
| |
| 22:00 | <vagrantc> hard to imagine that working well... is it also more limited in scope?
| |
| 22:00 | <gbaman> have forgotten its name now..
| |
| 22:02 | weston?
| |
| 22:02 | weston/wayland!
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| 22:02 | and a gpu accelerated web browser
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| 22:03 | cant remember if that is included now by default..
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| 22:03 | lee___ is now known as lee | |
| 22:04 | <gbaman> anyways, it is very usable, especially with killer apps like sonic pi, minecraft pi etc
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| 22:04 | mathematica is now available on pi
| |
| 22:04 | and oracle have a custom version of java for the pi now
| |
| 22:05 | anyways, that still hasnt solved my issues with user management!
| |
| 22:06 | vagrantc: how can kids change their password?
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| 22:09 | <vagrantc> gbaman: in what context?
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| 22:09 | <gbaman> with fat clients
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| 22:09 | Need a way that they can change their own passwords?
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| 22:09 | <vagrantc> ssh server passwd
| |
| 22:09 | <gbaman> ...
| |
| 22:09 | <vagrantc> could also make it a localapp
| |
| 22:09 | <gbaman> and how does one do that?
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| 22:10 | <vagrantc> er, not localapp, remoteapp
| |
| 22:10 | <gbaman> all the kids will have a default password and when they log on, will be told to change it
| |
| 22:10 | <vagrantc> probably some gui tool on the server you could run as a remoteapp
| |
| 22:10 | * gbaman wants the greek user management software now... | |
| 22:10 | <gbaman> :(
| |
| 22:10 | <vagrantc> hrm. remoteapps are poorly documented
| |
| 22:11 | not even in lts.conf
| |
| 22:11 | <gbaman> i know!
| |
| 22:11 | most of LTSP is poorly documented!
| |
| 22:11 | thats why I am on here so much!
| |
| 22:11 | :)
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| 22:12 | <vagrantc> gbaman: seems like you know enough to start contributing to improving it, though! :P
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| 22:12 | i've only done some basic remoteapps testing
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| 22:12 | <gbaman> I really should get round to helping out
| |
| 22:12 | maybe when this pi LTSP thing is done...
| |
| 22:12 | if it is ever done..
| |
| 22:13 | <vagrantc> nothing is ever truely done, it just reaches certain points
| |
| 22:13 | <gbaman> also, the other question I meant to ask vagrantc, one from the teacher
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| 22:13 | we are keeping the local sd card images on the sd cards
| |
| 22:13 | so the kids can in theory take them home
| |
| 22:14 | but need some way they can easily swap the 2 config files on the boot partition
| |
| 22:14 | that control whether it boots via LTSP or locally
| |
| 22:14 | need some way to let them switch, hopefully without another computer...
| |
| 22:15 | is there some way we could run a script early on, before it starts waiting for an OS from the server?
| |
| 22:15 | <vagrantc> the SD cards have a complete OS on them?
| |
| 22:15 | <gbaman> yes
| |
| 22:15 | well, a completely different one from the server
| |
| 22:15 | but yes
| |
| 22:15 | <vagrantc> hrm.
| |
| 22:15 | <gbaman> best thing would be if they hold down a key for example when it boots?
| |
| 22:15 | it switches?
| |
| 22:16 | <vagrantc> if you had a real bootloader on there, maybe
| |
| 22:16 | <gbaman> :)
| |
| 22:16 | <vagrantc> you could run a hook from the initramfs that swaps the files around and then reboots
| |
| 22:16 | <gbaman> if a key is being held down?
| |
| 22:17 | <vagrantc> it would require writing it
| |
| 22:17 | <gbaman> ..
| |
| 22:17 | <vagrantc> i.e. no such software exists that i'm aware of out-of-the box
| |
| 22:17 | <gbaman> :(
| |
| 22:18 | how far along is your bootloader idea?
| |
| 22:18 | <vagrantc> i envisioned a timeout that waits say 5 seconds and just boots as normal if you don't change anything
| |
| 22:18 | <gbaman> well that is also a possibility
| |
| 22:19 | <vagrantc> u-boot mainline works, but doesn't have usb (and thus network) support yet
| |
| 22:19 | <gbaman> ahh
| |
| 22:19 | :(
| |
| 22:19 | <vagrantc> there appear to be patches on the maintainer's branch of u-boot
| |
| 22:19 | <gbaman> https://github.com/gonzoua/u-boot-pi ?
| |
| 22:19 | <vagrantc> also, i had a number of weird problems with the booted OS ... u-boot may not be initializing the hardware quite right
| |
| 22:20 | https://github.com/swarren/u-boot
| |
| 22:20 | swarren is listed as the maintainer of the rpi board in u-boot mainline
| |
| 22:21 | i was thinking of giving a try to swarren's branch sometime after getting ltsp 5.5.1 uploaded
| |
| 22:21 | so maybe later this week
| |
| 22:21 | <gbaman> whats new in 5.5.1?
| |
| 22:21 | <vagrantc> just a few bugfixes
| |
| 22:21 | nothing too exciting
| |
| 22:22 | <gbaman> is there a gui ever coming?
| |
| 22:22 | <vagrantc> there are GUIs all over the place
| |
| 22:23 | we're hoping to get rid of the only GUI that's LTSP-specific for LTSP6 ... i.e. LDM
| |
| 22:23 | <gbaman> not seen many updated any time recently
| |
| 22:24 | wait, but...
| |
| 22:24 | LDM...
| |
| 22:24 | <vagrantc> that's a GUI
| |
| 22:24 | <gbaman> it is useful!
| |
| 22:24 | <vagrantc> for LTSP6, people will have to learn the commandline.
| |
| 22:25 | <gbaman> wait, so you want people to login using commandline?
| |
| 22:25 | whats wrong with LDM?
| |
| 22:25 | * vagrantc is trolling | |
| 22:25 | <vagrantc> gbaman: what's wrong with LDM is it doesn't sanely support logins, which is it's one purpose. it's got some serious design flaws.
| |
| 22:25 | <gbaman> well yes, did notice that
| |
| 22:26 | it lets you log in, and that is about it
| |
| 22:26 | no ability to force a user to change passwords!
| |
| 22:26 | <vagrantc> so we're going to work on hooking into existing more well-established DMs ... i.e. lightdm, GDM, KDM, etc.
| |
| 22:26 | <gbaman> that can force the user to change their password?
| |
| 22:27 | <vagrantc> that's one of the main goals, yes.
| |
| 22:27 | <gbaman> :)
| |
| 22:27 | timescale?
| |
| 22:27 | <vagrantc> basically we've got a pam plugin that the DM authenticates against
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| 22:28 | proof of concept already exists... was really hoping to have it ready for Debian's next release, but haven't had the time to drive it through
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| 22:28 | i.e. i'd like to have it reasonably ready by end of July or so...
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| 22:28 | but that might be overly optimistic
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| 22:29 | <gbaman> whens jessie freeze?
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| 22:30 | <vagrantc> "Reminder: we will freeze Jessie on Wednesday, 5th November, 2014."
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| 22:30 | <gbaman> ah
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| 22:30 | thats quite some time away
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| 22:30 | <vagrantc> so i want it "ready" by end of july, so we can polish it up for a few months before the freeze
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| 22:30 | <gbaman> ah
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| 22:31 | <vagrantc> otherwise, it'll have to wait for jessie+1
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| 22:31 | but i haven't managed to get that rolling
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| 22:32 | <gbaman> ohh, just found "LTSPManager"
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| 22:32 | which hasnt been touched since 2007
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| 22:32 | <vagrantc> gbaman: hopefully you don't make the mistake of running it on anything you want to work
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| 22:32 | <gbaman> so you recommending I stay away from it vagrantc?
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| 22:34 | <vagrantc> i guess it's only 7 years out of date, what could possibly go wrong. :P
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| 22:34 | is that ogra's project?
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| 22:34 | <gbaman> yes
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| 22:36 | anyways, bbl
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| 23:16 | <Gbaman_> another question vagrantc from this teacher, shared folders?
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| 23:16 | best way to do that?
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| 23:17 | <vagrantc> for fatclients ... hrm.
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| 23:17 | <Gbaman_> he wants a shared read only (for students) network drive basically
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| 23:18 | <vagrantc> should be able to mount it using FSTAB_XX or something
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| 23:18 | * Gbaman_ reminds vagrantc that gbaman is new to a lot of this | |
| 23:20 | <Gbaman_> was just reading through the greek schools wiki (via google translate)... i want sch-scripts..
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| 23:21 | in english..
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| 23:23 | <Gbaman_> it is the little things like that
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| 23:23 | that arent documented anywhere
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| 23:23 | <vagrantc> it's documented in lts.conf
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| 23:23 | for FSTAB stuff
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| 23:23 | <Gbaman_> that and passwords for example
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| 23:23 | or ways to manage users
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| 23:24 | and remoteapps :D
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| 23:24 | <vagrantc> managing users is not LTSP specific
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| 23:25 | allthough passwords are a little weird with fatclients
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| 23:25 | <Gbaman_> which is understandable
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| 23:25 | the entire thing about fat clients is weird! i dont think all the kids in that testing class today fully understand what was going on
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| 23:26 | <vagrantc> one of the goals of LTSP is that the users don't notice any difference from a "normal" computer
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| 23:26 | still have a ways to go with that
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| 23:26 | <Gbaman_> true, but it is a good start
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| 23:27 | i am running LTSP fat clients on an old computer room in my own school and it works perfectly
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| 23:27 | not pis
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| 23:27 | <vagrantc> glad to hear it
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| 23:28 | <Gbaman_> normal computers
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| 23:28 | all running nicely off an old mac mini
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| 23:28 | solely to run arduino ide
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| 23:28 | as the machines themselves run xp and have some weird group policy stuff
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| 23:29 | so arduino was a fat no
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| 23:29 | but it works seamlessly
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| 23:29 | and was surprisingly easy to set up for one with the pnp guide
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| 23:29 | *once
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| 23:30 | is the 30+ kids first ever use of linux, has gone down well
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| 23:30 | <vagrantc> yeah, ltsp-pnp stuff is probably the best innovation i've seen in ltsp since ltsp5
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| 23:31 | <Gbaman_> well, until a kid somehow decided it would be a good idea to turn off his friends computer, hit the wrong plug and turned the server off..
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| 23:31 | and all machines froze
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| 23:31 | <vagrantc> right
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| 23:32 | generally good to keep those machines out of reach
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| 23:32 | <Gbaman_> :)
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| 23:32 | have learnt that now
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| 23:33 | it was out of reach, just the plug for the extension cable wasnt :)
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| 23:33 | <vagrantc> heh
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| 23:34 | <Gbaman_> have moved it all anyway now
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| 23:34 | kids seemed to pick up ubuntu quite quickly which is good
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| 23:35 | btw, is there an easy way currently to push files out to every user account?
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| 23:38 | as the teacher has suggested shared drive + ability for him to drop files into all the kids folders
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| 23:39 | am thinking might just write a script to iterate through folders in /home?
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