IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 13 October 2011 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:25 | <Levende> Hello
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| 01:28 | I just finished configuring my own diskless fat-client-like setup, without the use of LTSP... I used tftpd, nfs and dhcp under Gentoo, and installed xorg-server to the isolated root FS with portages --root feature. I'm curious: reading the tutorial for LTSP under Debian, they use openbsd-inetd, along with TFTPd what's the advantage of doing this rather than simply using tftp without the inetd
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| 02:04 | <mgariepy> Levende, it does scable much more with inetd instead of the tftp deamon
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| 13:07 | <Ghidorah> Does anyone know how to troubleshoot this is issue? On the thin clients I have syslog_host setup. The proper server IP is being supplied by LTSP-Cluster. Everything appears be configured correctly. Sadly, no data is sent to the syslog server unless I manually restart the rsyslogd service on the thin client.
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| 14:49 | <dobber> have anyone updated ubuntu 10.04 to 11.10 successfully ?
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| 14:51 | ltsp-server 5.2.1-0ubuntu9
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| 14:54 | what is the current version
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| 14:55 | <Hyperbyte> Answering that question would require global telepathy...
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| 14:56 | At least on my part. =)
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| 14:56 | What exactly do you want to know?
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| 14:57 | <dobber> yeah, i have about 10 clients and i'm afraid to upgrade :)
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| 14:57 | if there are major updates in ltsp
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| 14:57 | <stgraber> 10.04 to 11.10 is not supported anyway
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| 14:57 | <dobber> thinks that worked one way in 5.2 and are different now ...
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| 14:57 | <stgraber> you'd need to upgrade to 10.10, then 11.04 and finally 11.10
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| 14:58 | <dobber> yeah
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| 14:58 | <stgraber> and then rebuild the chroot from scratch as we don't support chroot upgrades
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| 14:58 | <dobber> if i dont upgrade chroot will it still run ?
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| 15:00 | <stgraber> no
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| 15:00 | <dobber> well i guess in order to run the new gtk desktop i need new chroot
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| 15:00 | ok i see
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| 15:00 | <stgraber> you can use a 11.04 chroot with < 11.04
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| 15:00 | but you can't use a < 11.04 chroot on 11.04
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| 15:00 | because of a change in nbd-server requiring some pretty big changes in the chroot
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| 15:01 | <dobber> so i can install 11.10 somewhere, setup ltsp chroot, test it , then upgrade the production server and copy the chroot
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| 15:01 | <stgraber> yep, doing that + the usual ltsp-update-image + ltsp-update-kernels should work
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| 15:02 | <dobber> thanks stgraber
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| 15:02 | that's what i wanted to know
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| 15:02 | what is the new thing in nbd-server ?
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| 15:03 | <stgraber> it uses a different "official" port number and the new name based exports instead of using one port per chroot
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| 15:03 | <dobber> is 5.2.16 the latest ltsp ?
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| 15:04 | !version
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| 15:04 | <ltsp> dobber: The current (running) version of this Supybot is 0.83.4.1+gribble (2011-06-27T14:41:49-0400). The newest version available in the gribble git repository is 0.83.4.1+gribble (2011-08-12T18:12:56-0400).
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| 15:04 | <dobber> oops
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| 15:04 | <stgraber> 5.2.18 is technically the latest one
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| 15:05 | 5.2.16 was the most recent LTSP at FeatureFreeze time
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| 15:09 | <dobber> thanks again
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| 15:10 | <stgraber> np
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| 15:10 | <dobber> i'll poll the bosses and see if i can do it with the least downtime
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| 15:31 | <ball> hello VectorX
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| 15:31 | <VectorX> hi
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| 15:32 | <ball> VectorX: First off, perhaps you could outline for us what you mean by "multi-seat"
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| 15:33 | (just to make sure we're thinking of the same kind of things)
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| 15:34 | <VectorX> basically one box, then you plug in mouse's/keyboards, monitors to the box directly so that more than one user can be on the same machine but with different user accounts, http://www.linuxtoys.org/multiubuntu/multiubuntu.html sort of thing
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| 15:36 | i was also considering LTSP but to me it seems you need another machine for the user which doesnt need stuff like a hdd mainly
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| 15:36 | <alkisg> VectorX: unfortunately multiseat is unstable and not well supported
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| 15:37 | <VectorX> ic
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| 15:37 | so my ploy to cut costs is foild
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| 15:37 | <alkisg> lightdm plans to support multiseat better, new x releases plan the same, wayland plans the same... all plans
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| 15:37 | <ball> VectorX: You don't need another computer for each user, just a graphical terminal ("thin client")
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| 15:38 | <alkisg> I tried it once and did make it work. It was a pain to setup and it crashed frequently.
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| 15:38 | <VectorX> foiled rather
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| 15:38 | <ball> Each user's mouse, keyboard and monitor plugs into that.
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| 15:38 | ...and then you have a small LAN connecting them to the host that's running the applications and the desktops &c.
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| 15:38 | <alkisg> VectorX: refurbished pcs are cheaper than the graphics card that multiseat needs
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| 15:38 | <VectorX> hehe
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| 15:39 | <ball> Would an Asus Eeebox make a passable graphical terminal?
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| 15:39 | <VectorX> ball, this is for coding and 2d graphics work
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| 15:39 | <ball> VectorX: There you go then.
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| 15:40 | VectorX: How large are the 2D documents though?
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| 15:40 | <alkisg> You'd need fat clients then, so you basically save the hard disks + you can maintain them easier with ltsp
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| 15:40 | <VectorX> ball just webwork, so banners etc
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| 15:40 | <ball> If they're huge you might want to consider separate workstations or "fat clients" as people here seem to call them.
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| 15:40 | VectorX: Oh yeah, for low-res stuff you should be able to run that on a virtual desktop
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| 15:41 | <VectorX> seriously somebody came up with a term called fat client
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| 15:42 | <alkisg> Unfortunately wikipedia's definition of fat clients does not match the ltsp definition... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_client
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| 15:43 | <VectorX> is there a place i can find some case studies on this, ie what ltsp approches were used to create a solution
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| 15:43 | <ball> VectorX: Back in the day we used to call them diskless workstations.
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| 15:44 | <VectorX> ball yeah that was what i was refering to earlier when i asked if that would be booting via nic
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| 15:44 | <ball> VectorX: ...the difference is that with a "thin client" (graphical terminal) all the work's done on the host. With "fat clients" (diskless workstations) the work is done locally, in front of the user.
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| 15:45 | VectorX: Right, but it's possible to use a graphical terminal without booting it from a LAN
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| 15:45 | VectorX: less common these days, but still possible.
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| 15:45 | <VectorX> ic
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| 15:45 | <ball> Come to think of it, the thin clients I use at work boot from local storage.
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| 15:46 | I'm open minded about that, but I can see the attraction of netbooting them.
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| 15:49 | <VectorX> ill try reading up on this again
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| 15:52 | <ball> VectorX: ...but based on what you've told us, I think you need some sort of graphical terminal ("thin client"). ltsp is an obvious choice because a) it's proven and b) you mentioned that the host would be running Linux.
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| 15:52 | ...and c) it doesn't tie you to any one hardware vendor.
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| 15:52 | <VectorX> yes 90% chance of being ubuntu
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| 15:53 | <ball> ...and d) the people here are nice.
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| 15:54 | <VectorX> im not really seeing how d) is related to anything
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| 15:54 | in terms of my requirment
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| 15:56 | <alkisg> You'll see if you ever need hit a problem and are in need of support :)
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| 15:56 | <VectorX> ah ok, thanks for pointing that out
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| 15:58 | so is the term "virtual desktop" a general way of refering to any client connected to the server ? or is it used in specific setups
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| 16:02 | <ball> VectorX: I use it to mean a desktop that is running without a physical screen necessarily attached. My desktop typically runs on a computer that has no monitor attached and that may be in another city.
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| 16:02 | It doesn't require any thought for me, it just works. I'm just using my desktop.
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| 16:03 | <VectorX> yup
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| 16:03 | <ball> ...but that desktop gets to follow me around, like when I go to work this afternoon.
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| 16:03 | ...or if I visit a client's site on Friday.
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| 16:03 | It's just right there, where I need it.
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| 16:04 | Your users may not need that mobility, but it's one of the potential implications of running with thin clients.
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| 16:07 | <Ghidorah> Does anyone know what might cause [ldm] WARNING: waitid returned an error: Interrupted system call
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| 16:07 | and then the terminal freezes on logout
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| 16:15 | <garymc> YO hows everyone, aint been in for a week or two
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| 16:16 | I also have one issue that is griping me with our LTSP server. All FAT clients keep losing internet connection
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| 16:16 | the browsers keep failing, when it happens all clients fail in loading a web page?
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| 16:17 | at the same time (dont know why i put ? in last comment)
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| 16:17 | Anyone know what could be causing this as my apple mac is on the same internet connection but that still has internet when all FAT ltsp clients fail to load the web
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| 16:17 | Our busines is dependant on the internet working
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| 16:23 | <VectorX> garymc this might answer some of the questions http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s12e06-over-logging
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| 16:36 | <ball> VectorX: That url doesn't look helpful.
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| 16:36 | <Ghidorah> does anyone know if I can manually execute ltsp-cluster-accountmanager to kill stale user logins?
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| 16:37 | <ball> garymc: Do you have other machines on the LAN that your ltsp host and Mac are connected to?
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| 16:38 | garymc: I wonder if your LTSP host is somehow falling off the Internet
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| 16:38 | <vagrantc> the internet is flat
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| 16:39 | <VectorX> its rather funny though
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| 16:40 | <garymc> ball: yes
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| 16:41 | <ball> VectorX: garymc's question sounded important enough to warrant serious consideration.
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| 16:41 | garymc: Do the other machines on that LAN have issues with internet connectivity or just the ltsp host?
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| 16:42 | <VectorX> ball yeah im sure hes being hammering at it for awhile, but only he would know how everything is setup i was just trying to get his mind off the actual problem with a similar problem so that at the end of it the answer would just come to him
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| 16:42 | * vagrantc would verify that cables and/or switches are in working order | |
| 16:43 | <VectorX> vagrantc see thats exactly what they do in that
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| 16:44 | <vagrantc> i didn't catch the whole story since i just dropped in ... but i've been surprised how often a bad cable finds it's way into critical infrastructure
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| 16:44 | <ball> I would look to see whether the "outside" NIC is losing carrier, losing its DHCP lease and not getting a new one or just losing its mind.
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| 16:45 | ...but a cable's quicker to eliminate ;-)
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| 16:45 | I don't know what kind of logs Linux keeps about its network connectivity
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| 16:45 | ...would it be something that shows up in the output from dmesg
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| 16:45 | ?
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| 16:45 | <VectorX> is there a tute on how to setup ltsp on vmware, i just want to play with it a bit
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| 16:46 | <ball> VectorX: I wouldn't recommend that.
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| 16:46 | <VectorX> pxe boot setup
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| 16:46 | ok
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| 16:46 | <ball> I have to go.
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| 16:47 | <VectorX> take care man
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| 16:47 | <Ghidorah> VectorX
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| 16:47 | <VectorX> Ghidorah hi
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| 16:47 | <Ghidorah> I run 3 LTSP Application servers on VMWare
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| 16:48 | <VectorX> im trying to simulate the actual ltsp server and a client connecting to it
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| 16:49 | <Ghidorah> You install LTSP the same way you would install it on real hardware.
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| 16:49 | then with you can create a terminal VM that boots off of PXE.
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| 16:50 | <VectorX> what are the steps for that last one
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| 16:50 | im on vmware workstation
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| 17:02 | <Ghidorah> Create a VM
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| 17:02 | do not add a virtual disk
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| 17:02 | only a nic
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| 17:02 | have it boot from the nic
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| 17:09 | <VectorX> its not letting me not create a disk
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| 17:59 | <alkisg> VectorX: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
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| 17:59 | Basically you create a VM with 1 nics - 1 nat and 1 internal network, you download the 10.04 ubuntu alternate cd, press f4 on syslinux menu, select "install an ltsp server" and you're done
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| 17:59 | *2 nics
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| 18:01 | <VectorX> alkisg the problem i am having is with creating the clients
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| 18:01 | <alkisg> The VM clients? Just a VM with no disk
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| 18:01 | And "boot from network" enabled
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| 18:03 | <VectorX> yeah how do you create it with no disk, its asking for a size and i cant seem to get past that screen
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| 18:03 | <alkisg> Try #vmware? I'm using vbox personally
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| 18:03 | <VectorX> hehe
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| 18:03 | <alkisg> In vbox you just select "create a disk? no"
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| 18:04 | <VectorX> ill try getting vbox aswell then, is your server running on vbox aswell ?
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| 18:06 | <alkisg> The normal servers no, but I've tried ltsp servers in vbox, both under linux and windows hosts
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| 18:06 | They work ok
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| 18:09 | <VectorX> where would i be able to find the hardware to build something like this on my own, cant seem to find it on newegg http://www.disklessworkstations.com/200122.html
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| 18:16 | <jason___> VectorX: we were testing out Asus EEE Box's for a while
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| 18:17 | Atom-based systems with 1gb RAM and HDD for like 210 bucks or so
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| 18:17 | they came with a HDD, but I just netbooted them and called it a day
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| 18:17 | in some cases we pulled the HDD's to have spare SATA drives for our natively installed rigs :P
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| 18:17 | laptops, that is, as they had 2.5" drives
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| 18:18 | <VectorX> i was thinking of going with a i7 2600k for the server, would that be ok, there wont be more than 15 users on it anyway
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| 18:19 | prob 16gb ram
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| 18:19 | <jason___> well, I'll tell you what I did in my last job
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| 18:20 | 12gb of RAM
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| 18:20 | Dual processor dual core (4 cores across 2 physical procs) 2.2ghz Intel Xeon
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| 18:20 | served a lab of 30 systems without any bog down
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| 18:20 | all served out of a single 1GB NIC
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| 18:20 | I tried to break them. I opened up every app known to man. gimp, libre office, firefox
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| 18:20 | they ran great
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| 18:21 | <VectorX> what was the hdd setup
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| 18:22 | <jason___> on the server?
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| 18:23 | the server had two 73gb drives in a raid 1
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| 18:23 | I dont think they were 10k's. they were 7.2ks I Believe
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| 18:23 | later I moved the server to a dual proc/quad core (8 core total) system with 24gb of RAM to serve 70 clients
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| 18:23 | the original 30 + 40 more
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| 18:23 | and took the 12gb RAM system out of commission
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| 18:24 | it ran great tho, but I didnt want to put 70 clients on that system. the system monitor was busy "enough" at full bore that I didnt want to just double the count
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| 18:24 | however, it ran 30 without a hitch
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| 18:24 | <VectorX> ic\
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| 18:26 | well im trying to see if i can find the parts and build the clients for like 100bux a pop
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| 18:29 | <vagrantc> jason___: did you do any lts.conf tweaks, like LDM_DIRECTX ... or did you just use the defaults?
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| 18:30 | <jason___> vagrantc: to my current attempt at my PPC setup, or the one I was talking about above?
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| 18:30 | <vagrantc> jason___: the one you were just talking about
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| 18:30 | <jason___> yes I used LDM_DIRECTX there
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| 18:30 | <vagrantc> ah.
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| 18:31 | <jason___> I forget why, but it was recommended to me.
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| 18:31 | What difference does that make?
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| 18:31 | <vagrantc> i need to upgrade the application servers, and that sounded comprable to something i was about to throw at it
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| 18:31 | jason___: with LDM_DIRECTX, most of the session is unencrypted
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| 18:31 | <jason___> vagrantc: thereby making it faster?
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| 18:31 | <vagrantc> jason___: and less load
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| 18:32 | <jason___> vagrantc: doesn't sound like something that matters in a school.
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| 18:32 | maybe in a bank setting with remote terminals, maybe...
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| 18:32 | <vagrantc> depends on if your teachers or students are using it
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| 18:32 | <jason___> students
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| 18:32 | <vagrantc> without it, it's fairly trivial to spy on the other users
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| 18:32 | <jason___> but even still, not sure how it would be a world of difference for teachers either?
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| 18:32 | <jason___> who, someone externally? or another person internally?
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| 18:32 | <vagrantc> not just spy, but actually insert events
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| 18:33 | anyone who has access to the network
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| 18:33 | <shawnp0wers> Generic Linux Question: Localapps have the fancy (on Host.name) in the titlebar when running, is that just an SSH flag to get the hostname in the titlebar?
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| 18:33 | <vagrantc> jason___: you can essentially hijack the session ...
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| 18:34 | <jason___> I see
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| 18:34 | no for our student use we used ldm_directx
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| 18:34 | <vagrantc> it's the level of exploit where i'd be torn bettween disciplining the student and admiring them ...
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| 18:35 | though there are scripts and such to hijack sessions for script-kiddie sort of things
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| 18:53 | <vagrantc> alkisg: http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/n/nbd/current/changelog#version1:2.9.24-1
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| 18:53 | <alkisg> Coooool ;)
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| 18:54 | One less config file to worry about
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| 18:54 | <vagrantc> that means we can have NBD automagically setup ... once that version propegates
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| 18:55 | of course, NFS recently added similar support
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| 20:37 | <markit> hi, anyone has done some experiment with x11vnc used to "broadcast" teacher's video to all students? Seems I've a very low frame rate, and bandwidth limited to 50Mb/s (Mbits)
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| 20:37 | but can't find the bottleneck, or the parameter that improves it
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| 20:38 | server read video board speed is very high, 400MB/s, so can't be the problem, and lan i gbit
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| 20:38 | just clients are 100Mbs
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| 20:38 | <Hyperbyte> Simple. VNC isn't made for video.
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| 20:38 | <markit> but I'm not able to troubleshoot now, since I'm not at school, just asking if has happen to you and you solved
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| 20:38 | Hyperbyte: sure, but I would be happy with 5 framse/sec, not 1 frame every 2 secs :)
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| 20:39 | <Hyperbyte> VNC is a protocol that is designed to work with desktops and windows and such.
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| 20:39 | <markit> Hyperbyte: I've the feeling I'm beyond it's "limits" a lot
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| 20:39 | <Hyperbyte> VNC just won't do full screen images very well
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| 20:39 | <markit> it's not full screen
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| 20:39 | <Hyperbyte> But, if you have one server and 50 viewers or so, I can imagine it gets pretty busy for the server.
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| 20:39 | Well images then. VNC isn't made for images.
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| 20:39 | <markit> in any case, if I move fast a window, I can see iftop reach 50Mb/s
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| 20:39 | and client have it slowly updated
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| 20:40 | I've 15 clients, not 50
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| 20:40 | <Hyperbyte> Regardless!
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| 20:40 | VNC isn't made for what you're trying to do with it.
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| 20:40 | Use something else.
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| 20:40 | Use something that supports multicast, so you can broadcast the video once onto the network, and have it received by all clients simultaneously.
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| 20:41 | <markit> x11vnc has -share option
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| 20:41 | I've all the clients connected at the same time
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| 20:41 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: markit is right though, I made some experiments a couple of years ago and it felt like there was a limit imposed by x11vnc somewhere that I couldn't pinpoint in the little time I tested.
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| 20:41 | <alkisg> While on localhost it goes much faster
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| 20:42 | It seems like x11vnc checks the link speed, and decides that it wants to limit its bandwidth to f(link speed)
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| 20:42 | <markit> Hyperbyte: I understand is not the best tool, but put that it can "theoretically" do 100, I've the feeling that is doing 10, at least on my setup/hw
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| 20:42 | <alkisg> Never trying to take a good percentage of it
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| 20:43 | <markit> also if I show a picture, then go to the next, it takes 2-3 seconds for the last client to see it
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| 20:43 | I've tested the connection with ifperf, and is ok, a lot more than 50Mbit
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| 20:43 | (2 x 1Gbit nic in bond)
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| 20:52 | <Hyperbyte> markit, multicast.
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| 20:52 | =)
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| 20:52 | <markit> Hyperbyte: with multiple switches? I've just one, is a small class with 15 pc
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| 20:52 | and as I said, there must be something that is the real bottleneck
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| 20:52 | can't be THAT show
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| 20:53 | i.e. also seems that the x11vnc works only with one core, but don't remember it exactly (did a lot of confusing tests and parameters changes)
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| 20:53 | <Hyperbyte> Multicast is the act of sending a packet onto the network once, and having it received by all clients.
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| 20:54 | <markit> Hyperbyte: if you read x11vnc "multicast" options it is a little different
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| 20:54 | do you know some parameter that can "multicast" x11vnc ?
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| 20:54 | <Hyperbyte> x11vnc can't multicast.
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| 20:54 | VLC can multicast video, for starters.
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| 20:54 | <markit> it's parameters are for the "repeater" situation
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| 20:54 | do you use x11vnc in such a situation?
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| 20:55 | <Hyperbyte> No.
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| 20:55 | <markit> oh, ok
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| 20:55 | I have a video taken in the class
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| 20:55 | <Hyperbyte> I have never ever seen x11vnc get more than a few frames per second.
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| 20:55 | <markit> so you could have compared with your usual speed
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| 20:55 | wow, ok
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| 20:55 | that's what I would love to have
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| 20:55 | <Hyperbyte> Well that's not entirely true
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| 20:56 | <markit> instead of a frame every 2-3 seconds
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| 20:56 | <Hyperbyte> I can even play games via VNC here
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| 20:56 | But only simple things.
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| 20:56 | Video (24 pictures per second) is not simple.
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| 20:56 | <markit> may I send you a video or two? they are not big
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| 20:56 | <Hyperbyte> What format?
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| 20:56 | <markit> Hyperbyte: I repeat, I would be happy with 5 fps!
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| 20:57 | well, was taken by my android phone
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| 20:57 | mp4 I guess
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| 20:57 | <Hyperbyte> Scratch that anyways
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| 20:57 | <markit> vlc plays it
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| 20:57 | <Hyperbyte> No video player on my VNC desktop
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| 20:57 | <markit> ok, maybe my english is not good enough, we don't understand each other
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| 20:58 | <Hyperbyte> Why are you so determined to use VNC, anyways?
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| 21:00 | <markit> because is what alkisg wonderful epoptes gives as option to "broadcast" teacher's screen
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| 21:00 | do you have a better/faster option?
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| 21:00 | is not for video, is to show what to do
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| 21:00 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, you're kidding me right?
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| 21:00 | <markit> just video is a good test to show my problem
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| 21:00 | <Hyperbyte> After all these months of you trying to convince me to stop using VNC for remote desktops?
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| 21:00 | * markit hides | |
| 21:01 | <markit> Hyperbyte: remote or local lan? I'm on local lan
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| 21:01 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: heh, unfortunately nx doesn't support screen sharing :)
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| 21:02 | <Hyperbyte> :(
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| 21:03 | <markit> Hyperbyte: do you have a faster solution for local sharing?
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| 21:03 | 8screen sharing)
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| 21:04 | <alkisg> VLC with gstreamer plugins for screen-reading+multicast sending is a good option, but I didn't have time to automate that yet
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| 21:16 | <markit> alkisg: sure, but when my teacher shows that she does, it's far from performing well
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| 21:16 | is acceptable, but not ideal
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| 21:16 | if we double the PC as planned, is problematic
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| 21:16 | so in any case I will try to improve it :)
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| 21:16 | <alkisg> With vnc? Yes I know the problem
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| 21:16 | With gstreamer, multicasting etc it'd be much faster, but I don't know anyone that has done it
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| 21:17 | We may even have to write a small client to receive the multicasting stream, as opening vlc for it seems inappropriate, too heavy for simple broadcasting
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| 21:17 | <markit> gstreamer only for video, or can be used for teacher's screen also?
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| 21:19 | <alkisg> For the teachers screen
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| 21:19 | So with multicasting it wouldn't matter on how many clients you broadcast
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| 21:19 | It'd go as fast as broadcasting on a single client
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| 21:20 | <markit> oh! I thought was only for video, so good
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| 21:21 | <alkisg> On another note, I did manage to show video with gstreamer simultaneously to all ltsp clients, but not with multicasting
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| 21:22 | It's acceptable though, like normal video but syncrhonized
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| 21:24 | <Phantomas> alkisg: we could use gstreamer for remote *control*?
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| 21:24 | <alkisg> Nope
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| 21:24 | It doesn't handle keyboard+mouse
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| 21:25 | <Phantomas> ok, the good thing with remote control is that you control one client at a time
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| 21:25 | <alkisg> But remote control == 1 pc, so it's not much of a problem
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| 21:25 | RIght
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