IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

Channel log from 1 May 2008 (all times are UTC)

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02:34	<generic> ogra u there
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04:54	<generic> helo
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05:11	<generic> helo
05:11	how i ebanle usb on my thinclinet
05:11	i ahve done ltsp 5
05:12	i did in lts.conf
05:12	LOCALDEV = Y
05:12	is that ok
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05:38	<generic> helo
05:38	guys
05:39	am not able to have usb on ltsp5
05:39	whats wrong
05:39	?
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08:58	<cliebow> Gadi:any easy way to extract timestamp for a folder? i can see stat doing it for files..
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09:10	<Gadi> cliebow: as in: stat -c %y <dirname>
09:10	(thats last modified
09:10	change %y as needed
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09:11	<cliebow> so i read my directory list into an array...
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09:13	<Gadi> ah - in perl?
09:14	<cliebow> yessir
09:15	<Gadi> try: (stat $dir)[9]
09:15	$timestamp = (stat $dir)[9];
09:15	like that
09:16	<cliebow> ok..ill try that again..
09:16	<Gadi> then you can format the timestamp with:
09:16	use POSIX qw(strftime);
09:17	$formatted = (strftime "%c", (localtime $timestamp)[0..5]);
09:17	like that
09:19	* ogra shades his eyes ...
09:19	<ogra> so much perl here
09:20	<cliebow> ogra appreciates the way of the python
09:20	<ogra> :)
09:20	<Gadi> eh - it would be two lines in Python, too
09:20	:)
09:20	just a differnt magic incantation
09:21	<ogra> well, its a matter of the girl wearing the bikini weighting 400 pounds or 100 ponds ;)
09:22	one just looks better (based on your preference)
09:22	<cliebow> a 400 pound bikini..hate to thibk what the girl looks like ;-]
09:23	* ogra points to jerry springer
09:23	<ogra> ;)
09:23	<cliebow> haaa!'
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10:16	<cliebow> foreach my $name (@allfiles){
10:16	my @info=stat($name);
10:16	my $timestamp=$info[9];
10:16	print "$timestamp\n";
10:16	print "$name\n";
10:16	}
10:16	$timestamp is uninitialized
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10:34	* ogra urghs about debian bug 478875
10:34	<ogra> hey vagrantc
10:34	* vagrantc waves
10:36	<vagrantc> ogra: jose's local apps stuff?
10:36	<ogra> yeah
10:37	it wont work that way
10:37	not without hacking up sshfs
10:37	ff will refuse to write to .mozilla if it cant determine the free space iirc
10:38	<vagrantc> well, i know he's been testing it
10:38	mainly wants to use it with firefox/iceweasel
10:38	<ogra> well, he should put it on a wikipage or so
10:39	its nowhere near something i would want to ship in the ldm package
10:39	the localppas scottie implemented work fine already
10:39	* vagrantc wonders if it depended on "-ac"
10:39	<ogra> it sets an xprop value in the root window
10:40	no need for auth
10:40	like the ltspfs token
10:40	<vagrantc> well, the clients on the thin-client side need permission to write to the local X server
10:40	<ogra> you need an rc.d script
10:40	like ltspfs
10:40	the setup is identical
10:40	<vagrantc> it also depends on a pam module that isn't in debian, last i looked.
10:41	<ogra> (we could put it into a common ldm function set btw :) )
10:41	huh ?
10:41	our pam comes from debian
10:42	<vagrantc> libpam-extrasomethingorother
10:42	<ogra> ogra@ceron:~$ apt-cache show libnss-extrausers\|grep Maintainer
10:42	Maintainer: Ubuntu Core Developers <ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>
10:42	Original-Maintainer: Bernhard R. Link <brlink@debian.org>
10:42	comes from debian
10:43	vagrantc, it works fine just needs some cleanup and some extra love on the sshfs side
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10:44	<ogra> (and the gconf issue needs to be solved but thats true for all implementations we would come up with)
10:45	maily its just been lacking a person that takes the time to put in that last week of work to make it proper ...
10:45	*mainly
10:46	(which i was definately planning to do during 8.10)
10:47	<vagrantc> ogra: my thoughts regarding jose's stuff is, if it works on some level, include it as doc/examples ... meanwhile, keep working on something better.
10:48	<ogra> can you get him to make the login search a bit more sane than grepping from the process list ?
10:49	LOGIN=`ps -AF\|grep ssh\|grep @\|cut -f1 -d@\|rev\|cut -f1 -d" "\|rev`
10:49	<vagrantc> i'm sure he will be amenable to any good ideas :)
10:49	<Gadi> fyi, guys: moquist has a fuse-based shim for statfs over sshfs
10:49	<vagrantc> ogra: he was one of the folks i met in extremadura, and is working on the huge LTSP rollout there.
10:49	* ogra hugs moquist
10:49	<Gadi> had it in november in Maine
10:49	<ogra> i knew why i invited him to prague :)
10:50	vagrantc, hrm and he wants to put that on 1000s of installs that way?
10:51	i dont get why he doesnt use the socket instead of the ps stuff
10:51	<vagrantc> ogra: well, he wants something that works.
10:51	ogra: maybe he doesn't know about it. like i said, he's probably happy to get feedback on it.
10:51	<ogra> he should just run id -un or something though the socket to get the name
10:52	oh
10:52	his localapps script recreates .mozilla ?
10:53	ah, no i misread
10:53	well, the xrececd we have in the source should do what his script does
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10:54	<vagrantc> ogra: let me see if i can get him to drop in here ...
10:54	<ogra> FUSEGID=`grep fuse /etc/group\|cut -f3 -d:`
10:54	hmmm
10:54	and you need fuse in the chroot
10:55	<vagrantc> you need fuse in the chroot for sshfs anyways.
10:55	<ogra> ah, right
10:55	well, i wont do much today, get him here on a workday :)
10:56	* ogra didnt ven plan to open the lappie at all today but couldnt resist
10:56	<ogra> GF is angry already
10:56	<Gadi> dont forget - you cannot symlink /etc/mtab either
10:56	<ogra> sure you can
10:56	<vagrantc> oh yeah, i didn't come online for ltsp ... i was going to look up may day events...
10:56	<Gadi> not with sshfs
10:56	<ogra> you can symlink /etc/passwd :)
10:56	<Gadi> sshfs dies if you do
10:56	<ogra> or the world :=
10:57	<Gadi> ogra: stop drinking for a second, would ya?
10:57	<ogra> i guess it does a stat call :)
10:57	Gadi, drinking is the night before may 1st ...
10:57	may 1st is for getting sober :P
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11:02	* warren is so sad.
11:02	* warren cleaning out his desk
11:03	<vagrantc> ?
11:05	<Q-FUNK> ?!
11:05	<ogra> warren, ????
11:05	whats up ?
11:06	<warren> we're moving to a new office =)
11:06	<Q-FUNK> ogra: good walpurgis
11:06	<vagrantc> warren: i was worried you lost your keys in a back drawer or something.
11:06	<Q-FUNK> warren: ah, today is the big day?
11:07	<warren> nod
11:07	<ogra> Q-FUNK, same to you (even though belated, they danced naked last night with their brooms)
11:08	<Q-FUNK> and you have no idea whatthe estonian ones do with their broom... :-D
11:08	<ogra> hahaha
11:09	* ogra wonders, is it no public holiday in the US today ?
11:09	<vagrantc> pfft.
11:09	the government recognized "holidays" today are "Law Day" and "Loyalty Day"
11:09	<Q-FUNK> ogra: they only have 4th of bushistan
11:09	<ogra> vagrantc, that was more aimed at companies forcing their employees to do moving on a free day :)
11:10	<vagrantc> heh
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11:10	<Q-FUNK> like the canadina 1st of july
11:11	<vagrantc> ogra: well, you caught an extra fish on the same line.
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11:31	<johnny> we have a labor day holiday
11:31	but that's in sept
11:31	instead of may day..
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11:33	<ogra> well, may first was actually originally been created by the socialist party .... probably just political issues :)
11:33	* leio enjoyed his free day ;p
11:34	<vagrantc> ogra: was that back in the ancient times when there was a single socialist party?
11:35	<ogra> yeah
11:37	oh, funny
11:38	its apparently been declared as labor day/day of work in the whole world by the socialist party back around 1900 ....
11:39	<leio> now it's just to survive the hangover
11:39	<ogra> as a result of the chicago haymarket riot in 1886
11:39	<vagrantc> general strike!
11:39	<ogra> funny that the whole eastern block and most of europe celebrate it now
11:39	but it goes rather unoticed in many US states
11:41	<Q-FUNK> cold war leftovers; anything communist ist verbotten
11:41	<vagrantc> well, dare i say, it was due to a lot of hard work.
11:42	the US forgot about may day not merely through accident
11:44	<Q-FUNK> on purpose, indeed
11:45	<vagrantc> the creation of "Law Day" was explicitly to draw attention away from labour celebrations
11:45	<warren> Corporate Democracy is the future.
11:46	<Q-FUNK> sorry, what is this domocracy you're talking about?
11:46	<vagrantc> Q-FUNK: it's about holding people captive with little reason and torturing them, last i heard.
11:46	<warren> vagrantc: don't forget the corporate masters
11:47	<vagrantc> i just can't wait till we have decent robots that can become the eathly manifestation of corporations
11:48	<warren> vagrantc: Japan probably has it already
11:48	vagrantc: but they're too busy fighting each other
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11:48	<ogra> haha
11:49	<vagrantc> oh, i had thought Law Day was a failed propaganda attempt, but apparently bush has brought it back to "life"
11:50	<Q-FUNK> he brought cold war back, too
11:50	<vagrantc> it's not cold enough, though.
11:51	<warren> you can blame Samuel P. Huntington
11:54	<vagrantc> wow, loyalty day is even better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_Day
11:55	i'd better go affirm my loyalty quick
11:55	<ogra> Q-FUNK, do your thin cans work properly with alsa ?
11:55	<Q-FUNK> yup
11:55	snd-sc5535audio
11:56	öö
11:56	cs5535
11:57	works like a charm on standalone thincans
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11:57	<Q-FUNK> never tried with ltsp, though
11:57	<ogra> which one now ?
11:57	snd-sc5535audio or cs5535 ?
11:57	(the latter is oss)
11:58	<Q-FUNK> snd-cs5535audio
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11:58	<Q-FUNK> we use alsa
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12:01	<warren> thincan working great with sound here
12:01	<johnny> but for your information
12:01	TV says nothing of loyalty and law day
12:01	only may day
12:02	just thought i'd take a look and see
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12:02	<hwilde> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/+bug/131439
12:02	No sound with AMD DeviceCS5536 [Geode companion] Audio
12:02	https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/alsa-bug/bug_view_advanced_page.php?bug_id=3288
12:02	0003288: No sound with Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] DeviceCS5536 [Geode companion] Audio
12:03	so if it doesn't have any trouble then why are the ubuntu and alsa projects tracking those bugs
12:03	<warren> I don't know anything about Ubuntu
12:03	It works on Fedora 9
12:03	<hwilde> it works for playing a single sound event
12:03	but if you queue up multiple sounds, it does not wait for them to finish
12:03	<warren> what happens?
12:03	<hwilde> as soon as you send it a sound event, it returns finished, before the sound is done
12:03	then it tries to play the next one etc
12:04	for an effect our customers call... stuttering
12:04	it's like a bad dj scratching a record
12:04	<warren> sounds like the driver doesn't handle mixing properly
12:04	<johnny> so.. it should behave like a good dj :)
12:04	<hwilde> that's the thing, i've recompiled alsa 17 different ways and it doesn't make any diff
12:04	<johnny> eg mixing :)
12:04	<hwilde> i've tried playing it through a couple different libraries
12:05	i've converted all the .wav files to .mp3 and .ogg and played them through various programs
12:05	the best is the mp3 playlist, if you queue up a bunch, it flies right through them and stutters and then plays the last in the list
12:05	<Gadi> hwilde: do you play them locally or on the server?
12:05	<hwilde> but... we are getting some sounds... so I guess we're ahead of the curve bc all those bug posts say no sound
12:05	Gadi, locally
12:06	<Gadi> out of curiosity - try lowering your video resolution
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12:06	<Gadi> and see if it improves
12:06	if it does, it may not be the driver but the PCI bus saturating
12:06	these integrated chips sometimes have issues
12:07	<hwilde> there is no video
12:07	<Gadi> ah
12:07	* ogra goes back into his free day ... damned i spent most of it on irc again getting dragged into conversations ...
12:07	<Gadi> you play from console?
12:07	<hwilde> and it does get worse with cpu load
12:08	under typical operation it plays from the code through the tcl snack audio library
12:08	I also tried a c++ lib and various command line mp3 programs
12:08	and aplay
12:08	even the ubuntu login sound stutters on boot up lol
12:08	<warren> another difference here is Fedora doesn't use dmix
12:08	is Ubuntu using dmix?
12:09	hwilde: if you play a MP3 for example, does it stutter once at the beginning and goes smoothly thereafter?
12:09	hwilde: and anything else you play simultaneously is mixed nicely?
12:09	<hwilde> if you play just one file, it is ok
12:10	if you queue up multiple sound files, it stutters through a split second of each, then plays the last one semi-normally
12:10	<warren> "queue up" implies one after another
12:10	<hwilde> yes, on a via-nehemiah system is plays the first one, waits for it to finish, then plays the second one, waits for it to finish, etc
12:11	<warren> On my thincan I'm able to play youtube and totem at the same time
12:11	and I still hear sound effects when I minimize windows
12:11	<hwilde> but on amd-geode it returns finished immediately - it does not wait for the event to finish
12:11	<warren> all of this happens simultaneously
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12:12	<hwilde> do you have the amd geode audio companion?
12:12	<warren> what is that?
12:13	<hwilde> umm the audio chipset or whatever
12:13	the thing we are talking about here
12:14	https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/+bug/131439
12:14	No sound with AMD DeviceCS5536 [Geode companion] Audio
12:14	https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/alsa-bug/bug_view_advanced_page.php?bug_id=3288
12:14	0003288: No sound with Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] DeviceCS5536 [Geode companion] Audio
12:15	<warren> I don't have my thincan here with me
12:15	we're moving offices now
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12:37	<itais> ogra: around?
12:38	<johnny> it's day off for ogra today
12:38	<itais> ah, vagrantc told me he wanted to comment m
12:39	comment me something about the localapp stuff
12:41	<johnny> he was here for a bit
12:41	<vagrantc> itais: i think ogra just finally started not being here.
12:41	heh
12:41	<itais> ah, ok, do you know what were his comments about?
12:42	<vagrantc> itais: i think just some comments about some of the implementation details, and trying to work towards something more acceptible upstream
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12:44	<itais> ah, perfect, I'm totally open to improve it. This fullfil my needs now in the schools, and it works, but obviously I'm sure it can be done better. I have also some ideas to improve it, but no time to do it
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12:45	<vagrantc> itais: that's basically what i figured :)
12:45	itais: i think ogra will be working on it for the 8.10 ubuntu release.
12:46	itais: which, if all goes well, might be similar timeframe to lenny
12:46	<itais> yes, but I needed to have it solved before the end of the spring :-)
12:46	<ogra> ok ok ... my laptop beeps like mad, i see, i have to be here :)
12:46	<vagrantc> itais: i know :)
12:46	<ogra> itais, hey
12:46	<itais> hey, nice to "meet" you
12:47	<ogra> i have some suggestions for your script, vagrant said you urgently need it to work on the big rollout :)
12:48	<itais> perfect, go ahead
12:50	<ogra> using the processlist for determining the username isnt going to work with multiple ldms running and there is a better way to do that :)
12:50	LOGIN=$(ssh -S $LDM_SOCKET $LDM_SERVER "id -un")
12:51	<itais> great, I thought of that possibility, but discarded it by now, that's much better
12:51	<ogra> the good thing here is that $LDM_SOCKET tells you that ldm is running and points you to the right ldm that called the rc script :)
12:52	<vagrantc> localapps and multiple LDMs is likely to just be a nightmare
12:52	<ogra> the ltsplogin file should somehow be made unique to the ldm using it
12:52	(like the socket is)
12:52	<vagrantc> if you're logged into two different servers with two different UID -> NAME mappings
12:52	or if you share the same user locally ...
12:53	<itais> ogra, right, but as vagrantc said I thought that multiple ldm using local apps wouldn't make too much sense. And if somebody does it in my schools I would drive mad
12:54	<ogra> something like $(basename $LDM_SOCKET\|tr -d "ldm_socket")
12:54	<itais> the problem with the ltsplogin file is that I didn't find a way to know who the user was when executing K.., as the ssh connection is already closed
12:54	<ogra> right
12:54	i dont think its wrong to have the user stored somewhere
12:55	<itais> but K20.... needs to get the user name to assure that the connection is closed, sshfs unmounted and there are not remaining process running
12:55	so how can I get it ?
12:56	<vagrantc> stash it in /var/run/ldm/FOO
12:56	* ogra said he doesnt think thats wrong :)
12:56	<ogra> doesnt
12:56	<itais> :-) I've re-read it now
12:56	<ogra> as you do it its fine, i'd just bind the filename to the ldm using it
12:57	like: echo $LOGIN>/var/run/ltsplogin$(basename $LDM_SOCKET\|tr -d "ldm_socket")
12:57	<vagrantc> itais: that's another reason why actually setting up the user locally might be a good thing
12:57	<ogra> (the tr needs improvement though)
12:57	right
12:57	libnss-extrausers can do that for you
12:57	thats what the specced variant uses
12:57	<itais> ok, I'll change the scripts with these tips and test it tomorrow
12:58	libnss-extrausers didn't work for me in the tests I did some months ago, maybe it was not fine on Debian, or I didn't understand its setup
12:59	all my users are in a ldap server that's not in the ltsp-server and I couldn't make it work
12:59	<vagrantc> in my experience, getent works with ldap
12:59	<itais> with this approach I got a workaround joining the filesystem to the ssh connection ldm already open
12:59	<ogra> it worked in the proof of concept setup http://ltspthinclient.blogspot.com/2007/10/local-apps_31.html
12:59	<itais> yes, getent does it
12:59	<ogra> http://ltspthinclient.blogspot.com/2007/11/local-apps-2-next-morning.html
13:00	<itais> I read that blog page, but didn't find your setup, only the photos :-D
13:00	<ogra> yeah
13:00	i was at a meeting that day sadly
13:01	but stgraber attended he'S the most righ tguy on the pic
13:01	<itais> vagrantc: what did you mean with "that's another reason why actually setting up the user locally might be a good thing"?
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13:02	<vagrantc> itais: it will keep track of which users are logged in ... or maybe not. i'm not sure :)
13:02	<ogra> itais, using getent like that $(ssh -S $LDM_SOCKET $LDM_SERVER "getent $(id -un)")
13:02	so you get the complete entry from the session
13:02	and then actually adding the user locally
13:02	<itais> ah, right, I've caught it now
13:03	that's a great idea
13:03	<ogra> adding her to the fuse group and be done :)
13:03	that needs some extra checking though and you need to make sure the user gets properly deleted on logout
13:04	<itais> yeah, the problem there is that passwd & shadow are in a non-writable dir
13:04	<ogra> did you actually test that friefox works with that setup at all ?
13:04	i know it makes some probs if it cant find out the free space on the fs
13:04	<itais> yes, it works, activating logging it complains with a failed locking, but it works
13:04	<ogra> (ahich sshfs prevents due to not having statfs calls implemented)
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13:04	<ogra> *which
13:05	<itais> I had to do the ugly hack you see because of that: my ltsp servers are amd64, and run firefox from inside the ltsp chroot
13:06	<ogra> have you had a look at the xrexecd code in the tlsp source ?
13:07	it works thorugh just dropping an xproperty on the root window
13:07	<itais> and starting it as a local app, it could not modify those paths automatically because GetDataSourceBlocking didn't work properly
13:07	no, I haven't look at that stuff
13:08	<ogra> xrececd runs as daemon on the client and monitors the x properties on the rootwin
13:08	<itais> you're thinking of how to launch the localapp automagically
13:09	<ogra> if you add LTSP_COMMAND=firefox to that rootwin it will pick it up and execute ff on the client
13:09	well, thats how we planned to do it
13:10	i know scott has done some more work on it he didnt publish yet ... and saldy he is MIA at the moment
13:10	*sadly
13:10	<itais> so, it can not be used yet or it just can be improved?
13:11	<ogra> it needs to be finished by someone putting some time in :)
13:11	<stgraber> if rexecd works the way I think it does, you should just have to do a : xprop -f ltsp_command 8s -root -set ltsp_command firefox
13:11	<ogra> i will do that during the ubuntu 8.10 dev cycle if nobody else does it before
13:11	<stgraber> to start firefox
13:11	(assuming xrexecd watches ltsp_command)
13:11	<ogra> well
13:12	capitalized, but yes :)
13:13	<itais> mmm, many things to play with, I had thought I had finished this stuff this week :P
13:13	<ogra> well, feel free to do whatever suits you for your project
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13:14	<ogra> but every step forward in the direction of the spec would really be helpful if someone puts time into it anyway ;)
13:14	<itais> yes, but I like to do things together with upstream,
13:14	<leio> hwilde: yes, warren's thincan has CS5536 for audio.
13:14	<itais> if you plan to do it in that way, I'll try to do it as similar as possible, to make smooth upgrades later
13:14	<warren> leio: I actually didn't look at what my thincan has, it just worked so I didn't bother
13:14	<ogra> probably no 100% that way but as close as possible to the planning
13:15	<scrapbunnyserver> hi there just wanted to say that my flash being slow is fixed a little by removing the info i had in lts.conf
13:15	<leio> warren: right, I work at Artec and DBE61 and DBE62 use CS5536 companion chip, so CS5536 audio ;)
13:15	<ogra> else we would have wasted the time we spent for designing it and that would be sad
13:15	<warren> leio: thanks for clarifying.
13:15	<hwilde> leio, warren, but is it the amd geode ?
13:15	<warren> only thing I can say is that Fedora uses ALSA without dmix and pulseaudio alsa
13:15	<leio> yes, CS5536 is a companion chip that must be used with AMD Geode LX.
13:15	<itais> ogra: anyway, more time is something I'd love to have. I have to end with this part of the project asap, to test it in large scale for some time before the final migration
13:16	<ogra> itais, i.e. i could imagine to just use useradd instead of libnss-extrausers to simplify the setup
13:16	<warren> leio: what is your role at Artec?
13:16	<itais> so I'll spend a couple of days more to be as similar as possible to it, as I don't think I can end it in those days
13:16	<leio> warren: software engineer. As it happens I work most at ThinCans at present
13:16	<itais> ogra: yes
13:16	<ogra> itais, probably vagrantc could enable xrececd building in the debian sid package
13:16	<warren> leio: one of the two thincans I received had a really weird problem, after a few minutes of runtime after it warms up, it begins corrupting memory in random locations, although with a consistent pattern
13:17	<ogra> so you could try it
13:17	<prpplague> leio: thincans? got a url?
13:17	<warren> leio: whatever is supposed to be in a memory location + 08000000
13:17	<leio> I think Q-FUNK was consulted the hardware guys?
13:17	<warren> yeah
13:17	<leio> prpplague: thincan.com
13:17	<warren> I'm going to mail this back after my office moves
13:17	I think I can workaround this problem if I run the thincan from my freezer
13:17	<prpplague> ahh i was adding an s to it
13:18	<warren> difficult to get cables into there
13:18	<prpplague> leio: nice looking boxes
13:18	<leio> warren: hmm, so what's that mean, certain bits corrupted or differing physical locations?
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13:19	<warren> leio: whatever is supposed to be in a 32bit read gets 08000000 added to it
13:19	err, I guess not add
13:19	masked
13:20	leio: corruption but with a predictable pattern
13:20	<leio> so the memory address gets corrupted?
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13:21	<Blinny> Is there a way to un-gray the 'Unlock' buttons in user manager when logged in from a terminal?
13:22	<scrapbunnyserver> sorry to interupt but can any of you recommend a good system monitor to use with 8.04 thin clients?
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13:22	<Blinny> Seems like the old way of prompting for admin PW still works - the new 'Unlock' button method isn't available from thin clients from administrative users.
13:24	<prpplague> leio: don't suppose you guys do oem of the design minus the case?
13:24	<leio> prpplague: We design and manufacture so, so anything is theoretically possible. Talk with Q-FUNK on that :)
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13:26	<prpplague> leio: we don't do any x86 stuff any more, so occasionally we need something
13:31	<Q-FUNK> hm?
13:33	<ogra> Q-FUNK, prpplague wants you to find customers that want to buy thin can cases standalone, so he can buy the boards
13:36	<Q-FUNK> hwilde: sound works fine here, on both debian and ubuntu
13:37	prpplague: we might be persuaded to sell only motherboards or to design a custom case. it depends on the quantities.
13:38	<prpplague> Q-FUNK: we do all our own case stuff, http://www.amltd.com
13:38	Q-FUNK: we mainly do ARM based designs but occasionally we get customers who want a x86 design for something like a forklift
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13:38	<ogra> forklifts are not arm compatible ?
13:39	wow
13:39	* ogra didnt know :)
13:39	<prpplague> ogra: hehe
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13:39	<prpplague> ogra: funny
13:39	<ogra> dont use your forklifts with your arms :)
13:40	<prpplague> ogra: on a roll
13:40	<ogra> heh
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14:01	<empiric> hi all
14:01	i want to enable USB on ltsp 5
14:01	any idea
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14:04	<scrapbunnyserver> can anyone recommend a replacement to the default system monitor? something that can kill runaway processes if possible
14:04	<johnny> i just use htop..
14:04	cli script
14:05	<leio> define "default system monitor"?
14:05	<scrapbunnyserver> the system monitor listed under System-Administraton
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14:07	<leio> the name from its about dialog might help me
14:07	<johnny> leio, it's just the gnome one...
14:07	or kde one .. if on kde..
14:07	<scrapbunnyserver> System Monitor 2.22.0
14:08	<leio> ok, that one can kill processes, not sure about "runaway"
14:08	<johnny> do you mean automatically kill runaway processes ?
14:08	or you manually kill em
14:09	<scrapbunnyserver> i would like something to check what processes are using the most resources and if there is something to automatically kill runaway processes that would be great
14:10	<johnny> htop will do that
14:10	the first part
14:10	<scrapbunnyserver> i have a fresh install of ubuntu 8.04 with the edubuntu add on
14:10	<johnny> the 2nd part.. maybe the app called and
14:10	it seems kinda old tho.. maybe something newer exists
14:11	<scrapbunnyserver> i remember using htop when i tried edubuntu 7.10
14:13	so far hardy looks to run better and i am liking the italc. just having issues with some programs not closing, tux paint/tuxmath/tuxtyping
14:14	my server is a dell poweredge 1750 and i need to be able to run 32 clients on it
14:15	<johnny> dell poweredge 1750 is meaningless
14:16	specs are important
14:19	<scrapbunnyserver> 3gig memory, dual intel xeon 2.40 processors
14:20	<johnny> are you sure tha's enough memory?
14:20	unless you're not running firefox and OOo
14:20	then it prolly is
14:21	<itais> OO is not a problem, as many sessions don't eat much memory, firefox might be a problem
14:21	<scrapbunnyserver> i plan to order more. i'm just testing things with 10 clients now and memory is fine but cpu usage seems really high
14:22	<johnny> yeah.. i'm having CPU usage issues more so here atm as well
14:22	<ogra> itais, that really depends ... many people using lots of differnt galleries in oo.o can make you suffer
14:23	<scrapbunnyserver> i loaded htop and am trying to kill a process and nothing happens
14:23	<ogra> you need to sudo it :)
14:23	<johnny> yes.. you must sudo
14:23	<ogra> you cant just kill other users processes ;)
14:24	<itais> ogra: yeah, but that should be a weird case, running many heavy impress presentations in my tests it never needed more than 2 gb of memory with 30 clients, firefox is another story if they use flash.
14:25	<scrapbunnyserver> :-! should have thought of that
14:26	<ogra> scrapbunnyserver, you culd use thin-client-manager for a per client processlisting (and kill option) but the app is largely unmaintained so i cant tell how well it works (thats why we dropped it as defautl for italc)
14:26	<scrapbunnyserver> htop seems to be working, i just have to remember to sudo it
14:27	<leio> doesn't gnome-system-monitor-2.22 optionally support policykit?
14:27	as for firefox, using Fx3 should probably help a lot, but I guess if you have 2.22 of GNOME, then you have that too for a binary distro
14:27	<johnny> yes.. ff3 beta5
14:27	<ogra> leio, well, for apps that support polkit ... which are not many yet
14:28	<scrapbunnyserver> i got firefox with flash working a little faster. i removed the lines i had put into lts.conf and everything loaded up
14:29	<leio> ogra: that's good in my book.
14:29	<ogra> imho polkit/consolekit still need 6 months to mature
14:30	i wouldnt have pulled them into hardy ... but not my decision and upstream did the switch anyway
14:30	<scrapbunnyserver> still not great but it works for the sites i need the kids to go on :) is there any movement on ltsp-localapps, that looked like a great idea
14:30	<johnny> yes.. a bit of movement
14:30	<ogra> we dscussed some of it here today
14:31	<leio> ogra: upstream did what?
14:31	I have a great gnome-2.22 system here that has no polkit in sight
14:31	<ogra> leio, switch to polkit/ck
14:31	<johnny> yeah.. no polkit here
14:31	<ogra> do your ditros use gnome-system-tools ?
14:31	*distros
14:32	<leio> no, it's broken.
14:32	<ogra> ah
14:32	well, that largely depends on ck now
14:32	<johnny> i do have ck..
14:32	<ogra> right, gdm uses it
14:32	<leio> polkit is not an approved external dependency, so GNOME-2.22 must be able to work without it.
14:32	<scrapbunnyserver> is there any point/advantage to trying something other then gnome for client sessions?
14:33	<johnny> scrapbunnyserver, some people use xfce
14:33	<ogra> and there was that other thing with k
14:33	<leio> I don't get about consolekit on gdm though. I don't see it in approved external deps
14:33	though I'm not so much against ck
14:34	<ogra> well, if apps require ck you are screwed if you use startx
14:34	(unless your distro hacked up something)
14:34	<scrapbunnyserver> i remember trying xfce, wonder if it is worth trying again with 8.04
14:35	<ogra> sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop
14:35	easy to check :)
14:35	<scrapbunnyserver> i would like to have the students run tuxpaint, math and typing but none of them with close right
14:36	i think i will try that and hope that localapp is usable before the start of the new school year
14:37	<ogra> when is that ?
14:37	localapps might be in 8.10
14:37	<scrapbunnyserver> Mid August
14:38	that would still be good, i can at help test it for 8.10 :)
14:39	<lns> I remember talking with one of the devs for tuxtype/paint and he said a lot of the video calls in the code aren't made for thin-clients (but might be easy to fix).. that's as far as I got when i was testing them
14:41	<scrapbunnyserver> the funny thing is that they all seem to run fine, had 3 students running it today, they just won't close so i have to kill them in htop or restart the server
14:42	<lns> scrapbunnyserver, yea - 3-5 students im' sure are fine...but try 35 =)
14:42	and i did experience the 100% cpu thing too when exiting
14:43	same with frozen bubble (a shame, i love that game =) )
14:43	specially since it has lan/inet simultaneous play
14:43	<ogra> try crack-attack ;)
14:44	<lns> lol, nice name =p
14:44	<ogra> very cool game
14:44	slightly addictive in the tetris sense so be careful
14:44	:)
14:44	<lns> let's hope it's not about narcotics... don't think the teachers would approve =p
14:44	ah
14:44	hehe
14:45	<scrapbunnyserver> my thought/plan is to run flash and the tux programs with localapps if possible
14:45	<lns> scrapbunnyserver, flash really isn't that bad even in my labs with 35 students using it at the same time
14:45	shockwave director is obviously an issue but otherwise flash seems fine
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14:47	<lns> and i saw adobe actually made a new release for linux recently
14:48	9.0.124.0 - http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash
14:54	you do want a beefy server for it though, it is fairly resource intensive (what adobe app isn't thou)
14:57	<scrapbunnyserver> i know a few students that will be upset with no shockwave
14:57	oooohh i'll have to try that
14:58	<lns> scrapbunnyserver, google "shockwave linux petition" and sign the form, not that adobe pays attention to it, but still..might help
14:59	that was a HUGE issue for me, as some of their critical learning material was on SW only sites
14:59	<scrapbunnyserver> lns- do you use the open sourse flash driver or the regular adobe one?
14:59	<lns> but I explained it to the admin staff and they seemed to side with me
14:59	scrapbunnyserver, adobe
14:59	gnash seems to work well but adobes works much better (at this point in time, it will probably change later)
14:59	and i'll happily move to gnash
15:00	<scrapbunnyserver> do you have a real beefy server and clients though?
15:00	<lns> beefy server yes
15:00	the clients are celery 500's w/~128mb ram
15:00	and/or other misc ones and neoware e100s
15:00	and koolus
15:01	<scrapbunnyserver> do you use gnome or xfce?
15:01	<lns> servers are mostly HP Proliant ML370 G5's (dual 2x core xeon 1.6GHz, 8GB ram)
15:01	gnome
15:03	<scrapbunnyserver> i am in california so once budget stuff is decided i am going to ask for money to max out my dell server with more ram
15:03	<lns> scrapbunnyserver, cool i'm in CA too - what part?
15:03	<scrapbunnyserver> east bay area, pittsburg
15:03	<lns> north bay, sonoma county =)
15:03	<scrapbunnyserver> very cool
15:04	* ogra wonders where east is in a pacific bay
15:04	<lns> nice to meet some locals!
15:04	<ogra> cat you guys put some logic in your naming of places over there ?
15:04	<scrapbunnyserver> ogra we are about 45 minutes east of San Fran
15:05	<ogra> ah
15:05	<lns> and i'm about 1hr north of SF
15:05	<scrapbunnyserver> so we are in the east of the bay area
15:05	* ogra would expect east to be the shore and west to be water :)
15:06	<ogra> but hey, i suck at geography :)
15:06	<scrapbunnyserver> we actually have the bay on the west and the delta river on the east
15:06	<ogra> yeah i forgot how huge the bay is
15:06	<shogunx> if i put a /etc/X11/Xorg.conf in the chroot, the terms should load that, rather than autodetecting, right?
15:06	<ogra> shogunx, depends, what distro ?
15:07	err
15:07	<shogunx> hardy
15:07	<ogra> no not at all
15:07	you a) need to re-roll the image after you dropped the file in place
15:07	and b) teall the ltsp client scripts to not autodetect
15:07	*tell
15:07	<shogunx> i need to find a way around my geode lx's video chip not being happy with a) the framebuffer and b) X, in that order.
15:08	<scrapbunnyserver> well i am going to reboot in xfce and see what i get. thank again for all your help everyone
15:08	<shogunx> ok. a) is no problem.
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15:08	<shogunx> b) happens in lts.conf or elsewhere?
15:08	<lns> scrapbunnyserver, np - stay in touch
15:09	<ogra> CONFIGURE_X=False
15:09	in lts.conf
15:09	<shogunx> muchos gracias.
15:09	<ogra> then it wont touch it
15:09	shogunx, also its xorg.conf, not Xorg.conf
15:10	<shogunx> i assume i can just blacklist the fb modules also before ltsp-update-image?
15:10	<ogra> you need to rebuild the initramfs after blacklisting
15:10	sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 update-initramfs -u
15:10	<shogunx> ahh. check.
15:10	<leio> lns: have you tried swfdec-mozilla for free flash?
15:11	<shogunx> many thanx ogra
15:11	<ogra> welcome :)
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15:13	<lns> leio, nope
15:13	bbl thou - stupid windows clients always needing attention =p
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15:21	<johnny> i definitely need a solution for my ltsp setup... its' going to hard to justify continued use of ltsp, if i have to move our POS desktop to another physical machine..
15:22	need a way for firefox and flash to cooperate :)
15:29	<ogra> johnny, i fixed the kiosk plugin in hardy ;)
15:29	<johnny> what does the kiosk plugin do again?
15:29	<ogra> if you only need ff and flash
15:30	it isntalls ff as localapp and runs it fullscreen on client boot
15:30	instead of ldm
15:30	if your POS is web based ....
15:30	<laga> i think it installs gdm, right?
15:31	<ogra> right, but only for autostarting the session
15:31	its preconfigured to launch ff
15:31	as user kiosk
15:31	* laga hugs the plugin system
15:32	<ogra> hug vagrantc and otavio for that :)
15:32	<laga> did they force you to do that? i thought you came up with that :)
15:33	<johnny> i would like to have more than firefox..
15:33	<laga> the kiosk plugin is ubuntu/debian specific anyways AFAIK
15:34	<johnny> the plugin system is always in my way .. i override almost more than i use :)
15:36	<moritz> apropos localapps, you think virtualbox could be configured as a localapp rather painlessly?
15:37	<laga> why not? you'll need to install the kernel modules inside the chroot
15:37	<johnny> the POS isn't web based
15:37	<ogra> johnny, how much more ?
15:37	<johnny> terminal
15:37	OOo
15:38	<ogra> you can modify it :)
15:38	<johnny> terminal is fine running remotely tho..
15:38	i guess i could do that damn hack with the ssh back wrapping
15:38	but it seemed slow
15:38	slower than it should be
15:38	the machines are p4
15:38	ins ome cases
15:38	old ones
15:38	but p4 nonetheless
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20:04	<shogunx> hi all. where can i find a list of lts.conf variables?
20:04	for the hardy version of ltsp?
20:05	<ogra> /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/doc/ltsp-client-core/examples/lts-parameters.txt.gz
20:05	<shogunx> thanx again
20:06	<ogra> it doesnt have all ldm options though
20:07	<shogunx> related to compression, encryption, etc?
20:07	i'm just trying to pass a specific resolution to the xserver
20:07	<ogra> ah, no
20:07	LDM_DIRECTX and the autlogin stuff is missing i think
20:08	<shogunx> ahh. will not need to fool with any of that at present.
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20:31	<BGomes> hersonls: i ae
20:33	<hersonls> BGomes: eae
20:33	BGomes: tranquilo?
20:35	<BGomes> hersonls: all fine
20:35	<hersonls> BGomes: good
20:35	BGomes: and POA, cold?
20:35	<BGomes> hersonls: yep
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20:36	<BGomes> hersonls: I make some code here, there are on us svn repos at s1
20:38	<hersonls> for that?
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20:41	<BGomes> hersonls: I send one email in few minute explan this
20:45	<hersonls> BGomes: News mean! new version of the bazaar :D
20:45	i need work :D
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20:57	<gregbrady> Hi everyone! I have ssh sessions working wonderful over my local network and even remotely over the net....how far off is this from being able to remotely boot a computer from a server?
21:00	<shogunx> hmm. silly geode will not give me better than 800x600
21:01	<johnny_> is that even possible gregbrady ..
21:01	closest thing is wake on lan
21:01	unless you have specialized hardware
21:01	<gregbrady> johnny_ maybe I'm not asking the question correctly!
21:02	johnny_ is it close to being able to run a complete X session remotely. (is that more precise?)
21:02	<johnny_> yes
21:02	uhmm.. isn't that what ltsp is?
21:02	what more do you want?
21:03	<gregbrady> johnny_ I thought so. I tried to set it up once but could just not figure it out, so I ended up chopping it up into smaller tasks. Understand and implement ssh first.
21:03	it works wonderfully.
21:04	<johnny_> what couldn't you figure out?
21:04	you should read the edubuntu docs
21:04	even if you're not using ubuntu
21:04	for a good general understanding
21:06	<gregbrady> johnny_ you know, it's been awhile and I forget the specifics. I just got lost in it all and wanted something simpler to work. Well, I've found that so I guess you are right. Try again from the edubuntu docs and see what happens.
21:06	I had problems even getting two ubuntu machines to be able to communicate.
21:06	samba was a disaster....
21:10	<shogunx> is there an X_MODE variable in lts.conf?
21:11	i see it referenced, but not explicitly explained in the doc...
21:14	<gregbrady> johnny_ now I remember.....I am trying to install into a group of computers all connected to a dhcp serving network router with unlimited ip address times. This is instead of having a server with two network cards.
21:15	<johnny_> you don't need two nics
21:15	i don't
21:15	that is.. unless you want it to be a router
21:15	<gregbrady> I already have a router that works just fine.
21:16	<johnny_> exactly
21:16	bbiab
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21:18	<gregbrady> ok, i've installed the server components but I'm unsure of how to boot a thin client
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21:22	<gregbrady> I'd like to keep the thin client as a dual boot
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21:32	<gregbrady> Never mind....I've read through the docs and I just can't figure it out. I'll stick with the awkward ssh X sessions for now. I'll keep researching of course!
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22:12	<johnny> gregbrady, you should ask specific questions
22:15	<gregbrady> johnny, I cannot figure out the process to setup a thin client dual boot
22:16	<johnny> why would you want to do that?
22:16	thin clients don't use hard drives
22:16	normally at least
22:16	<gregbrady> ok, so I would class my laptop as a thick client?
22:16	<johnny> yes
22:16	or fat client
22:17	ie: anormal computer
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22:17	<johnny> people use say fat/thick client around here to refer to netbooted computers, where all processes run locally
22:17	<cpunches> WAIT, what is this thin client/thick client stuff?
22:18	<johnny> nothing cpunches
22:18	<cpunches> and why haven't I ever heard of it?
22:18	and where is documentation on these classifications
22:18	<gregbrady> Ok, what I want is my remote computers to run from the server
22:18	<johnny> remote?
22:18	<gregbrady> No matter what they are
22:18	<cpunches> johnny: ?
22:19	<johnny> ltsp tends to require alot of network usage
22:19	altho usually cuz of firefox/OOo tho...
22:19	<gregbrady> johnny, ok, I want my computers to be able to boot off my server, no matter what the hardware configuration
22:19	<johnny> yes
22:19	well.. there is one hardware configuration
22:19	you need
22:19	which is netbootable network card
22:20	<gregbrady> johnny, ah, I see now
22:20	<johnny> altho i used floppies to emulate that at once
22:20	or cds are possible, but i didn't want to use up the cdrom drive :)
22:20	for just netboot
22:20	<gregbrady> so it is a bios setting?
22:21	<johnny> depends on the computer as to what what the setting is
22:21	but normally you just change the boot order
22:21	so network instead of hard drive
22:21	<gregbrady> ok, it is a compaq r4000, if you are interested
22:24	<cpunches> Ya know, I love asking a direct question and being absolutely ignored.
22:24	It's soooo not rude.
22:24	I mean, how on earth could someone find that offensive; thats beyond me.
22:24	<gregbrady> cpunches, remain calm.
22:25	<cpunches> gregbrady: i was talking to johnny :P
22:25	<gregbrady> still, remain calm
22:25	<cpunches> ........
22:25	Don't tell me what to do. Ever.
22:25	<johnny> cpunches, what is your deal
22:25	<gregbrady> holy cow
22:25	<johnny> what quesiton did you have?
22:25	<cpunches> johnny: i asked you a question :/
22:25	<gregbrady> johnny is doing the best he can
22:26	<cpunches> <cpunches> WAIT, what is this thin client/thick client stuff?
22:26	<johnny> it looked like you were trying to be funny
22:26	<cpunches> cpunches> and why haven't I ever heard of it?
22:26	<cpunches> and where is documentation on these classifications
22:26	<johnny> cpunches, you've bene here before
22:26	<cpunches> <johnny> nothing cpunches
22:26	<johnny> iirc
22:26	<cpunches> I have been here yes :)
22:26	<johnny> you wouldn't be in #ltsp if you didnt' know what a thin client was, would you?
22:26	<cpunches> Uhm. Yes, yes I would; and if I didn't know I wouldn't be asking. I dont use ltsp, I'm scoping it out.
22:27	<johnny> what are you scoping out for?
22:27	why are you waiting? you must be missing some sort of information?
22:27	what is it? :)
22:28	<cpunches> I can't really talk about it. So what are these client classifications...I'm actually still unfamiliar with ltsp's function beyond providing one X server to multiple remote screens
22:28	<johnny> there aren't any real classifications as far as i know
22:28	<gregbrady> johnny, on a more fun note.......I'm still not sure how to start my thick client on a dual boot system.
22:29	<johnny> no.. sorry.. i meant using your laptop or regular desktop computer.. is sometimes called a thick client :)
22:29	<cpunches> johnny: so if there are no classifications, than a thick client is a thin client?
22:29	<johnny> not at all related to ltsp
22:29	<cpunches> ....omfg nevermind, I don't care that much.
22:29	you just said....
22:29	<johnny> i wasn't answering you
22:29	<gregbrady> holy cow, tough crowd
22:30	<johnny> i was talking to him
22:30	sorry.. i'll prefix my responses
22:30	<cpunches> lol
22:30	<johnny> cpunches: no real classifications.. just ho people tend to refer to a slightly large class of computing functions
22:30	how not ho *
22:30	<cpunches> johnny: oh ok. thats an oddly loose definition; its yours or a community definition?
22:31	<johnny> community :)
22:31	it is very loose
22:31	most people say thin client.. when they expect all services to run on the server
22:31	and not locally
22:31	<cpunches> so loose that there isn't one; i love empty jargon
22:31	lol
22:31	<johnny> more like a mainframe
22:31	with terminals
22:31	<cpunches> only its X and not bash
22:31	lol
22:31	<johnny> yes
22:31	<cpunches> sounds like a giant X-forwarding session in ssh
22:32	<johnny> that's what it is..
22:32	but it does have a way for local devices to work
22:32	which just x forwarding wouldn't
22:32	<cpunches> erm...yeah it could
22:32	lol
22:32	<johnny> no.. it wouldn't
22:32	<cpunches> uhm......yes it would
22:32	<johnny> not in linux anwyays
22:32	<cpunches> yes, in linux
22:32	<johnny> tell me how?
22:32	<cpunches> local devices? in ssh?
22:32	<johnny> oh.. i'm not referring to keyboards or mice
22:32	btw
22:32	<cpunches> I believe that would be done with screen
22:33	<johnny> i mean like local hard drives, usb devices
22:33	<cpunches> me too
22:33	<johnny> usb keys
22:33	how so?
22:33	we currently use ltspfs to do that
22:33	which exposes the device on the local machine
22:33	to the server
22:33	via fuse (file systems in user space)
22:33	also over ssh
22:33	<cpunches> oh, you mean where the user wouldn't know they're in a remote session...no, that would be difficult unless you used sshfs, which does all of that.
22:34	<johnny> hmm.. i wonder if there is a diagram
22:34	<cpunches> a diagram would be nice
22:34	<johnny> here's how it goes
22:34	<cpunches> lol
22:34	<johnny> 1. turn on computer that pxe or etherboots
22:34	<cpunches> http://www.engrish.com/image/engrish/do-not-little.jpg
22:34	<johnny> 2. download kernel from tftp server
22:35	3. load initramfs and mount rootfs via nbd or nfs
22:35	4. either bind mount or unionfs over top of certain files and directories like /etc/resolv.conf /etc/fstab /var/run,etc
22:36	so they are writable for this computer's session
22:36	<cpunches> whoa, you're exposing fstab to all of your clients?
22:36	<johnny> no.. it's empty
22:36	it's only there to be bind mounted or have a unionfs overlay on top of
22:37	<cpunches> I must have read wrong, can you explain that better?
22:37	<gregbrady> ok, what is the best way to get a client to a server?
22:37	<johnny> when they get the roofs, the /etc/fstab is empty
22:37	gregbrady, one moment
22:37	<cpunches> gregbrady: by offering free beer?
22:37	johnny: ok, so where is the file generated
22:37	<gregbrady> sure!!!!
22:38	<johnny> but it needs to be there, so you can either bind mount, or have a unionfs on top of it
22:38	so the clietn can write to it
22:38	<cpunches> ok, so its client-configurable
22:38	<johnny> for thier session
22:38	<cpunches> right
22:38	<johnny> but lemme continue
22:38	<cpunches> ok, I'm seeing this as botnet in a box so far
22:38	<johnny> just as much as any other pc.. except most of the rootfs is mounted read only
22:39	so they can't write to it
22:39	only files needed to be run in the session are available to write to
22:39	<cpunches> ok, so why couldn't that be possible to unmount and remount with a livecd and chroot?
22:39	<johnny> no need for a livecd
22:39	that's hte point
22:39	or a cd drive at all
22:39	<cpunches> oh I see
22:39	<johnny> it' is useful if you want your users to be able to burn cds tho
22:39	read #1
22:39	and 3
22:40	err and #2
22:40	it loads the initramfs so it has something to start with
22:40	so it can setup the /etc/fstab so the rootfs will be there, so the rest of the system has something to boot from
22:40	so you'll see either /dev/nfs in there
22:40	or /dev/nbd0 or whatever it is
22:41	if using nbd
22:41	<cpunches> right
22:41	<johnny> which is how ubuntu and debian do it
22:41	<cpunches> unfortunately lol
22:41	<johnny> not really
22:41	it is faster
22:41	i can tell the difference on my network
22:41	<cpunches> i prefer sshfs
22:41	for mine
22:41	for closed development sharing, anyway
22:41	<johnny> the problem with ssshfs
22:42	is that it doesn't expose the results of the stat file system calls
22:42	on purpose
22:42	by the developers of ssh
22:42	<cpunches> tbh i am concerned from what I am hearing about ltsp networks that have cdrom drives on their clients, it sounds like someone could wreak havoc with a few clients
22:42	<johnny> and many programs need to have the stat filesystem calls
22:42	why?
22:42	why would that be any different than any other computer network with cdrom drives?
22:43	cdrom drives are NOT necessary
22:43	<cpunches> well, most networks are not centralized. The vulnerability is usually just the NAT or router.
22:43	<johnny> unless you want your users to have them
22:44	i was mentioning cd rom drives, because many people like having cd burners for their users
22:44	<cpunches> hrm. i'll continue watching and learning more about ltsp.
22:45	<johnny> i thought you wanted to know how ltsp works
22:45	i apologize if you didn't want me to go through
22:45	the technical details
22:45	<cpunches> no its fine, I'm picking up what you're saying. go on if you want lol :)
22:45	<johnny> only if you want to know :)
22:45	<gregbrady> Ok, I can ask for help where?
22:45	<cpunches> i need to learn about it eventually anyway
22:46	<johnny> do you understand why sshfs is not feasible for the entire setup?
22:46	we especially have a problem with sshfs and firefox
22:46	<cpunches> johnny: yes
22:46	<warren> firefox needs stat?
22:46	<johnny> yes
22:46	<cpunches> johnny: whats wrong with links? lol
22:46	<johnny> it checks the size of the directory it writes too
22:46	<cpunches> or lynx
22:47	<johnny> cpunches, well.. if you think your users will like it.. :)
22:47	<cpunches> screw gecko sharp and all that lol I demand lynx! lol
22:47	<johnny> so, after that
22:47	<cpunches> oh. users. yeah, I suppose they can be important sometimes.
22:48	<johnny> then it reads in what you setup for /etc/lts.conf , which is how you tell it certain ways it should run
22:48	like setting specific modules to load, or certain x settings to use, whether you can use local devices, etc
22:48	<cpunches> so i imagine the server is running a daemon of some sort, like ltspd?
22:49	<johnny> sorta..
22:49	there is an ldminfod
22:49	but all it does is share the default language settting
22:49	and the server's load rating
22:49	<gregbrady> ok, I'll try again tomorrow, thanks!
22:49	<cpunches> so is /etc being shared by all the clients?
22:49	<johnny> that way the client can pick a different server
22:49	shared.. but not writable
22:49	gregbrady, hold up a moment
22:49	butnot from the server
22:49	<gregbrady> johnny, not a problem
22:50	<cpunches> oh ok, so /etc/shadow is accessible, and the command chroot can be downloaded and run
22:50	<johnny> sorry.. i screwed up
22:50	i forgot to mention how you strt it
22:50	when you first install ltsp
22:50	you setup a client chroot
22:50	which contains a bare minimal system for the cleint to bootfrom
22:50	<cpunches> on the server side?
22:51	ok
22:51	<johnny> and that is the rootfs from /opt/ltsp/arch on the server
22:51	<cpunches> oh good
22:51	<johnny> so the /etc you use there, is not the server's main /etc
22:51	<cpunches> oh ok i was like wtf
22:52	<johnny> so it has X, kernel modules for the ltsp provided kernel, and some ltsp specific scripts
22:53	the ltsp speciic scripts tell it what to do when it has booted
22:53	which is read /etc/lts.conf and doing things based off that
22:54	<cpunches> oh ok. so whats in place to keep some kid from downloading this: http://securitydot.net/xpl/exploits/vulnerabilities/articles/684/exploit.html on my network and phragging the whole network?
22:54	hersonls has quit IRC
22:54	<johnny> all the programs they use run on the server by default
22:55	<cpunches> ?
22:55	what do you mean, I dont see the connection
22:55	especially if they can just download all the tools they need
22:55	<johnny> the processes all run on the server by default
22:55	<cpunches> what does that have to do with the NFS exploit ?
22:56	<johnny> i don't know how it works
22:56	i'm not the security expert around here
22:56	<cpunches> oh ok.
22:56	<gregbrady> Oh my
22:56	<johnny> that explout you pointed me to
22:56	<cpunches> well thanks for the heads up, that was very informative.
22:56	<johnny> you don't even need to use nfs
22:57	nbd is default on ubuntu
22:57	<cpunches> yes, I hear that. http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-237-1
22:57	<johnny> but.. i really don't see how you would ever safe from any exploit
22:57	any time
22:57	on any computer system
22:58	<cpunches> johnny: .....lol
22:58	<johnny> you could make an argument about exploits for every application
22:58	that are just as bad
22:58	<cpunches> uhm...no. I have no worries on my slackware system, or my Unreal IRCd
22:58	<johnny> sure.. but your users?
22:58	<cpunches> my freebsd on the other hand...lol
22:58	<johnny> you don't run firefox?
22:59	<cpunches> what about my users?
22:59	<johnny> or any other popular but possibly buggy apps?
22:59	and exploitable
22:59	rjune_ has joined #ltsp
22:59	<cpunches> hrm....none that I can think of....even if so, they're not going to get root privs unless their user can get root privs.
23:00	and even if they knew the root password...they couldn't get root privs.
23:00	<johnny> well.. so you see a problem with mounting any system over the network?
23:00	<cpunches> no
23:00	<johnny> so.. how is that any different than how secure it would be with ltsp
23:00	if you set it up securely
23:00	hersonls has joined #ltsp
23:00	<johnny> i don't understand your issue with security specifically related ltsp
23:01	<gregbrady> johnny, good point
23:01	<cpunches> I think its a Can-O-Botnet lol but I'm reserving smart alec whips for when I know more about it :P
23:01	<johnny> give me a specific example
23:01	about how it would be
23:01	more so than any other network
23:01	rjune_ has left #ltsp
23:02	<cpunches> johnny: i would need to install it and use it before I dared have a conversation like that :P
23:02	<johnny> oh.. i thought you already had a valid security concern
23:02	if you didn't.. why did you bring it up?
23:02	<gregbrady> Ok, I love your argument and so on, but I must go now......thanks for the attempt at help. Maybe I'll try tomorrow night and se what happens
23:02	<cpunches> no, it just screams to me for some reason :P
23:03	gregbrady: dont be such a whimp
23:03	<johnny> well it sounds "unresonable" for now
23:03	<cpunches> johnny: agreed
23:03	<johnny> gregbrady, you need to be more specific in your question :)
23:03	<gregbrady> cpunches.....I can tough it out!
23:03	<johnny> and we aren't having an argument anyways :)
23:03	i dont think we are
23:03	<cpunches> we arent
23:04	<gregbrady> johnny, your argument went on so long I forgot!
23:04	<cpunches> everyone in the channel isn't insulted and I am not banned, so we are not having an argument lol
23:05	<johnny> so..ldm is just a nice little graphical way to have a graphical login over ssh
23:05	<cpunches> johnny: did you see that ndb exploit taht granted remote execution of root-level arbitrary commands?
23:05	<johnny> no
23:05	<cpunches> http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-237-1
23:06	<johnny> i trust that i am kept up to date as needed
23:06	<cpunches> lol dont depend on your package manager for that :P
23:06	<johnny> distros are usually pretty good about security updates..
23:06	good enough for me anyways
23:06	<gregbrady> ok, thanks for ruining the ltsp project for me...Good evening
23:06	<johnny> gregbrady, huh?
23:06	<cpunches> gregbrady: dont be such a wimp
23:06	<johnny> don't take cpunches too seriously.. he is not a contributor to the project
23:07	the people who contribute to this project are awesome
23:07	they are just away right now
23:07	<cpunches> oh, and I am not awesome?
23:07	:)
23:07	<-- awesome
23:07	<johnny> cpunches, but you need to chill out tho.. it's not cool to talk to somebody you don't know like that
23:08	<cpunches> johnny: its the internet, and it is IRC. go to a support channel for any distro and tell me there's not an abrasive hacker culture behind most of the interaction there. Your transactional analysis needs more work than my transactions.
23:09	:P
23:09	And if I feel like I need to chill out, I will chill out.
23:09	so what country are you in?/
23:09	<gregbrady> No worries, I will try again tomorrow, thanks.
23:09	<cpunches> killall -u gregbrady
23:09	<johnny> cpunches, i try to stop that
23:10	that kind of behaviour isn't acceptable here
23:10	<cpunches> cat /dev/random > johnny
23:10	<gregbrady> I am just asking for help here!
23:10	<johnny> gregbrady, don't listen to him :)
23:10	<cpunches> gregbrady: you are not, you're complaining about asking for help
23:11	* cpunches goes back to lurking
23:11	<johnny> gregbrady, can you explain the network in which you would like to use ltsp ?
23:11	<gregbrady> johnny, a home network
23:11	johnny, very simp.e
23:11	<johnny> how many computers
23:11	<gregbrady> johnny, about 5
23:12	<johnny> what will be there purpose?
23:12	their*
23:12	<gregbrady> My son, my wife....very simple and controlled access
23:13	I just want simple one machine upgrade and update access.....the rest can login
23:13	<johnny> in ltsp.. it is important that one machine that serves to the others
23:13	to be much more powerful
23:13	to handle all the programs the other computers run
23:13	<gregbrady> My main machine is
23:14	<johnny> but.. don't you already use your main machine for other things/
23:14	<gregbrady> Part time
23:14	Very part time
23:15	<johnny> what do you use it for?
23:15	<gregbrady> If this works good, I would even dedicate this machine. 1 TB of hard drive......2 GB of RAM
23:15	The server is used as a chat computer once in awhile
23:16	<johnny> ok
23:16	so.. did you already install ubuntu on it?
23:16	<gregbrady> I have 2 laptops....one internet remote....one local, plus 2 desktops
23:16	all connected to (hopefully) one server
23:17	Maybe not the best solution?
23:19	maybe not responding?
23:19	<johnny> well you would want the laptops
23:19	to still use a normal OS i think.. if they get taken out of the house
23:19	and eprhaps away from internet connections
23:20	<gregbrady> I have squid and dansquardian working for my son....
23:20	I'm not sure what else to do there
23:22	<johnny> they could be setup to boot off ltsp.. but then they would have a different setup when they are at home.. vs when they are away
23:22	i personally wouldn't like that.. if i was the user
23:23	<gregbrady> hmm i have to think about the setup now....I thank you for your input!
23:24	<johnny> it is most useful for computers that are always connected to the same network
23:24	gregbrady has quit IRC