IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 31 March 2013 (all times are UTC)
| 00:00 | alexqwesa__ has joined IRC (alexqwesa__!~alex@109.172.12.47) | |
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| 00:23 | <Enslaver> Question, why isn't ltsp-build-client only used for fat clients? I mean why even have it build thin images?
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| 00:24 | <vagrantc> ?!
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| 00:24 | <Enslaver> i'm not saying not have thin images, I'm saying why do they need to be so dynamic?
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| 00:24 | <vagrantc> Enslaver: how else would you propose to build thin client images?
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| 00:25 | <vagrantc> i don't see any reason to do them any differently?
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| 00:25 | <Enslaver> My question is why does each person need to build one?
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| 00:25 | <vagrantc> rather than shipping a thin client image in a package or some such?
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| 00:25 | <Enslaver> yeah
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| 00:25 | we all get together and design a very very slimmed down image
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| 00:25 | <vagrantc> it would be a licensing nightmare in debian...
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| 00:25 | <Enslaver> doesn't matter what os
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| 00:26 | ubuntu then?
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| 00:26 | <vagrantc> well, i want thin clients supported in debian...
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| 00:26 | <Enslaver> I don't see licensing being an issue considering we arn't selling the image
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| 00:26 | supported how? commercially?
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| 00:27 | <vagrantc> that's your choice
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| 00:27 | supported technically
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| 00:27 | i want the flexibility of a debian system for my client images, fat or thin.
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| 00:27 | <Enslaver> I was playing with berry terminal earlier, thats what gave me the idea
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| 00:28 | I could do a DIY linux thin image customized to make it very fast booting and ship it inside the rpms
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| 00:29 | then use the ltsp-build-image only for fat clients
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| 00:29 | <vagrantc> if you have a distro willing to ship that, and that's what you think is a good way forward, go for it.
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| 00:29 | <Enslaver> Do you foresee anything not working on the technical side?
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| 00:30 | <vagrantc> not at all
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| 00:30 | there's nothing in the existing model that prevents that
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| 00:30 | <Enslaver> heck, even if i didn't include it in the rpms and just added a torrent link with a torrent cli to grab it that would work
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| 00:31 | * vagrantc likes running security and other updates for the images and being able to install whatever is available | |
| 00:32 | <Enslaver> well if the image doesn't have any open ports other than maybe a printer port then i don't think security would be an issue
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| 00:32 | <vagrantc> we've definitely talked about building pre-built images before, it wouldn't be hard to automate.
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| 00:33 | many people ignore security and get away with it, true.
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| 00:33 | <Enslaver> I don't think ignoring it would be the right way
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| 00:33 | <vagrantc> but there are always vulnerabilities
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| 00:33 | <Enslaver> True, you'd have to keep the images semi-current
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| 00:34 | <vagrantc> basically, i don't want my thin clients to require a different distribution model than the server that supports them.
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| 00:34 | <Enslaver> why do they have to have a distro?
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| 00:35 | <vagrantc> so i guess, the way you worded the question suggests getting rid of a model that works quite well for me came across oddly
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| 00:35 | <Enslaver> i have no doubt it works well
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| 00:35 | i use it daily, i know it works well =)
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| 00:35 | I'm just looking at alternatives
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| 00:35 | <vagrantc> i have a distro on the server, i want the same distro in the * client environment
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| 00:36 | <Enslaver> right but what I'm saying is why do the clients even need a distro? It could just be a kernel with some compiled binaries along with ldm
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| 00:36 | <vagrantc> welcome to LTSP 4
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| 00:36 | <Enslaver> i.e. buildroot
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| 00:37 | yes =(
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| 00:37 | err =)
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| 00:37 | 4.2 we still use today
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| 00:37 | <vagrantc> it was a lot of work to maintain yet another distro, thus the idea of switching to leveraging the bulk of the work to other distros
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| 00:38 | simple though the distro may be, it's still yet another distro
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| 00:38 | hence ltsp 5...
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| 00:39 | <Enslaver> yes but if you could have both
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| 00:39 | <vagrantc> go ahead and make it so :P
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| 00:40 | seems like a lot of extra work for minimal gain
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| 00:40 | <Enslaver> its compiling now, just thought i'd run it by ya
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| 00:41 | <vagrantc> well, i guess i've revealed my colours :)
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| 00:41 | <Enslaver> What do you think the best way to distribute this would be? Also how small you think i could get it? I'm aiming for under 100meg
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| 00:43 | my base squashfs is 499mb, so it shouldn't be too challenging
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| 00:43 | <vagrantc> compressed?
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| 00:44 | <Enslaver> 459*
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| 00:44 | yes
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| 00:44 | squashfs compressed
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| 00:44 | haven't tried bz2 yet
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| 00:44 | <vagrantc> well, you could probably blow away a lot of dirs ... or go the route of only including what you want (more like TCOS or PXES)
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| 00:45 | i.e. /usr/share/doc /usr/share/man or similar dirs
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| 00:48 | <Enslaver> whats TOCS?
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| 00:48 | TCOS?
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| 00:48 | <vagrantc> a thin client system
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| 00:49 | basically, they build an initramfs and rootfs image out of the server
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| 00:50 | only including the minimal things needed to accomplish thin client stuff
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| 00:51 | <Enslaver> What will LTSP 6 introduce?
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| 00:52 | <vagrantc> not yet decided
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| 00:52 | <Enslaver> 3d? =)
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| 00:53 | <vagrantc> seems like we're looking at libpam-sshauth and GDM3/lightdm/KDM/*DM instead of LDM
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| 00:53 | rewriting the lts.conf type stuff
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| 00:53 | rethinking ltspfs
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| 00:53 | <Enslaver> 459M /opt/ltsp/images/thinclient.img
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| 00:53 | 451M thinclient.img.bz2
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| 00:53 | not a whole lot of saving :(
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| 00:53 | <vagrantc> look at the savings!5~
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| 00:53 | xz?
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| 00:53 | <Enslaver> lol
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| 00:53 | i'll try xz
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| 00:54 | <vagrantc> are you compressing a compressed squashfs, though?
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| 00:54 | <Enslaver> yes
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| 00:54 | <vagrantc> that's not going to get much smaller ...
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| 00:54 | might have better luck compressing an uncompressed squashfs
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| 00:54 | <Enslaver> tar.xz
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| 00:55 | <vagrantc> ah.
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| 00:57 | <Enslaver> i've been looking at berry terminal and trying to figure out what this guy was trying to accomplish, have you looked at it?
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| 00:57 | it includes openvpn and stunnel
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| 00:57 | spice and speex
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| 00:57 | along with cli torrent ?
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| 01:05 | <vagrantc> i glanced at it brieflyy
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| 01:06 | i was mostly interested in berryboot, since i'd already managed to make a raspbian based thin client
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| 01:06 | wanted to do kexec to simulate network booting ...
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| 01:06 | but kexec doesn't work consistantly
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| 01:51 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: libpam-sshauth should support multiple servers.
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| 01:51 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: already, or as a goal?
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| 01:52 | <sbalneav> You just have to set the LIBPAM_SSHAUTH_HOST and _PORT environment variables before the pam module runs.
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| 01:52 | I haven't tested it, but the design is there.
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| 01:53 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: so the entry in /etc/pam.d/* doesn't actually require the server= entry?
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| 01:53 | <sbalneav> And the user directory it creates is unique.
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| 01:53 | <vagrantc> or host=
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| 01:53 | <sbalneav> No, but if you don't have 1 of the host= parameter in the pam file, OR the env vars created first, it will fail.
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| 01:54 | So somewhere you have to specify the host. I don't want a "fallback" host coded in.
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| 01:55 | <vagrantc> might be good to require all hosts to be in the /etc/pam.d/* entry, and the variable is just used to choose between them?
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| 01:56 | <sbalneav> Can't see a reason for it.
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| 01:57 | <vagrantc> well, essentially it grants local access ... you might be able to specify a remote server of your choosing that has more permissive group or uids than you should have
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| 01:58 | <sbalneav> How would you specify that when you aren't logged in yet? It would have to be something root would have to set up in the env, either through lts.conf, or some other method.
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| 01:58 | <vagrantc> there are already users of libpam-sshauth in the wild, and my guess is they aren't running ltsp ...
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| 01:58 | so i'm thinking more generally
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| 01:59 | <sbalneav> Same thing.
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| 01:59 | <vagrantc> well, if i have a local account with almost no access, but i control an ssh server that adds me to the sudoers group ...
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| 01:59 | <sbalneav> You'd have to set that environment variable up for the display manager itself, which runs as root.
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| 02:00 | <vagrantc> you need root access in order to use libpam-sshauth?
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| 02:00 | couldn't, say, set it up as a login service?
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| 02:00 | or even, crazy, for ssh logins ...
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| 02:01 | <sbalneav> You know of a non-root way to edit either the /etc/pam.d files, or add an envionment variable to the display manager BEFORE it runs?
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| 02:01 | <vagrantc> pam_test ?
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| 02:02 | <sbalneav> again, you have to edit the /etc/pam.d files
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| 02:02 | <vagrantc> lets say it's set up with host=foo
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| 02:02 | <sbalneav> ok
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| 02:03 | <vagrantc> but i specify LIBPAM_SSHAUTH_HOST=bar ssh localhost
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| 02:03 | <sbalneav> how do you specify that?
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| 02:03 | <vagrantc> or LIBPAM_SSHAUTH_HOST=bar /sbin/login
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| 02:04 | LIBPAM_SSHAUTH_HOST=bar su -c someuser
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| 02:04 | <sbalneav> but /etc/pam.d/login doesn't have the pam_sshauth line
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| 02:04 | <vagrantc> what if it does
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| 02:04 | ?
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| 02:04 | maybe we want logins authed using libpam-sshauth?
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| 02:05 | or su
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| 02:05 | or any random service in /etc/pam.d
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| 02:05 | <sbalneav> patches are greatfully accepted; I don't see the need.
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| 02:06 | this module isn't designed to be a general-purpose pam module.
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| 02:06 | it's designed for our purpose.
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| 02:06 | <vagrantc> ok, just raising an issue that maybe isn't real
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| 02:06 | but seems like it could be
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| 02:06 | <sbalneav> That
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| 02:07 | <vagrantc> if it is a real risk, we should document it
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| 02:07 | i'll see what damage i can do to myself :)
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| 02:07 | <sbalneav> Better is for me to remove the environment variable and restrict it to one host.
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| 02:08 | <vagrantc> i thought you didn't think it was a risk?
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| 02:08 | <sbalneav> I don't.
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| 02:08 | But you seem to.
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| 02:09 | The module works, I think we should leave it alone until we get the OTHER things working.
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| 02:09 | <vagrantc> i think it might be, haven't proven anything, but really don't want to disable support for multiple hosts :)
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| 02:09 | i hear ya
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| 02:10 | <sbalneav> anyway, back to trying to get localdevs going...
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| 02:10 | * sbalneav putters | |
| 02:10 | * vagrantc cheers on sbalneav | |
| 02:11 | * vagrantc thinks about writing some code to generate the ltsp-FOO.desktop files | |
| 02:12 | <vagrantc> so you can have local or remote session selection ...
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| 02:12 | maybe tomarrer
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| 02:15 | hmmm... setting default sessions for arbitrary DMs is... tricky.
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| 07:22 | <markit> hi ppl :) hi alkisg, I've a video from that school I'm helping, that strange but today all clients are working fine (mistery?!?), where I see "Trying to load pxelinux.cfg/XYZ" where XYZ changes (seems tryies multiple stuff) and wastes a lot of time in this phase, any idea?
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| 07:27 | (at the end finds "default" and boots fine, but wasted 1 minute in that phase!)
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| 07:33 | <alkisg> markit: from the first "trying pxelinux.cfg/xx" to the last "default", it should take 0.1 secs. How long between them?
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| 07:39 | <markit> alkisg: hi :) about 40 seconds
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| 07:39 | is very slow
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| 07:40 | about 5 seconds for every XYZ
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| 07:41 | I'm fetching tcpdump file from that server
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| 07:46 | seems tries 9 time each filename
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| 07:47 | <alkisg> markit: try it with ipxe
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| 07:47 | Otherwise, create a symink for its mac address to pxelinux.cfg/default
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| 07:48 | E.g. pxelinux.cfg/01-a1-b2-c3-d4-e5-f6
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| 07:48 | symlink to pxelinux.cfg/default
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| 07:58 | <markit> ok
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| 07:59 | tftp traffic in general seems quite slow
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| 08:11 | I've also some 192.168.20.10 192.168.20.102 ICMP 87 Destination unreachable (Port unreachable)
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| 08:11 | on Destination port: 60985 (60985)
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| 08:22 | alkisg: with the symlink works fine
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| 08:22 | now my friend is trying to create a boot ipxe support
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| 08:23 | but trying with hardware that boot fast for sure in the other school is slow too (without the symlink you suggested)
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| 08:23 | <markit> so seems a problem on the server side, or with something else (I've suggested him to connect directly to the server bond0, let's see)
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| 08:40 | <alkisg> Which tftp server are you using?
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| 08:41 | <markit> alkisg: ii tftpd-hpa 5.2-1ubuntu1
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| 08:42 | I see the client asking for pxelinux.cfg/XYZ, the server reply "not found" and the client asking again... and this 8-9 times , then tries new name
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| 08:42 | 1297 126.676 192.168.20.102 192.168.20.10 TFTP 116 Read Request, File: /ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/01-00-e0-4d-81-31-39, Transfer type: octet, tsize\000=0\000, blksize\000=1408\000
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| 08:43 | 1298 127.465 192.168.20.10 192.168.20.102 TFTP 61 Error Code, Code: File not found, Message: File not found
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| 08:43 | <muppis> That's normal. It first asks specialized file name based to client mac.
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| 08:44 | <markit> muppis: yep, but the sequence is here:
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| 08:44 | ask for XYX, ask AGAIN for the SAME, server says "I've not"
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| 08:44 | then client asks again for the same XYZ, maybe 1 or 3 times
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| 08:44 | the server replies "I've not"
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| 08:45 | again again again, then after 9 queries and maybe 4 answers, THEN client changes XYZ to something shorter
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| 08:45 | and the cycle repeats again
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| 08:45 | wasting 40 seconds before it uses "default" name
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| 08:45 | <muppis> It should increase asked filename per ask.
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| 08:45 | <markit> while should be much much faster
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| 08:45 | decrease
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| 08:45 | <muppis> Bogus pxe in nic?
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| 08:46 | <markit> 3 different type of hw has been tested, one works fine in the other school
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| 08:46 | but not here
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| 08:46 | <muppis> Either way, not even twice with same name.
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| 08:48 | <alkisg> Try with another tftp server like dnsmasq
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| 08:48 | And, with ipxe
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| 08:49 | <markit> muppis: http://filebin.ca/c4ckFZsi4Jq/wireshark_tftp.png
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| 08:50 | <muppis> markit, uhh.. Too small screen to read right now. :)
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| 08:51 | And somehow bugs. Doesn't open in browser where I could zoom.
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| 08:52 | <markit> muppis: can't you download the image, open with a image viewer and zoom there?
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| 08:54 | <muppis> It downloads it and opens in viewer, but viewer doesn't support zoom. >)
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| 08:54 | I'm using N900 right now.
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| 08:57 | <markit> oh, I see :) waiting my friend prepare ipxe, I see grep tftp syslog with messages like
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| 08:57 | Mar 31 10:15:24 serverme in.tftpd[18779]: tftp: client does not accept options
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| 08:57 | Mar 31 10:21:31 serverme in.tftpd[19140]: tftpd: read: Connection refused
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| 10:16 | <markit> now seems to ignore also mac address links
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| 10:25 | <alkisg> markit: use relative symlinks, not absolute ones
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| 10:25 | ln -s default 01-mac-address
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| 10:26 | <markit> cd /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg
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| 10:26 | ln -s default 00:E0:4D:81:31:39
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| 10:26 | uppercase is it ok?
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| 11:02 | <alkisg> markit: no
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| 11:02 | ln -s default 01-00-e0-4d-81-31-39
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| 11:02 | With 01- in front of it
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| 11:02 | <markit> AH! and lowercase? why 01? (I've seen it in some log)
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| 11:03 | (tftp syslog to be precise)
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| 11:08 | alkisg: ok, works now, but every file is asked 13 times. Now with mac it asks only 2 files
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| 11:08 | (well, in addition to /ltsp/i386/pxelinux.0 or /ltsp/i386/vmlinuz-3.5.0-26-generic)
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| 11:18 | <alkisg> markit: did you try with dnsmasq/ipxe?
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| 11:18 | <markit> no, my friend did not create a ipxe usb key, maybe in the afternoon
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| 11:19 | and not tried with dnsmasq either, but I could waiting for the dinner
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| 11:19 | I'm puzzled by double requests as well
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| 11:19 | Mar 31 13:12:18 serverme in.tftpd[30193]: RRQ from 192.168.20.101 filename /ltsp/i386/lts.conf
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| 11:19 | Mar 31 13:12:21 serverme in.tftpd[30195]: RRQ from 192.168.20.101 filename /ltsp/i386/lts.conf
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| 11:19 | Mar 31 13:12:21 serverme in.tftpd[30195]: tftpd: read(ack): Connection refused
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| 11:20 | having server at 64 bit puts us in a not very often tested situation, I guess
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| 11:20 | but in the other school the same setup works fine
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| 11:20 | I've checked the switch, flow control is off, there is not strange rule or setting there
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| 11:20 | we have also changed switch
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| 11:24 | dnsmasq works fine
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| 11:25 | let's remove the macaddress link
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| 11:27 | <markit> alkisg: yes, the "guest the file name" process with dnsmasq lasts less than a second
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| 11:27 | while with tftp-hp 40 seconds
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| 15:20 | <ltspuser_25> Hi all <any help related to ltso KIOSK mode>
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| 15:21 | ltsp KIOSK mode
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| 15:22 | <vagrantc> !ask | echo ltspuser_25
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| 15:22 | <ltsp`> ltspuser_25 ask: Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least a full hour after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel.
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| 15:24 | <ltspuser_25> ok thanks after bulding the cleint in kiso mode i have normal ubuntu desktop login scree
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| 15:24 | do there is any config missing
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| 15:30 | <vagrantc> ltspuser_25: i haven't used the ubuntu kiosk plugins, but there should be some kiosk related configuration in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
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| 15:30 | <ltspuser_25> thanks
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| 15:30 | <vagrantc> did you have a previously configured ltsp install on the same machine?
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| 15:30 | <ltspuser_25> i will try
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| 15:30 | yes
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| 15:33 | <vagrantc> !seen gbaman
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| 15:33 | <ltsp`> gbaman was last seen in #ltsp 4 days, 0 hours, 28 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <gbaman> and what else is required
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| 15:34 | <vagrantc> well, i've managed to install and configure the ltsp packages on the raspberry pi foundation's raspbian-based image.
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| 15:34 | only took a few tweaks
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| 15:36 | now back to setting up fatclients...
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| 15:36 | and thin clients on the RPI
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| 16:12 | <ltspuser_25> .
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| 16:29 | * vagrantc wonders if there's a better way to detect if plymouth is in use beyond just checking that it's installed | |
| 16:30 | <alkisg> vagrantc: like, plymouth --ping?
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| 16:33 | * vagrantc wonders if ltsp-core contains a call to plymouth that's long since been obsoleted | |
| 16:34 | <vagrantc> i've worked around it by adding: || true
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| 16:35 | <alkisg> vagrantc: the help from ubuntu's plymouth --help, dunno if it's the same in debian or not, but the 'quit --retain-splash' is there... http://paste.ubuntu.com/5664778/
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| 16:36 | Isn't `/bin/plymouth quit --retain-splash || true` what ltsp-core already had?
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| 16:38 | <vagrantc> not in the version in wheezy
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| 16:38 | in ltsp-trunk
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| 16:38 | committed it when working on the raspbian stuff
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| 16:38 | default install doesn't contain plymouth, but if you install plymouth, but don't use it... it fails to boot :(
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| 16:39 | i think if you use plymouth, it works fine...
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| 16:39 | dunno how destructive: || true is if plymouth is in use but fails for some other reason
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| 16:41 | <alkisg> We don't want our initscript to fail if plymouth fails for whatever reason, so || true does sound fine to me
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| 16:41 | * vagrantc ponders if this will be feasible to get into wheezy ... | |
| 16:42 | <alkisg> Also, we have || true in almost all commands there, so I wonder if `set -e` is actually appropriate...
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| 16:42 | <vagrantc> heh
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| 16:42 | <alkisg> E.g. if a screen dies, we want all other screens to die too? I don't think so...
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| 16:47 | vagrantc: after debian release, how easy it is to upload bug fixes in main? Similar to Ubuntu SRU's?
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| 16:49 | <vagrantc> alkisg: probably a bit more difficult
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| 16:51 | <alkisg> I wonder if it would be possible for both debian and ubuntu to freeze at the same point, e.g. every 2 years, and then each of them release whenever it wants...
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| 16:51 | Debian when it's ready, and Ubuntu on its timed schedule... It would make things much easier for package maintainers and sysadmins...
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| 16:51 | * vagrantc nods | |
| 16:52 | <vagrantc> this is the first time that debian expeimented with the time-based freeze.
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| 16:53 | the biggest problem, i think, is people didn't pay attention and have things properly ready for the freeze
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| 16:57 | i know i was scrambling a bit too much in the last month before the freeze for ltsp
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| 18:44 | <sman> It seems the "Install an LTSP server" in modes when installing Ubuntu has gone from the 12.04.2
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| 18:44 | Does anyone here know what then to do?
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| 18:44 | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
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| 18:45 | Should I just install it normally, and then apt-get install ltsp-server-standalone ?
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| 18:45 | s/it/Ubuntu/
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| 18:56 | <jam1> happy easter friends
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