IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 3 March 2007 (all times are UTC)
| 00:14 | <astroboy> Gentlemen, I let ltsp-build-client run while doing other things, and on return .....
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| 00:14 | "info: LTSP client installation completed successfully"
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| 00:17 | <vagrantc> that's more what i'm used to.
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| 00:21 | <astroboy> WS01 is searching for server (DHCP) .. so I have to get dhcpd.conf right ...
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| 00:39 | <vagrantc> astroboy: example should be in /usr/share/doc/ltsp-server/examples
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| 00:41 | astroboy: that example should handle both etherboot and PXE
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| 00:41 | * vagrantc sleeps | |
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| 00:42 | <astroboy> I've used it as a template for eth1 but I'm not sure about eth0 ..
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| 00:51 | <ltsppbot> "astroboy" pasted "/etc/dhcp3/dhcpd.conf .. for ltsp5" (25 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/7
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| 00:52 | <astroboy> Anyone care to comment ?
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| 03:56 | <nsar> hello
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| 04:04 | how can i download the latest version of ltsp? i look in the site but the download section is confusing me
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| 04:13 | <uwe> nsar, do you want to install muekow ltsp (ltsp5)? if yes, i havent tried installing it yet, but apparently its still distro dependent
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| 04:13 | what distro are you using?
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| 04:13 | i know it works on debian etch
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| 04:14 | <nsar> fedora core
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| 04:15 | 6
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| 04:15 | you mean is not yet ready to use it?
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| 04:16 | <uwe> um, i dont see any straight forward for installing it on fedora, i suppose you can use the tool supplied by ltsp (ltsp utilities) and itll get pretty up-to-date packs
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| 04:17 | <nsar> ok thanks
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| 04:17 | <uwe> nsar, its not that, its that the "new" way of installing ltsp is slightly diffrent, and needs efforts from the distro side
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| 04:17 | <nsar> i see
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| 04:18 | <uwe> and the maturity of it will depend on the maturity of the host OS/distro ... i think
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| 04:18 | <bip> it is very well supporete d by debian and ubuntu
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| 04:18 | <nsar> i am comming back just a moment
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| 04:18 | <bip> i think suse and fedora r slightly behind right now
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| 04:19 | <uwe> shows how good/bad rpm package management is
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| 04:19 | shows how good/bad rpm/deb package management is
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| 04:20 | <bip> or how lil interest eexist in ltsp from big players maybe
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| 04:20 | or how that just play wait and see ...
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| 04:20 | and leverage solutions developed by somebody else ;-)
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| 04:20 | <uwe> em, heh... i think nsar needed this -> http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/MueKow#Fedora_Core_3_Testing
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| 04:21 | <bip> he might
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| 04:21 | r just google for fedora ltsp
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| 04:21 | <uwe> he wanted the "latest"
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| 04:21 | <bip> maybe somebody tried it with a more redcent distro
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| 04:21 | yup well i sorta have the same problem
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| 04:22 | i wanna doo a test install with latest suse ...
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| 04:22 | but i have found only one howto and it isn t very clear ...
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| 04:23 | http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/17942.html
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| 04:25 | <uwe> i have a strong feeling that the packages provided in the classical way are just as new as those in mue
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| 04:25 | i mean the init scripts and such stuff
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| 04:26 | <bip> that howto isn t about muekow
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| 04:26 | it stil using 4.x
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| 04:26 | s
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| 04:27 | <uwe> well, i was trying to say that 4.x and mue are using the same stuff when it comes to the contribution of ltsp
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| 04:27 | the diffrence is what the distro ships for stuff that is common between ltsp and a normal distro
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| 04:28 | im not sure not authentic
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| 04:28 | nor*
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| 04:30 | <bip> welll ltsp integartion into distros is still lacking imho
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| 04:30 | fo example i really like what debian and ubuntu r doing but they both lack something
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| 04:31 | for exampple i really like the possibility of picking LTSP as option if i install from a xubuntu edgy alternate cd that s almot pug and play
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| 04:32 | but ubutu support fro fat diskless option is still lacking
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| 04:32 | and ldap/AD integration too
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| 04:45 | <uwe> yay ... that would be great
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| 04:53 | <bip> novell has some great AD integration tools ...
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| 04:53 | and now that they r becomin partner with ms they will get even better at that
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| 06:34 | <cliebow_> moquist: have you migrated ldap to feisty? mine seems balky..as in doesnt work..
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| 07:09 | <moquist> cliebow_: nope. we're running it on Dapper and Edgy.
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| 07:16 | <cliebow> moquist, they add a ppolicy.schema amongst other things..i dont see any errors to speak of..i dont see my database either..
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| 07:17 | <cliebow> i frigged around for quite a while yesterday..
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| 08:09 | <jammcq> ogra: ping
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| 08:10 | <jammcq> Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| 08:10 | <sbalneav> Morning!
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| 08:10 | Snausages
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| 08:10 | !seen ogra
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| 08:10 | <ltspbot> sbalneav: ogra was last seen in #ltsp 22 hours, 51 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <ogra> right
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| 08:14 | <bronze> 42
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| 09:19 | <jammcq> ogra: ping
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| 09:46 | <latif> hello can u help me regarding dhcp?
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| 09:47 | i am used mandrake 8.2
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| 09:47 | install but the dhcp its problem
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| 09:47 | only dhcp?
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| 09:55 | <ltsppbot> "latif" pasted "dhcp probelm" (96 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/8
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| 09:55 | <sbalneav> latif: WHat problem are you having?
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| 09:56 | <latif> dhcp?
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| 09:56 | i am using mandrake 8.2
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| 09:56 | <sbalneav> yeah, but WHAT
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| 09:56 | <latif> the prob only dhcp
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| 09:56 | <sbalneav> Does it start? Does it give an error? etc.
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| 09:56 | You have to tell us what's WRONG
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| 09:57 | <latif> everting its ok...only part of DHCP yes....yes...no?
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| 09:57 | i need to know
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| 09:57 | <sbalneav> No
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| 09:57 | You need to know what>
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| 09:57 | ?
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| 09:57 | <latif> mandrake have the kernel....and ltsp also have the kernel?...
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| 09:57 | <sbalneav> Do you get an error when you start dhcp?
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| 09:57 | <latif> which kernel i need 2 used
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| 09:58 | <sbalneav> Which version of LTSP are you using?
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| 09:58 | <latif> yes get erorrr only dhcp part only
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| 09:58 | 3.0
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| 09:58 | <sbalneav> What error do you get?
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| 09:59 | <latif> went i cek dhcp start no problem
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| 09:59 | all ok only
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| 09:59 | <latif> went run ltspadmin dhcp not running
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| 09:59 | <KeepWalking_> buen dia
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| 10:00 | i cant get gdm working, its like remote login its not enable...
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| 10:00 | <jammcq> KeepWalking_: bom dia
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| 10:00 | <sbalneav> latif: check and see if it's running with ps
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| 10:01 | <KeepWalking_> jammcq, can you help me about gdm please?
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| 10:01 | <latif> if u thing i must do the grub before run back dhcp?
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| 10:01 | <jammcq> umm, maybe
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| 10:01 | <KeepWalking_> jammcq i get X working
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| 10:01 | bu gdm never load
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| 10:01 | <sbalneav> latif: First, check and see if gdm is running.
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| 10:02 | err dhcpd
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| 10:02 | <latif> ok
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| 10:02 | tq
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| 10:02 | <jammcq> KeepWalking_: have you followed this document: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Troubleshooting-GrayScreen
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| 10:02 | <KeepWalking_> letme see
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| 10:26 | <KeepWalking> jammcq
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| 10:27 | i have already checked all, but everything looks ok
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| 10:27 | only
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| 10:27 | that i get in ltspcfg
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| 10:27 | gdm installed, configured, but no running using gdm
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| 10:27 | and i have gdm running
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| 10:27 | im seeing on server
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| 10:28 | <cliebow_> KeepWalking, can you..Balls!
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| 10:28 | <KeepWalking> cliebow_ what?
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| 10:29 | <cliebow_> Oh there you are
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| 10:29 | netstat -anp|grep ":177"
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| 10:29 | is it listening?
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| 10:29 | <KeepWalking> no, it isnt
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| 10:30 | <cliebow_> cant trust ltspcfg for xdmcp
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| 10:30 | what distro?
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| 10:30 | <KeepWalking> cliebow_ oh ok
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| 10:30 | cliebow_ edubuntu
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| 10:30 | <cliebow_> there is a gconf-editor wherer you can turn it on
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| 10:31 | <KeepWalking> cliebow_ ok, let me see please
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| 10:31 | <cliebow_> balls i cant find it either
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| 10:33 | be sure in gdm.conf enable=true and port=177commented are un
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| 10:34 | <KeepWalking> yes
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| 10:34 | its ok
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| 10:34 | but
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| 10:34 | nothing on port 177
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| 10:34 | <cliebow_> was it ok already?
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| 10:34 | cause if you just did it you need to restart gdm
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| 10:34 | <KeepWalking> in gdm.conf enable is true and port is 177
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| 10:34 | yes, i have
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| 10:35 | <cliebow_> just now uncommented?
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| 10:35 | <KeepWalking> uncomented, and restarted gdm
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| 10:35 | <cliebow_> but not listening?
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| 10:35 | <KeepWalking> i do netstat | grep 177
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| 10:35 | and nothing
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| 10:36 | <cliebow_> hang a sec
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| 10:36 | <KeepWalking> sure
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| 10:39 | <cliebow_> in redhat there is a line in Xsession that needs uncommented..like * #any client can get a login
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| 10:41 | i yes..sudo gdmsetup should have a remote tab..
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| 10:42 | choose how you want remote to look
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| 10:42 | ......drum rolll..............
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| 10:57 | <sbalneav> mistik1: ping
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| 11:05 | <cliebow_> KeepWalking, what happened??
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| 13:45 | <nsar> hello
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| 13:47 | inside the Xorg command is included a parameter -nolisten tcp that for this reason last time i had tried to install ltsp that was my big headache in which file is that parameter to remove it?, i am using fedora core 6
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| 15:12 | <nick125_lappy> afternoon ltspers
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| 17:27 | <jammcq> hey, anybody have access to a Fedora core 6 box ?
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| 17:27 | I just need to know if the 'tempfile' command exists on fc6
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| 17:55 | <spackle> I thought xdpyinfo named the X server in use
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| 17:59 | <sbalneav> Which, you mean what driver's being used?
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| 17:59 | <spackle> yes
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| 17:59 | like s3 or svga
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| 17:59 | <sbalneav> No, it doesn't as far as I know. It shouldn't care.
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| 18:00 | <jammcq> well, technically speaking, xdpyinfo doesn't care about anything. it's the user who's running xdpyinfo who cares, and generally, they'd prolly like to know the name of the driver
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| 18:01 | <spackle> is checking the x configuration file in a terminal the only way to know then - unless you catch it on startup
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| 18:01 | <sbalneav> No, the user doesn't care either. The ADMINISTRATOR's the only one who cares :)
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| 18:01 | <jammcq> the "PERSON" running xdpyinfo is the USER of xdpyinfo
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| 18:01 | call him an "ADMINISTRATOR" if you want to
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| 18:01 | <sbalneav> :)
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| 18:04 | * spackle rolls eyes | |
| 18:04 | <sbalneav> spackle: I guess the 50 dollar question of the day is, why do you need to know? Are you trying to debug a problem. Contextless questions will get you silly answers :)
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| 18:05 | <spackle> oops, sorry, I know the chip in the term is an S3, but the detection is set to auto, and I want to know if there is a btter choice
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| 18:07 | <sbalneav> Well, the only two s3 choices I know of are either s3 or s3virge
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| 18:07 | <spackle> well, framebuffer is another choice
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| 18:08 | <sbalneav> I'd expect you'll probably want to avoid that one. You'll get little or no accel that way. Not that there's a ton of accel in s3 anyway.
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| 18:08 | <spackle> ;)
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| 18:08 | <sbalneav> could always try vesa as well.
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| 18:08 | <spackle> is there any way to get sound from JAVA apps on a client?
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| 18:09 | where app != running *on* client
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| 18:10 | <sbalneav> yeah. Grab Sun, slap 'em around a little bit, and tell 'em to quit writing to /dev/dsp and use a real audio stack. I suppose now that java's been free'd, the community should look at it.
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| 18:11 | Java's currently a problem.
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| 18:11 | <spackle> those Ba******
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| 18:11 | K, just wanted to be sure there wasn't an ingenious workaround
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| 18:12 | <sbalneav> Now, with the new stuff that ogra's done with pulseaudio, and faking out an alsa device, it MAY work better on Ubuntu feisty
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| 18:13 | but ultimately, the way to make network audio work SEAMLESSLY everywhere, is to fix anything that still writes to /dev/dsp, and convert it to use gstreamer.
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| 18:13 | kde's moving to gstreamer, and anything that currently uses gstreamer works flawlessly.
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| 18:13 | So, totem plays movies fine, etc.
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| 18:14 | <spackle> excellent. Is that in the latest edubuntu - edgy I think
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| 18:14 | ?
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| 18:14 | <sbalneav> no, edgy's the current
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| 18:14 | feisty's the next one.
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| 18:14 | that's in beta now.
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| 18:14 | <spackle> 6.10
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| 18:14 | or later?
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| 18:14 | <sbalneav> 7.04
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| 18:14 | <spackle> OK.
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| 18:15 | thanks sbalneav
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| 18:15 | <sbalneav> NP
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| 18:15 | <spackle> I'm off to make the donuts.... later
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| 18:15 | <jammcq> mmmm, donuts
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| 18:15 | <mistik1> hey guys
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| 18:16 | <jammcq> hey mistik1
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| 18:17 | <mistik1> hola ogra
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| 18:17 | <sbalneav> ogra!!
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| 18:17 | hey mistik1
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| 18:18 | <mistik1> hey sbalneav
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| 18:18 | <jammcq> mistik1: remember in Maine at BTS, we whipped up a command to do a commandline paste to the pastebot ?
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| 18:18 | <mistik1> yea
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| 18:18 | <jammcq> any chance you have it?
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| 18:18 | <mistik1> nope, lost in the shuffle
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| 18:19 | <jammcq> any chance you remember what we called it?
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| 18:19 | I may still have it
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| 18:19 | <mistik1> nopaste maybe
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| 18:19 | hmm
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| 18:20 | Its easy to reproduce with www-perl though
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| 18:22 | <mistik1> jammcq: found a ruby one,sec
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| 18:23 | <jammcq> ahh,,, paste2ltsp
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| 18:23 | <mistik1> hehe
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| 18:23 | that may be what you named it ;)
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| 18:23 | <jammcq> there's a file in an old backup called that
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| 18:23 | <mistik1> prolly it
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| 18:24 | or a first draft
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| 18:25 | <ltsppbot> "jam" pasted "STDIN: #!/usr/bin/perl -w ..." (252 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/9
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| 18:26 | <jammcq> :)
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| 18:26 | I used paste2ltsp to paste "paste2ltsp" to the LTSP pastebot
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| 18:28 | <mistik1> hehe
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| 18:28 | cool
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| 18:28 | <ltsppbot> "jam" pasted "STDIN: #!/usr/bin/perl -w ..." (253 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/10
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| 18:29 | <mistik1> jammcq: that's the latest one alright
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| 18:29 | Thanks
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| 18:29 | <jammcq> it's got a slight problem
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| 18:29 | <mistik1> what's that?
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| 18:29 | <jammcq> it's not parsing the result correctly. it says 'your paste was Terribly unsuccessful'
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| 18:29 | when, indeed, it succeeded
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| 18:30 | <mistik1> ok
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| 18:30 | You have the source Luke
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| 18:30 | <jammcq> yep, and the will
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| 18:32 | <ltsppbot> "jam" pasted "STDIN: #!/usr/bin/perl -w ..." (257 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/11
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| 18:34 | "jam" pasted "STDIN: this is a test ..." (1 line) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/12
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| 18:35 | "jam" pasted "STDIN: this is a test ..." (1 line) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/13
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| 18:36 | "jam" pasted "STDIN: this is a test ..." (1 line) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/14
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| 18:42 | "root" pasted "STDIN: this is a test ..." (1 line) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/15
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| 18:42 | <jammcq> mistik1: all fixed. pardon my flooding :)
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| 18:43 | <robbie> mornings
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| 18:43 | <mistik1> okie dokie
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| 18:43 | <jammcq> robbie: hey robbie
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| 18:43 | how ya doing?
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| 18:43 | <mistik1> send me a copy
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| 18:44 | <jammcq> sure
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| 18:44 | where?
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| 18:44 | <mistik1> just paste it ;)
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| 18:44 | I bet I know what it was though
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| 18:44 | <jammcq> k, coming right up
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| 18:45 | before I post it, tell me what you think it was
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| 18:45 | <mistik1> the url string return is not longer .../paste
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| 18:45 | <ltsppbot> "root" pasted "STDIN: #!/usr/bin/perl -w ..." (251 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/17
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| 18:45 | <jammcq> well, it doesn't have the port number in the url anymore
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| 18:45 | AND, it doesn't have "/paste'
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| 18:45 | <mistik1> noted that also
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| 18:46 | <jammcq> either of those broke it
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| 18:46 | <mistik1> thanks mod_proxy ;)
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| 18:46 | <jammcq> anyway, the latest is on the pastebot, #17
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| 18:46 | ah
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| 18:46 | mod_proxy took out our /paste ?
| |
| 18:46 | <mistik1> I think so
| |
| 18:46 | also the port
| |
| 18:46 | <jammcq> well, the port is now :80, so it's not needed
| |
| 18:47 | <mistik1> yea
| |
| 18:47 | <jammcq> the code can still handle :port, but it's not looking for /paste
| |
| 18:47 | <mistik1> right
| |
| 18:49 | is the source not wonderfull
| |
| 18:51 | <jammcq> like socks in a box
| |
| 19:23 | <robbie> hi guys
| |
| 19:24 | you guys getting those storms ?
| |
| 19:24 | <jammcq> not so much
| |
| 19:24 | had horrible weather on thursdya
| |
| 19:24 | cliebow has joined #ltsp | |
| 19:25 | <sbalneav> Hey robbie!
| |
| 19:26 | How's the kids?
| |
| 19:26 | <robbie> hi scotty
| |
| 19:26 | we now have 1.93
| |
| 19:26 | <sbalneav> :)
| |
| 19:26 | <jammcq> what's the due date?
| |
| 19:26 | <robbie> 19 days till "Number 2" arrives :)
| |
| 19:26 | 23rd
| |
| 19:26 | <sbalneav> Got any photos? I enjoyed your last photo album from a year ago.
| |
| 19:26 | <robbie> heh, one sec
| |
| 19:27 | my dsl is rate limited at the moment so it may be slow
| |
| 19:27 | http://rotapile.ods.org/gallery/0702/IMGP3428.JPG
| |
| 19:27 | an di took him sand toboganing
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| 19:27 | http://rotapile.ods.org/gallery/0701/IMGP3404.JPG
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| 19:28 | <sbalneav> Cute!
| |
| 19:28 | <robbie> http://rotapile.ods.org/gallery/0701/IMGP3413.JPG
| |
| 19:28 | day out with sister and friends
| |
| 19:28 | and nephew and niece
| |
| 19:29 | sbalneav: actualy, I have a photo that a man from a snowy country would appreciate :)
| |
| 19:29 | <jammcq> great pics
| |
| 19:29 | <sbalneav> tsk tsk. EVERYONE's gotta be wearing a life jacket.
| |
| 19:29 | <robbie> just kids
| |
| 19:29 | lots of power boats near there
| |
| 19:29 | and water is silty, babies sink
| |
| 19:30 | http://rotapile.ods.org/gallery/0610-tasmania/0610%20042.jpg
| |
| 19:30 | <sbalneav> LOL
| |
| 19:30 | Nice aim :)
| |
| 19:31 | <robbie> my friend said it was great penismanship
| |
| 19:32 | my old man has built model a steam railway
| |
| 19:32 | http://rotapile.ods.org/gallery/0701/038.jpg
| |
| 19:33 | i love working on windows 2000 servers
| |
| 19:33 | <sbalneav> Wow! Electric?
| |
| 19:33 | what voltage?
| |
| 19:33 | <robbie> 2 ide drives on same bus set up with software mirrored dyanmic disks
| |
| 19:34 | sbalneav: all steam except for that particular one which is 4hp petrol/hydraulic
| |
| 19:34 | <sbalneav> Steam! Make his own engine from scratch?
| |
| 19:34 | <robbie> bought engines
| |
| 19:34 | <sbalneav> cool
| |
| 19:35 | <robbie> built 650m track
| |
| 19:35 | heh
| |
| 19:35 | very popular with kids in street
| |
| 19:35 | <sbalneav> I can imagine
| |
| 19:37 | <robbie> if you can handlye the slow load there are quite a few photos of the construction etc here
| |
| 19:37 | http://rotapile.ods.org/gallery/0608-mumdad/
| |
| 19:38 | http://rotapile.ods.org/gallery/0608-mumdad/100_0276.JPG
| |
| 19:38 | thats one of the steam engines
| |
| 19:39 | <sbalneav> Who's telescope?
| |
| 19:39 | <robbie> mine
| |
| 19:41 | <sbalneav> nice
| |
| 19:41 | Schmidt-Cass?
| |
| 19:41 | <robbie> i believe so
| |
| 19:41 | that is where we got it from, the dome is still to arrive
| |
| 19:42 | and the telescope is stil packed up in the shed
| |
| 19:42 | its a 25 year old meade
| |
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| 20:03 | <cliebow_> anyone using 2.6.20 for a kernel?
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| 20:06 | daniQ has quit IRC | |
| 20:32 | cliebow has joined #ltsp | |
| 20:34 | bronze has quit IRC | |
| 20:34 | bronze has joined #ltsp | |
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| 21:07 | ramsys has joined #ltsp | |
| 21:08 | spectra has quit IRC | |
| 21:11 | <ramsys> how do i copy all comments from channel to my local disk
| |
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| 21:26 | vagrantc has joined #ltsp | |
| 21:42 | Bhaskar has joined #ltsp | |
| 21:48 | <jammcq> vagrantc: hey
| |
| 21:48 | <vagrantc> jammcq: hi
| |
| 21:50 | <jammcq> vagrantc: I built an etch machine, and loaded up ltsp-5 in it
| |
| 21:50 | found a few little "issues"
| |
| 21:50 | <vagrantc> please share your issues and i will address them to the best of my ability :)
| |
| 21:51 | <jammcq> ISC changed how next-server works. the Ubuntu guys patched around it
| |
| 21:51 | apparently, Debian hasn't patched around it.
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| 21:51 | otavio has joined #ltsp | |
| 21:51 | <otavio> Hi :-)
| |
| 21:52 | <jammcq> otavio: HEY
| |
| 21:52 | <vagrantc> otavio: welcome back, long time no see :)
| |
| 21:52 | <otavio> jammcq: :-)
| |
| 21:52 | <jammcq> wow, long time, no see
| |
| 21:52 | <otavio> vagrantc: yes. :-)
| |
| 21:52 | busy life ;-)
| |
| 21:52 | I've been away from LTSP hacking lately
| |
| 21:52 | <jammcq> yes, we've missed you
| |
| 21:52 | <otavio> I hope I can come back in few weeks ;-)
| |
| 21:52 | jammcq: thank you :-)
| |
| 21:52 | <vagrantc> jammcq: i haven't run into that problem myself yet ...
| |
| 21:52 | <jammcq> cool. we've been pushing forward, having fun
| |
| 21:53 | <otavio> jammcq: how is ltsp5 going?
| |
| 21:53 | <jammcq> vagrantc: the easy fix is to add 'next-server 192.168.0.1;' to dhcpd.conf
| |
| 21:53 | but it's not there by default
| |
| 21:53 | <vagrantc> jammcq: ah! i'm mostly using "dnsmasq" instead of ISC's dhcpd
| |
| 21:53 | <jammcq> vagrantc: also, ubuntu and debian both drop their dhcpd.conf files into /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf
| |
| 21:53 | <vagrantc> jammcq: and that's bad?
| |
| 21:53 | <jammcq> BUT, debian's dhcpd startup script doesn't look there for the config file
| |
| 21:54 | it only looks in /etc/dhcp3/dhcpd.conf
| |
| 21:54 | <vagrantc> jammcq: it's meant to be added as an include line
| |
| 21:54 | <jammcq> ah
| |
| 21:54 | is that supposed to happen automatically? or is it documented that a manual thing needs to be done?
| |
| 21:54 | <vagrantc> because, i am not confident that i will be able to perfectly script an automagic configuration of the DHCP server ...
| |
| 21:54 | should be documented in a manual, yes.
| |
| 21:55 | <jammcq> agreed, dhcpd.conf is a big ugly beast
| |
| 21:55 | "should be" == "still needs to be done" ?
| |
| 21:55 | <vagrantc> jammcq: if you don't see it in /usr/share/ltsp-server/* ... yes, it still needs to be done.
| |
| 21:55 | <jammcq> or is there a manual that i've just not found yet
| |
| 21:55 | ok, gotcha
| |
| 21:56 | believe me, i'm not criticizing anything here. the work is fantastic
| |
| 21:56 | <Bhaskar> hello everybody, i want to integrate LTSP12 in my linux debian based, how?
| |
| 21:56 | <jammcq> hmm, ltsp-12 ?
| |
| 21:56 | * vagrantc suspects it still needs to be done | |
| 21:56 | <jammcq> we're just getting ltsp-5 off the ground
| |
| 21:56 | <vagrantc> jammcq: i'm not taking it as criticism so much as reminders of things i've been putting off :)
| |
| 21:56 | <jammcq> yeah, cool
| |
| 21:56 | cuz it's all pretty sweet stuff
| |
| 21:56 | <vagrantc> !integration
| |
| 21:56 | <ltspbot> vagrantc: "integration" is http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/IntegratingLtsp
| |
| 21:57 | <vagrantc> Bhaskar: that was for you
| |
| 21:57 | * vagrantc heart ltspbot | |
| 21:57 | <Bhaskar> vagrantc, we develope Nepalinux, we want to integrate
| |
| 21:57 | * vagrantc fires up X | |
| 21:58 | <vagrantc> Bhaskar: yes, well, read that wiki page and start asking questions :)
| |
| 21:58 | <jammcq> vagrantc: there's an issue with both Ubuntu and Debian's NFS. when you restart nfs, or run 'exportfs -ra', after adding the entries, it complains about not having a 'subtree_check' or 'no_subtree_check' option
| |
| 21:59 | <vagrantc> jammcq: yeah... i guess we just have to learn which we want for LTSP and add it into our /etc/exports line(s)
| |
| 22:00 | <jammcq> yep
| |
| 22:01 | i've got tarballs of both the etch-ltsp and feisty-ltsp ready to put on our website.
| |
| 22:01 | <otavio> jammcq: great news. What's still missing for it?
| |
| 22:01 | <mistik1> otavio: hey man, long time
| |
| 22:01 | <vagrantc> jammcq: should probably call it an etch-prerelease or something, as etch will be different tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day, etc.
| |
| 22:02 | <otavio> mistik1: yes, indeed ;-)
| |
| 22:02 | <jammcq> just a few scripts, to ease the installation on any system you want
| |
| 22:02 | vagrantc: true enough
| |
| 22:02 | <otavio> jammcq: ah great
| |
| 22:02 | <vagrantc> i thought ogra already wrote some scripts to do that downloading stuff ...
| |
| 22:02 | <otavio> mistik1: how are you doing?
| |
| 22:03 | <mistik1> otavio: I'm doing well now, was not for a few months there
| |
| 22:03 | Had some major turbulance in my life
| |
| 22:03 | <otavio> mistik1: neither I. I've been busy working at work project
| |
| 22:03 | mistik1: what happened?
| |
| 22:03 | <vagrantc> jammcq: are you configuring it such that you can install it to /opt/ltsp/debian-etch-i386 /opt/ltsp/ubuntu-feisty-i386
| |
| 22:04 | jammcq: so someone could easily choose between the different distros ?
| |
| 22:04 | <mistik1> otavio: in a nut-shell separation, divorce, custody, support
| |
| 22:04 | <otavio> mistik1: uh!
| |
| 22:04 | <mistik1> yea
| |
| 22:04 | <otavio> mistik1: life sometimes is hard
| |
| 22:04 | mistik1: i hope you're fine
| |
| 22:05 | <mistik1> I'm good now, thanks ;)
| |
| 22:05 | <jammcq> vagrantc: I was just thinking of /opt/ltsp/i386, and let them move them around, but you've got a great idea there
| |
| 22:05 | <otavio> mistik1: that's indeed the way to deal with that kind of problems. Pushing forward :-)
| |
| 22:05 | <vagrantc> jammcq: might be good to craft the tarballs so that it makes that easier ...
| |
| 22:05 | <mistik1> otavio: furthermore i'm ready to hack once more
| |
| 22:05 | <otavio> jammcq: yes. I think that have them available for user's choice would be great.
| |
| 22:06 | <vagrantc> mistik1 already wrote some scripts to test ltsp in qemu, if i recall...
| |
| 22:06 | <otavio> mistik1: aha!
| |
| 22:06 | mistik1: would be good if you could come back to work on the Gentoo stuff. Have you done something about it since last time we talked?
| |
| 22:06 | <mistik1> vagrantc: It was not written specificly with ltsp in mind but modification would be trivial
| |
| 22:07 | <vagrantc> mistik1: i wear ltsp-colored glasses, i guess.
| |
| 22:07 | <mistik1> hehehe
| |
| 22:07 | <otavio> hehe
| |
| 22:07 | * vagrantc wonders what the official colour of ltsp is | |
| 22:07 | <otavio> hahhaa
| |
| 22:08 | <sbalneav> Puce.
| |
| 22:08 | <mistik1> otavio: I am doing EVERYTHING in Gentoo these days
| |
| 22:08 | <otavio> mistik1: please, explain
| |
| 22:08 | * mistik1 has ~10 chroots all over his disk | |
| 22:08 | <jammcq> Puce or Puke ?
| |
| 22:08 | <sbalneav> Hex triplet #CC8899
| |
| 22:08 | <otavio> mistik1: but have you included the ltsp support for it?
| |
| 22:08 | mistik1: the scripts and like?
| |
| 22:09 | <mistik1> I started working on the initscripts so far
| |
| 22:09 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: you're even here this evening... this is a fun friday.
| |
| 22:09 | <otavio> mistik1: but hadn't yet looked at the plugin system?
| |
| 22:09 | <mistik1> dberkholz did some layout of how it would work
| |
| 22:09 | <sbalneav> :)
| |
| 22:09 | * otavio my gf is calling me. 2min | |
| 22:10 | <mistik1> otavio: Yes in fact the Gentoo plugin will be rather easy with emerge
| |
| 22:10 | <vagrantc> mistik1: don't forget i've been planning on making the init scripts into plugins too :)
| |
| 22:10 | mistik1: in fact, i already have a branch for that
| |
| 22:10 | <mistik1> explain
| |
| 22:11 | <vagrantc> mistik1: splitting the init scripts into smaller pieces that get sourced on boot ...
| |
| 22:11 | mistik1: rather than a single monolithic script
| |
| 22:11 | <jammcq> vagrantc: scotty and I are both in Toronto right now
| |
| 22:11 | * otavio is back | |
| 22:11 | <mistik1> vagrantc: That would be welcome I think
| |
| 22:11 | <vagrantc> mistik1: which makes it easier to ignore distro-specific code
| |
| 22:12 | mistik1: i know, that's why i wrote it :)
| |
| 22:12 | <otavio> vagrantc: compating with the code we've written at debconf, how different ltsp5 is from it?
| |
| 22:12 | <vagrantc> jammcq: ah, toronto. i gazed for a fair number of hours at toronto, if i remember correctly
| |
| 22:12 | otavio: same thing
| |
| 22:13 | otavio: i mean, a few small changes, but basically the same thing.
| |
| 22:13 | <otavio> vagrantc: oh great :-)
| |
| 22:13 | vagrantc: yes yes, I gotcha it
| |
| 22:13 | vagrantc: will you atendee to debconf7?
| |
| 22:13 | <vagrantc> otavio: i basically split the init scripts up in a similar way ...
| |
| 22:13 | <otavio> vagrantc: good
| |
| 22:13 | <vagrantc> otavio: if i can get sponsorship
| |
| 22:14 | otavio: well, i started splitting them up. it was too late for etch.
| |
| 22:14 | <otavio> vagrantc: would be great. I'll bring some nice stuff to show to you ;-)
| |
| 22:14 | <mistik1> You guys are moving very fast with all this, sometimes I swear my head is spinning
| |
| 22:14 | <otavio> mistik1: hahaha
| |
| 22:14 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: when you're done with everyone else, I've got a debian policy question to ask you.
| |
| 22:14 | <otavio> vagrantc: we're finishing the company's product
| |
| 22:14 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: have you read the topic? :P
| |
| 22:15 | sbalneav: please, ask :)
| |
| 22:15 | <jammcq> otavio: where is debconf7 this year?
| |
| 22:15 | <sbalneav> I wasn't asking to ask the question, I just didn't want you to have too many threads of execution at the same time. :) But ok....
| |
| 22:15 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: oh, you totally got to merge my ltspfs branch into upstream. it's like, waaaay cool. :)
| |
| 22:15 | <otavio> jammcq: Edinburgh
| |
| 22:15 | <jammcq> ah
| |
| 22:15 | <sbalneav> Oh?
| |
| 22:15 | <otavio> jammcq: probably miss spelled
| |
| 22:15 | <sbalneav> What's new with it?
| |
| 22:16 | <otavio> jammcq: will you go?
| |
| 22:16 | jammcq: if yes, we can talk more :-)
| |
| 22:16 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: oh, it's nothing special really, just some patches i want that make it easier to work with debian :)
| |
| 22:16 | <jammcq> otavio: close enough for me to know what you are talking about
| |
| 22:16 | when is debconf ?
| |
| 22:16 | <otavio> jammcq: June
| |
| 22:16 | jammcq: hold
| |
| 22:16 | <sbalneav> sure, I got no problem with that, wait 'till you hear what I've got planned...
| |
| 22:16 | <jammcq> hmm, i'm already doing too much travelling this year
| |
| 22:16 | <sbalneav> here's the situation:
| |
| 22:16 | <otavio> Sunday 17 to Saturday 23 June 2007
| |
| 22:16 | <sbalneav> Right now, server side, we need to support 3 things...
| |
| 22:17 | <jammcq> and it looks like June 21-27th I'll be travelling
| |
| 22:17 | <vagrantc> there's also debcamp the week before
| |
| 22:17 | <otavio> vagrantc: will you want to stay all over night awake with me?
| |
| 22:17 | <vagrantc> where you actually do real work
| |
| 22:17 | <sbalneav> 1) ltspfs itself, 2) ltspfsmounter, the wrapper script, and lbmount, that makes the links in /media.
| |
| 22:17 | <vagrantc> otavio: heh.
| |
| 22:17 | sbalneav: yeah, it's messy.
| |
| 22:17 | <otavio> vagrantc: do you remember how much we've done of work... right? You called me crazy ... three times?
| |
| 22:17 | vagrantc: four? hehehe
| |
| 22:17 | * vagrantc suspects more | |
| 22:18 | <sbalneav> Problem is, trying to make an upstream ltsp, to be loaded on multiple distros/arch's etc. is a pain for binaries...
| |
| 22:18 | <otavio> hhaha
| |
| 22:18 | <sbalneav> so, I'm thinking this:
| |
| 22:18 | <vagrantc> otavio: when the colour was missing from your face, i really started to wonder :P
| |
| 22:18 | otavio: and our talk was sooooo awful :P
| |
| 22:18 | <otavio> vagrantc: some time ago I was talking with Daniel (debian-live guy) and he said: Oh! Now I see why Vagrant said you don't sleep heheeh
| |
| 22:18 | <sbalneav> 1) re-implement ltspfs in python. This is a breeze, I've written fuse filesystems in python with the python-fuse bindings, shouldn't be a problem.
| |
| 22:19 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: i see the ram requirements skyrocketing
| |
| 22:19 | but the maintainability probably improving
| |
| 22:19 | <sbalneav> 2) re-implement lbmount as python/shell something, since it's really just a sanity wrapper
| |
| 22:19 | for mount --bind.
| |
| 22:20 | Probably a bit, but not too much, i'd expect.
| |
| 22:20 | <vagrantc> we don't even use lbmount in debian/ubuntu, do we?
| |
| 22:20 | <sbalneav> Well, how do you make icons pop up on the desktop?
| |
| 22:20 | <vagrantc> actually, we do. i was thinking of something else.
| |
| 22:21 | <sbalneav> ok
| |
| 22:21 | <otavio> hhe
| |
| 22:21 | <sbalneav> so, here's the issue.
| |
| 22:21 | * otavio waiting git to sync | |
| 22:21 | <otavio> vagrantc: I just finished the package checking. All ok to me.
| |
| 22:21 | <sbalneav> reimplementing lbmount as a script's easy, it's already half done. The problem is, the setuid bit.
| |
| 22:21 | * vagrantc wants to move the ltspfs code in the ltsp-client and ldm packages to be moved into ltspfsd | |
| 22:22 | <vagrantc> otavio: surely theres something that could be done better :P
| |
| 22:22 | <sbalneav> now, I can get around THAT real easy, by doing some sudo magic.
| |
| 22:22 | <otavio> vagrantc: yes, but nothing grave
| |
| 22:22 | <vagrantc> otavio: like thwacking upstream with a big stick so we actually have an upstream :)
| |
| 22:22 | <otavio> vagrantc: hahahha
| |
| 22:22 | * vagrantc looks at jammcq and sbalneav | |
| 22:22 | <otavio> vagrantc: yes. This is important
| |
| 22:23 | * otavio looks at them, too | |
| 22:23 | <sbalneav> What do you think we're WORKING on here??!? :)
| |
| 22:23 | <jammcq> vagrantc: hey buddy, that's one of our goals here this weekend
| |
| 22:23 | * vagrantc is giving a hard time or two | |
| 22:23 | <jammcq> although time is running short
| |
| 22:23 | <vagrantc> jammcq: you mean you weren't just hanging out in canada to be cool?
| |
| 22:24 | <otavio> haha
| |
| 22:24 | <mistik1> cool being the operative word
| |
| 22:24 | <sbalneav> here's the question: could a package modify the /etc/sudoers file, or is that a no-no in the debian packaging world.
| |
| 22:24 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: big no no
| |
| 22:24 | <otavio> sbalneav: no-no
| |
| 22:24 | <sbalneav> ok
| |
| 22:24 | <mistik1> huge no no here too
| |
| 22:24 | * vagrantc notes a +1 for gentoo | |
| 22:24 | <otavio> sbalneav: you cannot touch others configuration files
| |
| 22:24 | sbalneav: hold on
| |
| 22:25 | <mistik1> CONFIG_PROTECT=/etc
| |
| 22:25 | heh
| |
| 22:25 | <sbalneav> so, having yet another setuid binary on your system's NOT a problem, then? :)
| |
| 22:25 | <otavio> sbalneav: In this specific case you can. /etc/sudoers isn't part of any package.
| |
| 22:25 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: so... we need to run lbmount (or its future cousin) as root, because it's mounting filesystems?
| |
| 22:25 | otavio: not true!
| |
| 22:25 | <otavio> sbalneav: but usually you shouldn't do that.
| |
| 22:25 | <sbalneav> lbmount is setuid todat.
| |
| 22:25 | today.
| |
| 22:26 | <otavio> vagrantc: go check ;-)
| |
| 22:26 | otavio@neumann:~$ dpkg -S sudoers
| |
| 22:26 | sudo: /usr/share/man/man5/sudoers.5.gz
| |
| 22:26 | sudo: /usr/share/doc/sudo/examples/sudoers
| |
| 22:26 | <sbalneav> it has to be, because it has to do a mount --bind from /tmp/sbalneav-ltspfs.... to /media/sbalneav/....
| |
| 22:26 | <vagrantc> otavio: it's still not ok, at least, according to the release managers
| |
| 22:26 | <mistik1> hmm
| |
| 22:26 | otavio is right
| |
| 22:26 | <sbalneav> What if you have a COMMAND that modifies the file.
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| 22:27 | ?
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| 22:27 | <otavio> vagrantc: if you _ask_ the user it's ok
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| 22:27 | <mistik1> mistik1@firelinks ~ $ equery f /etc/sudoers
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| 22:27 | !!! The query '/etc/sudoers' does not appear to be a valid package specification
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| 22:27 | <ltspbot> mistik1: Error: "!!" is not a valid command.
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| 22:27 | <vagrantc> otavio: i don't think so.
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| 22:27 | <otavio> vagrantc: hehe
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| 22:27 | vagrantc: why not?
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| 22:27 | <vagrantc> otavio: not in maintainer scripts, anyways.
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| 22:27 | otavio: in programs the admin runs, sure.
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| 22:27 | <otavio> vagrantc: yes, you can. Iff you ask the user.
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| 22:28 | vagrantc: gforge does it
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| 22:28 | vagrantc: other packages does also
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| 22:28 | <jammcq> wasn't one of the goals of dbus to rid us of all this setuid crap?
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| 22:28 | applications ask dbus to do something for them
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| 22:28 | <sbalneav> What about ltsp-update-sudoers as a script?
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| 22:28 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: so ... the mounting is happening on the server, or on the thin client?
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| 22:28 | <mistik1> all that aside I dont believe a package modifying /etc/sudoers is a good idea
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| 22:28 | <sbalneav> server
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| 22:28 | <otavio> sbalneav: what you need to add on sudoers?
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| 22:29 | <vagrantc> otavio: essentially a wrapper around "mount"
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| 22:29 | <sbalneav> something like:
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| 22:29 | Cmnd_Alias LBMOUNT=/usr/share/ltsp/scripts/lbmount.py
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| 22:29 | %fuse ALL=NOPASSWD: LBMOUNT
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| 22:29 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: why can't we mount directly to /media/USER ?
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| 22:30 | <sbalneav> ls -al /media
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| 22:30 | drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 2007-03-03 12:44 .
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| 22:30 | how's a user gonna make a dir in there? :)
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| 22:30 | <otavio> sbalneav: but if it's suppose to be done for all users, sudo doesn't make sense. Just use setuid ;-)
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| 22:30 | <mistik1> will mount not still complain unless its defined in fstab with -ouser
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| 22:30 | <sbalneav> pmount normally does that.
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| 22:30 | <vagrantc> mistik1: if it's setuid, no. :)
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| 22:30 | <sbalneav> otavio: Then I'm maintaining a setuid binary program.
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| 22:31 | which needs to work on:
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| 22:31 | <mistik1> vagrantc: if its setuid there is no need for sudo
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| 22:31 | <otavio> sbalneav: well yes but it's igual of a global allowed command on sudo :P
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| 22:31 | <vagrantc> mistik1: yes, that's the current debate
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| 22:31 | <sbalneav> debian, ubuntu, fedora, slackware, mandrake, mepis, etc etc etc etc etc
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| 22:31 | <otavio> sbalneav: basically same side-effect
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| 22:31 | <jammcq> first rule: keep it simple
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| 22:31 | <vagrantc> otavio: actually, it's not a global, it's only allowed to users in the fuse group
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| 22:32 | is it bad to make it setuid = root, and only group = fuse executable ?
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| 22:32 | <otavio> vagrantc: virtually, every user on a LTSP server ;-)
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| 22:32 | <sbalneav> yeah, but handing out a script is distro-independent. Maintaining a binary's a pain.
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| 22:33 | <jammcq> somebody is whining :)
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| 22:33 | lemme call the Whambulance
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| 22:33 | <sbalneav> Fine, then I'll hand it off for you to do. :)
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| 22:33 | <mistik1> Why not just make the binary non-setuid and document the sudoers mods
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| 22:33 | <jammcq> it'll become a support problem
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| 22:34 | <mistik1> adding two lines to a file?
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| 22:34 | <otavio> mistik1: people usually do not read docs ;-)
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| 22:34 | <jammcq> yep
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| 22:34 | <otavio> mistik1: eheh
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| 22:34 | <mistik1> ugh!
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| 22:34 | <jammcq> they'll muck it up, and lock themselves out of their own system
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| 22:34 | <otavio> mistik1: boring human beans ;-)
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| 22:34 | <jammcq> and it'll be OUR fault
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| 22:34 | <vagrantc> messing with sudoers is tricky business.
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| 22:35 | <jammcq> setuid gets my vote
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| 22:35 | <vagrantc> not to say setuid is to be taken lightly, but its fairly simple to do it well programmatically
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| 22:35 | <otavio> sbalneav: as jammcq suggest, is too difficult to use d-bus to do this work?
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| 22:35 | <mistik1> we should have a disclaimer that LTSP should not be run by trained monkeys
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| 22:35 | <otavio> jammcq: mine too. hehe
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| 22:35 | <sbalneav> So, I still haven't had my question answered: if there's a program like ltsp-update-sudoers, and THAT updates the file, is that in keeping with the debian policy?
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| 22:35 | I have no idea about dbus.
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| 22:35 | <jammcq> ultimately, I think d-bus is supposed to be the answer, but i don't have a clue where to start with that
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| 22:35 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: as long as it's not called from the maintainer scripts, and the admin runs it manually.
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| 22:35 | <sbalneav> If someone wants to point me at a tutorial, I'm happy to look at it.
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| 22:36 | vagrantc: right, so like ltsp-update-sshkeys
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| 22:36 | <vagrantc> jammcq: does dbus work with things other than GNOME, or specific window managers?
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| 22:36 | <otavio> sbalneav: Debian Policy forbids any program to touch a conffile. A conffile, for Debian is something that is included in a package and in /etc.
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| 22:36 | <mistik1> sbalneav: http://dbus.freedesktop.org/doc/dbus-tutorial.html
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| 22:36 | <otavio> sbalneav: so you can change sudoers
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| 22:36 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: or ltsp-build-client
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| 22:36 | * jammcq thinks it works with kde too | |
| 22:36 | <jammcq> and prolly xfce
| |
| 22:36 | vagrantc: also, d-bus doesn't depend on the window manager
| |
| 22:36 | <sbalneav> mistik1: seen that one. Next to useless.
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| 22:37 | <jammcq> background processes can use it to communicate
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| 22:37 | <vagrantc> otavio: but youre also not allowed to edit "configuration files" of other packages, according to the etch_release_policy.txt
| |
| 22:38 | <otavio> vagrantc: yes
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| 22:38 | <vagrantc> "configuration files" being a broader category than "conffiles"
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| 22:38 | <jammcq> people are using d-bus, we're not treading on new ground here. I know for sure the Ubuntu guys would be willing to help. I know the Fedora guys would also help. as for Debian, I don't know who would be the person. it may very well be a Ubuntu guy
| |
| 22:38 | <otavio> vagrantc: but sudoers isn't part of any package
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| 22:38 | vagrantc: it's used by sudo but it's another part of history.
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| 22:39 | vagrantc: policy doesn't cover it
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| 22:39 | vagrantc: for policy what means if it's or not part of a package
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| 22:39 | <vagrantc> otavio: years ago, when this issue came up discussing lessdisks, steve langasek commented that it doesn't matter weather it's owned by another package, you can't mess with files that are not yours.
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| 22:39 | <otavio> vagrantc: but sudoers do not have an owner
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| 22:39 | vagrantc: dpkg -S proved it
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| 22:40 | <vagrantc> otavio: doesn't matter if it doesn't have an owner, the owner is certainly *not* ltsp
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| 22:40 | <otavio> vagrantc: well, that's right ... but if you does ask, you can mess with it
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| 22:40 | vagrantc: gforge mess with all over the system in that way
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| 22:41 | <vagrantc> otavio: in the postinst scripts?
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| 22:41 | <otavio> vagrantc: yes
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| 22:41 | <vagrantc> (or other maintainer scripts)
| |
| 22:41 | <otavio> vagrantc: both
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| 22:41 | vagrantc: but them are called on postinst
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| 22:41 | <sbalneav> so if we have a 'ltsp-update-sudoers' command, that notifies the user that it's about to touch the sudoers file, and allows them to back out, that's ok?
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| 22:42 | <otavio> sbalneav: yes
| |
| 22:42 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: ?
| |
| 22:42 | * sbalneav is looking for concensus :) | |
| 22:42 | <jammcq> -1
| |
| 22:43 | <otavio> sbalneav: but I still think that a setuid is a better solution for it right now
| |
| 22:43 | <vagrantc> i think so
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| 22:43 | <otavio> sbalneav: later, move to d-bus
| |
| 22:43 | * vagrantc agrees with otavio | |
| 22:43 | <sbalneav> jammcq: OK, so who's going to maintain setuid binaries for all the different archs?
| |
| 22:43 | and distros?
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| 22:43 | <jammcq> we don't maintain binaries, we maintain source code
| |
| 22:43 | remember?
| |
| 22:44 | binaries aren't our problem
| |
| 22:44 | <sbalneav> Ah, so what are we doing putting tarballs on our site for?
| |
| 22:44 | <vagrantc> maintaining a distro
| |
| 22:44 | <jammcq> we certainly aren't maintaining them
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| 22:44 | <otavio> sbalneav: I thought it was one of the most important change since ltsp4 -> ltsp5 ;-)
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| 22:44 | <jammcq> we're facilitating easy installation of bits for someone who's distro hasn't caught up yet
| |
| 22:45 | <sbalneav> OK, so johnny slackware comes along, downloads the tarball for the chroot, and wants localdev to work. So, what do we say? What goes on the server?
| |
| 22:45 | Do we simply not provide the server side?
| |
| 22:46 | <jammcq> well, possibly hand him the source package, tell him to ./configure && make && make test && make install
| |
| 22:46 | dunno for sure, that's what we're trying to figure out
| |
| 22:46 | this is a "transitional period"
| |
| 22:47 | <sbalneav> Wait, ok, lemme get this straight: adding two lines to /etc/sudoers is a support nightmare, but stepping some guy who doesn't speak english through a binary compile's ok?
| |
| 22:47 | <jammcq> umm, yeah
| |
| 22:50 | somebody's getting a bit grumpy about the whole thing
| |
| 22:50 | <ramsys> jammcq: if i have live cd and i connected to net is there any way to connect to my college server that support thin clients (ltsp) and access my college server or my own desktop
| |
| 22:51 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: ummmm... hwo do you propose to get binaries for slackware before slackware is officially supported?
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| 22:51 | <jammcq> ramsys: you could prolly use NX or VNC
| |
| 22:51 | <sbalneav> Well, that was what implementing that stuff as scripts + sudo would solve: they'd be distro independent.
| |
| 22:51 | <ramsys> ok
| |
| 22:51 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: except there still would be distro-specific issues.
| |
| 22:52 | sbalneav: for example, much of the python is dependent on python 2.4 modules
| |
| 22:52 | <jammcq> my whole goal of having the tarballs is to give the fedora/novell/slackware guys a swift kick in the butt, to get them moving
| |
| 22:52 | <sbalneav> Sure, but it's one HECK of a lot easier to modify a script, than it is to download source, and patch it, and recompile.
| |
| 22:52 | <jammcq> maintaing binaries is a DISTRO problem
| |
| 22:53 | <sbalneav> However, the concensus seems to be, we just maintain the source. Users are on their own.
| |
| 22:54 | <jammcq> in an open source project, developers are free to work on whatever aspect they want to work on. if they have an itch to scratch (re-implementing something in python) then they are free (and encouraged) to do it. afterall, he who has the bits wins. So, if coming up with an implementation in Python is something you wanna do, then DO it, see how it works. prove us wrong
| |
| 22:55 | we're all giving our opinions about what WE think is the right way to do it
| |
| 22:55 | sometimes we're right
| |
| 22:55 | sometimes we're passionate about it
| |
| 22:55 | but in the end, whoever has the bits, wins
| |
| 22:55 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: from a distro standpoint, there is little to no difference between a script and a compiled binary- they are treated the same.
| |
| 22:55 | <jammcq> we learned that lesson with local devices and Ubuntu
| |
| 22:55 | <otavio> sbalneav: if you want to improve it, looks at d-bus. That looks to be right way to go
| |
| 22:56 | * otavio fetching kfreebsd d-i branch to work on | |
| 22:57 | <jammcq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dbus
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| 22:57 | <sbalneav> dbus is a communications protocol, right?
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| 22:57 | FernandoMM has joined #ltsp | |
| 22:57 | <sbalneav> So, something's going to send a message over dbus, correct?
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| 22:57 | and something's going to listen and act on that, yes?
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| 22:57 | <jammcq> D-Bus is an inter-process communication (IPC) system with three architectural layers
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| 22:59 | <otavio> sbalneav: :-)
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| 22:59 | <sbalneav> Sure. So, my question here is: I'm a userspace, unprivileged process.
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| 22:59 | <otavio> sbalneav: you can "use" d-bus and ask for it do something to you
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| 23:00 | <jammcq> look at the introduction on wikipedia, it shows what the purpose is
| |
| 23:00 | <otavio> sbalneav: d-bus has the rights to make it
| |
| 23:00 | <jammcq> looks to me like it fits right into what we are doing
| |
| 23:00 | <otavio> jammcq: yes, I think it does
| |
| 23:00 | <sbalneav> So, dbus already knows how to make ltspfs bindmounts from /tmp to /media?
| |
| 23:01 | <jammcq> umm, yes, i'm sure it knows everything
| |
| 23:01 | * vagrantc doesn't like mounting to /tmp | |
| 23:01 | <jammcq> same as python, it already knows too
| |
| 23:02 | dbus is not a solution, it's just one of the pieces of the solution
| |
| 23:03 | <sbalneav> Well, that's what I'm trying to understand. As far as I've ever read, it's just an ipc mechanism. So I'd need some kind of server out there, so here's the question: do I write a server process, that runs as root, and the processes just send a message to it?
| |
| 23:03 | <jammcq> dunno
| |
| 23:03 | i'm not a d-bus expert, but i'm sure we could get someone who is, to help out
| |
| 23:03 | FernandoMM is now known as fernando[jantar] | |
| 23:03 | <jammcq> as soon as we find Ogra, we'll ask him who knows this stuff inside-and-out, and drag them in here
| |
| 23:04 | seems like it might be pitti
| |
| 23:04 | but I don't remember for sure
| |
| 23:04 | <otavio> jammcq: pitti == Martin?
| |
| 23:04 | <jammcq> yeah
| |
| 23:04 | in the end, it could be that python + dbus is the way to go
| |
| 23:04 | <otavio> jammcq: yes, he probably knows it too
| |
| 23:05 | <sbalneav> I mean, if it's just a case of 1) write a server that sits and listens to dbus, and processes message requests to do bind mounts and unmounts, and then a client piece that sends the requests, that's ok, but, we're back to the same problem:
| |
| 23:05 | <jammcq> that way, we get around the "binary" issue AND we get the priveleged things run properly
| |
| 23:05 | "same problem" ?
| |
| 23:05 | <sbalneav> it's stilll a bunch of binaries, with all the dependent problems. :)
| |
| 23:05 | <jammcq> read my previous post
| |
| 23:05 | <vagrantc> otavio: in case you're curious about my interpretation of policy why it's not ok to modify "configuration files" even if nobody "owns" them ... http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-ltsp-devel/2006-December/000540.html
| |
| 23:06 | freemindx has quit IRC | |
| 23:07 | <jammcq> there's an article on IBM's site about d-bus, complete with examples (written in python no less). only problem is the article is kindof old
| |
| 23:07 | <otavio> vagrantc: reasonable for both to be installed at the same time, one of these
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| 23:07 | packages must be defined as _owner_ of the configuration file, i.e.,
| |
| 23:07 | vagrantc: there's no "owner" on sudoers case
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| 23:07 | <vagrantc> otavio: in what way is "sudo" not the owner of sudoers?
| |
| 23:08 | <sbalneav> Perhaps I'm asking the wrong question. Let me ask it this way, then: if we have someone who doesn't currently have a native implementation of ltsp5, and who doesn't have the capability to build binary files, for whatever reason, is our policy simply, "Then you won't be able to get local devices to work" ?
| |
| 23:08 | <jammcq> python code for both the message sender and listener is less than 40 lines of code
| |
| 23:08 | <otavio> vagrantc: doesn't looks like
| |
| 23:08 | <vagrantc> otavio: the *only* configuration files that dpkg -S will report are conffiles
| |
| 23:08 | <otavio> People, I've to leave
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| 23:08 | <jammcq> no, our policy is if we can help them, we will. if we can't, we'll apologize and hope they can find someone who can help them.
| |
| 23:08 | <otavio> vagrantc: yes, that's why I think it has no owner
| |
| 23:09 | vagrantc: I'll check it tomorrow
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| 23:09 | otavio has quit IRC | |
| 23:09 | <jammcq> and we'll remind them they should send an email or file a bug report with their favorite distro, to get LTSP integrated
| |
| 23:10 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: so, essentially, we either need to provide a "universal cross-distro package" or we need ltsp (and related packages) integrated into all distros ...
| |
| 23:11 | <sbalneav> The problem I was trying to solve was provide pieces that would be easier for us to support. If we're ultimately not worried about supporting people on distros that don't have a native ltsp5 implementation, that's fine.
| |
| 23:11 | <vagrantc> i suspect a truely universal package is going to be very challenging to achive
| |
| 23:11 | <ltsppbot> "jam" pasted "STDIN: ..." (54 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/18
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| 23:12 | <sbalneav> Thanks for the dbus hello_world :)
| |
| 23:12 | <jammcq> heh
| |
| 23:12 | you asked for pointers to get started
| |
| 23:12 | <sbalneav> Now all I need to do is take that and make a rocketship out of it.
| |
| 23:12 | <jammcq> if you don't want them, that's fine
| |
| 23:12 | <whiprush> sbalneav: I love you dude.
| |
| 23:14 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: basically, what i think you need to do is provide a good solid foundation that will likely work in any distro, and then distros will adapt it as needed.
| |
| 23:15 | sbalneav: like, the ltspfs Makefile*
| |
| 23:15 | <sbalneav> Well, jammcq and I have been talking.
| |
| 23:16 | It looks as though the concensus is:
| |
| 23:16 | scripts == good, sudoers == bad, dbus == good.
| |
| 23:16 | So, now I know what I'm doing tomorrow.
| |
| 23:16 | <vagrantc> is this a grudging consensus, or a happy one?
| |
| 23:17 | <jammcq> scotty thought I was arguing against python
| |
| 23:17 | <sbalneav> Not at all, jammcq and I disagree sometimes, but we've never got to be angry :)
| |
| 23:17 | <jammcq> i'm not, although if I had to write it, it would be Perl :)
| |
| 23:17 | <sbalneav> Wasn't necessarily python. I'm happy with ANY scripting language.
| |
| 23:17 | * vagrantc is happier with python | |
| 23:17 | * vagrantc suspects ogra will be too | |
| 23:17 | <jammcq> most people are
| |
| 23:18 | and that's fine by me
| |
| 23:18 | <sbalneav> It was more a "which is easier, maintain some kind of interpreted script, versus C binaries"
| |
| 23:18 | * vagrantc is clueless with C | |
| 23:19 | <jammcq> sbalneav: this is a little bit like our decision 2 years ago to figure out lbus/ltspfs, and then sit down and do it
| |
| 23:19 | <vagrantc> lbus, that was the one we don't use
| |
| 23:20 | <jammcq> well, we don't use it anymore
| |
| 23:20 | but it worked great in LTSP-4.2
| |
| 23:20 | <vagrantc> as if LTSP 4.2 isn't used anymore!
| |
| 23:21 | <jammcq> well, it's just not being developed anymore
| |
| 23:21 | <sbalneav> I'm just trying to have us come up with something that will be easier to maintain on distros with NO ltsp5 support, because, as much as WE see the sanity in it, I suspect the practical side of it will be: it will be a few years before all "mainline" distros support it.
| |
| 23:21 | lbus worked great.
| |
| 23:21 | <vagrantc> i swear, for every debian user who tries ltsp5, nearly 2/3rds of them switch back to ltsp 4.2 :(
| |
| 23:22 | <sbalneav> What's their biggest complaint?
| |
| 23:22 | <vagrantc> which makes me feel unsettled
| |
| 23:22 | i think boot times.
| |
| 23:22 | y'all set a crazy fast expectation :P
| |
| 23:22 | <sbalneav> Really? BOOT times?
| |
| 23:23 | <vagrantc> boot times, or for whatever reason, sometimes people use some janky mirror and the download fails.
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| 23:23 | g333k_laptop has joined #ltsp | |
| 23:23 | <jammcq> well, 22 seconds to boot a thin client is pretty darned nice
| |
| 23:23 | <vagrantc> or maybe people try to use ltspadmin and it breaks everything badly.
| |
| 23:24 | <sbalneav> I know perception's 9/10ths of the issue, and jammcq and I have talked about it several times. I still find it amazing that people manage to get totally turned off on it.
| |
| 23:24 | mistik1 has quit IRC | |
| 23:24 | <vagrantc> i find it amazing, but do not deny that it really seems to rule some people.
| |
| 23:24 | a lot of people.
| |
| 23:25 | we just need dancing clowns or something during the boot process.
| |
| 23:25 | <sbalneav> See for ME, it's the ssh tunnel. I need to integrate both XDMCP and SSH methods to get localdev going nice both ways. Me personally, I'm less concerned with boot, as how it runs after.
| |
| 23:25 | whiprush: you still there?
| |
| 23:25 | * vagrantc knows clowns will scare some people, though | |
| 23:26 | <whiprush> sbalneav: just reading along
| |
| 23:26 | :)
| |
| 23:26 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: yeah. i also feel like 2/3rds of the boot time is actually just LDM loading up ...
| |
| 23:26 | <jammcq> sbalneav: once you become the d-bus expert, perhaps you'll do the network implementation of dbus, and use that for local dev control
| |
| 23:26 | fernando[jantar] has quit IRC | |
| 23:26 | <sbalneav> whiprush: now, you see, if you had a BLOG, you could blog about the momentous decisions being made here!
| |
| 23:26 | <whiprush> sbalneav: Canada rules.
| |
| 23:27 | that's all I've got.
| |
| 23:27 | * sbalneav sticks tongue out at jammcq :) | |
| 23:27 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: wouldn't it be safer and simpler to make a setuid binary that makes the directory in the right place and mounts it directly there instead of /tmp ?
| |
| 23:27 | <whiprush> sbalneav: so what's your real beef here.
| |
| 23:27 | tell me that
| |
| 23:27 | <jammcq> /tmp ?
| |
| 23:27 | <whiprush> I am trying to follow along with the discussion, but as an ltsp user I don't understand the issues here.
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| 23:28 | <sbalneav> Yours was the only blog I read on a regular basis. Now I feel lonely that I don't get to read it. Thats my issue.
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| 23:28 | <vagrantc> jammcq: the current approach mounts the ltspfs filesystems to /tmp, and them --bind mounts them to /media
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| 23:28 | <sbalneav> Oh, the ltsp stuff.
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| 23:28 | <jammcq> oh
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| 23:28 | <whiprush> other than I expect whatever changes you make to be transparent to me. :)
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| 23:28 | sbalneav: later on ask jammcq how ltsp saved my job this week.
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| 23:29 | <vagrantc> whiprush: i think much of the issue is we're going through a large shift in how the guts of LTSP work, and having a little trouble conceptualizing how that will all pan out
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| 23:29 | mistik1 has joined #ltsp | |
| 23:29 | <sbalneav> It's just a "when we distribute server side pieces, do we hand out binaries, and the problems they entail, or scripts, and the problems THEY entail, and which is easier for US to support"
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| 23:29 | <whiprush> vagrantc: I'm going to step out on a limb here.
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| 23:29 | and say that ...
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| 23:30 | <sbalneav> whiprush: yeah, he had to tell me about it. AS OPPOSED TO MY READING IT ON YOUR BLOG!
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| 23:30 | <whiprush> like, when scotty and jam talked to me about muekow .. the idea seemed to be "ltsp as a service"
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| 23:30 | <sbalneav> :p
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| 23:30 | <whiprush> I would bet 20 bucks (and not much more), that projects like apache and samba fixed this kind of thing years ago.
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| 23:30 | I would see how they handled this kind of thing, and look if that helped them or not.
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| 23:31 | so like ... 2 years ago ... ltsp was an add on thing.
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| 23:31 | you had to want it to get it
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| 23:31 | and as far as I know, now the goal is "out of the box with the distro"
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| 23:31 | <vagrantc> well, "apache" and "samba" are more coherrent pieces of software ... LTSP is more a collection of different pieces of software to accomplish thin-clients (and more)
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| 23:31 | <sbalneav> right.
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| 23:32 | <vagrantc> whiprush: the "out of the box" thing is almost a separate issue.
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| 23:32 | <whiprush> vagrantc: I don't think that should matter.
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| 23:32 | <jammcq> well, LTSP is becoming more of a "specification" than an actual collection of code
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| 23:33 | <whiprush> I think the use case (and I say this as a customer), is "thin clients ootb"
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| 23:33 | <jammcq> there's a bit of glue code that we provide, but more important is the whole concept of booting a thin client
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| 23:33 | <whiprush> and considering the numbers of deployments you guys have
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| 23:33 | this is a decent ... bargaining chip with the distros.
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| 23:34 | <jammcq> we are "transitioning" (to borrow a word from a friend of mine), from a mini-distro, to a specification for others to use their bits
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| 23:34 | <sbalneav> For a long time, ltsp was just the stuff that ran in the chroot: you used the stuff that CAME with the server to implement it, i.e. dhcp, nfs, etc. Now we're getting into a situation where we're having to supply stuff for the server. Which is a new ball of wax for us.
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| 23:34 | <whiprush> I played with sunrays for 3 years, and got burned. Now we're doing ltsp, and I can't be the only one.
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| 23:34 | if ltsp ends up being some "spec", then whatever.
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| 23:35 | for a long time, gnome tried shipping binaries for every distro
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| 23:35 | disaster.
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| 23:35 | now they do source only.
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| 23:35 | if you care about it, you handle it upstream.
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| 23:36 | <sbalneav> yeah, that's where we are. Eventually, we'll be in gnome's position. But what do we do in the meantime. That's what we're trying to solve.
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| 23:36 | <whiprush> yeah that sucks
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| 23:36 | you have millions of people in the middle.
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| 23:36 | <jammcq> ultimately, we'd like the distros to be responsible for the binaries. we'll focus on the "techical issues" of thin clients, like local devices, local audio, security. as we find reasonable solutions to those problems, we'll create an implementation, and then hand it over to the distros to productize
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| 23:36 | <sbalneav> yup.
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| 23:37 | <whiprush> jammcq: right, like apache and samba do.
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| 23:37 | <jammcq> yup
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| 23:37 | <whiprush> you guys handle the project, let distros handle the details
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| 23:37 | <jammcq> it really should be better that way, I think
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| 23:38 | <whiprush> dude, if may be out of whack here ...
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| 23:38 | make ltsp an fdo standard.
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| 23:38 | <jammcq> although i'd really love it, if we had a fedora guy and a novell guy in here, as passionate about this stuff as vagrantc and ogra are
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| 23:38 | <whiprush> "this is how we do thin clients"
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| 23:38 | it's how everyone does thin clients anyway
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| 23:38 | <jammcq> whiprush: we could (and maybe should) do that
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| 23:39 | <whiprush> jammcq: if you push for an fdo-like spec, they'll have to contribute.
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| 23:39 | <vagrantc> i'm just happy a project with name recognition started seeing things my way :)
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| 23:39 | <whiprush> I mean, hell, all of ltsp is based on existing standards.
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| 23:39 | <jammcq> contribute? what... money?
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| 23:39 | <whiprush> formalizing it is ... like, half a step.
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| 23:39 | jammcq: people, i mean engineering resources.
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| 23:40 | not like, money money
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| 23:40 | you guys have been around forever, might as well push this as the "thin client" standard.
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| 23:40 | it's all open
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| 23:40 | no big deal.
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| 23:40 | <jammcq> tru dat
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| 23:41 | <whiprush> you guys have been working with upstreams that have been willing on making it rock.
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| 23:41 | and have kept open invites for what ... a decade now?
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| 23:41 | <jammcq> well, 8 years now
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| 23:41 | Jan 99 is when we booted our first diskless workstation
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| 23:42 | <whiprush> dude you know every fdo guy by name probably.
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| 23:42 | no one would object.
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| 23:42 | It's a defacto standard anyway
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| 23:42 | and then
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| 23:42 | <jammcq> it's something i'd prolly look at in the next 6 months or so. too busy to think about it right now
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| 23:42 | <whiprush> when RH and novell get stupid, you have one more trump card.
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| 23:43 | <jammcq> RH an Novell don't seem to be too concerned with fdo standards
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| 23:43 | <whiprush> well then, look at what you're shipping now, and supporting.
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| 23:43 | their loss
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| 23:43 | <jammcq> based on that video from fudcon, i'd say there's a decent chance that Fedora will continue in our direction
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| 23:43 | no clue on what novell is doing though
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| 23:44 | <whiprush> ok, well, that was my opinion. I'll shut up now
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| 23:44 | <jammcq> heh
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| 23:44 | * jammcq writes it down, as to not forget it | |
| 23:44 | <whiprush> just saying. jammcq, you've been one of the oldest X guys on the planet for years now.
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| 23:44 | <jammcq> hmm, it's prolly not fair to call me an X guy, with follks like jgettys and keithp around
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| 23:44 | <whiprush> if someone were to say "ltsp is now the standard for unix thin clients", no one would say otherwise.
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| 23:45 | make it an fdo thing, and rock on
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| 23:45 | <jammcq> heh
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| 23:45 | <whiprush> jammcq: you guys so undersell yourselves.
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| 23:45 | <jammcq> what that means to me is "work" at a time when I don't have the time
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| 23:45 | <whiprush> you guys ship more desktops than anyone
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| 23:45 | combined
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| 23:45 | more than kde
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| 23:45 | more than gnome.
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| 23:46 | you guys have been underated for like, 8 years. Screw that! Go tell people what the standard is, you have the users, and the mindshare.
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| 23:47 | ok, I'm done now, I promise. :)
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| 23:47 | vagrantc, sbalneav, what do you guys think?
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| 23:47 | <jammcq> :)
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| 23:47 | <vagrantc> i don't really even know what an fdo specification is.
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| 23:47 | <whiprush> jammcq: you caught me on a saturday where I had to go into work to fix sunrays, so I am particularly livid. :)
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| 23:48 | vagrantc: freedesktop.org
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| 23:48 | like, they do things like, window manager hints
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| 23:48 | so like, drag and drop works
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| 23:48 | <vagrantc> yeah. i hear about them all the time. people seem to like it.
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| 23:49 | so i guess ltsp should jump on the bandwagon
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| 23:49 | <whiprush> vagrantc: so like, when people want something to become universal, they approach fdo.
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| 23:49 | things like, avahi for zeroconf.
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| 23:49 | poppler for pdf rendering
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| 23:49 | that can be used by all projects.
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| 23:49 | <vagrantc> i am unpure, though. i've been playing with other technologies :)
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| 23:49 | <whiprush> it's kind of a defacto standard house
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| 23:49 | <jammcq> we've already got our bugzilla at fdo
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| 23:49 | so we're pretty much there already
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| 23:50 | * vagrantc shrieks at the mention of bugzilla | |
| 23:50 | <jammcq> :)
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| 23:50 | <whiprush> hey, you guys still doing bzr? (out of curiosity)
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| 23:50 | <jammcq> bugzilla bugzilla bugzilla
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| 23:50 | how's that?
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| 23:50 | whiprush: barely using bzr
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| 23:50 | <whiprush> git?
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| 23:50 | <jammcq> nope
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| 23:50 | <whiprush> !
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| 23:50 | <vagrantc> well, debian and ubuntu is using bzr for ltsp work ... i don't know about upstream.
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| 23:51 | <jammcq> it's bzr, we're just not really using much of it
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| 23:51 | most of the development bits are sitting on scotty's server at home
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| 23:51 | <whiprush> oh man
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| 23:51 | not good!
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| 23:51 | <jammcq> well, yeah, we know
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| 23:52 | <whiprush> bzr/git, for the win man.
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| 23:52 | they both do svn plugins too
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| 23:52 | so you only need to learn one scm
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| 23:52 | <jammcq> welp guys, i'm about to fall off my chair. gotta get some sleep
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| 23:53 | <whiprush> vagrantc: I promise to make jammcq learn distributed version control.
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| 23:53 | jammcq: nite
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| 23:53 | <vagrantc> jammcq: well, obviously you need a better chair if it's letting you fall off and sleep.
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| 23:54 | whiprush: good. good.
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| 23:55 | <whiprush> vagrantc: i will try. :)
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| 23:55 | <sbalneav> I'm getting tired.
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| 23:55 | I'm gonna hit the sack... Night all.
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| 23:55 | <vagrantc> sbalneav, jammcq: you gonna be around tomorrow ?
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| 23:56 | <sbalneav> yup, for at least the morning
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| 23:56 | You gonna be around?
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| 23:57 | <vagrantc> hopefully... though with a little timezone skew, might be hard to make it for your morning.
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| 23:57 | <sbalneav> where are you?
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| 23:57 | <vagrantc> nuevo mexico
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| 23:57 | <sbalneav> ah
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| 23:57 | <vagrantc> MST
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| 23:57 | <jammcq> :)
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| 23:57 | yep
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| 23:57 | at 2pm they'll kick us out of here
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| 23:57 | that's EST
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| 23:57 | <sbalneav> ok well, we'll look for you.
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| 23:58 | I'm shuttn' down. Night all.
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| 23:58 | sbalneav has left #ltsp | |
| 23:58 | * vagrantc will try to make a presence | |
| 23:59 | <vagrantc> whiprush: any word on getting LTSP running on the sunrays?
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