IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 14 December 2009 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:25 | <alkisg> ogra, stgraber, would you sponsor an "ltsp-image" package to be included to universe? That would provide /opt/ltsp/images/image-version.img, and also the kernels in tftp? The goal is to provide an "automatically administrated/updated" ltsp image for the most common cases.
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| 01:25 | So one would install the ltsp-image and the ltsp-server[-standalone] WITHOUT EVER running ltsp-build-client or ltsp-update-image. Of course users would be notified that ssh host checking is off (in lts.conf SSH_OPTIONS).
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| 01:25 | Apart from being able to get updates for the image, it would make it easier for other distros to use Ubuntu chroots.
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| 01:27 | And it might also be used in the edubuntu live dvd.
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| 01:28 | <Appiah> why would other dists wanna use ubuntu chroots?
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| 01:28 | <alkisg> Appiah: see the mailing list, e.g. centos doesn't have support for ltsp
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| 01:30 | <Appiah> is there a specfic thread in the mailing list for this?
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| 01:31 | <alkisg> No no. I mean that there were some cases where ubuntu chroot were used in other distros
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| 01:32 | That's not my goal, it's just a side-effect
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| 01:35 | <cyberorg> alkisg, or you can transfer ssh keys from server over tftp like we do or use ssh-keyscan in the client to get the keys from the server when booting
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| 01:37 | <alkisg> Right - I just don't think that ssh keys offer anything to security in the LTSP case - anyway that's a long talk so I'll just agree to transferring keys over tftp. :)
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| 01:37 | <Ryan52> alkisg: so the full chroot is in a single .deb?
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| 01:38 | <alkisg> Ryan52: that's my idea
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| 01:38 | Both the chroot and the kernels
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| 01:38 | <Ryan52> cool idea, but does the conform to gpl?
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| 01:38 | or does ubuntu even care about that?
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| 01:38 | <alkisg> Erm, why not?
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| 01:38 | <Ryan52> I mean, how are the sources distributed?
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| 01:38 | <cyberorg> Ryan52, we use distro packages for the chroot image
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| 01:39 | <Ryan52> that's why I'm asking if ubuntu cares..
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| 01:39 | <alkisg> I'll *have* to upload the source script to launchpad for the .deb to be built
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| 01:39 | <Ryan52> I know that this would not be acceptable in Debian.
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| 01:39 | yes, the source script.
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| 01:39 | <alkisg> So sure it conforms fine to the gpl
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| 01:39 | <Ryan52> but not the source for the files in the chroot.
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| 01:39 | let me give you an example...
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| 01:39 | ssh version 1.2.3 is uploaded to ubuntu
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| 01:39 | it gets pulled into your chroot and .deb
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| 01:40 | so you have a /usr/bin/ssh binary, that was built from the 1.2.3 source.
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| 01:40 | the source is still in the ssh source package
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| 01:40 | then ssh version 1.2.4 gets uploaded to ubuntu
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| 01:40 | and replaces 1.2.3
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| 01:40 | but your chroot binary still contains the 1.2.3 binary.
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| 01:40 | where's its source?
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| 01:40 | <cyberorg> Ryan52, we release updated img
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| 01:41 | <alkisg> Huh? Ryan52, then Ubuntu shouldn't ever ship initrds
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| 01:41 | (or Debian or any other distro)
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| 01:41 | <cyberorg> yes that too ^^ :)
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| 01:42 | <Ryan52> I didn't think of that..
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| 01:42 | huh.
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| 01:42 | well, it still seems like a problem regardless :P
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| 01:42 | * Ryan52 runs and hides | |
| 01:42 | <alkisg> Heh :)
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| 01:43 | I think that old sources can be found in launchpad for all built versions of openssh, though
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| 01:43 | <Ryan52> oh, okay. that's not true of Debian, which is why it may be more of a problem for Debian.
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| 01:43 | <alkisg> So if I'm using plain ubuntu sources, then I think I'm ok
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| 01:43 | <cyberorg> i don't like the idea of building images on binary distributions, sounds same as building packages from source, why make all users waste resources multiple times when it can be done once
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| 01:44 | <alkisg> cyberorg: waster resources?
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| 01:44 | *waste
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| 01:44 | What do you mean?
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| 01:44 | Ah, you're in favor of shiping ltsp images as binary blobs?
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| 01:44 | <cyberorg> running lts-build-client is almost making everyone run ./configure && make && make install :)
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| 01:45 | alkisg, of course i am, i do that from the first day :)
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| 01:45 | <alkisg> Right, but it gives more costumization power, and in many cases that is indeed needed
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| 01:45 | <johnny> cyberorg, is right tho
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| 01:45 | <Appiah> wouldnt be a problem if it's a seperate package
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| 01:45 | <johnny> we can do better
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| 01:45 | <alkisg> E.g. if someone has nvidia server & clients, then he'd better use the proprietary drivers :)
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| 01:45 | <Appiah> so people who dont want those images can simply not apt-get em
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| 01:45 | <cyberorg> alkisg, very few users actually requires customizations
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| 01:46 | <johnny> installing directly from an image is smart
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| 01:46 | like an ltsp client spin for fedora
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| 01:46 | <alkisg> cyberorg: sure, I agree, I'm targeting e.g. 95% of Greek schools that use LTSP
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| 01:46 | <Appiah> no localapps?
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| 01:46 | <johnny> alkisg, the point is.. you should be able to just drop a fully setup install
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| 01:46 | <cyberorg> go for it, you can always put packages in ppa :)
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| 01:46 | <johnny> in place
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| 01:46 | instead of having it build the environment for you evertime
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| 01:46 | <alkisg> Appiah: sure, I'll even include an mplayer there for youtube (no flash though)
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| 01:47 | <cyberorg> Appiah, we put firefox and icewm as localapp, firefox uses all plugins installed on the server automatically(sshfs magic)
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| 01:47 | <alkisg> I won't put firefox as a localapp, just mplayer
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| 01:47 | <Appiah> but I mean
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| 01:47 | <cyberorg> for more localapp, admin will have to rebuild image
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| 01:47 | <johnny> of course.. you should be able to install packages post setup..
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| 01:47 | <Appiah> in this already built image
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| 01:47 | would there be localapps?
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| 01:47 | <johnny> Appiah, no.. but you can drop in and install them the same as you do now
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| 01:48 | <Appiah> right
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| 01:48 | <johnny> of coursre.. what should happen.. is we should have our own thing that does packagekit
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| 01:48 | <alkisg> Appiah: Yes, but just mplayer for videos + youtube.
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| 01:48 | <johnny> but pointing at the root of the chroot
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| 01:48 | since package kit works for every distro
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| 01:48 | or.. rather.. every distro we currently support..
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| 01:49 | <alkisg> Appiah: firefox isn't really a problem if youtube uses mplayer
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| 01:49 | <Appiah> alkisg ye...
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| 01:49 | ...?
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| 01:49 | :)
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| 01:50 | <alkisg> So if anyone wants to broadcast video, he'll be able to use the local mplayer. And if he wants it in youtube as well, he can put the greasemonkey script with a small "localapps" in front :)
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| 01:52 | cyberorg: if it's going to be accepted to universe, I'll try to go a good job, where everything gets build automatically. If not, I'll just make the binary blob manually and upload it to my PPA - that's why I was asking ogra and stgraber
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| 01:52 | <cyberorg> we can also use sshfs to mount /usr/local from server, that way the .img does not require any modification, users just install stuff they require in the client in /usr/local
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| 01:53 | <alkisg> I don't think that would work when the server is amd64 and the client is i386
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| 01:54 | (which I imagine will be a common case...)
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| 01:54 | <Appiah> yupp
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| 01:55 | /usr/ltsp-arch/ ? :)
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| 01:56 | <alkisg> Nah, if someone needs to install many localapps for the clients, he'd better use the standard ltsp. That ltsp-image package would be for the simple users :)
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| 01:56 | <cyberorg> will work fine for 32bit servers, 64 is no longer required for > 4G ram anyway, alternatives like VM can be used if the server is 64bit
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| 01:57 | <alkisg> Also, how would /usr/local help in running gimp locally? Gimp is in /usr/bin...
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| 01:58 | (and it needs a lot of libraries etc from different paths...)
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| 01:59 | <cyberorg> alkisg, i once started work on very thin fat client, that mounted all important places from the server, the image size was still just about 150M
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| 01:59 | <Appiah> " will work fine for 32bit servers, 64 is no longer required for > 4G ram anyway," what?
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| 01:59 | <alkisg> Appiah: PAE
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| 01:59 | <Appiah> oh
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| 02:00 | PAE been around for long
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| 02:00 | or am I missing something?
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| 02:00 | <alkisg> cyberorg: I once made clients boot from nfs from the server itself, with no chroot at all :)
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| 02:00 | Only some files like /etc/hostname etc needed bind-mounting, but that wasn't hard...
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| 02:01 | <johnny> hmm.. don't you think with upstart you could script it to run on the server?
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| 02:01 | <alkisg> An 00-initscript did everything, pretty simple
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| 02:01 | <cyberorg> way to go :)
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| 02:01 | <johnny> seems like a better way..
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| 02:01 | <alkisg> But that isn't LTSP at all, it's fat clients - that should be a different project
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| 02:02 | * alkisg isn't using LTSP for new, powerful labs... | |
| 02:02 | <johnny> no.. i mean actually doing the right thing with the init scripts and all
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| 02:02 | to setup ldm
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| 02:02 | i think ltsp could do a bit better in not overriding so much of the system
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| 02:02 | <alkisg> johnny: sure, I do think that too.
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| 02:02 | <johnny> doing manual pulse configs and whatnot.. so we can't use the pulse init script
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| 02:02 | <alkisg> I also don't think that we need a custom kernel in ubuntu
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| 02:02 | We can boot ltsp with the stock one
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| 02:03 | <johnny> of course.. it's a bit harder to do it if the arch is different :(
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| 02:13 | <tarzeau> any tips for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/485709 ?
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| 03:48 | <Roel___> Hi guys
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| 03:49 | I'm having a client that says : /etc/hostname not writable
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| 03:53 | <johnny> Roel___, .. if it's gentoo.. i'll have to help you later.. i have to go to bed, it's 5am
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| 03:53 | will be back in 7 hours
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| 03:54 | <dmarkey_> wow thats late
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| 03:56 | <alkisg> There's a bug with the same message here (over nfs): https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/485709
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| 03:56 | <Roel___> lol :)
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| 03:56 | thx
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| 04:13 | <Roel___> Can anyone explain me how the boot process for gentoo ltsp work?
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| 04:14 | It seems to be booting a different kernel on the thinclient
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| 04:14 | maybe only after the switchroot?
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| 05:26 | <Roel___> Can anyone explain me why the ltsp docs moved... and why 80 % is gone?
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| 05:36 | <alkisg1> Roel___: the ltsp.org server was broken, so they're slowly moving them to sourceforge.
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| 05:37 | <Roel___> :s can't find any cache of it
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| 05:40 | <alkisg1> What are you looking for?
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| 05:41 | <alkisg1> (that's not in the docs, I mean)
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| 05:41 | !docs
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| 05:41 | <ltspbot> alkisg1: "docs" :: For the most current documentation, see https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ltsp/index.php?title=Ltsp_LtspDocumentationUpstream
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| 05:47 | <Roel___> thanks
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| 05:47 | that does help me :)
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| 05:48 | !gentoo-developers :p
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| 05:48 | <ltspbot> Roel___: Error: "gentoo-developers" is not a valid command.
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| 05:52 | <alkisg> !gentoo
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| 05:52 | <ltspbot> alkisg: Error: "gentoo" is not a valid command.
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| 07:39 | <Roel__> any ltsp developer for gentoo already woke up?
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| 07:52 | <_USUrPeR_> hey all
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| 07:53 | <_USUrPeR_> I'm trying to figure out how to shut of xinerama on a DLW 1520 (atom) in order to use "dual port" output instead.
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| 07:53 | anybody have any ideas?
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| 07:54 | <alkisg> _USUrPeR_: good question... but I think it's missing something
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| 07:54 | I think it's missing "Gadi:" in front of it :D
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| 07:55 | <_USUrPeR_> lulz
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| 07:55 | let me rephrase:
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| 07:56 | I would like to have two full-screen applications set up. One - an rdesktop session to a windows server, the other, an nx session to a linux server. Both run from a single thinclient.
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| 07:58 | <_USUrPeR_> I would like to do this all by bypassing the ldm.
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| 08:01 | <Appiah> cant you put that in lts.conf?
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| 08:02 | SCREEN_XX=""
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| 08:02 | <_USUrPeR_> Appiah: sort of. That would apply to both screens, and I need the screens to be independent.
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| 08:03 | <Appiah> umm
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| 08:03 | <_USUrPeR_> Appiah: screen_7 = rdesktop works
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| 08:03 | <Appiah> if you put on on screen7 and another on screen8 how is that not idependent?
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| 08:03 | (example)
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| 08:03 | <_USUrPeR_> but I need to have two separate full screens instead of a xinerama single screen.
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| 08:04 | xinerama, after all, creates a full desktop from two screens. I want to shut off xinerama in order to have two independent screens
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| 08:05 | <Appiah> I never used SCREEN= for seperate sessions but I thought you had to switch by alt +ctrl + #
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| 08:05 | <alkisg> Don't you need 2 x servers for that?
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| 08:05 | <Appiah> I thought that was what it did
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| 08:05 | <alkisg> At least that's how nvidia does it...
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| 08:05 | <_USUrPeR_> alkisg: yeah, that's how nvidia does it
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| 08:05 | and if that's the case, no problem
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| 08:05 | <Appiah> unless you run twinview
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| 08:05 | :)
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| 08:05 | <alkisg> So you'd need some custom xorg.conf
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| 08:06 | twinview doesn't display 2 different screens though
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| 08:06 | <Appiah> like alkisg said , customise xorg.conf
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| 08:06 | hmm
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| 08:06 | <_USUrPeR_> yeah, the xorg.conf seems like the best way...
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| 08:06 | <alkisg> But I have no idea what would be *inside* that xorg.conf. Like I said, the questions misses a "Gadi:" if front of it :)
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| 08:06 | <Appiah> but I think I saw someone doing this here on IRC or on the mailing list
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| 08:06 | <alkisg> (maybe lts.conf is capable of producing such a xorg.conf with regular lts.conf options)
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| 08:07 | <Appiah> yes you can put x configurations in lts.conf
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| 08:07 | but maybe not all x configs?
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| 08:07 | <_USUrPeR_> hmm.
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| 08:49 | <_USUrPeR_> !seen gadi
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| 08:49 | <ltspbot> _USUrPeR_: gadi was last seen in #ltsp 4 days, 21 hours, 45 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Gadi> that pops up another terminal window that is local to the client
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| 08:56 | <Roel__> What should I do when my client displays Connection refused 9571... what service hasn't started then?
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| 08:57 | <_USUrPeR_> Roel__: does it show that when you attempt to log in after boot?
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| 08:57 | <Roel__> no, when trying to start X
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| 08:58 | no login screen showed
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| 08:58 | <_USUrPeR_> hmm. so it doesn't get to ldm
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| 08:58 | <Roel__> netstat -ant shows it's not listening for this port
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| 08:58 | so I assumed there's another service to be started
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| 08:59 | <_USUrPeR_> what are you running?
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| 08:59 | (OS)
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| 08:59 | <Roel__> gentoo
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| 08:59 | <_USUrPeR_> oh
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| 08:59 | ...
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| 08:59 | <Roel__> what services do other distro's depend on?
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| 08:59 | <_USUrPeR_> tftp, dhcp...
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| 08:59 | <Roel__> I know gentoo is a lot different... but maybe it's just a simple service I didn't start and didn't add on rc-update
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| 08:59 | <_USUrPeR_> uhmmm.... firewall is off? :)
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| 09:00 | <Roel__> tftp OK, dhcp > dnsmaq OK
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| 09:00 | yes firewall is off :)
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| 09:00 | <_USUrPeR_> heh
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| 09:01 | Roel__: I have no idea what would cause that. I have never used gentoo before.
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| 09:02 | <Roel__> It seems there are only 2 persons knowing about gentoo : Knipwim and johnny
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| 09:02 | is LDM a service in your distro?
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| 09:03 | <_USUrPeR_> naw, it's just the login screen
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| 09:03 | <Roel__> shit
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| 09:03 | so how does it start through xdm?
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| 09:04 | <_USUrPeR_> :x
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| 09:25 | <sbalneav> morning all
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| 09:26 | <Roel__> gaftn
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| 09:29 | <_USUrPeR_> X_CONF = "<place_whre_xorg.conf_would_go>" used to work, right? Anybody know if the lts.conf setting changed for that?
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| 09:31 | <sbalneav> That should work.
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| 09:31 | <_USUrPeR_> sbalneav: is CONFIGURE_X = True supposed to be in there still?
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| 09:32 | <sbalneav> That's a good one. I'd say no.
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| 09:33 | I specifically go out of my way to buy thin clients that autoconfigure properly, so I haven't had to touch display settings for a long, long time.
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| 09:33 | A lot of those buffers have been flushed by now :(
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| 09:33 | <_USUrPeR_> sbalneav: yeah. This is a special circumstance
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| 09:34 | sbalneav: I'm trying to separate a dual screen output into two screens (I.E. no xinerama/twinview etx...) in order to have fullscreen output of both NX and rdesktop on the same client
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| 09:38 | <sbalneav> <shudder>
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| 09:48 | <alkisg> _USUrPeR_: CONFIGURE_X is only needed on hardy. Also, remember to put the new xorg.conf to the chroot before using X_CONF.
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| 09:50 | Brian_H has joined #ltsp | |
| 09:53 | <_USUrPeR_> alkisg: yeah, got it.
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| 09:53 | I am rebuilding in a different place.
| |
| 09:53 | err rebuilding the ltsp image with the xorg.conf in a different place
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| 10:04 | <Roel__> Gentoo LTSP people online here?
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| 10:06 | <stgraber> alkisg: just wondering, were you aware that Edubuntu DVD will contain a LTSP image out of the box starting with Lucid ?
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| 10:06 | alkisg: and that you'll get a working LTSP server from the Live DVD already without having to build the image
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| 10:06 | <alkisg> stgraber: nope, I thought that you & highvoltage wanted sbalneav to deal with it, and sbalneav didn't want to deal with it :D
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| 10:07 | stgraber: so who's gonna do it?
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| 10:07 | <_USUrPeR_> ok, here's the output I am getting on my client: http://pastebin.com/m548b15d8
| |
| 10:07 | also, my lts.conf and xorg.conf
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| 10:07 | it looks like X_CONF = no longer works :/
| |
| 10:20 | <sbalneav> stgraber: are you saying that this has been DONE, or that this has been identified as a target?
| |
| 10:22 | Personally, I see it as generating an awful lot of work, using up an awful lot of space that could be more legitimately used for langpacks or education software, and providing absolutely 0 value.
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| 10:22 | yanu has joined #ltsp | |
| 10:22 | korcan has joined #ltsp | |
| 10:22 | squarepeg has joined #ltsp | |
| 10:23 | <Roel__> If my gentoo says connection refused (5741 or something like it) ... anyone know what to to?
| |
| 10:23 | <alkisg> sbalneav: people do want to try if their hardware is capable of running under linux/ltsp
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| 10:23 | <jhutchins_lt> Roel__: Not a clue, no idea what you're trying to do.
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| 10:24 | <Roel__> start X
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| 10:24 | I think it says that when LDM start
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| 10:24 | <sbalneav> alkisg: so, boot the live cd on the box.
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| 10:24 | <Roel__> though not sure
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| 10:24 | <alkisg> sbalneav: with 64 RAM?
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| 10:24 | <sbalneav> Or, test it with a laptop in that case.
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| 10:25 | We're using up megabytes of precious space that could be filled with things that ADD VALUE.
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| 10:25 | <jhutchins_lt> Roel__: Ok, I think we can assume that you're running ltsp from a Gentoo server, and are trying to get a network boot, but are getting that message. What happens _before_ that message?
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| 10:26 | <alkisg> sbalneav: Most schools here don't have sysadmins nor laptops. And until the DVD is filled up I personally don't care much about the extra space :)
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| 10:26 | <Roel__> eeuh.. It boots the complete stuff up to a console login. When I ctrl+alt+F7 I can see that a connection is refused
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| 10:26 | <sbalneav> Plus, you've got the whole issue of how a static DVD is going to somehow dynamically launch a dhcp server of some kind without completely hosing your network.
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| 10:26 | <alkisg> proxydhcp
| |
| 10:27 | It doesn't mess with anything...
| |
| 10:27 | And it just requires a single file in /etc/dnsmas.q
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| 10:27 | <_USUrPeR_> ok, so say "X_CONF =" is no longer used in 9.10. Is there any documentation for lts.conf options anymore?
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| 10:28 | <alkisg> _USUrPeR_: why? I think X_CONF *is* used in 9.10
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| 10:28 | <sbalneav> I can see I'm arguing to myself on this one, so like I say; Free Software is all about scratching your own itches. This isn't my itch. The people who want this feature need to make it happen :)
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| 10:29 | <alkisg> sbalneav: sure, noone objects to that. I wonder why stgraber says it's being done, though...
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| 10:30 | <Roel__> jhutchins_lt: I ques youy have no idea :)
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| 10:30 | <sbalneav> Dunno. If he's DONE it already, great. If it's being handed down to us as a requirement from "on high"... :)
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| 10:30 | Roel__: which, the ssh connection?
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| 10:30 | <Roel__> it doens't really say
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| 10:30 | <alkisg> sbalneav: Well I wouldn't mind doing it, an ltsp-image package (which would be the most work) is needed by a lot of teachers
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| 10:31 | <jhutchins_lt> sbalneav: Sounds like it might be the X connection, high port number.
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| 10:31 | Roel__: If you have a functional console then the basic system is working.
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| 10:31 | <sbalneav> ah. Maybe there's a firewall setup on the chroot, or X is being started -notcp
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| 10:31 | <Roel__> it's functional
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| 10:31 | I can quite do anything I like there
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| 10:32 | <sbalneav> is X running?
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| 10:32 | <jhutchins_lt> Roel__: So clearly the issue is with remote X.
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| 10:33 | <Roel__> I guess it's running, let me check for a moment
| |
| 10:33 | <sbalneav> alkisg: The other problem you're going to run into is, I suspect, the shipping of "a binary blob". We'd probably need a ruling on what's involved with shipping a i386.img file as just a single blorp.
| |
| 10:34 | <alkisg> sbalneav: I asked in #launchpad about uploading such a blob on my ppa, and they said it would be OK
| |
| 10:34 | <sbalneav> Well THEY don't care.
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| 10:34 | I'm talking Gnu GPL wise
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| 10:35 | <Roel__> as there is a graphical login screen on the server... I guess it's running
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| 10:35 | <alkisg> sbalneav: So I imagine if I did it more properly and created a script that would create the blob *on* launchpad, there wouldn't be a problem...
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| 10:35 | sbalneav: Ryan52 said the same thing this morning... how are initrds different?
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| 10:35 | <sbalneav> plus, in the end, they're going to need to do an ltsp-build client ANYWAY if they want to update things.
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| 10:36 | unless we're going to get into updating a "standard" chroot, and rebuilding the blob package on a regular basis for them.
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| 10:36 | <alkisg> Sure, no problem there.
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| 10:36 | <sbalneav> alkisg: I have no idea if they ARE different. There may be no problem with it at all, but someone should CHECK anyway.
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| 10:37 | <jhutchins_lt> sbalneav: From what I've seen the GNU people don't object to binary blobs per se, it's binary blobs where the source is not available.
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| 10:37 | <sbalneav> Last thing we want is to have the whole world just start installing blob packages because it's "easier", then have stallman come in and say "boo"
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| 10:38 | <jhutchins_lt> sbalneav: As long as you've got source available for whatever you did to create the blob it's fine, source doesn't have to be included, just available.
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| 10:38 | <sbalneav> jhutchins_lt: there's lots of shades of grey on that one. What I'm saying is, someone should do due dilligence and check.
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| 10:38 | <alkisg> If the blob is built on launchpad, the source is there.
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| 10:39 | <jhutchins_lt> sbalneav: Otherwise we'd all be running gentoo.
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| 10:39 | Blinny has left #ltsp | |
| 10:39 | <sbalneav> I'm not disagreeing. I can't see a problem with it either.
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| 10:40 | but LTSP USED to ship redhat stuff, and the source code was available..
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| 10:40 | and we couldn't be included in distros because, even though the source was AVAILABLE, it wasn't available from US specifically
| |
| 10:41 | * Roel__ still loking for the light in Gentoo | |
| 10:42 | <sbalneav> One of the whole reasons ltsp 4.2 was created was to get away from shipping blobs, since distros wouldn't touch 'em with a 10 foot pole.
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| 10:42 | Roel__: You'll just have to wait until people who are doing the gentoo port show up.
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| 10:42 | Patience. Virtue. Etc.
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| 10:43 | <Roel__> I have patience, but my boss doesn't :s
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| 10:43 | <alkisg> Your boss requires ltsp on gentoo?!! :O
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| 10:45 | <Roel__> no I had the system working on ltsp 4.2
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| 10:45 | Then as my needs got bigger , I convinced him to let me shut down the system to install ltsp 5
| |
| 10:46 | now, I'm blocked and I can't do anything
| |
| 10:46 | I can't find the problem
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| 10:46 | I don't axactly understand the way ltsp 5 works and the documentation doesn't seem to apply to gentoo
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| 10:52 | and yes you can say I'm stupid :)
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| 10:53 | Gentoo is getting very close <-- means : not yet done
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| 10:53 | <sbalneav> That's usually what "getting close" means :)
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| 10:54 | I'm not sure how gentoo's doing their port, but I *THINK* the majority of the theory of operation section should apply.
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| 10:56 | Roel_ has joined #ltsp | |
| 10:59 | Roel__ has quit IRC | |
| 10:59 | <Roel_> well... anyways, I've spoke to knipwim friday, and he is already using ltsp 5 on gentoo... he said there were some things still to be done manually, but it should work in the end. So I asked what and he named a couple of things which I did. But I'm starting to expect there were a lot more things to be done :)
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| 11:25 | <_USUrPeR_> does anybody know why etherboot is not working properly for 9.10?
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| 11:26 | <alkisg> _USUrPeR_: no, but there's a bug filed for that.
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| 11:26 | <sbalneav> which, against mknbi?
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| 11:26 | <alkisg> No, against ltsp
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| 11:27 | <johnny> Roel_, it's xinetd
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| 11:27 | * alkisg looks for the bug #... | |
| 11:27 | <Roel_> johnny: what should I do?
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| 11:28 | <johnny> you should have some ldm related file in /etc/xinet.d on the server
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| 11:28 | start it
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| 11:29 | <sbalneav> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/487826
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| 11:29 | <Roel_> permission denied
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| 11:29 | <sbalneav> Yeah, this is probably a mknbi bug
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| 11:29 | <Roel_> chmod it ?
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| 11:29 | <johnny> as root..
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| 11:29 | <Roel_> I'm root, so I guess it has no execution permissions
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| 11:29 | <johnny> what are you starting?
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| 11:30 | /etc/init.d/xinetd start
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| 11:30 | <alkisg> _USUrPeR_, sbalneav: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/487826
| |
| 11:30 | knipwim_ is now known as knipwim | |
| 11:30 | <Roel_> /etc/xinetd.d/ldminfod: line 3: service: command not found
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| 11:30 | and so on
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| 11:30 | <sbalneav> That should properly be reassigned to the mknbi package.
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| 11:31 | alexqwesa has quit IRC | |
| 11:32 | <sbalneav> Sigh, I can never figure out how to re-assign a bug to a different package.
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| 11:32 | <alkisg> sbalneav: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/487826/+editstatus
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| 11:33 | <johnny> don't try starting it manually.. you have to start xinetd..
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| 11:33 | <alkisg> sbalneav: package [ltsp] => choose
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| 11:33 | <sbalneav> ok, I've re-assigned it to the mknbi package.
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| 11:33 | <johnny> oh.. forgot.. you have to open it up and enable it too
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| 11:33 | <alkisg> sbalneav: but it may be better to keep ltsp in "affects" so that we remember it and send duplicates there
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| 11:33 | <sbalneav> _USUrPeR_: I've re-assigned that package to mknbi, which is how kernels get tagged for etherboot.
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| 11:33 | <johnny> as the xinetd files are often disabled by defalt too
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| 11:34 | <sbalneav> k, I'll add an effects
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| 11:34 | <Roel_> I've set disable = no
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| 11:34 | and still does exactly the same thing
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| 11:35 | <sbalneav> alkisg: There, now it's both.
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| 11:35 | <alkisg> sbalneav: uhm, maybe that should be ltsp(ubuntu), not LTSP (upstream) :D
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| 11:36 | * alkisg hates beurocracy... can't even spell it right :) | |
| 11:36 | vagrantc has joined #ltsp | |
| 11:37 | <johnny> how are you starting it??/
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| 11:37 | /etc/init.d/xinetd start must be used
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| 11:41 | <Roel_> yes I did
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| 11:42 | now connection refused is gone
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| 11:42 | and messages had this message :
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| 11:42 | Dec 14 17:41:49 prudence xinetd[4956]: FAIL: ldminfod address from=192.168.123.1
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| 11:42 | Dec 14 17:41:49 prudence xinetd[4921]: EXIT: ldminfod status=0 pid=4956 duration=0(sec)
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| 11:43 | <sbalneav> Hmmm, can't see where I specify ltsp ubuntu vs ltsp upstream
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| 11:43 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: in what context?
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| 11:43 | <sbalneav> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/487826
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| 11:44 | There's a mknbi bug
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| 11:44 | i've re-assigned it to mknbi, but we want to keep an "effects" ltsp
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| 11:44 | apparently, I've got it affecting lstp upstream, when really it should affect ltsp (ubuntu)
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| 11:47 | <GuilhermeCunha> hi
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| 11:47 | <sbalneav> Hello
| |
| 11:48 | <GuilhermeCunha> i need to mount the pendrive in the client of ltsp
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| 11:48 | and not have success
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| 11:48 | i'm is using the option 'LOCAL_STORAGE = Y' in lts.conf
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| 11:48 | and
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| 11:48 | loading the module ohci-usb
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| 11:48 | <sbalneav> ok, what version of LTSP are you using on what kind of server?
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| 11:49 | <GuilhermeCunha> i'm using the ubuntu 8.04 + ltsp-server-standalong
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| 11:49 | standalone
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| 11:49 | ltsp 5.0
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| 11:49 | :D
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| 11:49 | vagrantc has joined #ltsp | |
| 11:49 | <GuilhermeCunha> the lts.conf is in /var/lib/tftpboot/ ...
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| 11:50 | <sbalneav> GuilhermeCunha: Are your users in the fuse group?
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| 11:50 | <alkisg> sbalneav: it's on "also affects distribution" => nm I'll do it
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| 11:50 | <sbalneav> alkisg: ahhh, I did also affects project
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| 11:50 | ok, thanks
| |
| 11:50 | <GuilhermeCunha> sbalneav, not verifiead
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| 11:50 | verified ...
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| 11:50 | <sbalneav> So, verify it :)
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| 11:51 | They need to be in the fuse group
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| 11:51 | <GuilhermeCunha> how to add this users in fuse group w
| |
| 11:51 | ?
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| 11:51 | <sbalneav> The usual way one adds users to groups
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| 11:51 | <GuilhermeCunha> in /etc/group ?
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| 11:51 | ok
| |
| 11:51 | <alkisg> sbalneav: I can't remove upstream ltsp without marking it as invalid, do you have such an option (as the one that put it there?)
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| 11:51 | <sbalneav> either edit /etc/groups, or use the gui
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| 11:52 | alkisg: lemme see...
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| 11:53 | I can't seem to either.
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| 11:53 | Meh, leave it.
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| 11:53 | Good to know for us anyway
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| 11:54 | Since it does "affect" us here in upstream, since we'll answer questions on it :)
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| 11:54 | alexqwesa has joined #ltsp | |
| 11:55 | <alkisg> Sure... but warren complained about being botherd about "Ubuntu specific bugs" before :) Heh, sure, leave it.
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| 11:55 | <sbalneav> Then warren can remove it. :)
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| 11:55 | <alkisg> Heh ;)
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| 11:55 | <sbalneav> Itches, remember? :)
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| 11:56 | <alkisg> Right... so /me goes to scratch his own itch about using samba accounts instead of ldap :D
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| 11:56 | <sbalneav> I have a feeling I probably did something wrong, if warren complains, I'll mea culpa :)
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| 11:56 | alkisg: samba? or AD?
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| 11:56 | <alkisg> Nah... it's a launchpad fault
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| 11:56 | sbalneav: no, plain samba
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| 11:56 | <sbalneav> there a pam_samba module?
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| 11:57 | <alkisg> Looking to use 3-in-1 servers, for 3 types of labs: with ltsp, linux, and windows clients
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| 11:57 | There's winbind that has a pam module
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| 11:58 | If I can (also) put that in the live dvd I want to make, I'll also give it to teachers with windows-only labs :D
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| 11:58 | (it's much easier to ship a preconfigured samba server than configure a windows server from scratch)
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| 12:00 | <sbalneav> Yup, text files are much easier to deal with and pre-seed.
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| 12:01 | <johnny> alkisg, is /var/run/ldm-logout-action supposed to preexist ?
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| 12:01 | <alkisg> johnny: no
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| 12:01 | <_USUrPeR_> alkisg: thanks! :D Just saw the etherboot addition to launchpad
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| 12:02 | <johnny> but pehraps for debian/gentoo it should..
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| 12:02 | <alkisg> Well, sbalneav is the one to blame :)
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| 12:02 | <johnny> since we use tmpfs overlays unlike ubuntu
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| 12:02 | <alkisg> johnny: urm, so you bind-mount specific files, not dirs?
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| 12:02 | <johnny> we do both
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| 12:03 | <alkisg> And what about /var/run?
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| 12:03 | <johnny> i hate launchpad..
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| 12:03 | :(
| |
| 12:03 | stupid emails .. have to restrict based on the header
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| 12:03 | <alkisg> Isn't the whole /var/run/ dir on tmpfs?
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| 12:03 | <johnny> thought it should be.. then
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| 12:03 | alexqwesa has quit IRC | |
| 12:04 | <johnny> ah yes it is
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| 12:04 | <alkisg> I guess many apps wouldn't run if it wasn't...
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| 12:07 | <vagrantc> /var/run is fine.
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| 12:07 | <johnny> is that feature in any released version of ldm?
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| 12:08 | for ldm-logout-action that is?
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| 12:08 | roel_%irc.freenode.net: It just says somthing about /var/run/ldm-logout-action : no such file or directory... and then tries again
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| 12:08 | sounds like it shouldn't be fatal.. just wondered it there was a bug
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| 12:09 | <vagrantc> johnny: i think pieces of ldm-logout-action are released
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| 12:09 | <johnny> did i miss a file in packaging?
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| 12:10 | atm it just basically does ./configure && make && make install
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| 12:10 | not much else for ldm
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| 12:10 | yep.. this is all i do for install as well
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| 12:11 | src_install() {
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| 12:11 | emake DESTDIR="${D}" install
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| 12:11 | dosym ltsp /usr/share/ldm/themes/default
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| 12:11 | }
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| 12:13 | <alkisg> johnny: right, I put a `case "$(cat /var/run/ldm-logout-action)" in` which should either have a [ -e ] or a 2>/dev/null in it. Sorry for the warning, but it can be safely ignored.
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| 12:13 | <johnny> ah.. that would explain it
| |
| 12:13 | what's the command to start ldm manually?
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| 12:13 | i forget it..
| |
| 12:13 | is it like ldm vt7 :7 ?
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| 12:14 | <alkisg> johnny: but I guess that would only happen if one has a new ltsp package, and an OLD ldm package
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| 12:14 | Because otherwise the /var/run/ldm-logout-action file would always be created, even if empty
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| 12:14 | <johnny> created when?
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| 12:14 | <alkisg> In /usr/share/ldm/rc.d/X99-zzz-logout-action
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| 12:14 | <johnny> on boot? or on install?
| |
| 12:14 | ah
| |
| 12:14 | <alkisg> xprop -root -notype LDM_LOGOUT_ACTION | sed -ne 's/^LDM_LOGOUT_ACTION = "\(.*\)"/\1/p' > /var/run/ldm-logout-action || true
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| 12:14 | <johnny> ok.. so on boot
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| 12:15 | <alkisg> Right, on every logoff.
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| 12:15 | dtrask has joined #ltsp | |
| 12:16 | <alkisg> johnny: so if you get release #1224 of ldm, you shouldn't be seeing this warning.
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| 12:16 | <dtrask> sbalneav: you here?
| |
| 12:16 | ping sbalneav
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| 12:18 | <alkisg> Hmmm on second thought the file gets created on logoff... so before that, on the first time, the warning would show. I wonder why I didn't see it. Sorry!
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| 12:18 | dtrask has left #ltsp | |
| 12:19 | <vagrantc> stgraber: so, are you planning on deprecating your logout mechanism in favor of alkisg's ?
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| 12:19 | stgraber: or are there use cases for both?
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| 12:20 | <johnny> knipwim, are you about?
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| 12:20 | <knipwim> kinda
| |
| 12:21 | just making a versioned ldm ebuild
| |
| 12:21 | and hoping to solve roel's pproblem
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| 12:21 | and then bakc to work
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| 12:22 | how so?
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| 12:22 | <johnny> how so?
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| 12:23 | alexqwesa has joined #ltsp | |
| 12:23 | <knipwim> < johnny> knipwim, are you about?
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| 12:25 | <GuilhermeCunha> sbalneav, running
| |
| 12:25 | :D
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| 12:25 | Egyptian[Home] has quit IRC | |
| 12:25 | <GuilhermeCunha> works the pendrive
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| 12:25 | :D
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| 12:25 | thanks!!!!
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| 12:26 | <GuilhermeCunha> pendrive run in mode 'read-only'
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| 12:26 | alexqwesa has quit IRC | |
| 12:26 | alexqwesa has joined #ltsp | |
| 12:26 | <Roel_> sorry
| |
| 12:29 | installing ldmù revision 1224
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| 12:33 | <knipwim> Roel_: making an ebuild for revision 1216
| |
| 12:34 | after that one, the unstable glib and gtk+ are needed
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| 12:34 | <Roel_> do i need to rebuild the client without ~x86?
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| 12:35 | <knipwim> no
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| 12:36 | <Roel_> so what do I do then?
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| 12:36 | <knipwim> when the ebuild is in git, you need to reinstall ldm-2.0.50 on the client
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| 12:37 | <Roel_> emerge -av =ldm-2.0.50 ?
| |
| 12:37 | <knipwim> yup
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| 12:37 | <Roel_> great
| |
| 12:37 | <knipwim> it's not there yest
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| 12:37 | in a few minutes i hope
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| 12:37 | <Roel_> how do I resync the overlay?
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| 12:38 | <knipwim> layman -s ltsp ?
| |
| 12:38 | man layman
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| 12:38 | <Roel_> :) I'm not a very advanced user
| |
| 12:38 | but learning every day
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| 12:42 | <Roel__> I'm back ... stupid portuguese providers ***
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| 13:20 | * vagrantc fumbles around trying to summarize the changes to ldm from 2.0.48 to 2.0.52 | |
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| 14:29 | <_USUrPeR_> has anybody used fl_teachertool in ubuntu?
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| 14:29 | even better: has anybody gotten italc working in 9.10?
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| 14:33 | <sbalneav> I keep seeing people having trouble with iTalc, does it not work at all? Or just some parts of it?
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| 14:33 | <_USUrPeR_> sbalneav: there is not a shred of useful docs
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| 14:33 | sbalneav: I got it working in 9.04, but that was after much tribulation
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| 14:35 | <sbalneav> There an iTalc channel, or do we end up being the unofficial iTalc channel.
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| 14:36 | <_USUrPeR_> the latter :P
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| 14:36 | <Appiah> :)
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| 14:36 | <sbalneav> the same way we end up being the unofficial "everything that might possibly run under LTSP" channel :)
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| 14:36 | hm
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| 14:37 | <vagrantc> heh
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| 14:39 | <sbalneav> "Can someone help me with my video card? I know this guy who's married to the second cousin of a sysadmin who once set up LTSP 5 years ago!" :)
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| 14:40 | <CAN-o-SPAM> ask sbalneav i think he's a video card expert ... oh wait
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| 14:40 | <sbalneav> lol
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| 14:40 | <_USUrPeR_> :)
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| 14:40 | <CAN-o-SPAM> hehe :)
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| 14:41 | <sbalneav> Soooo, I know I'm going to regret asking this, but for the log's sake: what's NOT working with iTalc?
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| 14:41 | Doesn't connect, complete fubar, wha?
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| 14:43 | <_USUrPeR_> sbalneav: the installation process last documented for the program is from 8.04 (the furthest forward I can find). There *WAS* a lts.conf option for START_ITALC = True which does not appear to have functionality any more
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| 14:44 | <_USUrPeR_> though I may not be positive about the start_italc entry, because I may not have installed the program properly...
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| 14:45 | <sbalneav> _USUrPeR_: I sure can't find a START_ITALC anywhere in the code now.
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| 14:45 | might have been an extention added by installing italc before.
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| 14:45 | Where'd you see the italc docs?
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| 14:45 | <_USUrPeR_> it's possible
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| 14:46 | i *think* it was something required for starting the italc client on boot with a thinclient
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| 14:46 | err thin client
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| 15:10 | <vagrantc> Gadi: so ltsp-remoteapps should be in ltsp-client's /usr/sbin, and ltsp-remoteappsd should be in ltsp-client's /usr/share/ltsp/ ?
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| 15:13 | <Gadi> vagrantc: hey! (sorry, Im all over the place...) is that what I wrote in the commit message? :)
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| 15:13 | <vagrantc> Gadi: the commit message just says what to do with ltsp-remoteappsd
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| 15:13 | <Gadi> I think prolly /usr/bin
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| 15:13 | not /usr/sbin
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| 15:13 | as it runs as user
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| 15:14 | <vagrantc> but both run from the thin client?
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| 15:14 | <Gadi> nope
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| 15:14 | *d runs on the server
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| 15:14 | <vagrantc> oh.
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| 15:14 | <Gadi> it is just the inverse of localappsd
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| 15:14 | remoteappsd gets scp'd on login
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| 15:14 | to a tmpdir
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| 15:14 | <vagrantc> yeah, but it's making my head swim to figure out what goes where :)
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| 15:14 | <Gadi> on the server
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| 15:14 | (random tmpdir)
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| 15:15 | * vagrantc head spins faster | |
| 15:15 | <Gadi> hehe
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| 15:15 | maybe reading the code is easier
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| 15:15 | :)
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| 15:17 | <vagrantc> they're both installed on the thin client ...
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| 15:18 | <vagrantc> ok!
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| 15:18 | <alkisg> _USUrPeR_, sbalneav: START_ITALC is in the italc package, not in ltsp. Italc puts it in /usr/share/ltsp/xinitrc.d/I15-italc
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| 15:18 | <vagrantc> i *think* i get it now.
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| 15:18 | <_USUrPeR_> ?!?
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| 15:19 | <vagrantc> that's *why* we have hook directories. so that other packages can add functionality.
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| 15:19 | <_USUrPeR_> alkisg: oh. muy interesante
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| 15:19 | <sbalneav> So, I got this IM from Jordan:
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| 15:19 | have you been watching the GNU vs. GNOME face off?
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| 15:20 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: ooooh!
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| 15:20 | * vagrantc fires up the popcorn maker | |
| 15:20 | <sbalneav> Anyone know anything about this? Miguel de Icaza and Stallman mudwrestling?
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| 15:20 | <_USUrPeR_> Jordan the country? It's best to remain neutral in that situation...
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| 15:20 | <sbalneav> I'd pay MONEY to see that!
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| 15:21 | _USUrPeR_: laserjock :)
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| 15:21 | <_USUrPeR_> I was not aware that there was any contention...
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| 15:21 | <sbalneav> I'm giggling around, but I can't see anything anywhere. I'm hoping he pings me back with an addy.
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| 15:22 | Dollars to doughnuts it has something to do with mono
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| 15:24 | <johnny> it had to do with richard stallman being upset about people promoting non free software (including vmware) on planet gnome
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| 15:26 | <sbalneav> Quoting:
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| 15:26 | yeah, RMS said that as a GNU project that Planet GNOME should be censored to not have positive mentions of proprietary apps
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| 15:26 | to which Lefty said "maybe we shouldn't be a GNU project then"
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| 15:28 | http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/2009/12/13/to-gnu-or-not-to-gnu/
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| 15:31 | <vagrantc> how can someone so right be so wrong? :)
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| 15:34 | <_USUrPeR_> oh snap.
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| 15:34 | <johnny> yeah.. richard stallman sometimes needs to learn to shut his trap
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| 15:35 | especially for a planet side that includes many personal workings of the developers..
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| 15:35 | the planet isn't just about gnome software, but the lives of the gnome developers..
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| 15:35 | which in some cases.. involves proprietary software..
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| 15:36 | <vagrantc> a positive revieiw of proprietary software can give free software a checklist of things to do better.
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| 15:38 | <_USUrPeR_> sounds more exciting than a congressional debate ;)
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| 15:38 | nobody even dropped a "yo momma" or anything
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| 15:38 | * _USUrPeR_ goes back to watching jerry springer | |
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| 15:39 | <vagrantc> don't get Gadi started
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| 15:39 | <_USUrPeR_> I think I want to now...
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| 15:39 | I've never seen him "started" :)
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| 16:44 | <dmarkey> Gadi: hey there
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| 16:45 | <vagrantc> oh, i should upload a new version of ltsp-docs one of these days
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| 17:23 | <kusznir_> Hi all: two questions. 1) whenver my server reboots, all my thin clients crash the next time someone logs in and back out. (eg, when it restarts ldm). Has squashfs errors...Is there any way to fix this, or is this normal?
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| 17:23 | (note that they do NOT crash immediately after a reboot, they crash after the server reboots AND ldm restarts.
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| 17:34 | <jhutchins_lt> kusznir_: It would seem like good practice to log everybody out and probably shut down the clients for the reboot, but definitely restart the clients after.
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| 17:35 | <kusznir_> I let users know and generally wait until they log out, but the real killer is having to restart all the thin clients...they're spread out over multiple rooms...Gets to be a real pain to walk around resetting each thin client. If I rebuild the disk (ltsp-update-image) its not as invasive as simply rebooting the server.
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| 17:45 | <kusznir_> Ok...question #2: some programs (most notably inkscape) take for ever to launch on a thin client (we're talking in the minutes here)...what's up with that / how can I fix that?
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| 20:36 | <Ahmuck-Jr> question ... http://www.pcdiskclone.com/pcnetworkclone.htm - is using network booting, either pxe, or cdrom then pxe. this product uses linux and uses pmagic, as well as others. is there a way to tell if it's ltsp or drbl?
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| 21:31 | <madcat> Hi anyone here? I've a question how do you automatically run local app on thin client without typing ltsp-localapps (program)?
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| 21:32 | I have 20 clients, and what I did, I edited the menu of each desktop, to point to ltsp-localapp (program), but it's very tedious, I know there has to be some other way!
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| 21:46 | <epaphus> Hello guys, Iam very interested in LTSP in ubuntu. And iam just going to ask my question direct:
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| 21:52 | <epaphus> We have a LAN of 40 computers, and we want to control things better if possible with PCs without HDs. However users constantly screw up the OS or misconfigure things.. or many many weird things always happen. Firefox acts up.. so.. with all this weird things users exposed their PCs
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| 21:53 | can LTSP provide me any advantage over feeding them a X session to 1 single server that manages all the processes for them??
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| 21:54 | <Ahmuck-Jr> i use ltsp
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| 21:54 | <epaphus> Iam afraid that with multiple instance sof firefox (which they used the most) they will make all the users freeze.
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| 21:55 | or 1 problem with 1 app would be a problem for everybody
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| 21:55 | and then I would have to restart the server and boot everybody off
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| 21:55 | Ahmuck, ..?
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| 21:57 | <Ahmuck-Jr> epaphus: what kind of clients would you have in pc power?
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| 21:57 | <epaphus> Ahmuck, sorry can you rephrase your question? what kind of apps?
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| 21:57 | <Ahmuck-Jr> epaphus: the nice thing with ltsp is that you can create a server, tell the clients to boot via the network and not even change the hard drive
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| 21:57 | so you can test these things before hand
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| 21:57 | <epaphus> right.
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| 21:58 | <Ahmuck-Jr> epaphus: processor speed, network speed, memory on clients, etc.
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| 21:58 | <epaphus> but that doesnt answer my question when its actually being deployed.
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| 21:58 | oh.. in that case I can have all the best. Quad Core CPU server... and Atom 2GB dual core CPUs
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| 21:58 | all with gigabit nics
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| 21:59 | Will a problem with 1 app affect every user running that app?
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| 22:01 | <epaphus> Ahmuck-Jr,
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| 22:02 | <Ahmuck-Jr> yes
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| 22:03 | epaphus: it doesn't here
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| 22:03 | i've found it best to run firefox/flash as a local app
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| 22:03 | the programs i use are openoffice, scribus, etc.
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| 22:04 | <epaphus> in a perfect world... I would just feed an ISO (live cd) to all my clients.. and thus run everything locally but save files on a NFS... but i dont think that exists or the project that has it DRBL seems dead :(
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| 22:04 | Ahmuck-Jr, how is it possible to run firefox locally and the rest of the apps on the server?
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| 22:05 | <Ahmuck-Jr> drbl is dead?
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| 22:07 | <madcat> epaphus I'm running LTSP on 20 clients all using atom dual core 2gb
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| 22:07 | <epaphus> Ahmuck-Jr, when you see ancient help guides on the net... and lot of support on a foreign lang.. thats the feeling you get.
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| 22:07 | <Ahmuck-Jr> heh, that's linux
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| 22:08 | but there are up to date guides out there
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| 22:08 | and i envy your setup
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| 22:08 | <epaphus> madcat, and how do you deal when those 20 clients sharing 1 app that crashes or becomes unstable..?
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| 22:08 | my users are very CPU intensive.. they will open 10-20 fitrefox windows
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| 22:08 | they demand a lot of production
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| 22:09 | <madcat> Um, I'm not an expert to this, but 20 clients, I've set them up to run firefox locally so it won't be on the server
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| 22:09 | using just 1 app
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| 22:10 | So I think what LTSP does is give out instances of those apps to them so they can run locally and utilize some of the local client resources
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| 22:10 | <Ahmuck-Jr> correct
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| 22:10 | firefox running locally is going to use local memory
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| 22:11 | <madcat> It's obvious when I tried to run a flash video there's an improvement...
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| 22:11 | <Ahmuck-Jr> however one needs to install firefox and flash locally
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| 22:11 | epaphus: what distro?
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| 22:11 | <epaphus> i havent decided, but i was thinking ubuntu
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| 22:12 | well in that case I wouldnt because i want to try to get rid of the HDs
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| 22:13 | <Ahmuck-Jr> u could use the hd as local swap
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| 22:13 | is this a classroom environment? school?
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| 22:15 | <epaphus> bussiness research dept
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| 22:15 | <madcat> nope I don't have a hd
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| 22:15 | <epaphus> madcat, then?
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| 22:15 | <madcat> all these things happen in the server
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| 22:16 | the reason we implemented LTSP is because of electricity costs, ease of management, security
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| 22:16 | all our users just use it for basic email, surf, and a little youtube for our marketing videos
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| 22:17 | although, we haven't got the chance to use gigabit, as it's very expensive!
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| 22:17 | I'm sure it will be faster
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| 22:18 | intel atoms cost us about $250 per workstation
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| 22:19 | <Ahmuck-Jr> 150.00
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| 22:19 | <madcat> :) damn!
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| 22:21 | <Ahmuck-Jr> http://tinyurl.com/y86447k
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| 22:21 | actually, cheaper
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| 22:21 | those are the 230, they used to have the 330
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| 22:22 | epaphus: many edubuntu users are using ltsp
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| 22:22 | <madcat> oh yeah, we're using 330 that's why, whew!
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| 22:23 | <Ahmuck-Jr> 2g ram
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| 22:23 | no cdrom or hard drive
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| 22:27 | <epaphus> how frequent do you guys have to reboot the server in case of problems?
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| 22:28 | <Ahmuck-Jr> i never reboot
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| 22:29 | not for client problems anyway
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| 22:36 | * epaphus looks at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DisklessUbuntuHowto | |
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| 23:00 | <madcat> bye guys
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| 23:11 | <sbalneav> Evening all, epaphus if you have any questions, feel free to ask
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| 23:12 | <Ahmuck> i believe it's a local apps question
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| 23:12 | <epaphus> thank you sbalneav
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| 23:14 | I think that with the "devils" my users are.. I iam going to try to boot their OS from an NFS and PXE.. rather then go for ltsp at the moment. So that if there is any memoryleaks/ misbehaviour over a weird app I dont have the other users affected
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| 23:14 | i just found out its possible to do a NFS boot with PXE.. pretty interesting
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| 23:14 | the idea off course is to do a diskless boot up for each client, preferebly.
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| 23:15 | also i think that doing an NFS boot up requires less read/writes on the TCP side once its booted ... rather then LTSP which is continous.
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| 23:16 | <alkisg> LTSP can use NFS
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| 23:16 | But maybe you mean fat clients instead of thin clients
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| 23:17 | <epaphus> thats right
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| 23:17 | <sbalneav> epaphus: LTSP has always been a compromise between providing use for people with lower powered clients that won't run full desktops by themselves, and people who want to run full fledged workstations, just without a hard drive.
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| 23:18 | <alkisg> Well e.g. Ahmuck posted a link in #edubuntu with a method to have fat clients using NFS. If you'
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| 23:18 | <Ahmuck> well, that's what epaphus posted
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| 23:18 | <alkisg> If you're talking about that, you don't save yourself from any administration...
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| 23:18 | <Ahmuck> i re-posted it
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| 23:18 | <alkisg> OK, I wasn't here before
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| 23:18 | So it's just like having a different hard disk for each machine
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| 23:19 | With LTSP you just have to administer one machine
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| 23:20 | <epaphus> Sure i do.. because each time they reboot alkisg .. they need to load the OS fresh.
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| 23:20 | if i want to push an upgrade.. i upgrade my nfs root.. and people next time they boot will get it
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| 23:20 | <alkisg> Nope, that won't work
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| 23:20 | NFS is mounted read-write in that page
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| 23:21 | Each client will need its own export
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| 23:21 | <epaphus> i think i would have to play on with read only mounting of some sort then
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| 23:21 | <alkisg> I did a fat client implementation myself this summer, mounting clients read-only over NFS
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| 23:22 | I didn't even use a chroot or a second image, all clients used the server installation
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| 23:22 | <epaphus> alkisg, did it go well? hmm
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| 23:22 | <alkisg> So whatever program was installed on the server, was on the clients as well
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| 23:22 | <epaphus> well for ease of administration.. i would do the second root filesystem
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| 23:23 | <alkisg> Yes it went pretty well, I just had to bind-mount every file that needs to be writable
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| 23:23 | <sbalneav> Ahmuck: Yeah, that looks about right for Jaunty, localapps wasn't fully complete by jaunty-time
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| 23:23 | it's much simpler for Karmic
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| 23:24 | <Ahmuck> ah, that's right, i'm on karmic, not jaunty
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| 23:24 | * Ahmuck is tooo tired today | |
| 23:24 | <epaphus> alkisg, i didnt understand you last statement. was that ironic? :P
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| 23:24 | <alkisg> No no
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| 23:25 | When you mount NFS root read only, you'll need to have a tmpfs over some of the files, otherwise it won't boot
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| 23:25 | So the difficult part is to find out which places need to be writable
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| 23:25 | <epaphus> so thats where it can get tricky
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| 23:25 | hmm
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| 23:25 | <alkisg> But then I thought of another way
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| 23:25 | <sbalneav> I think that page actually uses a RW NFS mount.
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| 23:25 | <epaphus> all the . directories
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| 23:26 | i guess
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| 23:26 | in their home directory
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| 23:26 | sbalneav, what page?
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| 23:26 | <alkisg> sbalneav: yes, but it does that for a single client
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| 23:26 | <sbalneav> Which means you need a separate chroot for each thin client
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| 23:26 | <alkisg> You can't have multiple clients booting over the same nfs read-write root
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| 23:26 | Right
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| 23:26 | <sbalneav> yeah
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| 23:26 | epaphus: hold on, I'll paste the link
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| 23:26 | <epaphus> otherwise each night I recopy my entire filesystem from a backup.. and i always keep fresh
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| 23:27 | <sbalneav> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DisklessUbuntuHowto
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| 23:27 | <alkisg> epaphus: Then I thought about using nbd instead of nfs, and it was much faster AND easier
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| 23:27 | It went like this: the server is dual boot, with 2 partitions
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| 23:27 | 1 partition = server, second partition = client image
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| 23:27 | So you prepare the clients by booting the second partition of the server
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| 23:28 | When you're done, you boot the first partition of the server, and export the second partition with nbd
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| 23:28 | <johnny> i wonder about drbd
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| 23:28 | <alkisg> drbl? it sucks
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| 23:28 | <epaphus> right, thats what i said.. drbl seems dead
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| 23:28 | <johnny> whatever just made it into the linux kernel
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| 23:28 | it just made it..
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| 23:28 | this release
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| 23:29 | something must not be dead :)
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| 23:29 | or next release rather
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| 23:29 | also nouveau :)
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| 23:29 | <alkisg> Made what? drbl is mostly a set of script that are not even properly packaged
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| 23:29 | <johnny> no
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| 23:29 | then i must be talking about something else..
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| 23:29 | it's some network block device over tcp
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| 23:30 | <sbalneav> Years ago, LTSP actually funded some work with ENBD
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| 23:30 | <Ahmuck> http://drbl.sourceforge.net/
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| 23:30 | <johnny> sbalneav, do you know about this thing?
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| 23:30 | <sbalneav> but IIRC, it never really went anywhere
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| 23:30 | <johnny> Ahmuck, alkisg no.. i'm not talking about that
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| 23:31 | not at all
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| 23:31 | <Ahmuck> so, back to epaphus, discussion help you with a decision
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| 23:31 | ?
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| 23:31 | <johnny> i wasn't talking about drbl
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| 23:31 | but some network block device driver that entered the kernel this release
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| 23:31 | <sbalneav> iirc, doesn't drbl have everything in the initramfs?
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| 23:31 | <johnny> sbalneav, i'm not talking about that that
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| 23:31 | i'm talking about drbd or whatever..
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| 23:31 | <sbalneav> lol
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| 23:31 | <johnny> they are the ones who brought it up
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| 23:31 | <sbalneav> lololol
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| 23:32 | <epaphus> Ahmuck, absolutely :) i now have a lot more options
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| 23:32 | <sbalneav> drbd drbl
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| 23:32 | hold on, lemme google drdb
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| 23:32 | <johnny> i think that is the name.. i can't recall..
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| 23:32 | <Ahmuck> btw, i have a question. i found a product that uses oss software some of which i belive is gpl but does not appear to present a license notice anywhere? does one first inform the vendor and then the authors?
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| 23:32 | <johnny> yep.. that's it sbalneav
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| 23:32 | <sbalneav> DRBD® refers to block devices designed as a building block to form high availability (HA) clusters. This is done by mirroring a whole block device via an assigned network. DRBD can be understood as network based raid-1.
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| 23:32 | <johnny> drbd
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| 23:32 | ah
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| 23:33 | <sbalneav> That's from the web page.
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| 23:33 | Looks like it's a clustering thing
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| 23:33 | which is vaguely analogous to thin client.
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| 23:34 | People have asked us why we don't use ataoe, or scsioe, etc.
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| 23:34 | The answer is, as always "we greatfully accept patches!" :)
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| 23:35 | <alkisg> Anyway, I saw that fat clients were easier to implement over a read-write root. NBD has an option to provide a read write root over a read only partition, by using a tmpfs while exporting it. So that was the easiest way to have fat clients.
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| 23:36 | If DRBD also supports exporting read only partitions as read-write, it'll be nice.
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| 23:36 | <Ahmuck> fat clients over read-write root vs ltsp thin clients?
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| 23:36 | * sbalneav looks for nubae | |
| 23:36 | <sbalneav> Nubae wrote a plugin for ltsp that does fat clients
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| 23:36 | <Ahmuck> it was an edubutnu plugin though iirc
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| 23:37 | but the script was modifiable
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| 23:37 | <sbalneav> I keep bugging him to just work with us to upstream it.
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| 23:37 | With the idea that once he does, we make HIM an LTSP developer as well
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| 23:37 | alkisg: You've had some experience with how easy THAT process can be :)
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| 23:38 | <alkisg> Yup, if one likes lobster and can code, he's automatically an ltsp developer :D
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| 23:41 | <sbalneav> We're a fairly inclusive bunch :)
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| 23:47 | <sbalneav> Headin to bed. Be on tomorrow, same bat time, same bat channel
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| 23:47 | night all
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| 23:47 | <Ahmuck> so alkisg ur running fat clients?
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| 23:48 | <alkisg> Ahmuck: no it was a proof of concept
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| 23:48 | I decided that I didn't want fat clients because greek schools don't have good enough networks for them
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| 23:48 | Night sbalneav
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| 23:52 | <Ahmuck> the concept worked however
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| 23:52 | the concept was not really ltsp
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| 23:53 | if one had a gigabyte network, nics, some fat clients and a quad server would you choose ltsp or your concept
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| 23:56 | <alkisg> New clients? Dual core etc?
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| 23:56 | And how many?
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| 23:56 | <epaphus> alkisg, hmm?
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| 23:58 | <Ahmuck> http://tinyurl.com/yd69g6v
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| 23:58 | 10
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| 23:59 | quad core server
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| 23:59 | this is what i orignally looked at
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| 23:59 | clients about 130.00
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