IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 7 June 2009 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:18 | <alkisg> stgraber, ping?
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| 10:24 | <Gadi> !ubuntu
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| 10:24 | <ltspbot> Gadi: "ubuntu" is a Debian based GNU/Linux distrubution that includes a Ubuntu specific version of LTSP. It can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org. to install ltsp on ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
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| 10:47 | <alkisg> Gadi, you may also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu to learn more about Ubuntu :P :D
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| 11:19 | <Gadi> alkisg: thx
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| 11:19 | :)
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| 11:21 | <alkisg> `eval` is blessed... is allows for parsing files that also contain variables (similar to HEREDOCs) with a single line:
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| 11:21 | echo "$(eval "echo \"$(grep -v '^##' /etc/ltsp/dnsmasq.conf.in)\"")" > "/etc/dnsmasq.d/ltsp-server-pnp.conf"
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| 11:21 | Took me 10 minutes to find the correct syntax, though :D
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| 11:24 | <Gadi> hehe
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| 11:25 | * Gadi is preparing an LTSP presentation and needed the link references | |
| 11:25 | <Gadi> amazing how quickly one can get to 18 slides
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| 11:25 | :P
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| 11:56 | <erieslab> Is there a line for discussion, or it is ok to just begin with questions?
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| 11:57 | <Gadi> hehe, erieslab, just ask (though there are fewer folks here than usual)
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| 11:57 | <erieslab> ok thanks....
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| 11:57 | I just installed edu onto 10 computers I intend to use as clients
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| 11:58 | <Gadi> edu?
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| 11:58 | <erieslab> I am ordereding whatevery i need from tigerdirect Monday AM
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| 11:58 | edubuntu sorry
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| 11:58 | from tiger I intend to build the server
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| 11:58 | also running edubuntu (server version)
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| 11:59 | My question is what do I need to order?
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| 11:59 | <Gadi> well, so far, you are not doing LTSP at all
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| 11:59 | <erieslab> I have a decent 8GB barebones kit in mind
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| 11:59 | <Gadi> if you intend to use LTSP,
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| 11:59 | <erieslab> correct all standalone installed OS onto a 10Gb HDD
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| 11:59 | <Gadi> you don't install anything on the clients
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| 11:59 | and can even rip out their hard drives
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| 12:00 | so, do you intend to use LTSP?
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| 12:00 | <erieslab> I know but while I await the server to be delivered, running and tested, the employees need access to open office
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| 12:00 | yes I want 100% of everything coming from the server within 3 weeks
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| 12:00 | <Gadi> ah
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| 12:00 | <erieslab> obviously no clue what I am doing I only know that Linux is the best option
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| 12:01 | <Gadi> for 10 employees, 8GB is certainly way more than enough
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| 12:01 | <erieslab> Good then maybe youtibe will work for them lol
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| 12:01 | <Gadi> what kind of clients are they?
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| 12:01 | <erieslab> youtube would not work fast enough using RDP with Windows
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| 12:02 | PIII's with 390mb SDRAM
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| 12:02 | give or take
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| 12:02 | <Gadi> if you want youtube, your best bet is to make use of LTSP's LOCAL_APPS feature
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| 12:02 | <erieslab> I could not afford the pretty WYSE terminals
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| 12:02 | <Gadi> and run firefox locally
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| 12:03 | <erieslab> $40 a seat through craigslist this way, I just think this way is going to involve alot more time and research :)
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| 12:03 | <Gadi> thats what we're here for
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| 12:03 | :)
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| 12:04 | <erieslab> These you would suggest should be hardwired to a big switch rather than using a wifi router and wireless cards?
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| 12:04 | <Gadi> yes
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| 12:04 | LTSP does not support wireless
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| 12:04 | <erieslab> T-1000 not 100 correct?
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| 12:04 | <Gadi> to the client
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| 12:04 | <erieslab> I AM GLAD I CAME HERE TODAY!!!!
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| 12:04 | I almost bought the wifi cards
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| 12:04 | <Gadi> and if you are pushing bandwidth, you dont want wireless
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| 12:05 | <erieslab> I assumed it would be like 54G/10 seats not looking pretty
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| 12:05 | 54mbs
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| 12:05 | <Gadi> thats bandwidth, not throughput
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| 12:05 | it gets uglier
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| 12:05 | :)
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| 12:05 | <erieslab> bandwidth would be a premium would it not?
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| 12:05 | ohhh I see
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| 12:06 | <Gadi> LTSP uses X11, by default, which is too heavy for wireless, and PXE booting does not support wireless, either
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| 12:06 | you would have to use a wireless bridge at the clients if you wanted to get it going
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| 12:07 | and use a protocol with better compression and persistence
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| 12:07 | <erieslab> So I essentially would be getting rid of my current router, and the server combined with something like a 16 port switch would be replacing the router?
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| 12:08 | <Gadi> you could do it that way, or simply have 2 NICs in your server, and connect one to the router to get out to the internet and the other to the thin client switch
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| 12:08 | <erieslab> ok the switch....
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| 12:09 | If i buy a 16 port switch but still want my wifi for the partner's laptops or IP cameras... can I simply plug my current router into one of the 16 ports on the switch?
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| 12:10 | <Gadi> is it a wifi router?
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| 12:10 | <erieslab> yes
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| 12:10 | <Gadi> so, just do:
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| 12:10 | <erieslab> btw I do greatly appreciate all this help :)
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| 12:11 | <Gadi> internet -> wifi router -> NIC1 on server -> server -> NIC0 on server -> switch -> clients
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| 12:11 | so, the wifi/NIC1 are one subnet, and NIC0/clients are another
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| 12:11 | <erieslab> ok so the server's MB should have dual Gigabit then you suggest or should I have 2 very seperate aftermarket nic cards?
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| 12:11 | <Gadi> either
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| 12:12 | no difference
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| 12:12 | hard to find a server MB without 2 nics
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| 12:12 | :)
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| 12:12 | <erieslab> ok I was just worried about quality, but if it is not an issue...
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| 12:13 | ok so to the clients... I am sure I will have to setup some scripts or a shortcut for them to logon
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| 12:13 | is that all variable based on the distro?
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| 12:14 | <Gadi> only openSuse differs
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| 12:14 | for everyone else, its: ltsp-build-client
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| 12:14 | once you install ltsp
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| 12:14 | <erieslab> ok, that is a commercial / opensuse I mean?
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| 12:14 | <Gadi> !ubuntu
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| 12:14 | <ltspbot> Gadi: "ubuntu" is a Debian based GNU/Linux distrubution that includes a Ubuntu specific version of LTSP. It can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org. to install ltsp on ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
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| 12:14 | <erieslab> excellent
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| 12:15 | <Gadi> no, opensuse uses LTSP upstream but their own commands and such for creating the chroot environment
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| 12:15 | <erieslab> sounds too complex I must stay as mainstream as possible hehe
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| 12:16 | citrix xenserver, looks pretty. With Linux can much of the same things be done?
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| 12:16 | I can not do $275 per seat, I mights as well buy everyone their PC for that price
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| 12:17 | <erieslab> allocating RAM and CPU to each seat, publishing desktop icons once to all clients rather than moving from chair to chair 10 times?
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| 12:18 | For example if I were to install Skype, can I simply deply onto the server for all 10 thin clients?
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| 12:18 | hello otavio
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| 12:19 | <erieslab> hello alkisg
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| 12:19 | <alkisg> Hello
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| 12:24 | erieslab (read the logs): for ubuntu, installation on the server would be much easier if you used the alternate cd.
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| 12:24 | What speed are your client NICs? 100mbps or 1Gbps?
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| 12:25 | <erieslab> I have burned the alternate cd already, the clients are PIII's so I assume10/100
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| 12:25 | I am here to determine what hardware I need to purchase for the server, such as switches/routers and so on
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| 12:26 | I have installed the server on my laptop, but realized I can't connect to test the clients unless I have the networking devices, I wanna order it all in one pop
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| 12:26 | <alkisg> erieslab: read a little about the flow-control problem, which would make all your network function at 100mbps (instead of 1gbps) if you don't buy the correct server NIC or switch: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FlowControl
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| 12:26 | <erieslab> ok
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| 12:28 | <alkisg> (I got hit by that and it took me some months to realize that there was a way for my network to work at 1gbps instead of 100mbps)
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| 12:28 | <erieslab> the individuals using the thin clients are mentally disabled. I am not too concerned about them stressing the network or the server for that matter. So would it be best to buy a 100 switch rather than the Gigabit?
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| 12:29 | <alkisg> No no. Basically you need a switch with *at least* one gigabit port,
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| 12:29 | and a NIC for the server that supports ethtool. E.g. realtek-based NIC don't support that.
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| 12:29 | <erieslab> ok I seen so the server can dish it out at 1000 then?
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| 12:30 | not saying the clients all need to receive at 1000 correct?
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| 12:30 | <alkisg> (or, you can buy a switch which would be managed, and disable flow control from the switch - but that would be expensive).
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| 12:30 | <erieslab> ok
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| 12:30 | <alkisg> 100mbps for each client are enough for youtube, but they are not enough for smooth dvd playback, a few frames will get dropped
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| 12:31 | <erieslab> youtube I assure is the extreme example of bandwidth consumption in this building :) Usually it is merely Google Docs
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| 12:32 | I am curious about the local apps concept, can that be regulated or controlled via the server?
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| 12:32 | <alkisg> Keep in mind that with those clients you won't be able to watch youtube fullscreen (due to the not-so-linux-friendly flash player)
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| 12:32 | <erieslab> For things such as firefox or flash I am interested, but worry that I would have people damaging firefox everyday
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| 12:33 | <alkisg> With localapps you would be able if you have good enough clients (and yes that's controlled from the server)... what CPU do the clients have?
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| 12:33 | <erieslab> Celeron's with 390 RAM
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| 12:33 | All ran Win 2000 until lastnight
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| 12:34 | <alkisg> MHz? 600/700?
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| 12:34 | <erieslab> I think 900
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| 12:34 | some are 1.2
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| 12:34 | <alkisg> I don't think they're good enough for full screen flash playback. You may use localapps, but still, full screen youtube won't be smooth.
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| 12:35 | Do you have linux installed now? How does full screen flash go?
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| 12:35 | <erieslab> no network connection on any of these clients because I have not yet bought the server
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| 12:36 | I am a bit frustrated I didn't buy the server first to be honest
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| 12:36 | <alkisg> OK. Try without localapps first, and if that doesn't satisfy you, you try localapps afterwards.
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| 12:36 | <erieslab> I am ordering it first thing in the morning
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| 12:36 | ok will do
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| 12:36 | will local apps hinder the amount of control the admin would have?
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| 12:36 | <alkisg> Nope
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| 12:37 | <erieslab> Citrix has this thing where the admin can 'publish desktop content' such as links, shortcuts, desktop wallpaper and files, all while allocating RAM and CPU to each client on an as needed basis... Could these same things be done with a Linux system?
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| 12:39 | <alkisg> I tried cytrix, and I didn't like it at all because it didn't have a desktop
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| 12:39 | I prefer the users to see a standard desktop environment, with the menus, the taskbar etc.
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| 12:40 | <erieslab> yes
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| 12:40 | <alkisg> You may modify menus for all users in linux, or put shortcuts, wallpaper etc
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| 12:40 | Gnome has gconf, which supports "mandatory settings", so you may even lock down most settings.
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| 12:40 | <erieslab> awesome
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| 12:41 | edubuntu is a gnome based system is it not?
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| 12:41 | <alkisg> Yes, it's actually an add-on to ubuntu, not a seperate distro.
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| 12:41 | <erieslab> ok
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| 12:41 | you know your stuff
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| 12:41 | thank you for all your help
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| 12:42 | I am certain I will be back when the server is together Wednesday
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| 12:42 | <alkisg> Heh... I got through the same things last two years, so I had to learn some basics :)
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| 12:43 | <erieslab> I have never run any server or set them up, but have used several distros as desktop systems. I hope I have a decent base so not to get lost LOL
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| 12:43 | Gadi thank you for your help too.
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| 12:44 | <alkisg> erieslab: how are you going to boot your clients from the network?
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| 12:44 | I don't think they're able to pxe boot (as you describe them), so you'll need gpxe, have you looked into it?
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| 12:44 | <erieslab> I do not yet know, for now Edubuntu is simply installed onto the hard drives
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| 12:44 | the bios tries to load a pxe
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| 12:45 | but I did not notice if it was on 100% of the systems that this happened
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| 12:45 | at least 80% did have pxe on the screen at bootup
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| 12:45 | but no network connection'
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| 12:45 | <alkisg> OK, some more links for you: http://etherboot.org/wiki/index.php https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/grubgpxe
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| 12:45 | <erieslab> they were off-lease from a local school
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| 12:45 | so i hope they will be simple
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| 12:46 | <erieslab> with that grubgpxe would the local apps still be available as an option?
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| 12:47 | <alkisg> Yes, network booting has nothing to do with how localapps function after the os loads
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| 12:47 | <erieslab> awesome
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| 12:47 | <alkisg> Localapps = the clients *don't have* a hard disk
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| 12:47 | Localapps = they just use cpu+ram from the clients
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| 12:48 | <erieslab> now since I already have edubuntu installed, would it be possible to simply load a script at startup that logs the client into the server at full screen? So it 'feels' like a real pc, like what they are used to?
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| 12:49 | they all have 20GB hard drives, it seems a waste to throw it away lol
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| 12:51 | <alkisg> Well, LTSP = no hard disk on the clients.
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| 12:51 | (mostly)
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| 12:52 | <erieslab> ok i have a really good question here... using Grubgpxe could I give each patient here their own floppy.... Then no matter what seat they take by inserting their floppy it could load their own system (desktop, hard drive storage space from server, shortcuts etc)?
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| 12:53 | a simple login script that the disc would act as their login?
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| 12:53 | redneck smart cards LOL
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| 12:54 | <alkisg> In LTSP, it doesn't matter on which PC the users sit. They'll always see their desktop/data if they logon with their username.
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| 12:55 | <erieslab> I am sorry I wasn't clear enough, I meant can the boot floppy contain their login credentials or is simply the gateway?
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| 12:55 | mentally disabled ;)
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| 12:55 | we will be writing their passwords on the floppy, talk about lax security
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| 12:57 | <alkisg> I don't think that's implemented. But you may specify that each PC autologins with a specific user (so that's one specific user per PC) - if that suits your needs...
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| 12:57 | <erieslab> will work :)
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| 12:58 | I must get out of here, my wife is now angry at me and hungry
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| 12:58 | Thank you all so much!
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| 12:58 | I will be camping here soon
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| 12:59 | <alkisg> Bye :)
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| 16:09 | <alkisg> vagrantc, stgraber: a packaging question, please? I've made a "ltsp-server-pnp" package which uses dnsmasq and supposedly works out of the box no matter how many NICs the LTSP servers has, if there are external dhcp servers or not, etc.
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| 16:09 | The question is: When I install it, I want it to replace ltsp-server-standalone and remove dhcp3-server, so that ports 68/69 are open for dnsmasq to use. I've tried "Conflicts: ltsp-server-standalone" and "Replaces: ltsp-server-standalone", but it didn't remove it... What's the correct way to do that?
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| 16:10 | <vagrantc> alkisg: Conflicts, Replaces and Provides, if it really implements all of the functionality.
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| 16:11 | alkisg: though you'd also want to confict with dhcp3-server and tftpd-hpa.
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| 16:11 | alkisg: if you really want it to remove those.
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| 16:12 | alkisg: or whatever other packages ltsp-server-standalone depends on that you'd want alternatives to
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| 16:12 | <alkisg> vagrantc: So: Conflicts: dhcp3-server, ltsp-server-standalone, Replaces: ltsp-server-standalone, Provides: ltsp-server-standalone ? (I don't want to remove tftpd-hpa)
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| 16:12 | Can I use "provides" with another package name?
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| 16:12 | <vagrantc> alkisg: though should hopefully work...
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| 16:12 | <alkisg> Thanks, trying...
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| 16:13 | <vagrantc> alkisg: actually, you can probably leave out the provides.
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| 16:13 | alkisg: provides just means "includes compatible functionality to FOO"
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| 16:13 | really, just a conflicts with ltsp-server-standalone and dhcp3-server should be enough.
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| 16:14 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I tried it like this, but without the conflicts dhcp3-server, and now dpkg -l ltsp-server-standalone gives me this:
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| 16:14 | ic ltsp-server-standalone 5.1.75-0ubuntu1~ppa1 Complete LTSP server environment
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| 16:14 | <Ryan52> tho that still doesn't gaurantee that when dnsmasq is installed dhcp3-server will be removed already.
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| 16:14 | <alkisg> What does that "ic" mean in front?
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| 16:14 | <Ryan52> you would have to make your own dhcp3-server that conflicts with dnsmasq.
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| 16:15 | <vagrantc> or a pre-depends on something that conflicts, maybe?
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| 16:15 | <Ryan52> err, other way around :P
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| 16:15 | <alkisg> Ryan52: so is there a way to guarantee that dhcp3-server will be removed when my package is installed?
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| 16:15 | <vagrantc> alkisg: you're looking for a clean upgrade path, basically?
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| 16:16 | <alkisg> Yes, I want people to install ubuntu with the alternate cd (= ltsp-server-standalone/dhcp3-server) and then "upgrade" with my package
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| 16:16 | ...and that should hopefully remove dhcp3-server so that there's no port conflict
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| 16:24 | <vagrantc> i don't know if it would work, but maybe two packages, your ltsp-server-pnp, which pre-depends on a package that conflicts with dhcp3-server.
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| 16:25 | <Ryan52> what a mess.
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| 16:25 | <vagrantc> or maybe a package that provides/conflicts on dhcp3-server, too?
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| 16:25 | indeed, it's kind of messy.
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| 16:26 | <alkisg> Yeah!!! Worked fine!!! Thank you guys
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| 16:26 | <vagrantc> alkisg: what about just put a preinst in your script that shuts down dhcp3-server... "invoke-rc.d dhcp3-server stop"
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| 16:26 | alkisg: which one worked?
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| 16:26 | <alkisg> Both ltsp-server-standalone, dhcp3-server in both conflicts and replaces
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| 16:27 | I had to lie a little, as replacing dhcp3-server would be a job for the dnsmasq package, but well, works for me :)
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| 16:27 | Now to find beta testers... :D
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| 16:27 | <vagrantc> alkisg: might be able to directly integrate into the ltsp debian packages, as we allow dnsmasq as an alternative to dhcp3-server.
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| 16:28 | i think ubuntu has to be more picky on only allowing dependencies on packages in "main"
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| 16:28 | <alkisg> vagrantc, let me upload it to my PPA and ping you in about 20 minutes when it's ready
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| 16:28 | <vagrantc> alkisg: cool
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| 16:28 | i'm also interested in using dnsmasq to replace the tftp server part, which shouldn't be difficult.
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| 16:29 | <ltsppbot> "alkisg" pasted "The readme file" (47 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/374
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| 16:29 | <vagrantc> i'd prefer it to dhcp3-server... but i default to dhcp3-server just for consistancy with other distros.
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| 16:30 | <alkisg> dnsmasq in the latest 2.48 version can work as a proxy dhcp, which means that it can work with an externad _unmodifiable_ dhcp server, that's ...magic :)
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| 16:30 | *external
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| 16:30 | <vagrantc> nice!
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| 16:30 | <alkisg> It only sends the boot filename, root path etc, without messing with ip leases
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| 16:30 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so it gets the ip addresses and such from the *real* dhcp server?
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| 16:31 | <alkisg> and on the private subnets, it functions as a normal dhcp server, so supposedly it'll work with either 1, 2 or more NICs
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| 16:31 | vagrantc: yes, if there is one
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| 16:31 | <vagrantc> slick.
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| 16:38 | <alkisg> vagrantc: https://launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/+archive/ppa/
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| 16:39 | Packaging corrections will be really appreciated :)
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| 17:34 | <jammcq> hey friends
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| 20:08 | <stgraber> sbalneav: hey, did you have any luck debugging that ldm issue on jaunty ?
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| 21:13 | <warren> Ryan52: had a chance to do more dev/testing on fedora lately?
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| 21:13 | Ryan52: fedora's ldm version is pretty old
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| 21:17 | <warren> |Ryan52:
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| 21:17 | <warren> Ryan52: had a chance to do more dev/testing on fedora lately?
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| 21:17 | <warren> Ryan52: fedora's ldm version is pretty old
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| 21:28 | <Ryan52> warren: no...I can't look real soon cuz this week is teh last week of school, so there's finals and stuff...but after that I will (as long as I remember).
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| 21:29 | <warren> Ryan52: ok cool
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