IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 28 August 2008 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:00 | <johnny> anybody about?
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| 01:01 | i'm wondering what i shoulod be seeing under Beginning X session in my ldm.log
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| 01:21 | <cyberorg> johnny, http://pastebin.com/d20748752
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| 01:28 | <johnny> cyberorg, hmm.. somebody who doesn't use dbus-launch :)
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| 01:29 | <cyberorg> johnny, that is special case, sugar borked because of that, let me get normal kde or gnome
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| 01:31 | there you go :) http://pastebin.com/d48466012
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| 01:32 | <johnny> hmm.. is that different than other distros?
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| 01:32 | seems like you forced gnome ?
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| 01:33 | instead of letting your servers session manager taking care of it?
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| 01:33 | <cyberorg> johnny, nope, this is what ldm automatically detects
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| 01:33 | <johnny> aha..
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| 01:34 | ok.. now time to check how ldm figures it out..
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| 01:34 | <cyberorg> ldm gets this information form .desktop files in /usr/share/xsessions/
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| 01:35 | <johnny> not directly tho?
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| 01:36 | <cyberorg> no, possibly via /etc/X11/Xsession
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| 01:36 | where do you have that file?
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| 01:36 | <johnny> yeah.. that's my problem right there
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| 01:36 | <cyberorg> ours is in /etc/X11/xdm/Xsession
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| 01:37 | <johnny> ours is an oddity..
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| 01:37 | and it used to work :)
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| 01:37 | <cyberorg> do ln -s for now
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| 01:38 | <johnny> that's not the problem
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| 01:38 | my Xsession path is known by the ldm screen script
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| 01:40 | <cyberorg> johnny, do you have anything listed in ldm sessions?
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| 01:40 | if you dont select anything manually it should just run ssh -X /path/to/Xsession ...
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| 02:22 | <johnny> is the make install script supposed to create /var/run/ldm ?
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| 02:22 | i'm not seeing it
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| 04:35 | <ogra> warren, mkdst tags *again* ?
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| 04:40 | <ogra> warren, all i can say is that i followed a straight policy, tag, change release.conf, commit ...
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| 04:41 | johnny, that would be silly, /var/run is a tmpfs and will be wiped on shutdown/reboot
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| 04:43 | <johnny> oh.. duh..
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| 04:44 | got another user with stuff booting.. now just fixing some of hte bugs that were uncovered from installation on a much emptier system
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| 04:44 | missed a few deps
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| 04:46 | <ogra> do you have ldminfod running ?
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| 04:46 | <johnny> yes
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| 04:47 | <ogra> and get the right info ?
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| 04:47 | <johnny> i got my sessions loading.. it was PEBKAC thing
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| 04:47 | <ogra> ah, k
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| 04:47 | <johnny> when it was duplicated by another person, i thought it was something more serious
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| 04:47 | same problem tho..
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| 04:47 | i musta merged my default XSESSION out
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| 04:47 | at some point
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| 05:24 | <johnny> hmm.. sound is next..
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| 05:26 | <ogra> just haver pulse in the chroot
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| 05:26 | the rest should just work
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| 05:27 | well and alsa indeed
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| 05:29 | <johnny> hmm.. something is going wrong in my script
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| 05:29 | i try running the pulse thing manually and i see where it is trying to run setrlimit
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| 05:30 | and saying operation not permitted
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| 05:30 | <ogra> manually ?
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| 05:30 | like with the commandline used in the initscript ?
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| 05:32 | <johnny> yes
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| 05:45 | it does run..
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| 05:45 | when i do it manually
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| 05:45 | even with those messages
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| 05:47 | <ogra> then its fine
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| 05:47 | <johnny> it doesn't run when in the init scripts :)
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| 05:48 | <ogra> ask warren, he mentioned something we need to change to make it start at all with a new pulse release (there was a mail thread but i lost the link)
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| 05:49 | <jimjimovich> anyone have experience with mice stopping to work LTSP 5 (ubuntu 8.04). having a problem where the mouse still moves, but there are strange lines near the mouse and it no longer is possible to click on anything
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| 05:49 | <ogra> sounds like a broken Xserver
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| 05:49 | what HW doe that use ?
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| 05:49 | *does
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| 05:50 | <jimjimovich> the terminal is a newer computer, not sure what hardware exactly
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| 05:50 | sound like a video card problem?
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| 05:51 | <ogra> if you see strange fragments
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| 05:51 | <jimjimovich> yes
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| 05:51 | <ogra> thats my first guess
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| 05:51 | <jimjimovich> it might be an nvidia card. any known issues with them?
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| 05:52 | <ogra> well, tons ... its nvidia
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| 05:52 | surely not the best choice for a thin client :)
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| 05:52 | try creating an lts.conf fie
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| 05:52 | <jimjimovich> well, i wasn't exactly given a choice
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| 05:52 | <ogra> file
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| 05:52 | <jimjimovich> got one already, and an entry for that machine
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| 05:52 | <ogra> oh
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| 05:53 | <jimjimovich> any specific graphics card settings?
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| 05:53 | <ogra> remove that file then and check what it does if you le it do the autodetection
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| 05:53 | (you suppress nearly all the magic *using* an lts.conf)
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| 05:53 | always try without one *first*
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| 05:54 | then start to override autodetection if necessary
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| 05:54 | <jimjimovich> well, i mean, there's no graphics settings in there, just ip address and whatnot
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| 05:54 | <ogra> can you drop it to the pastebot ?
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| 05:54 | !pastebot
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| 05:54 | <ltspbot`> ogra: "pastebot" is The LTSP pastebot is at http://pastebot.ltsp.org. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebot, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. A link to the content will be pasted in the channel.
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| 05:55 | <ltsppbot> "jimjimovich" pasted "[Default] X_MODE_0 = "1024x768" (9 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/53
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| 05:55 | <jimjimovich> ok, actually, there is a default
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| 05:55 | the other setting is for a different comptuer
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| 05:56 | (sorry, got confused between the lts.conf and the dhcp.conf when typing)
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| 05:57 | <ogra> looks fine though
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| 05:57 | try XSERVER=vesa and see if the trails go away
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| 05:57 | <jimjimovich> the thing is, it's totally random when they will appear
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| 05:58 | is vesa like a very generic driver?
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| 05:58 | <ogra> yes, *the* generic driver
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| 05:58 | but wait
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| 05:58 | you have a shell on tty2
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| 05:59 | check what its using in the current setup in /etc/X11/xorg.conf on the client shell
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| 05:59 | <jimjimovich> ok, i'll go check it out
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| 05:59 | thanks
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| 06:00 | <johnny> hmm.. but ogra.. do you get that message?
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| 06:00 | when running it manually?
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| 06:00 | maybe i'm missing something..
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| 06:00 | i feel likei should know.. but i don't
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| 06:00 | <ogra> no idea, i havent looked at sound at all yet
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| 06:00 | <johnny> uggh.. imma go to bed
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| 06:00 | <ogra> yesterday was all about matchibg the freeze
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| 06:00 | *matching
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| 06:01 | from now on i can look into functionallity
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| 06:01 | :)
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| 06:01 | <johnny> i'll research later..
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| 06:07 | <jimjimovich> ogra: it was using the "nv" driver. switching to "vesa" gives no video at all :(
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| 06:08 | <ogra> well, the fun of owning an nvidia card
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| 06:09 | <jimjimovich> yeah, i'm starting to wonder if the card itself isn't bad
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| 06:09 | <ogra> it is, by design :P
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| 06:09 | <jimjimovich> lol
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| 06:09 | <ogra> soo ...
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| 06:09 | <jimjimovich> so is it best to stay with the intel cards?
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| 06:09 | (unfortunately, i'm working with a plethora of random hardware here)
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| 06:56 | <Blinny> What would give my users a blank screen after login, and the server only spawning 5 or 6 processes? (Ubuntu 8.04)
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| 06:57 | Prior to login I ensure that there aren't stale processes laying around. We did have the power go out yesterday and sessions were abruptly terminated, but I killall'd any leftover processes manually.
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| 06:58 | <ogra> probably some gconf crap lying around
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| 06:58 | * ogra has no idea | |
| 07:01 | <Blinny> I need to get Gadi's latest processes-killing script. I'm still on revision 0.0.001(a)
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| 08:21 | <dukai> hi
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| 08:21 | how to make sure that nbd_swap is working?
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| 08:22 | although nbd_swap is set to true, clients freeze when they seem to have reached their ram limit
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| 08:22 | <ogra> check if nbdswapd runs
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| 08:22 | <dukai> on the server?
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| 08:22 | <ogra> on the server
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| 08:22 | <dukai> yes there are a few
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| 08:23 | <ogra> so you got swap
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| 08:23 | <dukai> but the client doesn't respond for more than 5 minutes
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| 08:23 | <ogra> note that nbd swap is only a safety net so the clients dont crash completely
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| 08:23 | yeah, indeed it swaps over the network
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| 08:24 | <dukai> so you think it takes >5minutes for it to respond then?
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| 08:25 | <ogra> what you can do is, make sure your server has enough ram, then create and mount a tmpfs for the sapfiles, configure nbdswapd to only use swapfiles from that mounted tmpfs dir and your client essentially uses the server ram over network instead fo swapping from the servers disk
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| 08:25 | but still you have eth network as bottleneck there
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| 08:26 | <dukai> ok, thanks
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| 08:26 | it's a rare occasion when someone has to open a 150mb pdf with full of images
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| 08:26 | <dukai> it seems to freeze after 30 pages
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| 08:26 | <ogra> another option is compcache which i just included in ubuntu intrepid yeserday
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| 08:27 | <dukai> what does it do?
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| 08:27 | <ogra> create a compressed prition in the clients ram and use that as swap
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| 08:27 | effectively that extends your ram for the cost of compression
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| 08:28 | but thats only in intrepid yet which isnt released before oct.
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| 08:28 | <dukai> it could be dangerous to update hardy to intrepid
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| 08:28 | <ogra> yes, dont do that yet
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| 08:29 | at least not on production systems
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| 08:29 | the stuff is in ... but not tested or debugged yet, so intrepid might currently be heavily broken
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| 08:31 | <dukai> usually the autumn ubuntus are more like a testing version:)
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| 08:31 | <ogra> ??
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| 08:31 | what makes you think that ?
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| 08:31 | * ogra usually puts the same effort into all releases | |
| 08:32 | <dukai> ok, I meant the distrib as a whole
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| 08:32 | I've used only dapper and hardy for ltsp
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| 08:32 | <ogra> well, it definately depends what upstream does
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| 08:32 | we somewhat rely on that
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| 08:32 | i.e. upstream X dropped support for xorg.conf
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| 08:32 | <dukai> :)
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| 08:33 | <ogra> that will surely have huge impact on the next releases of ubuntu or fedora who ship that stuff
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| 08:33 | <dukai> X is evolving somewhere very fast
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| 08:33 | but it breaks many things
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| 08:33 | <ogra> yes, and very good, but it still has miles to go
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| 08:33 | <dukai> allt he time
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| 08:33 | <ogra> right
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| 08:34 | <dukai> do you know if somebody is going to make better support on kde for the localdev?
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| 08:35 | I mean some user friendy stuff
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| 08:35 | <ogra> no, no idea
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| 08:35 | i dont use KDE .... but we'll surely happily accept patches if they are sane
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| 08:36 | <cyberorg> ogra, there already is something from vagrantc that we use, it gets icons of local dev on kde desktop
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| 08:37 | <dukai> kde 3 or 4?
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| 08:37 | <ogra> cyberorg, yeah thats massively hackish
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| 08:37 | creting links or some such
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| 08:38 | which is why we dont use it upstream but ship it in the docs
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| 08:38 | <cyberorg> ogra, no, creating .desktop files
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| 08:38 | <ogra> so admins can break their stuff themselves if they want to
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| 08:38 | <dukai> where can I have it? ;)
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| 08:38 | <ogra> cyberorg, anyway, tinkering in /homedirs
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| 08:38 | thats something you simply dont do
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| 08:39 | dukai, its in the upstream codebranch
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| 08:39 | for ltspfs
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| 08:39 | <cyberorg> it creates ~/Desktop/ltspfsmounter--%s.desktop
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| 08:39 | <ogra> yeah, evil
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| 08:40 | <dukai> :D
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| 08:40 | <ogra> and not allowed by policy in ubuntu/debian anyway
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| 08:40 | s nothing i need to think about
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| 08:40 | * ogra is still hoping someone comes around with acceptable code at some point | |
| 08:40 | <ogra> and i guess vagrant as well
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| 08:41 | i try to not ship crack
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| 08:43 | and after all i still hope someone adopty my hal approach for localdev and develops it to an end ... so we dont have to care about crack at all and let hal handle everything
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| 08:43 | jammcq has joined #ltsp | |
| 08:43 | <jammcq> g'morning friends
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| 08:43 | <ogra> morning jammcq
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| 08:44 | <jammcq> hey
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| 08:45 | * ogra ponders ... | |
| 08:45 | <ogra> am i adventurous enough today to try out what i uploaded last night ?
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| 08:46 | <warren> nah
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| 08:46 | don't test things you build
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| 08:46 | <jammcq> just assume they work
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| 08:46 | <ogra> warren, yeah, i'll leave it to my users :)
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| 08:47 | warren, there was no point in testing it yesterday ... ubuntu works differently here ... get the latest and greatest in until feature freeze ... then stabilize for two months until release
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| 08:47 | warren, so can you tell me whats wrong with: tag, change release.conf, commit, push ? thats all i did yesterday
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| 08:48 | does mkdst tag another time if i roll tarballs or something ?
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| 08:49 | * ogra has really no idea how that other tag got where it is | |
| 08:49 | <warren> ogra: commit release.conf before tag
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| 08:50 | ogra: mkdst tag will tag using whatever is in release.conf, thus it will fail if release.conf was not changed
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| 08:50 | ogra: if it did the wrong thing, you can bzr tag --delete TAGNAME before you push it.
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| 08:50 | <ogra> well, i did only mkdst tar
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| 08:50 | and i didnt see any code in mkdst doing the tagging at all if i use tar
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| 08:51 | <warren> mkdst tar --from-tag=ltsp-5.1.21
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| 08:51 | <ogra> *and* i used mkdst *after* tag, change release.conf, commit, push
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| 08:51 | <warren> mkdst tar isn't good for real builds because it copies whatever is in the current dir, including files not checked in
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| 08:51 | <ogra> so i dont really see whats wrong with that
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| 08:51 | <warren> mkdst tar --from-tag=FOO guarantees that you get a pristine tarball
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| 08:51 | there's also debtar
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| 08:51 | <ogra> if mkdst does anything to my tree that didnt get pushed
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| 08:52 | since didnt push after tag, change release.conf, commit, push
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| 08:52 | that was my definately last action on the tree
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| 08:53 | <warren> you must tag AFTER changing release.conf
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| 08:53 | that's the only thing you have to do different
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| 08:53 | <ogra> huh ?
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| 08:53 | why does that matter ? its the same commit
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| 08:53 | <warren> you tagged before committing changes to release.conf
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| 08:53 | <ogra> i tag, change release.conf, commit
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| 08:53 | <warren> no
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| 08:53 | release.conf revision happens after the tag
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| 08:54 | * ogra doesnt get how that would matter at all | |
| 08:54 | <warren> if you do it in that order
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| 08:54 | <ogra> there was a commit before
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| 08:54 | <warren> sigh
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| 08:54 | why does the fedora guy have to teach you how bzr works? =)
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| 08:54 | <ogra> because of the 50 upstream projects i work with this is the only one using silly tags :P
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| 08:55 | but still
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| 08:55 | its one and the same commit
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| 08:55 | the tag cant apply to somthing that was committed and pushed already
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| 08:56 | so i dont get why it matters if i edit release.conf before or after calling tag in *the same commit* it shouldnt matter at all nd shouldnt influence a commit that was already pushed 1h before
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| 09:07 | <warren> almost everything in fedora is tagged in this manner
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| 09:08 | this is how a lot of upstreams do releases for multiple distro consumption
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| 09:08 | we've done nearly 3 dozen such tags before this without an error
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| 09:08 | please follow the common procedure when you do so
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| 09:09 | * warren is looking at sbalneav's problem now. | |
| 09:10 | * ogra will simply avoid tagging all over | |
| 09:10 | <ogra> fine to wait until someone else tags
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| 09:10 | (usually)
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| 09:13 | <warren> dude
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| 09:13 | all I'm asking is commit release.conf before tag
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| 09:13 | that's all
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| 09:14 | <ogra> right, but the next time i will have to tag will be in two months or so (after rlease)
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| 09:15 | i doubt i will remember it and do it the logical way (which for me is bound to the commit) ... so i refrain from it
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| 09:15 | i simply dont want to mess up stuff
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| 09:16 | and doing distro specific development only now anyway and wont pull new tarballs, it is unlikely that i will have to tag (unless i request a freeze exception which is a lot of paperwork)
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| 09:17 | <dberkholz> is there a release-making howto page around?
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| 09:17 | <ogra> dberkholz, mkdst
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| 09:17 | <dberkholz> just put the process on there, and people can open it up every time
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| 09:17 | i'm talking a page on the wiki
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| 09:17 | that way you can't just forget a step or do things in the wrong order
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| 09:17 | <warren> there is no central wiki with current info
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| 09:17 | <ogra> well, use mkdst and all is fine ... i didnt do so for tagging
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| 09:17 | <dberkholz> we've got one for xorg and it works nicely
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| 09:18 | <ogra> but we could need a wikipage saying that :)
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| 09:18 | <dberkholz> http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/ReleaseHOWTO
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| 09:18 | <warren> jammcq: is the ltsp.org server backed up? if the entire thing were lost could we easily recover?
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| 09:19 | jammcq: our full-time sysadmins could host it at its current domain name with no visible fedora branding, manage the wiki engine, security updates and backups.
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| 09:20 | <delly84> Does anyone know anything about a permission issue on ubuntu with pulse audio?
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| 09:20 | <ogra> warren, there are ssh accounts on the machine for some of us (not that anyone uses them ...) does that work with your policy ?
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| 09:20 | <delly84> i can't get any sound to work on my clients
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| 09:20 | <warren> ogra: to host downloads?
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| 09:20 | downloads of what?
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| 09:20 | <delly84> it gives me a permission denied
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| 09:20 | <ogra> no idea what for ...
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| 09:20 | <warren> we don't exactly need downloads of anything anymore
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| 09:20 | ltsp.org needs to streamline to a lot LESS
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| 09:21 | <ogra> i used it once to exchange stuff with scottie
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| 09:21 | <delly84> when i try to "test" it gives me that error
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| 09:21 | <ogra> warren, well, my key seems not to be on the server anymore ... it asks for a PW anyway now ...
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| 09:21 | so moot point
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| 09:22 | <delly84> I was thinking i could just create a group and add all users to that group
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| 09:22 | <warren> the key question was if the server is being adequately maintained for security updates and backups
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| 09:22 | if not we can easily provide that
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| 09:22 | * ogra guesses so | |
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| 09:23 | <ogra> warren, on the same servers that were hacked recently
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| 09:23 | (sorry couldnt resist :P)
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| 09:23 | <warren> ...
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| 09:24 | <warren> I could comment on how things were compartmentalized and the media really overblew things, but I can't give any more details due to the investigation.
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| 09:24 | <ogra> no, but really i think having that server not in a serverfarm thats massivey exposed to people moght be a bit safer
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| 09:24 | <delly84> any idea on the pulseaudio permission issue?
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| 09:24 | <warren> ogra: what exactly is the risk to content of ltsp.org?
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| 09:24 | (why would ltsp.org be a target?)
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| 09:24 | <ogra> none, but you can abues it as hub
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| 09:24 | <warren> what do you mean?
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| 09:25 | <ogra> the content isnt intresting but its good as a hub to get into other servers
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| 09:25 | <warren> ltsp.org needs to be reduced in content to merely a description of upstream activities, events, and links to distro pages to use LTSP. It should not offer any downloads or the current details that are merely confusing.
| |
| 09:25 | um...
| |
| 09:25 | <ogra> anyway, i think if its not to much work its better to have it sitting at jims basement
| |
| 09:26 | <warren> is it in jim's basement? he said it was a donated server somewhere else being hosted.
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| 09:26 | <ogra> i wouldnt suggest to move it to debian or ubuntu DCs either
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| 09:26 | <warren> Is it being backed up?
| |
| 09:26 | also I hate the current wiki engine.
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| 09:26 | <ogra> no idea
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| 09:26 | i use it to rarely to be upset about that
| |
| 09:27 | but putting an otherwise unintresting server into an environment thats target of many attacks is not something i'd do
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| 09:27 | <warren> that is an unfair characterization.
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| 09:27 | <ogra> unless i wouldnt be able to cope with the maintenance
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| 09:27 | <warren> "cope with the maintenance"? you don't do anything today
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| 09:27 | <ogra> warren, no, thats a realistinc one ... i wouldnt put it into an ubuntu DC either
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| 09:27 | or debian
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| 09:28 | wwx has joined #ltsp | |
| 09:28 | <ogra> warren, theoretically :P
| |
| 09:28 | <warren> um...
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| 09:28 | <ogra> *i* being jim :)
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| 09:28 | <warren> let's discuss this later.
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| 09:31 | mccann has quit IRC | |
| 09:32 | <jammcq> yes, it's being backed up. It's in my rack at my office
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| 09:35 | Guaraldo has joined #ltsp | |
| 09:35 | wwx has quit IRC | |
| 09:35 | <dberkholz> i think ltsp.org should be hosting all the released source tarballs, which should then become distro packages
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| 09:36 | wwx has joined #ltsp | |
| 09:38 | <ogra> dberkholz, ugh
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| 09:38 | we dont release tarballs ... thats why we have the infrastructure we do
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| 09:38 | that would be a lot of duplication
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| 09:39 | <dberkholz> all the distros should be able to have something that is ldm-X.Y.Z and be running the same thing
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| 09:39 | <ogra> which is why we have the trunk branches that are supposed to be always stable enough to be used
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| 09:39 | <dberkholz> you're saying that should happen just through a tag?
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| 09:39 | <warren> dberkholz: none of really need tarballs anymore
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| 09:39 | <ogra> right
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| 09:40 | that was the plan
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| 09:40 | <warren> dberkholz: fedora builds many packages from source checkouts, the tags are part of the verification process to be sure the checkout actually matches a specific moment in time upstream.
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| 09:40 | <dberkholz> obviously it would be personally useful for gentoo to have source tarballs
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| 09:40 | <warren> dberkholz: you're free to make your own tarballs
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| 09:40 | <dberkholz> i'm wondering whether it would also be useful to people trying to set up ltsp on new distros
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| 09:41 | <warren> dberkholz: tarballs are verifiable by comparing to upstream tags
| |
| 09:41 | instead of checksumsa and GPG sigs
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| 09:41 | dberkholz: not really
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| 09:41 | dberkholz: setting up ltsp on new distros requires a ton of customization
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| 09:41 | <ogra> dberkholz, people on new distros should first work on adding their sepcific plugins
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| 09:41 | <dberkholz> i suppose a lot of them would be working off bzr
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| 09:41 | <warren> they should be
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| 09:41 | <ogra> else we have the same fork situation we have with suse atm
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| 09:41 | <warren> they are not playing with upstream if they are not
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| 09:41 | and we don't want them
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| 09:42 | let me clarify that, I am not interested in working with them.
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| 09:42 | wwx has quit IRC | |
| 09:42 | <ogra> i actually think we should make up a strict policy to avoid that situation in the future
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| 09:42 | <warren> ogra: there is a simpler way that seems less discriminatory
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| 09:42 | <dberkholz> i find it very frustrating with a different project i package that simply declares a revision number in subversion as a release, but there's a pretty large distinction between levels of distro integration here and there
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| 09:42 | <warren> ogra: LTSP as a trademark, and with trademark use guidelines like Firefox or Fedora.
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| 09:43 | wwx has joined #ltsp | |
| 09:43 | <ogra> warren, i doubt anyone would actually want to enforce anything
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| 09:43 | ('anyone' being jammcq here)
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| 09:43 | <warren> don't need to enforce with lawyers
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| 09:43 | <dberkholz> need it to be worth the money
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| 09:43 | <warren> the community backlash is enough
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| 09:43 | <jammcq> DisklessWorkstations.com holds the trademark on Ltsp
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| 09:43 | <ogra> especially since we can simply solve it in a sane way
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| 09:44 | <dberkholz> oh, i see what you're saying.
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| 09:44 | <ogra> without force ...
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| 09:44 | <warren> If someone is misusing the LTSP mark in a way that is confusing users
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| 09:44 | there must be a document we can point to
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| 09:44 | "Here are permissible uses"
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| 09:44 | * ogra is still hoping to get suse guys to BTS and we can solve it there in person | |
| 09:44 | <dberkholz> ok, but if they've already shown that they don't care about that community, how would a backlash from it about another issue matter
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| 09:45 | pimpministerp has quit IRC | |
| 09:45 | <warren> A trademark permissible use guidelines document would be the first step to politely asking them to change the name of their project.
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| 09:45 | we don't mind them using our bits
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| 09:45 | primeministerp has joined #ltsp | |
| 09:45 | <warren> but if they continue to cause confusion due to a confusingly similar mark, then we politely ask them to change the name.
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| 09:45 | KIWI-anythingelse
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| 09:46 | * ogra prefers to embrace people instead of beating them up though it usually takes a lot longer... but tat might be my ubuntu attitude .... | |
| 09:47 | <ogra> but i'd also like to avoid the situation in the future
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| 09:47 | <warren> Offer rehabilitation or changing their mark to be not confusingly similar.
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| 09:47 | that's simple
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| 09:48 | <dberkholz> wonder when you get into trouble with debian's guidelines
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| 09:48 | <warren> hm
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| 09:49 | <ogra> yeah, thet might become problematic with such an approach
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| 09:50 | warren, anyway, i'd like to see what comes out of the conversation thats currently ongoing before anyone starts taking any actions
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| 10:03 | <cyberorg> ogra, jammcq sorry, what is the confusion about kiwi-ltsp, we have fully working upstreamed plugin, we use un-modified ltsp core components
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| 10:03 | <warren> cyberorg: it isn't only that
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| 10:03 | cyberorg: we get kiwi users coming here complaining about something being broken, we ask them questions and they mention scripts and config files that we never heard of
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| 10:03 | <ogra> cyberorg, i explaied it three times ... two of these explanations are on the ML
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| 10:04 | <cyberorg> we are not giving up features kiwi provides unless some suse dev rewrites it in form of ltsp plugin
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| 10:04 | warren, i have not seen any, i always check logs, none that can't be pointed to http://en.opensuse.org/LTSP or asked to post on MLs
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| 10:04 | <ogra> cyberorg, right, thats what i'm asking for ...
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| 10:05 | <warren> this is not a crisis point yet, but is it really asking too much to call it something other than KIWI-LtSP?
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| 10:05 | <ogra> cyberorg, having a kiwi-ltsp person and suse dev at BTS wuld be the way to go imho ... we'd all happily help you guys
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| 10:05 | <cyberorg> warren, i dont see why big fuss about calling it kiwi-ltsp when kiwi does equal heavy lifting
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| 10:05 | fedora calls it k12ltsp?
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| 10:05 | <ogra> no
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| 10:05 | <warren> no
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| 10:06 | <cyberorg> k12 linux?
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| 10:06 | <warren> not exactly
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| 10:06 | <ogra> you are mixing up an edu distro with ltsp
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| 10:06 | <warren> the feature is called Fedora LTSP5
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| 10:06 | the spin might be called K12Linux
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| 10:06 | (like Edubuntu)
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| 10:06 | <ogra> right
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| 10:06 | though edubuntu doesnt contain ltsp anymore since a year
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| 10:07 | <cyberorg> ogra, so you can consider LTSP being ltsp, the delivery mechanism we use is kiwi, hence kiwi-ltsp
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| 10:07 | <warren> yeah, fedora is just 2 years late
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| 10:07 | <ogra> cyberorg, no
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| 10:07 | cyberorg, your implementation is backwards
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| 10:07 | that causes a loss in contributions as well as problems in support
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| 10:07 | <cyberorg> ogra, we are using existing technology available to us
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| 10:07 | <ogra> we all do that
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| 10:07 | <warren> yes
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| 10:08 | cyberorg: I wouldn't mind if you called it "KIWI-somethingelse with LTSP technology"
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| 10:08 | <ogra> warren uses anaconda or whatever fedora offers, ubuntu and debian the debian tools to build images ... but not as frontends
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| 10:08 | <cyberorg> ogra, i dont believe in problems in support, point the users to wiki or ML, there will always someone to support, everything LTSP remains the same so that does not matter at all
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| 10:08 | <warren> that makes it far more clear
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| 10:08 | <cyberorg> warren, i am past the point where i care what you mind
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| 10:09 | there has to be some rational/logic in arguments
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| 10:09 | <warren> cyberorg: LTSP is a trademark owned by disklessworkstations.com
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| 10:09 | <ogra> cyberorg, we tried to help a greek guy recently here we could in the end just send off to a kiwi channel for his prob since nobody of us had ever heard of the script he mentioned nor knew how the loaclaes and encoding are set in your implementation
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| 10:09 | <warren> cyberorg: upstream could decide to write trademark use guidelines
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| 10:09 | <cyberorg> warren, we provide the same LTSP that comes from upstream, what dont you understand in that?
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| 10:09 | <ogra> that took an hour of support from a bunch of people
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| 10:10 | with no result at all
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| 10:10 | while it would have taken five mins if he had the right plugins
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| 10:10 | warren, put that club away ... that doesnt help
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| 10:11 | <cyberorg> ogra, i saw that, and changed stuff in our package to handle that automatically as you suggested to him
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| 10:11 | <warren> bbl, have to work on actual work
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| 10:11 | <ogra> cyberorg, well, where is that change in ltsp-trunk ? so we all benefit from it ?
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| 10:12 | cyberorg, wat i'm constantly asking for is to use kiwi as we all use our build tools ... as backend ... you say you cant implement that, i understand that ... but there are people who can, so lets get them involved and in the end we all have something we collaborate on
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| 10:12 | bjohnson has joined #ltsp | |
| 10:13 | <cyberorg> ogra, it is this four lines in our build script http://pastebin.com/d5e719a19
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| 10:13 | nothing useful to upstream
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| 10:14 | <ogra> right, thats exactly my point
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| 10:14 | <warren> cyberorg: Fedora uses the same script names as Debian/Ubuntu for some things but the implementation is entirely different
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| 10:14 | cyberorg: this is done for purposes of documentation compat only
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| 10:14 | <cyberorg> ogra, i understand your point, but we have existing tool that is easy for us to use and provides everything that ltsp requires
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| 10:15 | <ogra> well, and if $fedora-admin finds a fix it might be useful for all of us once he sends it to ltsp-devel
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| 10:15 | <warren> cyberorg: go ahead and call it "better than LTSP and uses LTSP technology" but that is not LTSP compliant.
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| 10:15 | <cyberorg> warren, we have the same scripts, so if you tell users to run ltsp-build-client, it will still work
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| 10:15 | <ogra> simply due to the fact that we all use the same base
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| 10:15 | <jammcq> maybe that's the point of confusion
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| 10:15 | cyberorg: kiwi has everything that a "thin client" requires. but, if you want to be LTSP, then you are required to have a little more than that
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| 10:15 | such as, 'ltsp-build-client'
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| 10:16 | ogra: don't we have a document somewhere that lists minimal requirements for LTSP?
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| 10:16 | <cyberorg> jammcq, kiwi is just imaging technology, LTSP is what gives it thin client feature
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| 10:16 | <jammcq> something we came up with in my office
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| 10:16 | <ogra> and its not hard to get that "little more" ... just requires another person understanding another bit ... we need to find that person and get you two together and we'Re all happy ;)
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| 10:16 | jammcq, i thought so
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| 10:16 | <jammcq> seems like we wrote all that down at my office in 2006
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| 10:16 | <ogra> jammcq, we wrote that up back in detroit
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| 10:17 | yeah
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| 10:17 | <cyberorg> jammcq, everything LTSP requires is in our implementations, including SUSE_LINUX plugin upstream
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| 10:17 | <bjohnson> hi. I've been using ltsp for years but decided to upgrade the server with new hardware and to latest Centos and ltsp. Could someone point me to LTSP rpms for centos 5.2?
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| 10:18 | I hear ltsp 5 has a lot of great new features .. we've been using 4
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| 10:18 | <cyberorg> jammcq, we are not using kiwi's thin client feature, it does other kind of thin client implementation too
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| 10:18 | HP and wyse uses that
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| 10:19 | <jammcq> cyberorg: the point is, there's a minimal set of things required, in order to truely be LTSP. Opensuse with kiwi is very close, but not quite there
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| 10:19 | if it were clear that opensuse was heading in that direction, to finish it up, then I don't think anybody would mind you guys using the name 'ltsp', but so far, it's not clear that opensuse cares to go that extra last step
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| 10:20 | <cyberorg> jammcq, i've gone through that, we have everything listed there, kiwi gives additional features that are quite useful, like live CD and USB
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| 10:20 | jammcq, when i started on getting ltsp5 working on opensuse, i was told to use distro tools
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| 10:21 | then vagrantc and ogra helped me build plugin using that
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| 10:21 | <jammcq> yes, and as ogra and warren have been saying, you are *most* of the way there, but there's an issue of some scripts and plugins that you either don't have or don't use.
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| 10:21 | <ogra> so why isnt it promoted then ?
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| 10:22 | <jammcq> and I understand that cyberorg isn't a programmer
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| 10:22 | and I understand that these things take time
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| 10:22 | <cyberorg> ogra, promote build script? prebuilt image rpms are available via 1-click
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| 10:22 | <jammcq> but i'm not convinced that opensuse wants to go the rest of the way
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| 10:22 | <ogra> doesnt look like
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| 10:23 | <warren> cyberorg: using the LTSP name on that makes it confusing to other distro users. The other distros DO NOT WANT users to be confused by that.
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| 10:23 | <jammcq> i'm also not sure exactly what the differences are between where opensuse is and were warren/ogra thing opensuse should be
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| 10:23 | <warren> cyberorg: that is part of my gripe with use of the trademark in a confusing way.
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| 10:23 | <dberkholz> being able to run the same tools and use the same documentation about how ltsp works
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| 10:23 | <jammcq> and in Maine in early november, we could all sit down and figure this out and move forward
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| 10:23 | <cyberorg> warren, that is to help support people to identify what distro the user is using, first thing everyone asks here is "what distro?"
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| 10:24 | <ogra> jammcq, ++
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| 10:24 | <warren> cyberorg: your page offers downloads for other distros in ways htat are confusing to users and completely unsupported by those distros.
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| 10:24 | <cyberorg> warren, i still dont see any confusion, LTSP is 100% ltsp
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| 10:24 | <ogra> and japerry even expressed interest in working on it
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| 10:24 | <cyberorg> warren, please check again
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| 10:24 | <ogra> so i dont see whats the prob
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| 10:24 | <warren> I need to focus on other things. bbl
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| 10:24 | warren has left #ltsp | |
| 10:25 | <cyberorg> packages for "other" distro were setup to demonstrate that packages from the same tarballs can be built for everyone from one place
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| 10:26 | the repo description also had "cross distribution test repository"
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| 10:27 | * ogra didnt know about that at all and asks kindly to remove any ubuntu builds there | |
| 10:28 | <cyberorg> dberkholz, if it was possible to use same tools by all distros, all the distibutions would have been using ltsp5, it has been around for almost two years now
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| 10:28 | <ogra> (as long as its ltsp ... i dont care about other things here)
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| 10:28 | <cyberorg> ogra, there has never been any ubuntu or debian builds
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| 10:28 | <ogra> good
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| 10:28 | <cyberorg> *for ltsp
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| 10:29 | <dberkholz> there's a big difference between possibilities and execution
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| 10:29 | one does not imply the other
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| 10:29 | <cyberorg> it was fedora8 repo i added while i was having a discussion with warren that how all distributions can work together and release packages at the same time, same version, mirrored all over
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| 10:29 | <ogra> cyberorg, ltsp is around since 2005
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| 10:30 | <ogra> *ltsp5
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| 10:30 | <jammcq> that sounds like a shuttleworth topic
| |
| 10:30 | <dberkholz> it's a slight adaptation of a blog post by seth godin that i read a couple of weeks ago.
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| 10:31 | ideas are a dime a dozen, it's turning them into reality that's the challenge
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| 10:31 | <cyberorg> jammcq, opensuse build service provides that infrastructure, build for two archs, many distros, developers do not need other distros installed to test if package builds everywhere
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| 10:31 | <ogra> apart from that fact that such a package might totally break distro policies
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| 10:31 | <cyberorg> dberkholz, it has been a reality since over a year :)
| |
| 10:32 | ogra, not if the distro packagers provide spec files
| |
| 10:32 | <ogra> packaing a .deb is a lot more than havinf a spec file
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| 10:32 | * ogra points to the debian maintainer guide | |
| 10:33 | <cyberorg> yeah, we will be doing debs for easy-ltsp
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| 10:33 | <ogra> that thing doesnt have 300 pages just for fun ... and understanding that stuff is what makes u a debian package
| |
| 10:33 | <cyberorg> i dont understand deb packaging at all
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| 10:33 | <ogra> *up
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| 10:34 | so if you want to provide a .deb, do it *in the distro* you target
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| 10:34 | never ever do it out of distro or avan workse provide packaging data (a debian dir) *inside* your tarball
| |
| 10:34 | <cyberorg> ogra, that is what oBS provides, real distros to build packages on
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| 10:34 | provides even RHEL targets
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| 10:34 | <ogra> you dont get the point
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| 10:35 | anyway, i have to rush out for 1h
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| 10:35 | <cyberorg> ok :)
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| 10:36 | <ogra> but pretty please dont put a debian dir into easy-ltsp ... talk to #ubuntu-motu if you want an ubuntu or ebian package
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| 10:36 | *debian
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| 10:36 | <cyberorg> we will show it to you first :)
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| 10:40 | ogra, https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?package=Easy-LTSP&project=home%3Ajapa83
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| 10:41 | when you have time, needs opensuse login account
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| 10:45 | <pdjbarber> does anyone have experience on OpenSuSE 10.3 kiwi-ltsp?
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| 10:45 | <cyberorg> pdjbarber, yeah, we've just been waiting for you :)
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| 10:46 | <pdjbarber> I have my client booting, however it appeasr to be hanging after it gets to "input" for keybaord and mouse
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| 10:46 | <cyberorg> pdjbarber, it is known, opensuse's kernel does not boot on low resources clients
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| 10:46 | it requires minimum i586 with 128M ram
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| 10:47 | pdjbarber, tested using normal PC/laptop or higher spec clients?
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| 10:47 | <pdjbarber> ahhh...not good for low power VIA type motherboards then
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| 10:48 | <cyberorg> pdjbarber, nope :(
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| 10:48 | i tested on via 800Mhz with 128M ram, that is the lowest i have tested
| |
| 10:50 | as kiwi-ltsp and ltsp4.2 are installed in different locations, you can do some dhcpd.conf magic and use 4.2 for old clients and use ltsp5 for others that work
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| 10:52 | <pdjbarber> looks like reverting back to ltsp4.x then :( washoping to use ltsp5.x thanks
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| 10:52 | <cyberorg> what clients specs do you have?
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| 10:54 | <pdjbarber> 533mhz 256MB...theywork well with LTSP4
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| 10:55 | <cyberorg> pdjbarber, yes, much powerful for 4.2
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| 11:13 | <cyberorg> dberkholz, btw, i agree with your idea about tarballs, it makes many things simpler, packaging especially, all distros would have same version
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| 12:19 | <FuriousGeorge> so, if i add a client now, i dont need a whole 'nother filesystem on my disk?
| |
| 12:19 | and, more importantly, "hey all"
| |
| 12:20 | * gbolte dosent understand the question | |
| 12:25 | <cyberorg> hi gbolte :)
| |
| 12:25 | * Lns doesn't understand the q either | |
| 12:26 | <ogra> FuriousGeorge, the fs gets mounted on boot fom the server
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| 12:27 | (if you ran ltsp-build-client to create it once)
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| 12:27 | FuriousGeorge, all clients use the same fs, mount it readonly from the server and create the writable bits on boot in ram
| |
| 12:29 | * Nubae just sent XS email to motu | |
| 12:29 | <Nubae> I wonder if there will be takers
| |
| 12:29 | <ogra> sounds good
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| 12:29 | i bet there will :)
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| 12:29 | <FuriousGeorge> ogra: ok, im starting to wrap my head around it
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| 12:30 | <Nubae> made as diplomatic as possible without relinquishing control from the XS architect martin langhoff... he really knows his shit
| |
| 12:30 | <FuriousGeorge> i notice things when sshed in to the client arent as they appear from chroot or from server
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| 12:30 | <gbolte> hi cyberorg
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| 12:30 | <ogra> FuriousGeorge, you have sshd in your client ?
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| 12:30 | <FuriousGeorge> ogra: troubleshooting
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| 12:30 | <ogra> ah
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| 12:31 | <Nubae> but even if its a side project.... it can only be positive, after all the XOs are already debian-sugar capable now
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| 12:31 | <ogra> yeah, the chroot is only the basic fs
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| 12:31 | <FuriousGeorge> server changed hostname, seeing ldm logs was necessary
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| 12:31 | <ogra> on boot the actual HW related bits are set up
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| 12:31 | ltsp-update-sshkeys is what you want in that case :)
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| 12:32 | and depending on the distro ltsp-update-image afterwards
| |
| 12:32 | <gbolte> cyberorg, I am still trying to figure out why localdevices have 2 icons on the desktop
| |
| 12:32 | <ogra> that updates the ssh keys for ldm after ip/name changes
| |
| 12:32 | <gbolte> its a mystery
| |
| 12:32 | :/
| |
| 12:32 | one works and the other dosent
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| 12:32 | <cyberorg> gbolte, you have any kde applications running?
| |
| 12:32 | <Nubae> on to more ltsp related stuff... one of the reasons one of the school thats paying me to admin wants fat client is to be able to run office 2007 and photoshop and dreamweaver CS
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| 12:33 | <gbolte> cyberorg, my user no
| |
| 12:33 | <Nubae> dont know if you know this, but wine 1.0 was recently released and so was crossover 7
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| 12:33 | <ogra> sure i know this :)
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| 12:33 | <cyberorg> gbolte, what is the output of $GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID
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| 12:33 | <gbolte> I dont know what other people are running
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| 12:33 | lol
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| 12:33 | <Nubae> and both are supposed to support the ms and adobe crap flawlessly
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| 12:33 | <FuriousGeorge> yeah... so, then the reason i see things when ssh'ed in that arent there from outside is because they all mount that single / i built with ltsp_build_client, and then somewhere there is a ramdisk where all the clients keep the difference between themselves and /?
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| 12:33 | <ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ apt-cache show wine|grep -i version
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| 12:33 | Version: 1.0.0-1ubuntu10
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| 12:33 | ;)
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| 12:33 | <gbolte> cyberorg, gbolte@wksserv02:~> echo $GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID
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| 12:33 | Default
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| 12:34 | <Nubae> ahh... and u've tried running photoshop/office?
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| 12:34 | <cyberorg> gbolte, second sets of icons are created by kde-desktop-icons, it is run only if GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID is empty
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| 12:34 | <Nubae> if its true... and local apps aint ready yet till intrepid+1 Im gonna put all my time into fat client
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| 12:34 | <ogra> FuriousGeorge, right, usually unionfs ... or if you have an nfs mount a tmpfs in ram
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| 12:35 | <cyberorg> gbolte, if you are using gnome on all desktop you can remove kde-desktop-icons completely
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| 12:35 | <FuriousGeorge> serverram, obviously, right?
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| 12:35 | <ogra> Nubae, well, the infrastructure is there in intrpid ... but it requires tinkering with the .desktop files
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| 12:35 | <gbolte> cyberorg, the package?
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| 12:35 | <ogra> FuriousGeorge, nope, client
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| 12:35 | <cyberorg> gbolte, see /etc/ltspfs/mounter.d/kde-desktop-icons
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| 12:35 | <Nubae> well, would it be better to do that or for me to tinker with fat client? ;-)
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| 12:35 | <gbolte> k
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| 12:36 | <ogra> Nubae, as i said before fat clients will still be q required feature
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| 12:36 | <gbolte> cyberorg, make that not executable?
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| 12:36 | <ogra> localapps will evolve anyway
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| 12:36 | <cyberorg> gbolte, remove or that, only if you dont use kde
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| 12:36 | <Nubae> I guess its not as easy as enabling wine as the only local app
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| 12:37 | would involve more to get these apps running locally
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| 12:37 | <ogra> wine alone wont suffice anyway
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| 12:37 | you need the call to wine <app>.exe indeed
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| 12:37 | but that might work
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| 12:37 | etyack has joined #ltsp | |
| 12:38 | <gbolte> thanks cyberorg that fixed it
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| 12:38 | I just chmod -x
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| 12:38 | <ogra> do you have an intrepid install around ? i have put the xrexec script into /usr/share/doc/ltsp-server/examples
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| 12:38 | <cyberorg> gbolte, it is not even kiwi-ltsp thing ;)
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| 12:38 | <gbolte> ah
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| 12:38 | <Nubae> I see it this way... there are 2 reasons for local apps/fat clients... stuff like wine/crossover.... and stuff like flash/java/heavy media
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| 12:38 | <ogra> so you get an idea what to do for runnign a local app (apart from having the bits and pieces installed in the image)
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| 12:38 | * gbolte thinks that needs to be added to the wiki | |
| 12:39 | <Nubae> i dont, but if you tell mw which image, I shall download now
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| 12:39 | <gbolte> disable that or else you will get an extra icon that dosent work
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| 12:39 | <cyberorg> gbolte, add here: http://en.opensuse.org/LTSP/Troubleshooting
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| 12:39 | <ogra> Nubae, well its still in development, i havent fully tested it yet (only fixed one bug today)
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| 12:40 | <Nubae> i dont mind that... I will help with bugs then, in the worst of cases
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| 12:40 | <ogra> it *should* build an image since today though
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| 12:40 | <Nubae> its not for a production server
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| 12:40 | <ogra> well, just install the latest ltsp-server/-standalone packages
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| 12:40 | <Nubae> but Id like something to present the school by November
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| 12:40 | <ogra> and run ltsp-build-client
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| 12:41 | <Nubae> with the latest intrepid alpha then?
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| 12:41 | <gbolte> cyberorg, wait why is the logic in that script not working
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| 12:41 | <Nubae> enabling intrepid-proposed and testing?
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| 12:41 | <gbolte> it should not need to be disabled if the user is in gnome
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| 12:41 | <cyberorg> gbolte, somehow it is getting GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID empty
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| 12:42 | <ogra> Nubae, only intrepid
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| 12:42 | there is no proposed before a release ;)
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| 12:42 | <gbolte> cyberorg, but mine is not its "Default"
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| 12:42 | <ogra> like there is no -security :)
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| 12:42 | <Nubae> heh, just checking
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| 12:42 | <gbolte> I dont know why it thinks its empty
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| 12:43 | elisboa has joined #ltsp | |
| 12:43 | <cyberorg> let me test again
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| 12:45 | gbolte, worksforme :)
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| 12:45 | <gbolte> :/
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| 12:45 | <cyberorg> gbolte, btw are you using italc?
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| 12:45 | <gbolte> not yet
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| 12:45 | <cyberorg> try it out http://en.opensuse.org/LTSP/iTALC
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| 12:45 | <gbolte> we have been caught up in move preperation
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| 12:45 | our company is moving
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| 12:45 | <Nubae> ogra: should I download an alpha or a daily snapshot?
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| 12:46 | <cyberorg> gbolte, no configuration required, just installing packages and running it is enough, it runs automatically on the clients
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| 12:47 | <gbolte> hmm interesting
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| 12:47 | <Nubae> cyberorg: just picked up latest linux format... they are really waving the suse flag about... they say the latest is the best thing since 9.3
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| 12:47 | <ogra> Nubae, not sure how the daily looks atm, alpha is at least tested for installability, but dont build ltsp from it
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| 12:48 | <gbolte> cyberorg, I cant wait till shutdown and reboot are supported
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| 12:48 | <cyberorg> Nubae, it is :)
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| 12:48 | * ogra has to run out | |
| 12:49 | Q-FUNK has joined #ltsp | |
| 12:49 | <Nubae> cyberorg: u mention italc support.... how supported is it.. does it have the messaging between clients built in?
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| 12:49 | <cyberorg> gbolte, technically it is not possible the way we do it for the clients, we run everything on server including italc-client, so shutting down will shut down the server if it worked
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| 12:49 | <gbolte> cyberorg, can you pastebin your kde-desktop-icons script so I can see if they differ at all
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| 12:50 | <ogra> Nubae, if its the version we have in intrepid it should
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| 12:50 | <gbolte> ah
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| 12:50 | <cyberorg> Nubae, yes, thanks to stgraber all the clients are automatically detected too
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| 12:50 | <gbolte> yeah
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| 12:50 | <Nubae> I am looking at the link too... just wondering... cause italc is a necessity in any school these days
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| 12:50 | wow, wonderful
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| 12:50 | <cyberorg> ogra, we have almost the same packages as ubuntu
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| 12:50 | <ogra> cyberorg, yeah, i thought so
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| 12:51 | i think we're minimally ahead atm (final release vs RC) ... unless you updated recently
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| 12:51 | * Nubae needs to test italc wirelessly... see if it works on the xos | |
| 12:51 | <cyberorg> ogra, i am good at putting other people's work to use ;)
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| 12:51 | <gbolte> lol
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| 12:51 | <ogra> Nubae, it should
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| 12:52 | <Nubae> it should and it does are different words :-)
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| 12:52 | <ogra> cyberorg, nothing to complain about :)
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| 12:52 | <cyberorg> 1.0.9
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| 12:52 | <ogra> Nubae, well, as long as avahi works, italc will as well
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| 12:52 | cyberorg, yeah, same here (though stephane had to bump to 1.0.9.1 due to a versioning prob)
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| 12:53 | but its the same you have
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| 12:53 | <Nubae> gonna test with an eeepc running netbook remix first
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| 12:53 | <cyberorg> ogra, i have not used UI improvement patch that hides the client's icon, that would be the only difference
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| 12:53 | <ogra> anywyy, GF is poking me ... got to go
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| 12:53 | <Nubae> bie ogra
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| 12:54 | <gbolte> cyberorg, http://pastebin.com/m784421c2 can you check that and see if it looks like the same script you have
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| 12:54 | <cyberorg> gbolte, yes, same
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| 12:55 | <gbolte> hmm I wonder how yours works and mine dose not then
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| 12:56 | cyberorg, dose your variable output something other than Default
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| 12:56 | <cyberorg> gbolte, it is same on all gnome sessions
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| 12:56 | <gbolte> ah screw it we are never going to use kde here
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| 12:57 | * gbolte disables the script | |
| 12:57 | <cyberorg> gbolte, i think i told you, try kde > 4.1, it really is good, i am a gnomie, using kde since almost a month now
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| 12:58 | <gbolte> yeah I dont feel like re-training ~23 idiots
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| 12:58 | <cyberorg> :)
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| 12:59 | give them sugar: http://dev.compiz-fusion.org/~cyberorg/
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| 12:59 | tested on ltsp
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| 12:59 | screenshots are ltsp client running in virtualbox
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| 13:00 | <gbolte> cyberorg, while I would love to treat them like they are children I doubt they would be able to use it as it is not windows like enough
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| 13:00 | <FuriousGeorge> for the record, i asked in #kde whether they thought i should use 4.1 in production, and within 1 second three people said "no". And i thought they would be most likely to say "yes"
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| 13:00 | <gbolte> haha
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| 13:00 | yeah thats the other reason
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| 13:01 | <FuriousGeorge> and i never use gnome
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| 13:01 | <cyberorg> FuriousGeorge, we have a magician doing opensuse packaging beineri ;)
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| 13:01 | <FuriousGeorge> cyberorg: oh, well, if you have a magician that's another story.
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| 13:02 | myself, being a debutant alchemist... that's just a rank above wizard, you know
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| 13:02 | ;)
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| 13:03 | <gbolte> FuriousGeorge, what kinda environment are you running ltsp in
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| 13:05 | <FuriousGeorge> kde-3.5
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| 13:05 | as of yesterday, when i met ltsp
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| 13:06 | * cyberorg goes to bed, 'night | |
| 13:06 | <FuriousGeorge> 'night
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| 13:06 | vagrantc has joined #ltsp | |
| 13:06 | <gbolte> night thanks for the help with the double icons
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| 13:08 | <FuriousGeorge> gbolte: where do you have double icons?
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| 13:08 | <gbolte> I had double icons for removable media on my desktop
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| 13:08 | but not anymore
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| 13:09 | <FuriousGeorge> what was the problem?
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| 13:10 | cyberorg is a compiz-fusion dev too?
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| 13:10 | <gbolte> the script that creates the device icons for kde was not working right so gnome was mounting the correct one and then the script was also mounting one for kde
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| 13:10 | so I got 2 icons one that worked and one that did not
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| 13:10 | <FuriousGeorge> sounds like it was a real PITA to troubleshoot
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| 13:11 | <gbolte> cyberorg, knew what it was right away
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| 13:11 | but yeah it was for me
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| 13:11 | and evidently it works properly for him
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| 13:11 | <FuriousGeorge> its always nice when the whole irc thing pays immediate dividends
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| 13:11 | <gbolte> indeed
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| 13:12 | FuriousGeorge, so are you planning on deploying ltsp in a school?
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| 13:12 | <FuriousGeorge> business/medical practice
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| 13:12 | they want thin clients up front for aesthetic purposes
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| 13:12 | <gbolte> ah
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| 13:13 | I see
| |
| 13:13 | cool
| |
| 13:13 | I work for a medium sized chemical company
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| 13:13 | we deployed it to our nearly 30 employees
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| 13:13 | :D
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| 13:17 | FuriousGeorge, are the thin clients at your work for use by clients who come in while they wait?
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| 13:17 | <FuriousGeorge> using kde?
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| 13:18 | no, at the Point of Service/Sale they are for the employees workstations
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| 13:18 | <gbolte> ah
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| 13:18 | ok
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| 13:18 | <FuriousGeorge> they didnt want to use a big tower and pc as their "register"
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| 13:18 | <gbolte> right
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| 13:18 | makes sense
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| 13:18 | <FuriousGeorge> check out the samsung 720xt
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| 13:18 | you wont find confirmation anywhere on the web or in the user's manual, but it works great with ltsp
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| 13:19 | <FuriousGeorge> sound hardware even supported, though no working in gentoo-ltsp, atm
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| 13:21 | <gbolte> FuriousGeorge, what kinda memory/processor
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| 13:21 | <FuriousGeorge> geode 1500 (1ghz 256mb)
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| 13:22 | the screen on the 920Xt (19") is actually a decent screen with 1000:1 contrast, this one is 17" and not as good as you would expect from a samsung lcd
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| 13:22 | <gbolte> pretty sweet setup
| |
| 13:23 | couldnt find that one
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| 13:24 | <FuriousGeorge> which? the 920xt is on newegg for instance
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| 13:24 | but they arent easy to find, you're right
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| 13:24 | no thin client is, really :)
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| 13:25 | <gbolte> couldnt find it on samsungs site
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| 13:25 | <FuriousGeorge> samsung barely acknowledges it exists
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| 13:25 | queryquery has joined #ltsp | |
| 13:25 | <FuriousGeorge> you gotta search for it in their search thing
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| 13:25 | i called to ask if it supported pxeboot, cuz it didnt say in the manual
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| 13:26 | (it said it did but for "recovery" purposes, so i didnt know if it did some sort of specialized pxeboot)
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| 13:26 | and no one at samsung knew what the heck i was talking about
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| 13:26 | they are a monitor company not a computer company
| |
| 13:26 | hp also makes integrated lcd thin clients, cuz they bought a company called evo, but they sport less power and cost more $$$
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| 13:27 | <gbolte> http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-920XT-19-1000-Contrast/dp/B00113S6DS
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| 13:28 | <FuriousGeorge> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001247&Tpk=920xt
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| 13:28 | yeah
| |
| 13:28 | better specs there
| |
| 13:30 | <gbolte> looks pretty cool
| |
| 13:31 | our hardware its a bit overkill
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| 13:33 | <pdjbarber> trying to boot into OpenSuSE Kiwi-ltsp with a 900mhz laptop, the kernel appears to be booting, but when it gets so far into boot process it is trying to ping "tftp."
| |
| 13:33 | where is this variable set?
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| 13:33 | <gbolte> pdjbarber, is it failing
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| 13:33 | <pdjbarber> yes...and rebooting after 120secs
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| 13:33 | <FuriousGeorge> yeah, all these devices are less thin clients, then they are crappy computers with tiny solid state hard disks, running windows xpe, or some random linux distro
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| 13:34 | <gbolte> pdjbarber, yeah we had that issue too
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| 13:34 | LaserJock has left #ltsp | |
| 13:34 | <gbolte> pdjbarber, we just remade the image
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| 13:34 | <pdjbarber> did you get around it?
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| 13:34 | <FuriousGeorge> too much power for a thin client, not enough for a real computer, certainly for the price
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| 13:34 | luckily they boot pxe
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| 13:34 | <gbolte> hehe
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| 13:34 | <FuriousGeorge> the hp ones actually advertise that they work with ltsp, too
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| 13:34 | <pdjbarber> gbolte: using kiwi-ltsp-setup -s ?
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| 13:35 | <gbolte> yeah FuriousGeorge a few of our clients are running dual core amd 2.2Ghz procs
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| 13:36 | <FuriousGeorge> gbolte: that pc was probably still cheaper than many hp "thin clients" anyway
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| 13:36 | <gbolte> pdjbarber, yes
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| 13:36 | <FuriousGeorge> for a few extra cm^3 you get the option of using it like a regular computer
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| 13:37 | so you can fire up windows and play warcraft :)
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| 13:37 | <pdjbarber> will give it a try ...thanks
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| 13:37 | <gbolte> FuriousGeorge, yeah all of our clients are fully capable of running independent
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| 13:37 | pdjbarber, no prob
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| 13:37 | FuriousGeorge, just gotta pop a hard drive in and they would work fine
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| 13:38 | GeForce 7050 PV integrated video
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| 13:38 | not sure how well that would play WoW
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| 13:38 | <pdjbarber> once image rebuilt, will i have to make changes to tftp setup etc?
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| 13:39 | <gbolte> pdjbarber, it should automagically do all that for you
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| 13:39 | <pdjbarber> ok thanks again
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| 13:42 | <Lns> Are there any known issues with nm-applet and ltsp? I get so many errors in ~/.xsession-errors - while troubleshooting why some peoples' gnome desktops don't come up fully (seems nautilus and/or gnome-panel fail to load randomly).. ?
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| 13:42 | mhterres has joined #ltsp | |
| 13:43 | <ltsppbot> "Lns" pasted ".xsession-errors" (55 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/54
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| 13:48 | <Lns> Maybe I should just uninstall network-manager-gnome?
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| 13:53 | <queryquery> i`m trying to make a rdesktop connection with ltsp, but it`s very very slow, to show user and logging screen of windows 2003 server, is taking a lot.
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| 13:53 | <Lns> I see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/123808 - but the ~/.xsession-errors complaints regarding nm-applet persists (though I don't get the applet itself in gnome)... Anyone have any clues?
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| 13:53 | <queryquery> who knows why?
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| 13:53 | <Lns> queryquery: have you tried an rdesktop connection from a non-ltsp station?
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| 13:54 | <queryquery> yes, it`s ok
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| 13:54 | <Lns> what kind of bandwidth do you have to the win2k3 server?
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| 13:54 | <queryquery> 10/100mbit/s
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| 13:54 | <Lns> local
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| 13:54 | <queryquery> yes, local
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| 13:54 | i dont know why, but it`s very very slow =/
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| 13:55 | <Lns> not sure..i use rdesktop sessions to local winNT/2k servers all the time using terminal server client and it works fine
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| 13:55 | <queryquery> sometimes not load, the login screen =/
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| 13:55 | <gbolte> queryquery, what kinda video do you have on your ltsp machines
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| 13:55 | Q-FUNK has quit IRC | |
| 13:55 | <queryquery> it`s a one ltsp machine
| |
| 13:55 | a test,
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| 13:55 | <gbolte> I am willing to bet it has to do with graphical performance
| |
| 13:56 | <queryquery> a trident vga card
| |
| 13:56 | simple card
| |
| 13:56 | <gbolte> dose it have 2d acceleration
| |
| 13:56 | we had a simalar issue here
| |
| 13:56 | <queryquery> wait a moment, i will check
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| 13:57 | its a trident tgui-9680 a pci ( not ex )
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| 13:57 | i dont understand why, somethimes login of windows dont appear
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| 13:57 | <gbolte> oh
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| 13:57 | hm
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| 13:58 | yeah our issue here was mainly with slow window drawing in rdesktop
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| 13:58 | <pem725> Greetings, anyone available to answer a simple (I hope) ip forwarding question?
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| 13:59 | <queryquery> i can paste half part of my lts.conf ?
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| 13:59 | <gbolte> queryquery, use pastebin
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| 13:59 | !pastebin
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| 13:59 | <ltspbot`> gbolte: Error: "pastebin" is not a valid command.
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| 13:59 | <gbolte> aww
| |
| 13:59 | lame
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| 13:59 | http://pastebin.com/
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| 14:00 | <queryquery> !pastebin
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| 14:00 | <ltspbot`> queryquery: Error: "pastebin" is not a valid command.
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| 14:00 | <queryquery> hehe
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| 14:00 | <Pascal_1> Bonsoir !
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| 14:00 | <gbolte> use that website to post your lts if you would like
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| 14:00 | Pascal_1 has left #ltsp | |
| 14:01 | <pem725> is it possible to use an ltsp-standalone-server in ubuntu as a gateway for other regular computers?
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| 14:01 | regular as in standard Linux desktops?
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| 14:01 | <queryquery> gbolte: http://pastebin.com/dbb02691
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| 14:02 | K_O-Gnom has quit IRC | |
| 14:02 | <Lns> !pastebot
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| 14:02 | <ltspbot`> Lns: "pastebot" is The LTSP pastebot is at http://pastebot.ltsp.org. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebot, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. A link to the content will be pasted in the channel.
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| 14:02 | <gbolte> queryquery, yeah I am not sure but I think there may be an actual trident module and if there is you should use that over vesa
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| 14:03 | <queryquery> i can use XSERVER = trident
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| 14:03 | <gbolte> the reason is there may be better 2d acceleration which may help your rdesktop sessions
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| 14:03 | <queryquery> but dont have changes =/
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| 14:04 | <gbolte> oh
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| 14:04 | hmm
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| 14:04 | <queryquery> hmmm
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| 14:04 | i will try with another vga card
| |
| 14:05 | <gbolte> yeah if that dosent work than I am not sure
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| 14:05 | anyway I gtg
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| 14:05 | lunch
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| 14:05 | :)
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| 14:05 | bbl
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| 14:05 | <Lns> lucky you gbolte ;)
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| 14:06 | <queryquery> gbolte thanks so much :D
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| 14:41 | <Lns> Anyone know anything about bugs/issues w/gnome-panel randomly not launching correctly under ltsp/ubuntu hardy (and earlier versions) ?
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| 14:41 | I'm getting almost all of my lab techs telling me that randomly the panels won't appear when students log in, and they have to reboot the TC and then it works.
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| 14:42 | My earlier msg described some .xsession-errors entries re: nm-applet, but i'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.
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| 15:07 | <hcadmin> does anyone know why the login would take especially long
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| 15:07 | <Blinny> !seen Gadi
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| 15:07 | <ltspbot`> Blinny: Gadi was last seen in #ltsp 1 week, 1 day, 22 hours, 24 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <Gadi> which means the ldm parent process does not proceed to call the rc.d K scripts
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| 15:07 | <hcadmin> i am authenticating with kerberos and using account data from ldap
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| 15:08 | it takes like 30-60 seconds to produce the desktop
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| 15:08 | <johnny> Lns, force off nm then
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| 15:08 | <hcadmin> via console it is very quick though
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| 15:08 | <johnny> see
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| 15:09 | <Lns> johnny: you mean uninstall the applet?
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| 15:10 | I wish this was done by default in LTSP thin-clients
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| 15:10 | it looked as though a bug report from gutsy did this but the errors persist on my hardy installs
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| 15:14 | <Blinny> ogra: Yeah, it looks like it's gvfs mounts of floppy drives that is causing my users to not be able to log in after an interrupted session - even after killall -s9 -uuser
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| 15:14 | <johnny> well hopefully it would just work :)
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| 15:15 | <Blinny> People without floppy drives are able to log in just fine after an improperly terminated session (after being presented w/ Gadi's "Do you want to kill your previous session?" ldm rc.d script)
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| 15:20 | <Blinny> Should I file a bug against gvfs ?
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| 15:25 | <Blinny> Damn.
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| 15:26 | <hcadmin> has anyone ever thought of creating a small swap partition on a local hard drive so that if memory fills up paging won't have to go through the network?
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| 15:26 | <johnny> most people don't use hard drives on their systems
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| 15:26 | but ltsp should work with it
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| 15:26 | there's a var in lts.conf
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| 15:27 | <hcadmin> really?
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| 15:27 | <johnny> just pass the path
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| 15:27 | most people would prefer to use network swap
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| 15:27 | since they have no hard drives
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| 15:27 | <johnny> and now compcache might be used to reduce the memory needs even more
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| 15:27 | i don't know about the performance impact tho
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| 15:28 | <hcadmin> i have a fat client setup, and in that case, it might make more sense, right?
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| 15:30 | <hcadmin> what is the variable in lts.conf?
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| 15:36 | <hcadmin> johnny: do you know how i would go about creating a local swap configuration?
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| 15:40 | <johnny> USE_LOCAL_SWAP=/dev/path
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| 15:40 | maybe
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| 15:40 | check your lts-parameters.txt
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| 16:01 | <johnny> hcadmin, sorry.. it's just Y or N or T or F
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| 16:01 | it'll search for existing ones
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| 16:02 | <vagrantc> valid booleans are Y/N/True/False in any case
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| 16:02 | <johnny> dberkholz, you about?
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| 16:03 | <vagrantc> and yes/no
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| 16:03 | technically, valid booleans are y/yes/true in any case and *anything* else for false :)
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| 16:04 | Nubae1 has joined #ltsp | |
| 16:04 | <vagrantc> but maybe someday we'll be smarter.
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| 16:05 | <hcadmin> so where do you specify the swap partition for USE_LOCAL_SWAP
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| 16:05 | <vagrantc> it uses all local partitions it can find that are of type swap
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| 16:06 | <johnny> you don't hcadmin .. i just said you don't
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| 16:06 | read up
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| 16:06 | <dberkholz> johnny: hi there. just finishing a gentoo irc meeting
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| 16:07 | <johnny> dberkholz, haven't heard from you in a bit, you doing OK?
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| 16:07 | <dberkholz> johnny: yeah, i haven't been at the computer much
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| 16:08 | having a baby in 3-4 days
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| 16:08 | <hcadmin> johnny: sorry, i didn't see the 't' ... it'll vs i'll
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| 16:08 | <johnny> they're letting you have a baby?
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| 16:08 | lol
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| 16:09 | <johnny> dberkholz, my sister is due in december
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| 16:09 | <dberkholz> johnny: my linux time has basically become about 7:30-9am pacific time
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| 16:09 | <johnny> ouch..
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| 16:09 | <dberkholz> sorry i still haven't looked over the rest of your stuff
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| 16:09 | <johnny> it is starting to become a barrier
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| 16:10 | i have made some fixes tho
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| 16:10 | <dberkholz> johnny: will you be around during that time slot tomorrow?
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| 16:10 | <johnny> uhmm.. not normally..
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| 16:10 | i can try
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| 16:10 | <dberkholz> that would be 10:30-noon or so for you?
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| 16:11 | you don't need to be sitting there the whole time, just able to respond within ~10-15 min if i have questions
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| 16:12 | <johnny> yeah.. i'm not usually up that early.. lately been talking to mid morning europeans :)
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| 16:12 | <dberkholz> ah, i see
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| 16:13 | i think that if the two of us actually schedule time then i will have to do it then
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| 16:15 | <johnny> i'm just wondering what you're trying to accomplish
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| 16:15 | you have a sucessful install now
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| 16:15 | relatively..
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| 16:15 | <Lns> dberkholz: congrats on the coming baby - My wife is having one in 24-48 hours as well =)
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| 16:15 | <johnny> i just fixed some fresh install issues
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| 16:16 | <dberkholz> Lns: good times
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| 16:16 | * Lns cheers' | |
| 16:16 | <dberkholz> johnny: a full code review of everything you've done before i merge it and give you commit access
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| 17:00 | <Lns> Anyone have issues with FF3 and multiple users? I'm getting consistent results with a full class (~30 students) logging on LTSP workstations - 1-2 can get onto Firefox, and the rest get the spinning wheel and "Starting Firefox" panel tab - and then nothing.
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| 17:01 | How do I go about troubleshooting that?
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| 17:02 | <johnny> try it from the cli?
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| 17:02 | and make sure it isn't running in the background
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| 17:02 | <Lns> johnny: right - they don't get the "ff is already running" deal.. i do see in the xsession errors this: firefox: Fatal IO error 2 (No such file or directory) on X server localhost:13.0.
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| 17:02 | on a certain user
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| 17:03 | and that is under this:
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| 17:03 | (firefox:12788): GnomeUI-WARNING **: While connecting to session manager:
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| 17:03 | IO error occured doing Protocol Setup on connection.
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| 17:04 | i haven't tried from a terminal as i'm not onsite..but i can vnc in
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| 17:04 | to the server itself
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| 17:06 | <Lns> That's just general enough for me to shake my head
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| 17:18 | <ltsppbot> "Lns" pasted "standard ~/.xsession-errors w/user trying to log in and launch Firefox 3 (Ubuntu Hardy LTSP)" (56 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/55
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| 17:19 | <Lns> Can anyone make any sense of the pastebot errors? There are so many I'm not sure which ones could be affecting others...
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| 17:21 | This is the same .xsession-errors (3033 bytes) in every user that's logged in as a test via TC/LDM, started Gnome, and tried to launch Firefox.
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| 17:25 | :( nobody wants to help poor old me :p
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| 17:26 | <johnny> nobody knows
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| 17:26 | try asking the firefox people
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| 17:26 | <Lns> k
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| 17:26 | ty =)
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| 17:58 | <Lns> Do /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ scripts run under LDM?
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| 17:59 | I installed numlockx package and it puts a script in there to turn numlock on - but this doesn't happen when booting my clients up.
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| 18:00 | <johnny> i think you specify that in an ldm rc.d script
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| 18:00 | <Lns> specify what? running of Xsession.d scripts or the numlock itself?
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| 18:01 | <johnny> numlock
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| 18:01 | <Lns> oh
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| 18:01 | jeez
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| 18:01 | i wish i knew that
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| 18:01 | <johnny> i could be wrong.. but that's where i put my blanking
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| 18:01 | so as to save power
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| 18:01 | a little bit at least
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| 18:01 | <Lns> =p... so i'm guessing by that logic, LDM doesn't source /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ files?
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| 18:01 | <johnny> i'd suggest you wait for somebody else to answer that :)
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| 18:02 | i think it might have to tho
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| 18:02 | <Lns> i would hope so
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| 18:02 | that'd be a LOT of manual configuration for ltsp users
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| 18:02 | <vagrantc> Lns: at least on debian and ubuntu, ldm runs /etc/X11/Xsession, which calls all the Xsession.d stuff
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| 18:02 | <Lns> vagrantc: you were the one that i worked with the other day w/numlockx right?
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| 18:03 | <vagrantc> although if a user selects the session, it currently doesn't use /etc/X11/Xsession
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| 18:03 | Lns: don't recall doing numlockx stuff ...
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| 18:03 | <Lns> oops..nm that was sbalneav
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| 18:03 | <johnny> oh.. numlockx..
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| 18:03 | never used that.. just the manual
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| 18:03 | <vagrantc> with newer versions of ldm, there's also code to do that sort of thing by setting values in lts.conf
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| 18:03 | <johnny> i wonder where i got that idea
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| 18:04 | <Lns> vagrantc: that'd be nice...but you know it'd be so cool to have the "backward" compatibility w/normal packages that don't know about ltsp
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| 18:04 | seems like a lot of duplicated effort
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| 18:05 | <vagrantc> Lns: with using /etc/X11/Xsession.d hooks, it won't work until a user logs in ... that's why there's code for handling it from within ldm
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| 18:05 | <Lns> OH
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| 18:05 | is that the case with GDM as well?
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| 18:05 | <vagrantc> presumably.
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| 18:06 | <Lns> man...well i guess i'm 1 out of 1,000 people who need numlock on for entering a username/pw
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| 18:07 | <vagrantc> well, it was recently added to ldm...
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| 18:07 | so someone else out there must need it.
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| 18:07 | <Lns> oh i know... :) thx for that btw
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| 18:08 | is there a way to do this until that code is unleashed into the wild?
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| 18:08 | i'm guessing in the ldm scripts as johnny said
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| 18:12 | /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/lib/ldm/rc.d/ is the place to put it?
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| 18:19 | vagrantc: can you check this real quick and let me know if it looks ok? http://lns.wikidot.com/xenablenumlock
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| 18:19 | <vagrantc> Lns: that will still only work on login
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| 18:20 | <Lns> ugh
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| 18:20 | hehe
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| 18:20 | so....is there any way at all?
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| 18:21 | <vagrantc> currently no.
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| 18:21 | well, depends on your version
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| 18:21 | <Lns> Ubuntu 8.04.1
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| 18:22 | <vagrantc> hmmm... i don't even see it in trunk ...
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| 18:22 | i definitely saw the patch at some point, and thought it was merged
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| 18:23 | <Lns> can you tell me why Xsession/ldm scripts don't get run until after login? I know there's a good reason but i just am not aware of it
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| 18:23 | <vagrantc> because that's exactly what they're designed for?
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| 18:24 | for ldm, there are plans to make hooks for pre-login, but that isn't implemented yet.
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| 18:25 | <Lns> so maybe i'm not understanding...forgive me if i sound like a moron.. isn't LDM/GDM/KDM/etc launched via X ?
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| 18:25 | <vagrantc> other way around. *DM launches X
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| 18:25 | <Lns> So how does *DM display itself?
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| 18:25 | it's own graphical toolkit.. ?
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| 18:26 | <vagrantc> ah, you caught me in a web of lies! :P
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| 18:26 | <Lns> lol
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| 18:26 | * Lns feels proud of himself | |
| 18:27 | <vagrantc> http://marc.info/?l=ltsp-developer&m=121630805906461&w=2
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| 18:28 | * vagrantc can't figure out how to get a thread view | |
| 18:28 | <vagrantc> http://marc.info/?t=121559921100004&r=1&w=2
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| 18:28 | there.
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| 18:28 | <Lns> *hold music*
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| 18:29 | <vagrantc> i don't know what happened in the end.
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| 18:30 | <Lns> wow
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| 18:30 | strange to think my issue was being talked about just last month
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| 18:31 | <vagrantc> issues tend to come in waves.
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| 18:32 | <Lns> heh... ok well maybe i'll sub to the -devel list and post a question reply seeing where it is..hopefully it can be brought to hardy
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| 18:38 | thx a bunch for the help vagrantc
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| 18:55 | * Lns waves good night to chan | |
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| 19:21 | <jammcq> hello folks
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| 19:33 | dtrask has joined #ltsp | |
| 19:33 | <jammcq> hey, it's dtrask
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| 19:33 | <dtrask> hey!
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| 19:33 | * dtrask has missed all you guys | |
| 19:33 | <jammcq> yeah, where you been?
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| 19:33 | <dtrask> just plain busy
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| 19:34 | <jammcq> ah
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| 19:34 | <dtrask> school started today...everything is finally done
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| 19:34 | <jammcq> oh wow, doesn't start around here until next tuesday
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| 19:35 | <dtrask> lot of schools in Maine start before labor day, but not all
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| 19:35 | some start next week
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| 19:35 | <jammcq> michigan has some sort of law passed in the last couple of years that says school can't start before labor day
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| 19:35 | <dtrask> ah
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| 19:35 | brb
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| 19:35 | <jammcq> michigan is a big tourism state and it was hurting business
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| 19:36 | <dtrask> maine is too, but they figure what's two days or so
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| 19:36 | i guess
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| 19:36 | plus we get out earlier to start the season I guess
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| 19:41 | <jammcq> dtrask: you gonna join us at BTS-2008 ?
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| 19:55 | <dtrask> I'm back...sure...when is it?
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| 19:55 | jammcq: when is it?
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| 19:56 | I'm coming out to indianapolis around Sept 25th to present at the k12 open minds conference
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| 20:20 | <jammcq> dtrask: we're shooting for Nov 6th-9th
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| 20:24 | <djacidjac> hi, can anyone suggest a specific NIC that definately works on the client side?
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| 20:25 | <jammcq> djacidjac: rtl8139 is pretty popular
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| 20:25 | prolly one of the most common you'll find in thin clients
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| 20:29 | <djacidjac> 3com seems to be a little more prolific on ebay, any definates from them?
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| 20:35 | ah, found some 8139s, thanks for the info.
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