IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 14 February 2013 (all times are UTC)
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| 02:19 | <Enslaver> So question, why does the project even do a ltsp-build-client, i mean to have a true thin client image its pretty distro unspecific right?
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| 02:20 | It only counts when run fat-clients really, because a thin client is just connecting to a remote desktop, in theory
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| 02:22 | I was just thinking of more along the lines of just having a squashfs'd client generic image that we package with the project that is a customized DIY Linux specifically made to be fast over the network and tiny fingerprint
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| 02:23 | Then the portability is endless for the 'thin' side. We focus primarily on the server
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| 02:45 | <baptiste> Hello, there was Gabe Newell speaking on stage about streaming games on a home LAN http://techreport.com/news/24338/newell-argues-for-living-room-pcs-local-game-streaming (the video is too long, reading the summary is enough)
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| 02:45 | cheap thin clients are specifically mentioned.
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| 02:47 | I wonder about the protocol, will it be free or open, or just a proprietary nvidia thing? It would be nice if it's the former, and maybe LTSP could use it and eventually allow 3D gaming (and google earth, etc.) on LTSP.
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| 03:01 | <Enslaver> well they already have dLNA
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| 03:57 | <baptiste> isn't dlna some kind of file server
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| 04:30 | <warren> Enslaver: <Enslaver> [16:19:59] So question, why does the project even do a ltsp-build-client, i mean to have a true thin client image its pretty distro unspecific right?
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| 04:30 | <Enslaver> si
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| 04:30 | <warren> Enslaver: LTSP4 was actually its own operating system build from source into the chroot, kinda like LFS
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| 04:30 | Enslaver: it's a pain to maintain your own OS
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| 04:30 | Enslaver: ltsp-build-client is both better and worse
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| 04:30 | for obvious reasons
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| 04:31 | <Enslaver> well, why not both worlds?
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| 04:31 | <warren> not sure how that's possible
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| 04:31 | <Enslaver> A) the thin client image would be pretty static, you design one, build a new one every now and again to support new hardware
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| 04:32 | B) you have your fat clients, anything above 512mb ram
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| 04:32 | <warren> A) static except you need security updates
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| 04:32 | B) not all that different of a problem from thin OS
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| 04:33 | <Enslaver> A) security updates to a static image that is only able to talk to 1 other IP through firewall rules
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| 04:33 | <warren> the work is 99.9% done for you in the OS packages you install into chroots
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| 04:33 | Enslaver: I do agree there might be a better way than ltsp-build-client
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| 04:33 | <Enslaver> oh yeah btw, i meant to ask
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| 04:33 | do you know of any type of configuration framework?
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| 04:34 | <warren> Enslaver: just consider this project has always suffered from lack of programmers, you do whatever you can deploy a tool as quickly as possible using what you have
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| 04:34 | <Enslaver> basically like a build framework that produces ncurses + gtk+ + bash menus
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| 04:34 | <warren> Enslaver: there's no ltsp standard that I'm aware of
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| 04:34 | Enslaver: doing so would be difficult given the distros differ so much
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| 04:34 | LTSP4 had one because the chroot was static and identical
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| 04:34 | and it sucked
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| 04:34 | <Enslaver> we used ltsp 4.2 happily for years
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| 04:34 | I miss the ltsp-config menu
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| 04:35 | <warren> Enslaver: please, think about that stuff only after bringing EL6 and fedora latest to parity
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| 04:36 | <Enslaver> warren are you giving me the shutoffyobrain function call?
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| 04:36 | <warren> Enslaver: think of it this way, get the release done asap, we get the positive press coverage for your company, just maybe they'll give you a little more latitude to invest more time. Just maybe.
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| 04:36 | Enslaver: not intentionally, just speaking from experience. I thought about all that stuff myself years ago.
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| 04:37 | <Enslaver> Well i'm not really doing this directly for my company, it helps them out, yes, but i'm doing this work for the community
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| 04:37 | <warren> Enslaver: you're very close to bringing EL6 to parity, and a bit more after that is Fedora. That is low hanging fruit. Other things are a LOT more work.
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| 04:38 | Enslaver: by enabling basics to work with minimal up-front effort, sometimes you get useful other people to join
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| 04:38 | (hasn't happened for me in the years working on K12 though)
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| 04:38 | <Enslaver> Well if i wanted i could have it fully functional by monday, just not the way i'd like. I really want to kind of standardize everything
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| 04:39 | <warren> Enslaver: anyway, if you're interested in cool things to do with fedora and centrally managed clients, there is a lot more interesting thing to implement than just a new ltsp-config.
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| 04:39 | Fedora has all the building blocks to build a complete replacement for LTSP using a VDI model.
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| 04:39 | <Enslaver> I'd love to dive into that whenever
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| 04:40 | you talking about spice?
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| 04:40 | <warren> complete with merging the common VDI images in server memory, so you can run several times more virtual machines than the server has RAM.
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| 04:40 | <Enslaver> or qemu/libvirt VDI desktops?
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| 04:40 | <warren> combination of all that
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| 04:40 | there just lacks a LTSP-like netboot and automation glue
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| 04:41 | <Enslaver> I dont see VDI being big
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| 04:41 | <warren> future Fedora will have composite and remote 3D
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| 04:41 | <Enslaver> I know oracle/vmware and all that have adopted it
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| 04:41 | <warren> through SPICE
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| 04:41 | In the long-term, it's a lot more manageable and secure than LTSP.
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| 04:41 | <Enslaver> My grand idea is more than just desktops, its a self deployment of an enterprise in a box
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| 04:42 | <warren> and properly implemented, actually doesn't use more resources
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| 04:42 | are you using 389-ds?
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| 04:42 | <Enslaver> LDAP / SSL / raspi mobile thin clients / squid proxys
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| 04:42 | yes
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| 04:42 | <warren> cool
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| 04:42 | <Enslaver> been using ldap since hpux days
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| 04:42 | I was the one who setup sprint on ldap
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| 04:42 | <warren> well, I don't want to discourage you from implemneting whatever you want
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| 04:42 | I'll help you get it into fedora
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| 04:43 | <Enslaver> Before i forget, back to my question about the menu framework
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| 04:43 | i'm looking for something in between cobbler and make menuconfig / xconfig in the kernel
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| 04:43 | and grub's menus
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| 04:44 | like more of a framework to develop around
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| 04:44 | <warren> grub is a sticky situation, it's going away
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| 04:44 | you'll have to support more than one boot loader
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| 04:44 | grub1 vs. grub2 vs. efi whatever
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| 04:44 | <Enslaver> i dont mean use grub, i just mean their menu.c3 or whatever
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| 04:45 | <warren> i'll be back later, class in 30 minutes
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| 04:45 | <Enslaver> I have a feeling bootloaders will be in the bios soon enough
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| 04:45 | but i wasnt referring to grub / bootloaders
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| 04:51 | <baptiste> Isn't VDI a big waste? so if you have 40 users, you run 40 OS instead of just one. seems like it benefits the VDI vendors mainly
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| 04:54 | <cyberorg> Enslaver, it would be lot easy to setup ltsp if the chroot was standardized, like in ltsp 4.2 but using latest distribution
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| 04:54 | Enslaver, here are some examples http://old-en.opensuse.org/LTSP/Other_Distros
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| 04:54 | <baptiste> Though for added fun, you could install LTSP server into VDI images and have the VDI infrastructure manage all your multi-users and single user desktops.
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| 07:17 | <warren> baptiste: VDI isn't necessarily a waste. The common pages in the common OS across all running images can be combined in real memory.
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| 07:17 | baptiste: it has much greater security isolation between the users, and between the user and server.
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| 07:18 | baptiste: also greater portability from one client to another
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| 07:19 | <work_alkisg> Which VDI technology are we talking about?
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| 07:19 | <alkisg> vbox, spice, lxc?
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| 07:19 | i.e. any links?
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| 07:23 | "Spice server is implemented as a VDI front-end and the Spiced-QEMU provides back-end interfaces" ==> that one?
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| 07:24 | In our experience with vbox here, it's way more resource hungry and it performs much worse than LTSP
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| 07:25 | We do provide some how-to's though for windows over ltsp + vbox (in VMs, not RDP) for those who really need it, even though it requires 8+ Gb RAM on the server for just a few clients
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| 07:26 | Would multiple windows (not server) VMs need less RAM with spice?
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| 07:26 | Btw vbox performed much much better than kvm for desktop virtualization
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| 07:30 | <warren> I have never tried vbox
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| 07:30 | alkisg: yes, kvm is very good at combining the RAM of identical Windows vm's
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| 07:31 | <alkisg> warren: how? We're using memory ballooning with vbox, but didn't find anything similar with kvm
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| 07:31 | <warren> alkisg: Linux is a little more difficult because the free memory isn't zeroed like Windows. My information is 4 years old though, I'm guessing they would have come up with a solution for that by now.
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| 07:31 | alkisg: huh? I have memory ballooning on kvm, I use it all the time with Windows 7 and linux guests.
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| 07:31 | * alkisg tried kvm a month ago | |
| 07:32 | <alkisg> warren: do you need to run the VMs as the same user for that to succeed?
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| 07:33 | <warren> alkisg: all my vm's run via virt-manager
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| 07:33 | virt-manager itself kind of sucks, but it wraps libvirt which is very powerful and flexible
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| 07:33 | you can manage it from the command line with virsh
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| 07:33 | <alkisg> But in the end all of the VMs run as warren, right?
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| 07:34 | <warren> alkisg: no, some non-warren user
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| 07:34 | <alkisg> I'm wondering if VM memory could be shared between different users...
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| 07:34 | <warren> to connect to the hypervisor from the warren user to use virt-manager, you need to type the root password of the local or remote host
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| 07:35 | <alkisg> Anyways we already implemented all that with a simple LTSP screen script and we're looking at shared authentication + homes now with vbox modules (it has a windows GINA plugin for authentication)...
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| 07:35 | <warren> alkisg: on RH-based distros we have ksm and ksmtuned, both daemons involved in combining the memory of multiple parallel kvm's
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| 07:36 | <alkisg> ...what we're missing is the ability to pause the VM and resume it from another machine,
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| 07:36 | without the RDP overhead, using the native vbox frontend
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| 07:36 | <warren> is vbox running on the central server or diskless client?
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| 07:36 | <alkisg> Both methods are supported
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| 07:37 | <warren> what remote desktop protocol is used?
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| 07:37 | <alkisg> It's either LTSP "thin" clients or fat clients
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| 07:37 | thin ==> they run the VM inside the remote X session
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| 07:37 | fats => they use the vbox VM as a local session
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| 07:38 | We also tried xfreerdp but (1) it requires windows server, and (2) for some reason it performs worse than the "thins" solution above
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| 07:38 | <warren> "spicy" client allows forwarding of video, sound and raw USB 2.0 protocol over a SSL encrypted connection to a local or remote server.
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| 07:38 | <alkisg> Does the spice graphics system support 2d/3d acceleration + pausing / moving VMs to different clients?
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| 07:38 | <warren> 2D yes, 3D not yet
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| 07:38 | pausing /moving yes
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| 07:39 | <alkisg> Can we specify that we want unencrypted connection?
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| 07:39 | <warren> yes
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| 07:39 | <alkisg> Sounds cool
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| 07:39 | I hope the performance is good
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| 07:39 | <warren> it's a lot better than VNC
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| 07:39 | It is NOT for WAN's though
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| 07:39 | only LAN
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| 07:40 | <alkisg> VNC is unusable for daily desktop use... but e.g. remote X is fine, one can have 30 fps / HD video full screen with no dropped frames with 5% cpu usage
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| 07:40 | xfreerdp is also pretty lame for daily use
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| 07:40 | <warren> Faster than VNC, more efficient and lower bandwidth than X
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| 07:40 | <alkisg> NX claims that too, but it's way worse than X for lan
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| 07:40 | <warren> Youtube can fuck up a LTSP server with only a gigabit ethernet
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| 07:41 | spicy is wayyyy better than NX
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| 07:41 | <alkisg> It's much better for WAN, yes, but I've never seen anything better than plain remote X for LAN
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| 07:41 | * alkisg will give spice a try on first chance | |
| 07:41 | <warren> spice is pretty cool, but I'm doubtful it will be relevant for diskless clients in 10 years.
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| 07:41 | because client hardware is getting so cheap.
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| 07:43 | http://www.amazon.com/Ug802-Android-1-2ghz-Cortex-a9-Rockchip/dp/B009A6P2VC for example, dual core, 1GB RAM, 1920x1080 resolution, for $41.99 at retail prices. With the right firmware you could buy monitors, plug this in the back, and you have fat clients.
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| 07:43 | <Enslaver> warren: irc != bed
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| 07:44 | <warren> Enslaver: just got back from school, yeah, need to sleep
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| 07:44 | <alkisg> True, but it's not easy to do that in a big scale, e.g. for 10000 schools of 20 PCs each
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| 07:44 | So it'll have to be gradual
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| 07:44 | <Enslaver> btw i found a project of interest
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| 07:44 | Tiny core linux
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| 07:44 | <alkisg> Enslaver: I compared it to e.g. a debian thin client
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| 07:45 | I saw no benefit at all for LTSP
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| 07:45 | The only benefit is if your local media doesn't fit another distro
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| 07:45 | RAM usage was lower with Debian
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| 07:45 | More drivers supported, better multilingual support etc etc
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| 07:45 | <Enslaver> benefit now? no, but once pamauth and lightdm are included
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| 07:45 | <alkisg> With tiny core linux I had to ditch the preinstalled xvesa server in order to be able to type greek
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| 07:46 | So the RAM usage went from 80Mb to 128+ Mb
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| 07:46 | While with Debian/LXDE I had iceweasel open up with 128...
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| 07:46 | <warren> Enslaver: while I am glad that you are excited about different things, I only have time to support you on specific things.
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| 07:46 | <alkisg> ..and < 40 MB RAM at LDM
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| 07:47 | <Enslaver> yeah i was discussing the possibility of doing a DIY earlier
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| 07:47 | warren: huh?
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| 07:48 | <warren> You keep mentioning lots of different goals and ideas.
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| 07:48 | <Enslaver> I try not to take up your time
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| 07:48 | You're the only red hat resource i have atm
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| 07:48 | <warren> Enslaver: did you figure out more about pushing to ltsp-upstream and fedora git?
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| 07:48 | <Enslaver> i kan speek nglish 2u
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| 07:49 | warren: It appears its not taking my ssh keys
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| 07:49 | <warren> "It" being what?
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| 07:49 | <Enslaver> git push
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| 07:49 | fedpkg
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| 07:49 | anything
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| 07:49 | <warren> did you use "fedpkg co -B packagename" to checkout the tree using a fedora-packager-setup environment?
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| 07:50 | <Enslaver> [root@ibmltsp ~]# fedpkg co -B ltsp
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| 07:50 | Initialized empty Git repository in /root/ltsp/rpkg.git/
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| 07:50 | Permission denied (publickey).
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| 07:50 | fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
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| 07:50 | <warren> I think there's a place to upload your ssh pubkey to the Fedora Account System.
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| 07:50 | did you do that?
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| 07:51 | <Enslaver> I looked for that
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| 07:51 | Thats how launchpad does it
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| 07:51 | <warren> Enslaver: oh, does your local username match your FAS username?
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| 07:51 | <Enslaver> no
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| 07:51 | local - joshua
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| 07:51 | <warren> that might be an issue, there's an option for that
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| 07:51 | <Enslaver> i tried specifiying in .ssh/config
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| 07:52 | <warren> .ssh/config is not relevant to fedpkg
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| 07:52 | <Enslaver> right it looks at .fedora.cert right?
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| 07:52 | which is a key chainloader
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| 07:52 | <warren> Enslaver: the .cert isn't used for git, only for koji.
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| 07:53 | <Enslaver> i exported that to the differnt formats, hacked fedpkg a little and no go
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| 07:53 | <warren> Enslaver: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts login here, click on "My Account", you should see a thing there to upload your ssh pubkey
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| 07:53 | Enslaver: the .cert is separate from the ssh pubkey
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| 07:53 | <Enslaver> Hrm, that sounds too easy
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| 07:54 | <warren> mine has:
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| 07:54 | PGP Key:
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| 07:54 | Public SSH Key:
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| 07:54 | Security question:
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| 07:56 | <Enslaver> ok pushing specs
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| 07:56 | * warren looks | |
| 07:57 | <warren> el6 only right?
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| 07:57 | <Enslaver> si
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| 07:57 | el6->fc11->fc14->fc19
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| 07:57 | <warren> fc14?
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| 07:58 | why fc14?
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| 07:58 | <Enslaver> I already have an image for that i did a long time ago
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| 07:58 | it was my first working image on ltsp-5.1
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| 07:59 | <warren> It's hardware support is pretty similar to EL6
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| 07:59 | no compelling reason to support it, while Fedora 11 does
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| 08:00 | you could conceivably rebuild EL6 chroot rpm userspace packages only as i586 and provide a different kernel instead of F11, but that's a lot of work.
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| 08:00 | <Enslaver> you call the shots with fedora, you kinda like made it, plus i really dont mind less work :)
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| 08:00 | <warren> also many of the i686 .src.rpm packages would have dropped i586 support.
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| 08:01 | <Enslaver> but gonna need to move on fc19 fast
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| 08:01 | lightdm isnt compiling like i want it to on el6
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| 08:01 | <warren> yeah. I'd make F18 work first though, as it isn't unstable like rawhide.
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| 08:01 | once you have everything ported nicely to new-everything, then rawhide should theoretically be a rebuild
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| 08:02 | <Enslaver> by the time i get to fc18 fc19 will be out, so i was just gonna go ahead and grab that up front
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| 08:02 | <warren> It may slow you down because of how unstable it is
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| 08:02 | <Enslaver> all i'll be doing is making the virtual machine for it and grabbit the ks file it makes
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| 08:02 | grabbing*
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| 08:03 | <warren> whatever you can make work, soon this will all be yours
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| 08:03 | and I will be free
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| 08:03 | to run away
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| 08:03 | fast
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| 08:03 | <Enslaver> I have the feeling you once found this as exciting as i do currently
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| 08:04 | <warren> I spent 2001-2003 and ~2008-2010 on it.
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| 08:04 | don't get me wrong, it's still FUN
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| 08:05 | <Enslaver> I spend every day supporting this at work anyway
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| 08:05 | <warren> that's good
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| 08:05 | I never did
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| 08:05 | I'm interested in where you go with fat client support.
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| 08:05 | <Enslaver> what brought you into it?
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| 08:05 | <warren> Enslaver: schools
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| 08:06 | <Enslaver> I work with some guys that contract with us through layer3 and we discussed the idea of doing that but wirelessly
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| 08:06 | they are big aruba guys
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| 08:06 | and do all the schools around here
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| 08:07 | <warren> there was a few years ago a massive LTSP deployment in Quebec
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| 08:07 | the central servers were remote, schools reached it via fiber
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| 08:07 | I don't think that scales anymore. Youtube remote video fucks up bandwidth these days.
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| 08:07 | <Enslaver> Once of our offices is right outside quebec
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| 08:08 | <alkisg> There's localapps or fat clients for youtube and the like
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| 08:08 | <Enslaver> i'll let those guys know, they'll get a kick out of that
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| 08:08 | It took me forever to get local/remote apps working right on el6
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| 08:08 | <warren> really? what was the issue?
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| 08:08 | <Enslaver> I pretty much ripped out the way it was doing it with ldm
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| 08:08 | the way it was making the xdg-mime .desktop files
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| 08:08 | in 01-localapps
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| 08:09 | <warren> ooh
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| 08:09 | <Enslaver> it was not, 'LSB' friendly :)
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| 08:09 | <warren> is that fix heading upstream?
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| 08:09 | <Enslaver> hard pointing to /usr/local/applications or somthing
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| 08:09 | Yessir
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| 08:09 | But the issue with that is its in LDM which is going away
| |
| 08:10 | right alkisg?
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| 08:10 | to lightdm?
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| 08:10 | <alkisg> Enslaver: the infrastructure will stick around thouhg
| |
| 08:10 | <warren> Is that certain? I hear only talk without proof of a complete reimplementation that solves the underlying problems.
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| 08:10 | <alkisg> The underlying problem is "maintainance", not anything else specific
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| 08:10 | <warren> yes, we had this debate already
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| 08:11 | show the working code is superior
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| 08:11 | <alkisg> *IF* the pam* implementation sbalneav's working on actually does what it promises,
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| 08:11 | <Enslaver> the method we have it deployed is this: client calls launcher bash script-> launcher determines the 'fatness' of the client and runs ltsp-open $bin or $bin itself based on that
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| 08:11 | <alkisg> then yeah LDM will be deprecated so that we maintain one less code tree
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| 08:11 | <Enslaver> and /home is nfs mounted on each client
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| 08:12 | so no matter which system the app runs from it grrabs the same config
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| 08:12 | <warren> you found nfs is more reliable than sshfs?
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| 08:12 | <Enslaver> mime-types have been pre-set on the server in the mime.types
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| 08:12 | hard coded though
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| 08:12 | <warren> Enslaver: is only the logged in user's /home/$username mounted?
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| 08:12 | <Enslaver> warren: nfs hasnt given us problems, no reason to change
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| 08:12 | warren: Yes, through autofs
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| 08:13 | <warren> nfsv3 or nvs4?
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| 08:13 | <Enslaver> running NIS server / Ldap backing
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| 08:13 | v3
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| 08:13 | <warren> you know what I mean
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| 08:13 | hmm...
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| 08:13 | is that spoofable?
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| 08:13 | <warren> a client with root access can mount any user's home dir
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| 08:14 | <Enslaver> a client with root access doesnt apply for us, but the user needs the other users password to mount that 'speciifc' home directory
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| 08:14 | <warren> I assume that's why LTSP preferred sshfs
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| 08:14 | oh
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| 08:14 | ok
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| 08:14 | <Enslaver> we dont squash user/group into one
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| 08:14 | the only 'security' issue is the NIS part
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| 08:15 | <alkisg> Enslaver: how do you do that? E.g. suppose I come there with my laptop and "replace" one of your clients with (fake its mac, get its IP...) and try to mount /home/someuser, what will prevent me from doing that?
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| 08:15 | <Enslaver> if we were to consider that one, but everything is physically secure and our users know nothing about linux
| |
| 08:15 | which helps :)
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| 08:15 | <warren> note, it isn't like LTSP default is any more secure. unencrypted X is huge fail.
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| 08:15 | <Enslaver> alkisg: if you were to get an IP you have to authenticate to the NIS before it will allow you an export
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| 08:16 | <alkisg> It's not unencrypted by default
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| 08:16 | <warren> alkisg: it isn't? it was a few years ago...
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| 08:16 | <Enslaver> x11vnc =)
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| 08:16 | <alkisg> No, LDM_DIRECTX is false since 2007 when I started using LTSP
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| 08:16 | <warren> hmm
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| 08:16 | <Enslaver> in ltsp, but not by default in *nix
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| 08:17 | <alkisg> Enslaver: ah, so NIS protects your NFS exports, nothing LTSP related there, OK, cool
| |
| 08:17 | <Enslaver> correct
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| 08:17 | well, LDAP is the control for it all
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| 08:18 | i have custom hooks in the DS
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| 08:18 | <alkisg> Enslaver: err wait, so how do clients mount NFS /home before login? They don't?
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| 08:18 | <Enslaver> correct
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| 08:18 | <alkisg> So it gets unmounted on logout?
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| 08:18 | <Enslaver> yeah, with some issue sometimes
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| 08:18 | hung processes/etc..
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| 08:18 | <alkisg> So that too should suffer from the sshfs/ldm issues...
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| 08:18 | <Enslaver> nfslocks
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| 08:19 | <warren> I really like VDI and spice, but that completely cuts out the ability to have hybrid localapps
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| 08:19 | <alkisg> Let's see if the "forcibly kill all local processes on logout" helps in NFS too
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| 08:19 | <warren> the spice protocol is soooo much better than X though
| |
| 08:19 | <Enslaver> yeah and we MUST have hybrid localapps
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| 08:19 | I honestly want to do a application server/fat client/local apps thing
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| 08:20 | email/web/db client all on LTSP
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| 08:20 | crossover office/cad software etc.. on app server
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| 08:20 | <warren> crossover office works?
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| 08:20 | <Enslaver> loadbalancing across
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| 08:20 | yes, very nicely
| |
| 08:20 | <warren> haven't tried it in years
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| 08:20 | what version of office supported?
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| 08:20 | <Enslaver> its at version 12 i believe
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| 08:20 | <warren> 2010? 2013?
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| 08:20 | <Enslaver> we run 2010
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| 08:21 | <warren> Enslaver: you're in a position to document real usable RH-based deployments far more than I was
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| 08:21 | <Enslaver> Just be sure to disable all 'Protected' documents :)
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| 08:21 | <warren> given you actually use it
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| 08:21 | <Enslaver> or you'll have a major headache
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| 08:22 | <warren> I'm guessing that tries to access some DRM library in Windows and blows up?
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| 08:22 | <Enslaver> i've always known that the thin client will take over the work and school environment, or at least the methodology of 1 server that pushes out to little desktops
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| 08:23 | i.e. IT people dont want to do desktop rollouts any longer
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| 08:23 | 1 central point of management
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| 08:23 | <warren> That used to be true, except client hardware is way too cheap now. The future will be Chromebook-style vs. Fat client-style
| |
| 08:24 | http://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/devices/chromebox.html#specs
| |
| 08:24 | <Enslaver> I consider both fat clients, actually in my paradyme I will consider anything with 512mb of ram or more a fat client
| |
| 08:24 | <warren> tried this hardware? looks like a good price for dual monitor
| |
| 08:24 | <Enslaver> yah i got the acer c7
| |
| 08:24 | <warren> 4GB RAM!
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| 08:24 | <Enslaver> $329 tho :/
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| 08:24 | <warren> this box could comfortably run ChromeOS, Fat client or local VDI
| |
| 08:25 | <Enslaver> no hdd
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| 08:25 | <warren> don't need it
| |
| 08:25 | <Enslaver> no usb 3.0
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| 08:26 | <warren> that's a lot of RAM for a weak single core CPU
| |
| 08:26 | <Enslaver> what cpu?
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| 08:26 | arch?
| |
| 08:26 | <warren> Celeron
| |
| 08:26 | <Enslaver> ghz?
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| 08:26 | <warren> it doesn't say
| |
| 08:26 | <Enslaver> hmm
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| 08:26 | prob 1.4
| |
| 08:26 | <warren> oh
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| 08:26 | 1.9GHz dual core
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| 08:26 | not too bad
| |
| 08:27 | faster than AMD E-series at least
| |
| 08:27 | <Enslaver> http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-XE300M22-B01US-Chromebox/dp/B00B3R4W62/ref=br_lf_m_2858603011_1_4_img?ie=UTF8&s=pc&pf_rd_p=1486011422&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=2858603011&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0FJ3N9FZNBTQJRZTKDC7
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| 08:27 | Better
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| 08:27 | Boots in 1 second, HD, 4gb memory, cheaper
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| 08:27 | 160gb ssd
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| 08:28 | <warren> Enslaver: http://www.amazon.com/Ug802-Android-1-2ghz-Cortex-a9-Rockchip/dp/B009A6P2VC something like this with ethernet and a X driver would be awesome. could easily be $50
| |
| 08:29 | <Enslaver> I have one
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| 08:29 | 2 actually
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| 08:29 | <warren> "Rumors are circulating that Acer is planning to unveil a new Chromebox -- a compact desktop computer powered by Google's Chrome OS -- that could retail for as little has $99."
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| 08:29 | <Enslaver> the HDMI is messed up on one of them
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| 08:30 | <warren> Enslaver: yeah, build quality of those chinese no-brand things is low
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| 08:31 | <Enslaver> yeah its junk, comes with a junky remote
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| 08:31 | also bought a XIOS
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| 08:31 | not liking that either
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| 08:31 | Raspi is the only one im happy with
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| 08:32 | minus the fact it has no pxe
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| 08:32 | <Mava> btw, any estimation.. how much does virtualization reduce the performance when using ltsp? having an 3ghz dual xeon with 12gigs of ram and scsi disks, and having an idea to install esxi4.0 into it and install ltsp in one virtual machine..
| |
| 08:32 | <warren> Mava: almost no difference if setup properly
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| 08:32 | <Mava> nice
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| 08:32 | <warren> assuming your ltsp server is within a VM
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| 08:33 | <Mava> currently it is not.. just in a bare metal with ubuntu
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| 08:33 | <warren> no real benefit to moving it in a VM
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| 08:34 | <Mava> but after that I have possibility to install another operating systems to the same hw
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| 08:34 | .. which I need...
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| 08:34 | <warren> add more RAM, that box can run lots in parallel
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| 08:34 | <Mava> and this looks good.. lets hit to the business right away, thanks warren =) -->
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| 08:34 | <warren> I have xeon boxes here with 64GB RAM
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| 08:34 | RAM is cheap
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| 08:35 | Mava: you may want to add more gige cards
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| 08:35 | Mava: LTSP can wipe out a gigabit ethernet bandwidth real easily
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| 08:36 | * warren sleep | |
| 08:38 | <Enslaver> Mava: I can send you my perf info, i run 100 thin clients on 1 quad xeon server with 16gb ram
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| 08:39 | But i can't recommend running it under a virtual machine
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| 08:39 | I've had nothing but problems with desktops served from a virtual machine
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| 08:39 | <Mava> hmm?
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| 08:39 | no way?
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| 08:40 | are problems mostly performance or ?
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| 08:40 | <Enslaver> yeah we had to do a corporate rollback
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| 08:40 | I to this day am still not sure what the heck happened
| |
| 08:40 | lost files, random slowdowns, disappearing printers
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| 08:41 | <Mava> you are brave that you did one, since genre is that rollbacks are not made because of politics
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| 08:41 | whoa, nice disaster scenario
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| 08:41 | <Enslaver> We tried for months to pinpoint it
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| 08:41 | found LOTS of deep hidden bugs in vsphere
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| 08:43 | and the bad thing is, that computer was dedicated to that one virtual machine, we took virtualization hypervizor out of the picture and instantly things were perfect
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| 08:43 | the sar on our system shows 91-95% free and 0.1 iowait
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| 08:43 | <Mava> so the virtualization was the main problem.. did you run some vmotion etc on there ?
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| 08:44 | <Enslaver> nope, that was the plan though, 3 servers hooked up iscsi
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| 08:44 | we started with 1, no iscsi, basic local storage
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| 08:44 | i know it works, ive seen it work out there in the world, it just did not for us
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| 08:46 | And everything did work in my lab, even vmotion, which was neat
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| 08:48 | <Mava> that is really neat
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| 08:51 | we runned glustered iscsi with esxi in the lab few months ago.. the test was disaster, since we could not make the system free from single point of failure
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| 08:52 | seems that the lower in OSI level we created the high availability, the harder and misarble the test went
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| 08:52 | <Enslaver> you turn on jumbo frames?
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| 08:53 | <Mava> did not
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| 08:54 | i bet that the hw itself was problem.. while using just linux and consumer electronic devices it was not possible
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| 08:54 | we should have had something like Hp EVA etc.
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| 08:55 | <Enslaver> hp makes killer switches
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| 08:55 | their procurve line is unbeatabke
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| 08:56 | <Mava> currently they are nice I admit
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| 08:56 | <warren> Enslaver: tried kvm instead?
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| 08:57 | <Mava> are they btw. manufacturing routers/firewalls at all?
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| 08:57 | <Enslaver> warren: no, i want to test it
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| 08:59 | <Mava> try also ganeti with kvm, it should be nice scenario
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| 08:59 | <Enslaver> kvm 64 bit yet?
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| 08:59 | <Mava> should be
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| 09:00 | not sure though
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| 09:00 | <Enslaver> i can't stand xen so i stayed away
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| 09:01 | <Mava> it aint that bad.. at least i've liked citrix Xenserver quite a lot. stabile enough and you can do lot of stuff with the cli
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| 09:03 | but it is just the easy way instead of running kvm
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| 09:03 | currently the companies are quite intrested in guys who knows howto operate with kvm
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| 09:06 | <Enslaver> i'm more about HPC clusters
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| 09:06 | <Mava> hpc?
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| 09:06 | <Enslaver> i started working with clusters when beowulf linux was out to help frame geophysical data for oil/gas companys
| |
| 09:07 | high performance computing
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| 09:07 | <Mava> aa, nice
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| 09:09 | <warren> xen and kvm are different but not too difficult to manage
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| 09:09 | <Enslaver> Well i didn't like Xen's Dom0 approach
| |
| 09:10 | and its lack of management ability at the time i looked at it
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| 09:10 | <meamy> kvm works realy well over hear with ltsp (around 30 clients)
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| 09:10 | <Mava> d0mm3d..
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| 09:10 | <Enslaver> kvm = qemu ?
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| 09:10 | <meamy> yep
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| 09:11 | <warren> kvm is a type of qemu
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| 09:11 | <muppis> qemu with hw support.
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| 09:11 | <warren> if you setup kvm wrong, it runs qemu with software virt
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| 09:11 | which sucks
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| 09:12 | <Enslaver> All my home servers are used up or i'd try it
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| 09:12 | I might purchase another, i got my last ibm 3650 for $200 on ebay, lol
| |
| 09:24 | <alkisg> Ah also one of the main reasons we ditched kvm in favor of vbox is because vbox is way better when hw support is not available, it does binary translation or something and runs the result natively, many times faster than kvm there
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| 09:25 | So local win XP VM over LTSP booted in 10 minutes with kvm, 1 with vbox
| |
| 09:26 | <warren> Enslaver: Dell Optiplex 760 towers with Core 2 Quad are really cheap from surplus shops and ebay
| |
| 09:27 | <Enslaver> they support cpu vx?
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| 09:31 | <muppis> alkisg, without hw support?
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| 09:31 | <baptiste> beware of the Q8200 lol
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| 09:31 | <alkisg> muppis: yeah, many PCs don't include hw virtualization support
| |
| 09:31 | <baptiste> CPU should be dependent on configuration at purchase time
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| 09:31 | <alkisg> Unless you purchased the CPU 10 years ago before KVM was invented :P
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| 09:32 | Or unless the cpu is very recent, and the school purchased it before switching to LTSP
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| 09:32 | ...which would be about 100,000 clients or so...
| |
| 09:32 | +150,000 the student atom notebooks...
| |
| 09:33 | <baptiste> my sempron LE-1100 on AM2 socket had virtualisation support. it's Intel disabling features at random, on purpose, to piss you off
| |
| 09:34 | they have curbed that a lot, now they disable stuff like AVX instead.
| |
| 09:36 | 09:23 < warren> That used to be true, except client hardware is way too cheap now. The future will be Chromebook-style vs. Fat client-style
| |
| 09:36 | warren, but could thin clients drop down to something like $30
| |
| 09:37 | <alkisg> With quad core phones emerging, /me isn't so sure what "thin" vs "fat" will mean wrt hw specs...
| |
| 09:37 | <baptiste> I could see myself spending more on a keyb+mouse than the hardware cost
| |
| 09:45 | last time I bought a phone it cost 15 euros, I doubt it had more than one core. 15 euros for a whole new phone, that was unbelievable.
| |
| 09:46 | <muppis> Last time I bought a phone it cost 600€.
| |
| 09:47 | But it got Linux as OS. :)
| |
| 09:49 | (Over 3 years ago and still using it.)
| |
| 09:52 | <baptiste> does it have a ctrl key :)
| |
| 09:53 | <muppis> Sure. :)
| |
| 09:53 | Nokia N900
| |
| 10:13 | <knipwim> Nokia N9 here :)
| |
| 10:13 | <elias_a> Here as well.
| |
| 10:21 | <muppis> Maybe my next phone is Linux based aswell. Or hopefully this lasts long enough. :)
| |
| 10:29 | <elias_a> I am waiting for Jolla mobile to come out with something.
| |
| 10:33 | <muppis> Me too, but I ain't betting for it. :)
| |
| 10:39 | <baptiste> I'm waiting for low end smartphones with Firefox OS (and hopefully LTE-Advanced support in case I need it), maybe.
| |
| 10:42 | with firefox OS not being the be all, end all thing but a good start with something more free than Android (with "gonk" as a minimalist linux distro underneath)
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| 10:44 | I think the target hardware is cheap ass single core with 1GB ram.
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| 11:24 | <sha_> hi, i need to install cupsd in client-chroot and i'm not really sure what's the best approach. should i stop cupsd on server, so i could start it in chroot for installing/configuring printers? or do you think it's possible to just copy the already configured cupsd files from server into chroot? also, is it sufficient to delete client.conf in chroot, or will it be regenerated at some point?
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| 11:24 | i should have say "fat-client"
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| 12:51 | <sha_> ok so i installed printers in chroot. everything's fine except that /etc/cups/client.conf seems to be generated at every boot, so i have to delete it on a fatclient and restart cups. do you have any clue how i can prevent the generation of client.conf?
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| 12:55 | <Enslaver> sha_: the concept is that your server advertises the printers to the browsing clients
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| 12:56 | and the way to remove cups is: sudo ltsp-chroot
| |
| 12:56 | then use your distro's package management
| |
| 12:56 | apt-get remove cups || yum remove cups
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| 12:56 | <sha_> Enslaver: i don't want to remove cups, i just want to set the print server
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| 12:57 | <Enslaver> The print server should be generated and placed into the /etc/cups/client.conf
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| 12:57 | <sha_> yes, but how can i influence that?
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| 12:57 | i want the client to not use a remote server
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| 12:58 | <Enslaver> the easy way is to add an entry in /etc/rc.local
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| 12:58 | <sha_> i'm pretty sure there must be an undocumented variable like PRINT_SERVER=""
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| 12:58 | <Enslaver> that reads like this: echo >> /etc/cups/client.conf
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| 12:58 | <sha_> thanks, but that's pretty ugly
| |
| 13:00 | and i'm not really sure if that would work, since /etc/rc.local is executed after cups i guess
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| 13:00 | sure, i could do a "restart cups" also in /etc/rc.local etc. but then it gets even uglier
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| 13:01 | <Enslaver> its CUPS_SERVER=""
| |
| 13:02 | <sha_> oh wow, really? i'm trying that. how did you find it?
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| 13:03 | <Enslaver> cd ltsp-trunk ; find . -exec grep client.conf "{}" \; -print
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| 13:03 | something like that
| |
| 13:04 | <sha_> nice.. thank you
| |
| 13:08 | wow, and it even works! :)
| |
| 13:08 | thank you very much, Enslaver
| |
| 13:08 | i should rethink my "man lts.conf" approach :)
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| 13:15 | <Enslaver> np
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| 15:28 | <ltspuser_18> Hi
| |
| 15:29 | How can I re-run ltsp, with new lts.conf, in terminal console (I don't want to reboot the terminal)
| |
| 15:31 | <alkisg> You cannot do that easily, currently ltsp reads its config only upon boot
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| 15:34 | <ltspuser_18> I need to put a login screen.... and after the user puts his credentials I want to edit the lts.conf and then open the ldm session....
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| 15:35 | it's possible?
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| 15:36 | <meamy> ltspuser_18: for testing you could modify /etc/lts.conf (workflow would be logout as normal user, login via consol as root, modify /etc/lts.conf, run getltspcfg -a, login over ldm again. But be warned this could mess up a lot of things )
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| 15:37 | <ltspuser_18> which things?
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| 15:39 | <meamy> ltspuser_18: mm depends what value you modify you have to look into the scripts under /usr/share/ltsp and /usr/share/ldm most of the values are processed there
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| 15:39 | <ltspuser_18> or there's another way to have two steps to login...
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| 15:39 | ok
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| 15:40 | I only need to change the IP of the ldm or redesktop server...
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| 15:40 | rdesktop*
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| 16:01 | <alkisg> As I said, you can just modify /etc/hosts of the client
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| 16:01 | You don't need to change lts.conf
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| 16:02 | All you need is a pressh script
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| 16:04 | <ogra_> a press-h script ? doing virtual keypresses ?
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| 16:04 | :)
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| 16:05 | <alkisg> It would constantly press "h" :D
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| 16:10 | <meamy> http://www.kongregate.com/games/BlueTopazGames/press-h-button-mash
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| 17:32 | <ltspuser_93> Hi
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| 17:33 | I need to change the lts.conf and then start all the things with that lts.conf
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| 17:34 | but I don't want to reboot the terminal
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| 17:34 | how can I do that?
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| 17:34 | I tried getltspcfg -a but don't do nothing....
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| 17:35 | I need to re open all the sessions...
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| 17:50 | <alkisg> Yeah we answered 2 times already..
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| 17:50 | ...erm *I* answered 2 times, the others here many more
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| 17:57 | <ltspuser_93> sorry
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| 17:57 | but my connection went down
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| 17:57 | and I didn't saw
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| 17:57 | can you explain one more time?
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| 18:46 | <alkisg> knipwim: This doesn't work for me: date -d "$(date --utc -d '2013/02/25 18:30')"
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| 18:46 | This does: date -d '2013/02/25 18:30 +0000'
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| 18:47 | And this does too: date -d '2013/02/25 18:30 UTC'
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| 18:47 | The first one that doesn't work says: LC_ALL=C date -d "$(date --utc -d '2013/02/25 18:30')"
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| 18:47 | Thu Feb 14 00:00:00 EET 2013
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| 18:48 | <alkisg> Ah, ok, this one does work, but I think the second one I wrote above is simpler...
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| 18:48 | date -d "$(LC_ALL=C date --utc -d '2013/02/25 18:30')"
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| 18:49 | (all this is about the wiki, http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Meeting:Upcoming)
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| 18:50 | Also, I'm not able to add text to that page... could you add "discuss google summer of code, and coding style"?
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| 18:51 | <vagrantc> alkisg: date --utc doesn't work for you?
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| 18:51 | weird.
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| 18:51 | <alkisg> vagrantc: it does, but it's output isn't parseable
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| 18:51 | <vagrantc> ah, right.
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| 18:51 | :)
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| 18:52 | locale issues... got it.
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| 18:52 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 18:52 | So it's probably safer written as: date -d '2013/02/25 18:30 UTC'
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| 18:52 | <vagrantc> whatever works most consistantly... i just want a simple way to report meeting times :)
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| 20:04 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: Hey! For the upcoming hackathon, what would be the chance of updating libpam-sshauth to the 0.2 version I've got up there now? Here's some benefits:
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| 20:04 | 1) autogen.sh now uses the autoregen syste,
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| 20:04 | 2) I've got the naming consistent, so make dist actually produces libpam-sshauth-0.2.tar.[gb]z
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| 20:05 | 3) man pages up to date
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| 20:05 | 4) copyright dates up to date
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| 20:05 | if there's anything else you need out of me, that would make packaging easier, let me know.
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| 20:06 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: i could give a crack at it, but would only be allowable into debian's experimental archive, since it's in freeze right now.
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| 20:07 | <sbalneav> That's fine.
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| 20:08 | The existing packaging should pretty much work out-of-the-box, with the exception of a dch -i
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| 20:57 | <Enslaver> Think i'll have any issues with libpam-sshauth on el6?
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| 20:57 | i've been struggling a bit with lightdm tho
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| 20:59 | * vagrantc struggles with lightdm's broken autologin features | |
| 21:00 | <Enslaver> at least you have it compiled :/
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| 21:00 | <jammcq> why not use whatever is normally used on that distro?
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| 21:00 | * vagrantc concurs with jammcq | |
| 21:00 | <jammcq> gdm3 for debian, and I dunno what for RH
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| 21:00 | <vagrantc> although "normal" for debian depends on what desktop environment you have installed.
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| 21:01 | <jammcq> maybe it's easiest to focus on getting lightdm working first, but seems like that's where we should end up
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| 21:01 | vagrantc: yeah, but if you just do a straight install of the latest debian, you get gnome
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| 21:01 | <Enslaver> Does cinnamon have an auth frontend?
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| 21:01 | <jammcq> btw, when is it gonna be final?
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| 21:01 | <vagrantc> jammcq: it is, believe it or not, an alphabetical sorting issue.
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| 21:01 | * jammcq likes cinnamon on his french toast | |
| 21:02 | <jammcq> mmmm, that sounds good right about now
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| 21:02 | <Enslaver> Looking into this code i see that getting the thin clients working is gonna be a challenge, pretty much a re-write of all the ldm/scripts
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| 21:02 | fat*
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| 21:02 | <vagrantc> ??
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| 21:03 | if it works for multiple versions of debian, ubuntu, gentoo, *suse, even fedora ... what's so different about EL6 that would require a rewrite?
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| 21:03 | <Enslaver> I'm gonna be calling anaconda to do the fat client install, then for local apps all the ldm local/remote ap stuff is gonna need to change
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| 21:03 | vagrantc: theres no way
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| 21:04 | <vagrantc> Enslaver: could you be more... specific? :P
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| 21:04 | <Enslaver> yes
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| 21:04 | lemme find that script
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| 21:05 | looking at X01-remoteapps
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| 21:06 | there is no update-mime on rh
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| 21:06 | the format that it generates to make menus is completely different
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| 21:06 | no /usr/lib/mime directory on rh
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| 21:07 | locale's are slightly different
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| 21:08 | It's passing null results to other scripts
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| 21:08 | its trying to save temporary files to the same folder as the script (screen-x)
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| 21:09 | we have no xcompmgr :(
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| 21:10 | * vagrantc suspects some of those things are optional | |
| 21:10 | <vagrantc> but yes, remoteapps is a pretty ugly hack
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| 21:10 | <Enslaver> everything i just mentioned is 'optional'
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| 21:11 | <vagrantc> admittedly remoteapps and localapps carry quite a few problems...
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| 21:11 | <Enslaver> i can write something that keeps everything kinda standard through LSB
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| 21:11 | XDG is pretty standard throughout the distros right?
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| 21:11 | freedesktop.org put that out i believe
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| 21:11 | <vagrantc> sure hope so.
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| 21:12 | XDG is what's mainly leveraged for localapps ...
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| 21:12 | <Enslaver> and i think alacarte generates menu's for xdg
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| 21:12 | So i can use that as a app processor
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| 21:13 | <vagrantc> that looks like a GUI app ... does it work ok from a commandline?
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| 21:13 | <Enslaver> it has both
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| 21:13 | pygtk+ frontend and python backend
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| 21:14 | and constantly updated
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| 21:14 | cross/distro
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| 21:20 | <alkisg> Enslaver: local/remote apps need a lot of work, yeah, but plain fat clients should be easy to support in el6, right?
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| 21:20 | <Enslaver> yes, but i wanna get a better understanding of what a 'fat' client is on ubuntu
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| 21:21 | * vagrantc would focus on thin clients and fat clients, and the rest needs a bit of an overhaul. | |
| 21:21 | <Enslaver> when i think fat client, i think of offloading the workload of the server, which means local apps
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| 21:21 | <alkisg> Yes, everything is local
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| 21:21 | The server is only used for authentication and as a remote OS + home disk
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| 21:22 | OS with NBD or NFS, home with SSHFS orNFS
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| 21:22 | <vagrantc> but it doesn't use the localapps infrastructure.
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| 21:22 | <alkisg> So it's pretty much like a local installation, with just a few tweaks...
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| 21:22 | e.g. preventing network manager from messing with the network connection, using ldm and all the lts.conf magic...
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| 21:23 | <vagrantc> homedir mounting is mainly what it shares with localapps
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| 21:23 | <alkisg> And authentication
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| 21:23 | <vagrantc> right
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| 21:23 | which needs... a considerable rewrite.
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| 21:23 | <alkisg> (copying the passwd entries from the server etc)
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| 21:24 | <vagrantc> i.e. libpam-sshauth and all that.
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| 21:24 | <alkisg> All those should be overhauled with the libpam* move
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| 21:24 | <vagrantc> and libnss-*
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| 21:24 | <alkisg> And possible the XRANDR* magic will get transformed as well..
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| 21:24 | <Enslaver> So what about large applications, VMware,
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| 21:24 | <alkisg> E.g. preferredmode in xorg.conf instead of "XRANDR_MODE_0"...
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| 21:25 | What about them?
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| 21:25 | I have a 6 Gb NBD image here for fat clients
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| 21:25 | <Enslaver> Also how do you manage the user processes?
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| 21:25 | <alkisg> With vbox and a lot more inside it, no problems at all
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| 21:25 | The user processes? They're local... usually one user per client... so?
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| 21:25 | Their only server-side processes are the ssh connections
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| 21:26 | <Enslaver> So when someone's Firefox locks up you'd have to login to their terminal to kill it
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| 21:26 | <alkisg> Ah, if you want to do that you can use epoptes
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| 21:27 | !epoptes
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| 21:27 | <ltsp> epoptes: Epoptes is a computer lab administration and monitoring tool. It works on Ubuntu and Debian based labs with LTSP or non-LTSP servers, thin and fat clients, standalone workstations, NX clients etc. More info: http://www.epoptes.org
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| 21:27 | <alkisg> Then it's a "terminal > run" killall firefox away
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| 21:27 | <Enslaver> On el6?
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| 21:27 | <alkisg> Yeah I think cyberorg packaged it for fedora, I assume it won't be much different in el6
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| 21:28 | Of course nothing prevents you from just installing ssh to the chroot, and maybe having a script regenerate ssh keys on boot
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| 21:29 | <vagrantc> regenerating ssh keys on boot without any means of verification is sort of pointless... no?
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| 21:29 | <Enslaver> Then you run into issues with who is on what terminal
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| 21:30 | so unless a ldap backend handles all the information it's not very easy on the admins
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| 21:30 | <alkisg> vagrantc: to prevent others from listening
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| 21:30 | Not for the server to trust the client...
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| 21:31 | <vagrantc> so it prevents a passive sniffing sort of attack, but not an active man-in-the-middle attack...
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| 21:32 | although it'd be a pretty active passive sniffing attack anyways...
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| 21:32 | <alkisg> Enslaver: if you don't want / can't use epoptes, then you'd have to write a small script that would check from the server sshd (or output of `w`) who is where...
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| 21:32 | <vagrantc> i guess you could log the packets and decrypt later...
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| 21:32 | <Enslaver> but ldm doesn't register its sessions with wtmp/utmp correctly
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| 21:32 | <vagrantc> it seems to on debian...
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| 21:33 | <alkisg> ldm doesn't run on the server
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| 21:33 | sshd registers the sessions fine...
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| 21:33 | <Enslaver> it uses ssh
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| 21:33 | * vagrantc nods to alkisg | |
| 21:33 | <Enslaver> maybe its broken in 5.1
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| 21:33 | for el6
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| 21:33 | <alkisg> So the output of `w` doesn't tell you the users + the terminals they've logged in?
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| 21:34 | <Enslaver> no, it only tells us who has a terminal window open
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| 21:34 | <alkisg> USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT
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| 21:34 | alkisg pts/3 localhost 23:34 0.00s 0.43s 0.01s w
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| 21:34 | The "FROM" column has the IP for LTSP clients...
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| 21:35 | <Enslaver> w|awk '{ print $1 }'|sort | uniq|wc -l
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| 21:35 | 35
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| 21:35 | <alkisg> Same for "who"
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| 21:35 | <Enslaver> ps aux|awk '{ print $1 }' | sort| uniq|wc -l
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| 21:35 | 67
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| 21:35 | given of course the <1024
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| 21:35 | uid
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| 21:36 | we have 35 people just logged in downstairs right now
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| 21:36 | <alkisg> sudo netstat -nap | grep 'ESTABLISHED.*sshd'
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| 21:36 | tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1:22 127.0.0.1:33350 ESTABLISHED 28958/sshd: alkisg
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| 21:36 | Yet another way, network based
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| 21:37 | <Enslaver> netstat -nap | grep 'ESTABLISHED.*sshd'|wc -l
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| 21:37 | 756
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| 21:37 | Thats just one of our servers
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| 21:38 | <alkisg> Well first you might be having problems with processes that stay alive after logout
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| 21:38 | <Enslaver> we have a cleanup script that runs at 2am
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| 21:38 | <alkisg> But in any case it should still be possible to detect where each user is
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| 21:38 | <Enslaver> it is, we keep a database backend
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| 21:39 | <alkisg> I mean with plain LTSP
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| 21:39 | <Enslaver> anythings possible, I really want to design something that gives ease of management
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| 21:40 | <alkisg> That's why we implemented epoptes :)
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| 21:40 | <Enslaver> i like that http://www.epoptes.org/
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| 21:40 | its very nice looking and clean
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| 21:40 | gonna download it now and play with it a bit
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| 21:41 | it pretty easy to develop for?
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| 21:41 | <alkisg> pygtk + shell, yeah
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| 21:43 | <Enslaver> right now we use a menu system that does a x11vnc tunnel
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| 21:43 | <vagrantc> alkisg: have you used epoptes over a wan?
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| 21:44 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I think I've tried it once, but X over wan is slow,
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| 21:44 | ah and I also tried it with x2go multiple times over wan
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| 21:44 | It works fine that way
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| 21:44 | Meh
| |
| 21:44 | No I haven't tried the clients to be over wan and the epoptes daemon to be local
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| 21:44 | That shouldn't be slow, it should run fine...
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| 21:45 | <vagrantc> yeah, i meant local daemon
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| 21:45 | <alkisg> The only problem I see there are the thumbnails
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| 21:46 | 64k x (number of clients), once every 5 seconds
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| 21:46 | <vagrantc> ouch...
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| 21:46 | alkisg: would it make sense to throttle that based on some latency check?
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| 21:47 | <alkisg> vagrantc: Phantomas has implemented thumbnail zooming
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| 21:47 | So it'd be easy to request tiny thumbnails,
| |
| 21:47 | ...and we should also have some setting for the interval...
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| 21:48 | For automatic... I don't know it needs too much thinking + testing, other things have bigger priority (like the ldm+sshfs problem :P)
| |
| 21:50 | Ah, what we already have is "5 seconds after the last thumbnail is successfully transferred"
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| 21:50 | So it'll work with low bandwidth too, but if it's too low, it'll consume most of it
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| 21:50 | 'night all
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| 21:53 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: which branch should i be pulling from? http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sbalneav/ltsp/libpam-sshauth/ ?
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| 21:55 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: Yes. Gimme one more day, I just found a malloc I'm not freeing :)
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| 21:55 | <vagrantc> free the mallocs.
| |
| 21:55 | <sbalneav> Yup.
| |
| 21:56 | Malloc()s yearn to be free().
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| 21:56 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: and will any of the libnss-* need updates?
| |
| 21:56 | <sbalneav> not for now, no.
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| 21:57 | <jammcq> see now, if you'd written it in Cobol, you wouldn't have to worry about freeing the malloc
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| 21:57 | <sbalneav> Wow. "mallocs yearn to be free" has no google hits. I made a brand-new funny.
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| 21:58 | * jammcq smells a new t-shirt coming "Mallocs yearn to be free" | |
| 21:58 | * vagrantc goes on safari | |
| 21:58 | <ogra_> jammcq, but you would have to pay a fortune for maintenance later
| |
| 21:58 | * sbalneav googles for cobol libraries for pam | |
| 21:58 | <jammcq> ogra_: yeah, part of my evil plan :)
| |
| 21:58 | <ogra_> haha
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| 21:59 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: i'm not sure about that AC_INIT change ... i think then lintian may then complain about calling it libpam-libpam-sshauth or something.
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| 21:59 | <sbalneav> Well, I'll run lintian on it.
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| 21:59 | I did that so make dist actually produces libpam-sshauth.blah-de-blah
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| 22:00 | ah! So in C, it's pam_set_data()
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| 22:00 | in cobol it's
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| 22:00 | store_a_copy_of_a_pointer_that_points_to_data_into_the_pam_handle_retuning_a_status_variable
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| 22:01 | <jammcq> sbalneav: well... yeah, but upper case
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| 22:01 | <sbalneav> Gonna have to shrink the font on my terminal :)
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| 22:01 | <jammcq> and it starts in col 12 and must end before col 72
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| 22:01 | end ends with a period
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| 22:02 | oh wait. paragraph names are limited to 32 chars, so that'll never work
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| 22:02 | * vagrantc hopes that period ends soon, yes. | |
| 22:03 | <vagrantc> oh, i don't think we have libnss-env in debian yet...
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| 22:03 | <sbalneav> don't need it.
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| 22:03 | That was an experiment that didn't work out :)
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| 22:03 | Unless you want it for another purpose :)
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| 22:04 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: i wonder if you get get --rsyncable into GZIP_ENV ...
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| 22:04 | not that this is probably big enough to matter much
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| 22:07 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: the "make dist" includes all the autofoo ... i might end up making a tarball without it for debian...
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| 22:08 | can cause mostly meaningless diffs between versions, which hinder review of updates.
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| 22:10 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: Oh, ok, wonder if there's a way we can exclude that stuff....
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| 22:11 | <vagrantc> it's a fairly standard practice to include it, but in recent years Debian at least has discouraged it...
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| 22:12 | just because it makes security updates and freeze exception updates noisier for no real reason ...
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| 22:12 | i tend to use dh_autoreconf and tarballs without all the generated autofoo.
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| 22:14 | <sbalneav> Is there a page you can point to that has some appropriate autofoo to exclude most of the autofoo in the dist, per debian's wants?
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| 22:14 | I want to make it as easy as I can to package
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| 22:14 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: anything you wouldn't maintain in revision control
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| 22:15 | <sbalneav> ok, I know there's a DIST_EXCLUDE directive. I'll see what that can do...
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| 22:15 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: i.e. after running ./configure ... "bzr di" shouldn't show changes.thing.
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| 22:42 | <warren> Enslaver: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-Thinkpad-X120E-0611-AH9-11-6-3GB-320GB-WiFi-CAM-Bluetooth-Charity-/140874778639
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| 22:42 | Enslaver: pretty good deal for clients, except the color =(
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| 22:42 | <Enslaver> they are horrid
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| 22:42 | we have a stack of them in our war room :(
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| 22:43 | <warren> horrid in what way? I've had many X100e and X120e's with no problem
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| 22:43 | <Enslaver> we use the t60
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| 22:43 | <warren> I have a T60 too
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| 22:43 | <Enslaver> well, used to
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| 22:43 | <warren> what happened?
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| 22:43 | <Enslaver> ever since lenovo took over ibm's desktop lineup their sub part equipment is not up to spec
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| 22:43 | <warren> most X and T Thinkpads were great
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| 22:43 | <Enslaver> back when IBM owned them they were
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| 22:44 | <warren> well yeah, I used to do the 3 year full price warranty, and made good use of it
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| 22:44 | <Enslaver> warren: got a Q for you, can you point me to some resources for learning to use anaconda, I'm gonna be using that to build the fat clients
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| 22:44 | <warren> lately i've just bought dead laptops cheap for parts
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| 22:44 | Enslaver: I don't understand anaconda all that well
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| 22:44 | <Enslaver> I've done the basic google search, nothing helping :(
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| 22:44 | <warren> Enslaver: have you seen the custom anaconda hook that EL6 LTSP uses?
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| 22:45 | <Enslaver> no?
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| 22:45 | I know nothing about it
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| 22:45 | <warren> Enslaver: it's used in ltsp-build-client
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| 22:45 | <Enslaver> oh yeah i saw that code
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| 22:45 | <warren> Enslaver: anyway, I doubt it is compatible with Fedora 18
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| 22:45 | Enslaver: i recommend figuring out how to replace it with mock
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| 22:45 | mock works the same on all RH
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| 22:45 | vintages
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| 22:46 | <Enslaver> no wait, that was chroot-creator i was looking at
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| 22:46 | <warren> that's it
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| 22:46 | it's a wrapper subclass of anaconda
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| 22:46 | <Enslaver> yeah thats what i started modifying
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| 22:47 | <warren> Enslaver: does it work on fedora 18?
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| 22:47 | Enslaver: I suspect RHEL7 will be based on Fedora 19-21-ish
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| 22:47 | <Enslaver> no clue
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| 22:47 | I am doing the initial R&D stage right now to figure out what i am gonna use
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| 22:47 | <warren> for maintainability purposes, you will likely want a common installer that works on Fedora 11, EL6 and EL7
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| 22:47 | <Enslaver> yeah, been looking for one
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| 22:48 | <warren> the most certain way to do that is mock
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| 22:48 | <Enslaver> i've gotten used to kickstart
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| 22:49 | <warren> I rebuilt a Thinkpad X120e last week. My friend smashed her LCD. Bought a dead laptop from eBay and fixed it. I'm impressed by the layout inside that thing.
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| 22:49 | Taking apart recent Dell laptops, absolutely shitty design.
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| 22:49 | <Enslaver> was it IBM on the brand or lenovo?
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| 22:50 | <warren> Lenovo
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| 22:50 | <Enslaver> bleh
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| 22:50 | <warren> X120e is from 2010
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| 22:51 | <Enslaver> I just buy chrome books / MacBooks for laptops depending on budget
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| 22:52 | <Enslaver> any good mock front ends?
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| 22:52 | <warren> not really
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| 22:52 | mock is a backend workhorse
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| 22:52 | used by koji
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| 22:52 | or manually
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| 22:52 | in your case you want it to build a chroot but not packages within it
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| 22:53 | then ltsp-build-client scripts to configure stuff
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| 22:54 | <Enslaver> build a chroot but not packages?
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| 22:54 | <warren> mock builds a chroot, then builds a .src.rpm within it
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| 22:54 | <Enslaver> ah
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| 22:55 | <warren> anyway, I'd see if chroot-creator works with fedora 18 anaconda first
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| 22:55 | maybe it does
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| 22:55 | I doubt it
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| 22:56 | <Enslaver> i'll stick with mock, it looks straight forward
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| 22:57 | <warren> that's a good idea for hte long-term
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| 23:26 | <warren> Enslaver: btw, if you use bzr on Fedora 18, this is very helpful
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| 23:26 | Enslaver: http://wtogami.fedorapeople.org/bzr-gtk/
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| 23:26 | Enslaver: convenient visualization
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| 23:29 | <Enslaver> yah i love the visualize mode
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| 23:30 | <warren> Enslaver: any interest in being the Fedora package owner?
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| 23:31 | <Enslaver> lets get ltsp under my belt first
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| 23:35 | mock puts a ton of un-needed rpms out there :/
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| 23:35 | i see, the configs define the group install params
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| 23:37 | <warren> yeah
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| 23:37 | Enslaver: you'll probably want two Fedora 11 configs, one to make a chroot to build Fedora 11 RPMS, another to build the LTSP chroot.
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| 23:39 | <Enslaver> yah, what I'm thinking is keep everything completely separate, the ltsp mock files will be in ltsp-build-client/mock and will install to /opt/ltsp/$target
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| 23:46 | <warren> Enslaver: hmm... somewhere I have a prototype chroot installer even simpler than mock. I called it chrootkit.
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| 23:46 | <warren> I was trying to be intentionally alarming.
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| 23:47 | <Enslaver> lol i see that
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| 23:47 | my chrootkit detectors might not let that pass ;)
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| 23:48 | <warren> It was based on anaconda though
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| 23:48 | so mock is better
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