IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 30 December 2013 (all times are UTC)
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| 02:21 | <gdi2k> I have fat clients set up on 12.04, but performance is really not great when starting new applications - for example, opening libreoffice writer takes about 27 seconds. is there any way I can improve that?
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| 02:21 | (performance on 13.10 was much better, but it was very buggy)
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| 02:25 | network is 1gb from server to switch, 100mb from switch to client. I am seeing data being pulled from the server at a rate of 10 mb / sec, which isn't that far off wire speed
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| 04:00 | <alkisg> Good morning
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| 04:14 | * vagrantc waves | |
| 04:14 | <vagrantc> alkisg: should i hold off, or upload ltsp as is?
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| 04:14 | i remembered, and then forgot, one more feature...
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| 04:14 | <alkisg> vagrantc: meh I just sent a launchpad build, I should have waited for you to tag it :D
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| 04:15 | There was udhcp, but for a later release
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| 04:15 | !alkisg-todo
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| 04:15 | <ltsp> alkisg-todo: (#1) ltsp-update-image.symlinks, or (#2) upload fixed nbd-server package in the PPA, or (#3) implement LDM_[PRE|IN|POST]SESSION_CMD, or (#4) put IPAPPEND support in ltsp-update-kernels, or (#5) prefer kernels from img rather than dir, or (#6) LDM password hash, or (#7) check remoteapps in fat clients, or (#8) launch ltspfsd/cdpinger upon first media insertion, or (#9) Check ltsp bugs in debian.org, or (#10) (1 more message)
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| 04:16 | <vagrantc> !vagrant-todo
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| 04:16 | <ltsp> vagrant-todo: (#1) pxemenus, or (#2) tweak debian/rules to install appropriate update-kernels.conf, or (#3) update-kernels fix memtest support or drop it
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| 04:16 | <vagrantc> !forget vagrant-todo 3
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| 04:16 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 04:16 | <vagrantc> !forget vagrant-todo 2
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| 04:16 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 04:17 | <vagrantc> !vagrantc-todo
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| 04:17 | <ltsp> vagrantc-todo: Merge LinuxMint changes... (Subliminal)
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| 04:17 | <vagrantc> !forget vagrantc-todo
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| 04:17 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 04:17 | <vagrantc> !vagrantc-todo
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| 04:17 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'vagrantc-todo', but I do know about these similar topics: 'vagrant-todo'
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| 04:17 | <vagrantc> !vagrant-todo
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| 04:17 | <ltsp> vagrant-todo: pxemenus
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| 04:17 | <vagrantc> that's a work in progress, but made some decent progress
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| 04:19 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I could enable translation commits for a few hours in case there were translation commits... although I think we did that recently so there won't be many, not worth it
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| 04:20 | <vagrantc> yeah, not worth it
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| 04:22 | <alkisg> !alkisg-todo
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| 04:22 | <ltsp> alkisg-todo: (#1) upload fixed nbd-server package in the PPA, or (#2) implement LDM_[PRE|IN|POST]SESSION_CMD, or (#3) LDM password hash, or (#4) Check ltsp bugs in debian.org, or (#5) nbd-disconnect isn't called at all because the cmdline changed, no nbdroot=
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| 04:22 | * alkisg checks bugs at debian.org... | |
| 04:25 | <alkisg> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=718727 is probably the same as my request to use binary mode in tftp in launchpad, which sbalneav turned down...
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| 04:25 | <vagrantc> alkisg: you got my main regarding aoe in initramfs-tools?
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| 04:25 | <alkisg> mail, yup
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| 04:25 | Thanks, I'll subscribe to that bug
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| 04:26 | <vagrantc> the proposed patch was a lot more complicated than what you have
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| 04:27 | <alkisg> Yeah there's no need for a "BOOT=aoe" construct, when plain root=path is enough...
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| 04:27 | But again, what I'd like is a single root=mount-request1,mount-request2 parameter, nothing else
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| 04:27 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i'm tempted to put configure_networking into aoe_ltsp
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| 04:28 | <alkisg> why?
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| 04:28 | <vagrantc> alkisg: nothing else brings up networking otherwise
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| 04:28 | <alkisg> We should fix that ^
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| 04:28 | <vagrantc> maybe so
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| 04:29 | <alkisg> in aoe, networking should be initialized in the real system
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| 04:29 | Omitting the "eth0 manual" entry should be enough to do so
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| 04:29 | dhclient and everything, no need for static IPs
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| 04:29 | <vagrantc> no, need to add an "iface eth0 inet dhcp" ... unless there's network-manager or wicd or something like that
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| 04:30 | <alkisg> Hmmm another use case there,
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| 04:31 | for local boot, networking again won't be available from the initramfs, but it needs to be in init-ltsp.d in order to fetch lts.conf
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| 04:32 | So we can't wait until network manager etc bring up the interface... we at least need ipappend 3
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| 04:32 | * vagrantc nods | |
| 04:32 | <vagrantc> setting "ipappend 3" then requires nbdroot= for NBD
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| 04:32 | <alkisg> It doesn't require it for me here...
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| 04:33 | <vagrantc> so it broke my beautiful menu that supports all three with a single setup
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| 04:33 | alkisg: how does it figure out the root-path if you're using ipappend 3 ?
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| 04:33 | <alkisg> From dhcp
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| 04:33 | Ah
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| 04:34 | It's just the default, /opt/ltsp/<arch>
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| 04:34 | <vagrantc> when you're using ipappend, it doesn't pass root-path on the commandline
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| 04:34 | not in my setup...
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| 04:34 | <alkisg> Hmm checks if he puts that in udhcp...
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| 04:34 | *me
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| 04:34 | <vagrantc> still don't use udhcp
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| 04:34 | myself
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| 04:35 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I think I should split udhcp to 2 scripts
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| 04:35 | The first part would be "try to sanitize networking, apply things from ipappend etc"
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| 04:35 | I use that ^ part
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| 04:36 | The second part would be "use udhcp"
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| 04:36 | I don't care at all about that part
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| 04:36 | * vagrantc nods | |
| 04:36 | <vagrantc> you use ipappend exclusively?
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| 04:36 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 04:37 | <vagrantc> with AoE we're back to using specific numbers for each image
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| 04:37 | i.e. no correlary to named exports
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| 04:37 | still pretty impressed with it, though... haven't tried to put it through it's paces
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| 04:38 | did have a mysterious lockup at some point, though
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| 04:38 | * alkisg wants to test flow control issues with aoe... | |
| 04:38 | <vagrantc> and of course, now i'm curious about iSCSI, although it looks a lot more complicated to set up... still probably worth exploring, though
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| 04:39 | * alkisg would prefer exploring dynamic local caching of the image :) | |
| 04:40 | <alkisg> I saw 2 mainline methods to do that...
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| 04:41 | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM4ODA
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| 04:44 | It would allow fat client labs with 100 mbps networking to be able to support many many clients...
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| 04:46 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i still don't get how you get nbd working with ipappend without specifying nbdroot or something similar
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| 04:46 | <alkisg> vagrantc: check udhcp,
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| 04:46 | # Ensure a default rootpath if it doesn't exist
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| 04:46 | if [ -z "$rootpath" ]; then
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| 04:46 | if [ -f /conf/arch.conf ]; then
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| 04:46 | rootpath=$(. /conf/arch.conf; echo "${DPKG_ARCH:+/opt/ltsp/$DPKG_ARCH}")
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| 04:46 | fi
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| 04:46 | rootpath=${rootpath:-/opt/ltsp/i386}
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| 04:46 | fi
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| 04:46 | <vagrantc> aha
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| 04:46 | <vagrantc> that doesn't seem to happen for me
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| 04:47 | where's arch.conf comee from?
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| 04:47 | <alkisg> initramfs-tools
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| 04:49 | <alkisg> vagrantc: it should fall back to /opt/ltsp/i386 if it doesn't exist, so I think that your problem may be that udhcp isn't called _at all_....
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| 04:57 | <vagrantc> alkisg: except it was /opt/ltsp/i386-jessie
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| 04:57 | <alkisg> Ah, ok
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| 04:57 | <vagrantc> so i broked it.
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| 04:58 | <alkisg> vagrantc: if we use linux.c32, we can use ipappend 3 *and* have all the dhcp info, without a dhcp request
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| 04:58 | <vagrantc> i bet if i symlink i386.img to i386-jessie.img it'd work ... i seem to recall that working fine in the past
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| 04:58 | alkisg: i've thought about using some of the fancier syslinux features
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| 04:59 | can even write something up in lua
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| 04:59 | <alkisg> Adding kernel parameters dynamically based on the client hardware... would be very nice
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| 06:55 | <work_alkisg> vagrantc: are you going to make an ltsp release today?
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| 06:55 | work_alkisg is now known as alkisg | |
| 07:02 | <vagrantc> alkisg: probably wait till tomorrow
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| 07:03 | alkisg: started looking at http://bugs.debian.org/src:ltsp
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| 07:04 | <alkisg> Ah, nice
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| 07:04 | vagrantc: I don't see ltspfs 1.3 in your launchpad packaging mirror...
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| 07:04 | <vagrantc> namely 701647, 613988, 704830 and 706812 (thinking of switching to http.debian.net)
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| 07:04 | alkisg: i'll make sure it's pushed
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| 07:05 | <alkisg> vagrantc: re: #701647, are they using bind-mounts?!
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| 07:07 | <vagrantc> alkisg: who knows.
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| 07:07 | <alkisg> Hmm anyway I can look at bugs from home too, I should take advantage of the real clients I have here at work to do some aoe testing...
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| 07:07 | <vagrantc> cool.
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| 07:08 | i've got a few errands to do tomorrow, but hope to get an upload end by the end of the day
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| 07:08 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I want to start by installing a debian kernel alongside my trusty kernel, for clients without cmov (that I have here),
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| 07:08 | would you suggest some specific kernel? the -486 one?
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| 07:08 | ...one that would target older clients mostly...
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| 07:08 | <vagrantc> for maximum backwards-compatibility
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| 07:08 | <alkisg> Cool, thanks
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| 07:08 | <vagrantc> yeah, -486
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| 07:09 | hopefully your userspace cooperates
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| 07:15 | alkisg: did you pull ltspfs into ubuntu?
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| 07:15 | prem_ has joined IRC (prem_!~prem@218.248.24.19) | |
| 07:15 | <prem_> hi all
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| 07:15 | * vagrantc waves | |
| 07:16 | <prem_> is it possible to setup LTSP client to boot from wireless?
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| 07:16 | <alkisg> vagrantc: no, either stgraber did that or it was done automatically
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| 07:16 | <prem_> this is required for a library setup here on high priority
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| 07:16 | <alkisg> Booting from wireless sucks, copy the ltsp image at some local media
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| 07:17 | <prem_> i want to boot the ltsp clients over wireless and boot the client machine
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| 07:17 | <vagrantc> alkisg: http://bugs.debian.org/613988, i was thinking of just adding ${SERVER_NAME:-"server"} to init-ltsp.d/09-hostname for the /etc/hosts editing
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| 07:17 | * alkisg reads... | |
| 07:17 | <vagrantc> but it's not clear that's all they need
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| 07:18 | !wireless
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| 07:18 | <ltsp> wireless: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/WirelessLtsp
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| 07:18 | <vagrantc> oh wow, that's an old URL
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| 07:18 | prem_: the short of it is, it's not really a good idea, but for 1 client it might work
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| 07:18 | prem_: as long as nobody else is using the wireless much
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| 07:18 | <prem_> vagrantc, am plannign to have atleast 10 clients simultaenoously
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| 07:19 | am planign to use that router only for pxe booting
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| 07:19 | not any other normal dhcp services will be there
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| 07:19 | <vagrantc> prem_: then you either need to run a local OS, or string some wires.
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| 07:19 | prem_: or try wireless for yourself and see how poorly it performs
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| 07:20 | <alkisg> vagrantc: SERVER_NAME would be a workaround, but the real solution would be to do a reverse dns query?
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| 07:20 | <vagrantc> alkisg: it's not clear to me... guess i should follow-up.
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| 07:21 | <alkisg> Because we could just do a reverse query, and if it works, use it, otherwise use "server"...
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| 07:21 | * vagrantc wonders if DNS is setup at that point | |
| 07:22 | <alkisg> host $SERVER $SERVER should work even if DNS is unset...
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| 07:23 | host $DNS_SERVER $SERVER or something
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| 07:25 | <vagrantc> right
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| 07:28 | <prem_> vagrantc, is there any way to enhance the wireless setup in ltsp
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| 07:29 | <alkisg> prem_: do/can the clients have local storage? internal disks, usb sticks etc?
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| 07:29 | <prem_> alkisg, no we are planning to ban the
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| 07:29 | them*
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| 07:29 | if thats very much necessary., we ll try to include them vagrantc
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| 07:30 | alkisg,
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| 07:30 | <alkisg> A thin client needs 50 MB to boot. 10 clients need 500 MB. On a wifi that would need 5+ minutes
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| 07:30 | So if you can have some local storage in the clients, you copy transfer /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img there and tell them to boot from that first, and THEN connect to the LTSP server for authentication + shared /home
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| 07:32 | <prem_> alkisg, how this can be achieved ?
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| 07:32 | booting from local storage and authenticating from ltsp server ?
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| 07:33 | <alkisg> !local-boot
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| 07:33 | <ltsp> local-boot: If you want LTSP fat clients on a low-speed network, you can put i386.img on e.g. C:\Boot\LTSP\i386.img and use this command line in pxelinux.cfg: APPEND ro initrd=ltsp/i386/initrd.img init=/sbin/init-ltsp root=/dev/sda1 rootflags=ro loop=/Boot/LTSP/i386.img; IPAPPEND 3
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| 07:34 | <prem_> alkisg, how about booting from a usb stick
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| 07:34 | <alkisg> ...something like that... I don't think anyone has written good documentation for it, you'd need to ask here again when you've done some steps
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| 07:34 | It's the same, usb or internal disk
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| 07:35 | * alkisg wonders if squashfs supports writing a boot sector in the image in order to make it directly dd'able to USB sticks | |
| 07:35 | <prem_> alkisg, say i copied i386.img to usb and booted from that, then how come the image knows the ltsp server and get authenticated ?
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| 07:36 | <alkisg> It does a dhcp request
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| 07:36 | Or you can also pass it to the command line
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| 07:36 | Those are details, first think if it suits your purposes and then start doing, and ask when you're blocked somewhere
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| 07:37 | <prem_> hmm okey., alkisg i will try these options., but booting directly from wifi will not work out ?
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| 07:38 | <alkisg> It's very slow
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| 07:38 | So when it works you will decide that you don't want it
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| 07:39 | <prem_> actually i have connected my router to eth1 and configured the ltsp dhcp server to run on that eth1
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| 07:39 | alkisg, now for testing , how can i make the dhcp service to run on wlan0
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| 07:39 | this is bit comfusing to me
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| 07:39 | <alkisg> It will take you about 1 week to understand how to boot a client over wireless
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| 07:40 | When you do it, you won't like it, and switch to something else
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| 07:40 | <prem_> alkisg, am already lookign it for more than 10 days
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| 07:40 | <alkisg> I didn't see you ask here :)
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| 07:40 | But anyways, as I said, the result won't be acceptable for 10 clients
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| 07:41 | To have an acceptable result, you need (1) ltsp fat clients, with (2) the squashfs ltsp image locally on some media, usb, internal disk, whatever
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| 07:44 | vagrantc: Trusty has initramfs-tools 0.103ubuntu3 and all the recent kernels I find need >= 0.110~... should I start looking in squeeze instead of jessie/wheezy?
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| 07:46 | * alkisg tries http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/linux-image-3.2.0-4-486 ... | |
| 07:54 | <vagrantc> alkisg: ouch.
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| 07:54 | alkisg: that would be a bad idea
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| 07:54 | alkisg: initramfs-tools should be fairly safe to backport...
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| 07:54 | <alkisg> I'm halfway into ltsp-update-image, let's see how that goes...
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| 07:55 | I think Ubuntu keeps a silly diff for initramfs-tools that's why they neglect syncing it...
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| 07:58 | <vagrantc> alkisg: yeah, the version string isn't very meaningful... many of the features in newer debian initramfs-tools were first implemented in "old" ubuntu versions.
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| 07:58 | <alkisg> I don't know if other debian maintainers would allow it, but the X-Ubuntu-Depends/recommends etc tricks are working fine for ltsp :)
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| 07:58 | <vagrantc> tried to propose it for qemu, but they didn't like it... did something i think looks messier
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| 07:59 | <alkisg> Ubuntu has thousands of 0ubuntuX packages, most of them for no real good reasons
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| 07:59 | Meh I forgot to run update-kernels again
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| 08:01 | <alkisg> Yey, I got all the correct symlinks :)
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| 08:04 | Hehe, got a few glitches, but it made it up to the LDM login screen
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| 08:12 | <alkisg> Ah the main glitch was just the "fake dual head" intel issue, it just needs an xrandr calll...
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| 08:14 | <vagrantc> wow.
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| 08:15 | that's good to know.
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| 08:15 | <alkisg> Note that that laptop isn't only missing the -pae flag, it's also missing the cmov instruction :)
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| 08:16 | <vagrantc> right
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| 08:22 | <alkisg> OK first try, hdparm /dev/nbd0 on 3 NBD clients (then AOE test will follow)
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| 08:23 | 7.02, 15.93 (gigabit), 6.64
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| 08:26 | Hmm no the aoe script failed, the link was down at the time of modprobe aoe
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| 08:28 | echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches; hdparm -t /dev/etherd/e0.0
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| 08:28 | 11.27 MB/sec, 15.12 MB/sec, 11.26 MB/sec
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| 08:29 | Yeah that does sound better... let me also test with a really stupid atheros gigabit nic I have...
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| 08:35 | <alkisg> Ouch no the atheros NIC suffers from the flow control issue even with aoe
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| 08:35 | 2.49 MB/sec, 3.15 MB/sec, 3.29 MB/sec
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| 08:46 | <alkisg> Testing with intel...
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| 08:52 | <alkisg> Meh, realtek performs a _lot_ better than intel since 12.04... :-/
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| 08:52 | Intel: 2.59 MB/sec, 17.97 MB/sec, 1.03 MB/sec
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| 18:29 | <alkisg_jessie> Heh, vmlinuz and initrd in debian have the exact half size of the ubuntu ones...
| |
| 18:31 | * ogra_ whispers "plymouth fonts" | |
| 18:35 | <vagrantc> which really matters for network booting ppc64
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| 18:36 | <ogra_> totally
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| 18:36 | <alkisg_jessie> I think the size is due to many many modules being either compiled in vmlinuz or included in initrd... and I think we don't care much about all of them, they're not used until the network root is mounted...
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| 18:37 | <ogra_> i dont think debian and ubuntu differ much in what modules they include
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| 18:37 | <alkisg_jessie> I even get a 5 second lag on ubuntu's vmlinuz _before_ it loads the initrd... at least since 12.04
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| 18:38 | ...which isn't there on debian or mainline kernels
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| 18:38 | Somebody forgot a "debug sleep 5" there :P
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| 18:41 | <ogra_> you will find that most bloat on the ubuntu side is related to plymouth, raid or encryption
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| 18:41 | (and libdrm-(radeon|nouveau|foo)
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| 18:41 | <alkisg_jessie> The main difference is: 8,2M firmware
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| 18:41 | <ogra_> (oh, and lvm)
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| 18:42 | <alkisg_jessie> I.e. the initrd size is due to the driver's firmware not included in debian by default as it's non-free
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| 18:42 | In debian that's only: 44K firmware
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| 18:44 | <ogra_> oh, yeah
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| 19:55 | <alkisg> http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/PXELINUX#Fetching_images_via_HTTP.2FFTP
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| 19:57 | <alkisg> ...with that we could easily tell ltspd to dynamically construct/send pxelinux.cfg/* files to the clients, by looking at lts.conf KERNEL_PARAMETERS directives :D
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| 19:59 | * vagrantc nod | |
| 19:59 | <vagrantc> s
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| 20:02 | <vmlintu> alkisg: puavo-tftpd can act as a http-tftpd bridge: https://github.com/opinsys/puavo-tftp
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| 20:51 | <alkisg> vmlintu: yeah that's a good idea too, since tftp is a necessary service for PXE booting, it could also act as an ltspd server. Before starting to implement ltspd, we should review all possible directions - of course taking stability, performance and easy of maintainance into account too.
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| 20:57 | <vmlintu> alkisg: we've been now using that approach for a year
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| 20:58 | <alkisg> vmlintu: how much slower than http is it?
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| 20:58 | <vmlintu> our pxelinux.cfg configurations are coming from a http server
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| 20:59 | alkisg: do you mean tftp compared to http?
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| 20:59 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 21:00 | <vmlintu> I really haven't done much benchmarks as we really cannot use http in pxe as quite a few nics seem to have broken firmware..
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| 21:00 | <alkisg> So lpxelinux.0 doesn't work in some nics?
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| 21:06 | <vmlintu> is the code different from gpxe?
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| 21:07 | I just remember that with gpxe/ipxe pretty much all realtek nics that we had failed to work: http://etherboot.org/wiki/troubleshooting
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| 21:08 | I do not remember hearing about lpxelinux.0 before
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| 21:10 | <alkisg> I think it would use the PXE stack of the NIC instead of the iPXE stack
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| 21:12 | <vmlintu> Some NICs have built-in http support?
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| 21:14 | I have to admit that I didn't bother digging too deep into this as tftp was fast enough and puavo-tftpd made it possible to dynamically create the tftp responses
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| 21:17 | We use it now so that when puavo-tftpd get a pxelinux.cfg request, it makes an http request to a http server that generates the response that puavo-tftpd then sends back over tftp: https://github.com/opinsys/puavo-users/blob/master/rest/resources/hosts.rb
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| 21:19 | Here's another tftpd server writter in Go that does the same thing: https://github.com/epeli/hooktftp
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| 21:19 | <alkisg> No, the PXE stack allows a nic to do IP networking. pxelinux.0 does tftp over the stack, and lpxelinux.0 does http over that stack, afaik
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| 21:19 | Since you're already using http, maybe you don't even need the tftp part...
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| 21:20 | <vmlintu> I need to try out the lpxelinux.0 to see if it works better than gpxe/ipxe
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| 21:21 | It would make life easier
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| 21:24 | alkisg: is lpxelinux.0 packaged in debian/ubuntu?
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| 21:24 | <alkisg> vmlintu: no idea, only today I saw the ipxelinux.0 name for the first time
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| 21:24 | *lpxelinux
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| 21:25 | <vmlintu> ok
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