IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 2 March 2015 (all times are UTC)
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| 08:24 | <gym-kampou-chiou> καλημέρα και καλή εβδομάδα!
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| 08:24 | <work_alkisg> !greek
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| 08:24 | <ltsp`> greek: Στο παρόν κανάλι μιλάνε μόνο Αγγλικά, για υποστήριξη στα Ελληνικά από την υπηρεσία Τεχνικής Στήριξης ΣΕΠΕΗΥ διαβάστε το http://ts.sch.gr/wiki/IRC και στη συνέχεια πληκτρολογήστε /j #ts.sch.gr
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| 09:08 | <zChris> !swede
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| 09:08 | <ltsp`> I do not know about 'swede', but I do know about these similar topics: 'suse', 'since'
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| 09:08 | <zChris> :(
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| 09:12 | <alkisg> !since
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| 09:12 | <ltsp`> <gym-kampou-chiou> καλημέρα και καλή εβδομάδα!, <work_alkisg> !greek, <zChris> !swede, <zChris> :(, and <alkisg> !since
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| 09:13 | <alkisg> !forget since
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| 09:13 | <ltsp`> The operation succeeded.
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| 09:13 | <alkisg> !since
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| 09:13 | <ltsp`> <gym-kampou-chiou> καλημέρα και καλή εβδομάδα!, <work_alkisg> !greek, <zChris> !swede, <zChris> :(, <alkisg> !since, <alkisg> !forget since, and <alkisg> !since
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| 11:26 | <schooluser> hey all
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| 11:26 | problem with epoptes
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| 11:27 | whats the path to the conf file?
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| 11:57 | <fiesh> can someone tell me what is supposed to be listening on port 9571? I get connection refuseds but cannot figure out why
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| 11:59 | ah ok, ldminfod, thanks ;)
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| 12:02 | <stevecook> Hi folks. Steve cook here. I have recently sucessfully installed pnp ltsp and have an issue i am worjking on resolving whoch is the lack of capacity of clients to recognise passwords coming out of lock screen....cont...
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| 12:03 | i ahve installed the ldm_2.2.15-2_i386.deb and need to do some more stuff but need some guidance. If you have the time alkisg, then I would be grateful for some assistance. I relalise, however, you have given over a fiar bit of time to be already and ubnderstand oif you are busy
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| 12:17 | If anyone else is able to help, all advice gratefully received. just nipping out of room for 5 mins to do job......
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| 12:19 | <cyberorg> stevecook, LDM_PASSWORD_HASH=true in lts.conf
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| 12:19 | <alkisg> stevecook: you might also need a file from a more recent ltsp version (not just ldm), but I don't have time to check now
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| 12:20 | * work_alkisg waves... | |
| 12:20 | <fiesh> is there a standard way to set the X background to solid black, apart from installing xsetroot and having it in the user's .xsession?
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| 12:21 | <stevecook> No worries, folks, I will update the lts.conf and see what happen and get back to you.
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| 12:26 | Inserted "LDM_PASSWORD_HASH=true" into the bottom of lts.conf file. But no go I am afraid. On the upside alkisg, blender even works in a vm client now!...:)
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| 12:48 | <Hyperbyte> stevecook, didn't alkisg say that only works with LDM 5.5.2+ ?
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| 12:57 | <stevecook> I think you are referring to ltsp version there, though I cant be sure
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| 12:59 | though, from what alkisg as just inbdicated, it looks like I at leasdt need a file form a more recent version of ltsp as well
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| 13:38 | <madze_> Hi, it is possible to connect another device to usb in thinclient? I mean about Microchip programmer.
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| 13:38 | <Hyperbyte> madze_, LTSP only forwards filesystems by default, not actual devices.
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| 13:39 | Doesn't mean it's not possible though, there are things like netusb. Although in your case, easiest might be to run the programming software as a local app.
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| 13:39 | Then it has direct USB access instead of via network.
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| 13:41 | <madze_> Nice solution, i will try - mayby it's work, like i want :)
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| 14:41 | <carolyn_> i was needing help getting my diskless box setup can u help
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| 14:45 | <Hyperbyte> Patience is a virtue.
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| 14:48 | <muppis> Anyone familiar with ltsp-build-client -script? I'm building chroot for arm device (Odroid C1) and obiviusly it fails whe trying to chroot in due Exec error. If I drop that already generated chroot to SD cart and boot the actual machine with it, what I do next?
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| 14:56 | work_alkisg is now known as alkisg | |
| 14:56 | <alkisg> muppis: you've managed to boot the client with a local image?
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| 14:59 | <muppis> alkisg, Odroid uses U-boot which can handle PXE.
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| 15:00 | Managed to make fat client using a local image. :D
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| 15:01 | We want PXE booting for easier management.
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| 15:18 | <alkisg> muppis: well if you did get a local image, then you just need to install ltsp-client in it, and copy it to the ltsp server chroot
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| 15:19 | * ogra_ would instead do the whole lstsp-build-client run inside a qemu-user-static chroot | |
| 15:20 | <alkisg> ogra_, are you planning to attend debconf15 at heidelberg?
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| 15:21 | <ogra_> probably
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| 15:21 | cant promise it yet since i dont know what kind of work travel might get in my way
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| 15:21 | <alkisg> cool, I told vagrantc to try to arrange an ltsp meeting there
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| 15:21 | <ogra_> i would love to make ltsp work on snappy :)
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| 15:21 | <alkisg> Maybe we could do an LTSP BTM then :P
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| 15:21 | <ogra_> yeah
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| 15:21 | <alkisg> (There are Mountains there, right? :))
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| 15:22 | <ogra_> rather hills i think :)
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| 15:22 | <alkisg> oh well, BTH then
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| 15:22 | <ogra_> hehe
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| 15:22 | its a big wine area though ...
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| 15:22 | BTW
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| 15:22 | ;)
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| 15:23 | <alkisg> :)
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| 15:27 | <vmlintu> ogra_: how would snappy ltsp differ from normal ltsp?
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| 15:28 | just curious as I haven't tried snappy yet
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| 15:28 | <ogra_> the install would be lots easier
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| 15:28 | <Hyperbyte> It'll be a lot snappier I guess?
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| 15:28 | <ogra_> you would have one giant .snap package with everything pre-built inside
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| 15:29 | <fiesh> any hints on what might cause:
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| 15:29 | libGL error: failed to open drm device: No such file or directory
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| 15:29 | libGL error: failed to load driver: i965
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| 15:29 | ? permissions are find, users are in group video
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| 15:29 | <ogra_> and once desktop, phone and server have moved to snappy you ill be able to even run ltsp on your phone ;)
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| 15:29 | <fiesh> and the drivers are installed on the client
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| 15:29 | <alkisg> fiesh: drivers for intel? they're included...
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| 15:29 | <vmlintu> ogra_: the .snap being something that would be distributed pre-built?
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| 15:29 | <ogra_> yes
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| 15:30 | in the snap store
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| 15:30 | <vmlintu> ogra_: the snap store would build them?
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| 15:30 | <alkisg> ogra_: why isn't the package management system enough? e.g. couldn't you just have an "ubuntu-deps" package for proprietary apps to depend on?
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| 15:30 | <ogra_> no, you upload binaries to the store
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| 15:31 | alkisg, snappy uses snap packages, apt and dpkg are essentially dead there
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| 15:31 | <alkisg> I understand, but I can't understand the benefits
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| 15:31 | I can only see drawbacks there...
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| 15:31 | <ogra_> a snap package is kind of a meta wrapper that allows you to get only diff upgrades and has builtin rollback functionality
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| 15:31 | <alkisg> Snapshots can be done in the file system level with btrfs
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| 15:31 | So rollbacks would be lots easier that way
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| 15:32 | diff upgrades are offered e.g. in pradus for a long time now
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| 15:32 | <ogra_> it is wrapped in an onion like model that control all the security aspects the package can use
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| 15:33 | <alkisg> ogra_: how is the base system built, before it is packaged into a .snap package?
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| 15:33 | Normally via debootstrap?
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| 15:33 | <ogra_> snaps are the perfect package format for upstreams ... i expect that chrome, firefox and libreoffice will at some point default to them for ubuntu
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| 15:33 | since you dont have to care for dependencies etc ... makes PPAs moot
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| 15:34 | which base system ?
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| 15:34 | <alkisg> core-utils etc
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| 15:34 | The basic chroot where you'll begin to install the apps in
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| 15:34 | <ogra_> it is the ubuntu-core seed ... the most minimal ubuntu rootfs you can build
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| 15:34 | <alkisg> So apt and dpkg will still be needed there, right?
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| 15:34 | <ogra_> there is no chroot
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| 15:35 | no
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| 15:35 | <alkisg> But don't seeds use dpkg?
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| 15:35 | <ogra_> you can completely build your stuff from github if you like
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| 15:35 | oh, well, seeds are used to build the image ...
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| 15:35 | but your snap doesnt do much with the image, it lives in its own restricted space
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| 15:36 | <alkisg> So, the image does use apt and dpkg?
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| 15:36 | <ogra_> no
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| 15:36 | they get removed at build time
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| 15:36 | <alkisg> But to build it, you use apt and dpkg?
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| 15:36 | <ogra_> since the OS is completely readonly they wouldnt help you much
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| 15:36 | right ... they get removed after they fulfilled their duty during build
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| 15:37 | <alkisg> So it's a new layer only for user apps, not for system apps...
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| 15:37 | Is there any method to automatically convert debian/ directories into snap-package/ directories?
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| 15:38 | tinycorelinux uses squashfs images to ship applications, I'm guessing .snap files is something similar?
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| 15:38 | <ogra_> no, that would be pointless, you cant replace deb with snap ...
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| 15:38 | <alkisg> So we'd need to re-package 20000 packages?
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| 15:38 | <ogra_> there is work going on to provide you frameworks to pull in sets of debs into your snap at build time though
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| 15:38 | <alkisg> Ouch, so a library would be there multiple times...
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| 15:39 | Meh stupid proprietary apps with your dependencies...
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| 15:39 | Wastes RAM, disk space etc
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| 15:39 | <ogra_> it could be there multiple times indeed
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| 15:39 | but i assume thats a pretty rare case
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| 15:39 | often used libs will show up in framework snaps that packages can make use of
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| 15:40 | <alkisg> Couldn't those just be debian packages named "ubuntu-framework-xxx"?
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| 15:40 | <ogra_> no
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| 15:40 | if we could have used dpkg in this env we would have used it ;)
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| 15:41 | * alkisg still doesn't understand why though.... but hopes it's for the best | |
| 15:41 | <ogra_> snaps are installed per-user ...
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| 15:41 | dpkg would never support that
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| 15:41 | or installable per user
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| 15:41 | also making dpkg work on a fully readonly system is hard and would have required heavy patching
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| 15:42 | <alkisg> Do .snap packages get uncompressed on installation, or do they get overlayed, like tinycorelinux does with .squashfs files overlayed over the file system?
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| 15:42 | <ogra_> currently only unompresse3d, the mechanism to overlay them is still in discussion (somethin like that will come though)
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| 15:43 | <alkisg> Readonly /system partitions because of the phone restrictions, ah, yeah that make sense
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| 15:43 | To allow companies to ship closed systems
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| 15:43 | <ogra_> note because of the phone :)
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| 15:43 | because of the upgrade mechanism
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| 15:43 | <alkisg> The upgrade could work fine with snapshots etc... I think fedora is already doing that
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| 15:43 | <ogra_> it creates a diff against the last rootfses ...
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| 15:44 | so your upgrade takes seconds vs hours
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| 15:44 | but to achieve that the server and client rootfs need to be identical
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| 15:44 | <alkisg> You don't actually need a whole root system to be identical, you'd only need the previous ubuntu-framework-v1.0 package to be identical, that wouldn't be an issue...
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| 15:45 | Even if that part contained 500mb of files
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| 15:45 | <ogra_> the framework isnt in any way connected to the underlying system ...
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| 15:46 | i'm talking about the system itself
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| 15:46 | * alkisg hopes that debian, fedora, snap etc packages can all be described from a single source like appdata in the future, otherwise developers will really have problems maintaining all those | |
| 15:46 | <alkisg> http://people.freedesktop.org/~hughsient/appdata/
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| 15:47 | <ogra_> well, snap packages simply only need an upstream git tree
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| 15:47 | <alkisg> They don't need description, installable files, dependencies, screenshots etc?
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| 15:47 | <ogra_> they enable you to do plain upstream builds and distribute the binaries
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| 15:47 | <alkisg> Don't they need something like a debian/control file?
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| 15:47 | <ogra_> thats all stuff the soptre deals with, not the snap
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| 15:47 | store
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| 15:48 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ogra/+junk/chatroom/revision/1/meta/package.yaml#meta/package.yaml
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| 15:48 | <ogra_> thats all they need
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| 15:48 | and a readme.md in the meta dir
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| 15:48 | <alkisg> Yup, yet another control file...
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| 15:49 | <ogra_> well, a pretyt trivial one
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| 15:50 | <alkisg> Are there any GUIs planned for building snap packages?
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| 15:50 | <ogra_> i dont think so
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| 15:50 | <alkisg> For developers that have never heard of linux before...
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| 15:50 | <ogra_> but you never know what the community comes up with
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| 15:51 | given that due to the IoT focus currently you have mostly embedded devs we dont really need a ui currently
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| 15:51 | <alkisg> ogra_, will .snap packages be supported on the desktop too?
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| 15:51 | <ogra_> the guys doing embedded linux stuff usually know their way around vi
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| 15:51 | alkisg, the desktop images will switch to snappy at some point
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| 15:51 | <alkisg> I meant e.g. phone app developers that are used to the android sdk etc
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| 15:51 | <ogra_> convergence ;)
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| 15:52 | <alkisg> So I won't be able to run `apt-get install epoptes` if I don't make a snap package for it?!!
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| 15:52 | <ogra_> yeah, i would expect the ubuntu SDK to support a gui way of building snaps
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| 15:52 | right
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| 15:52 | <alkisg> Ouch.... :-/
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| 15:52 | /j #debian
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| 15:52 | :P
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| 15:53 | Thanks for the info, I really wish this is for the best
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| 15:53 | * ogra_ too ... since it is so much easier than debs | |
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| 15:54 | <ogra_> and automatic rollbacks on failed upgrade and stuff is simply sexy
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| 15:55 | <ogra_> being able to promise a constant uptime and all ...
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| 15:55 | <alkisg> I don't think those are significant, with btrfs we'll have snapshots on boot, snapshots before installing programs, snapshots after... we'll have _too_ much uptime :P
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| 15:56 | I think stability for the api is the most significant thing here
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| 15:56 | So that applications can run on a wide range of library versions, like they do on android, windows etc
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| 15:56 | <SeRi> hello all, I just did a fresh intsall of ltsp-server on a centos 6.6 x86_64 server... All goes well till a client trys to login to a gnome desktop. It "trys" to log in but it kicks the user right back out... all you see is the spinning watch. Any ideas or help?
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| 15:57 | <vmlintu> looks like I started quite a snappy discussion..
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| 15:57 | <alkisg> SeRi: I don't think anyone maintains ltsp on centos... also, thin clients have a hard time running 3d sessions like gnome3
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| 15:57 | <ogra_> vmlintu, hah
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| 15:58 | alkisg, there is #snappy btw ... in case you want to go on, i'm in there and we dont need to spam #ltsp
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| 15:58 | <SeRi> alkisg: crap. wow didnt know that. I think 6.6 still on gnome2 at any rate I am SOL? :)
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| 15:58 | <alkisg> ogra_ thanks again for the info, I was really wondering about all that
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| 15:59 | SeRi: what is SOL?
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| 15:59 | (other than a note, the name of our solar system, etc...)
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| 15:59 | <SeRi> alkisg: Shit Out of Luck :)
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| 15:59 | <vmlintu> ogra_: if there would be a snappy based ltsp image, could users install .snaps in their home directories or something similar?
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| 15:59 | <alkisg> Hehe, true
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| 15:59 | <ogra_> alkisg, it is realyl hard to explain ... trying it out in kvm surely helps undertsanding it
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| 16:00 | vmlintu, theoretically one could allow that, yeah
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| 16:00 | <alkisg> But how would they run all the services in privileged ports? And how would they depend on e.g. dnsmasq etc?
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| 16:00 | <vmlintu> ogra_: does snappy need an uncompressed filesystem or can it run using read-only images living within another filesystem?
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| 16:01 | <ogra_> alkisg, they dont ... their snap would connect to a security system service that provides them this access
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| 16:02 | vmlintu, it is designed to run cloud containers too ... so you could have a docker container running lxc that runs an ltsp instance
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| 16:02 | or some such
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| 16:02 | <alkisg> So we wouldn't be able to create an ltsp.snap package, we'd need an "ltsp security system service" instead...
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| 16:02 | As ltsp needs a lot of such ports
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| 16:02 | <ogra_> nope
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| 16:02 | <alkisg> ldminfod etc
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| 16:03 | <ogra_> you would have to declare all ports in your package.yaml
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| 16:03 | for unpriv. ports that works fine
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| 16:03 | <vmlintu> ogra_: I'm thinking of having it boot without an uncompressed filesystem, straight from an squashfs image or something similar..
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| 16:03 | <alkisg> Suppose I need dnsmasq, nbd, nfs, ssh
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| 16:03 | <ogra_> right, you would move them to unproiv ports
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| 16:04 | <vmlintu> ogra_: the base system, I mean.. here it shows that you need system-a and system-b partitions: https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/guides/filesystem-layout/
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| 16:04 | <ogra_> vmlintu, right, but you never touch the base system
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| 16:05 | * alkisg couldn't move dns to another port... | |
| 16:05 | <ogra_> well, for that you indeed would need a service that routes your stuff throuh
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| 16:05 | <vmlintu> ogra_: so only some ubuntu masters ever will create base systems and the snappy system cannot be used to create alternative base systems?
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| 16:05 | <alkisg> For all of ltsp-related services, yup...
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| 16:05 | <ogra_> (there are better people in #snappy to explain that model)
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| 16:06 | vmlintu, that is not how it works ... you dont touch the base system at all ... its a 150M rootfs that is readonly ... what you do for your own stuff lives on top of that
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| 16:07 | ubuntu-core is essentially systemd and the basics you need to bnoot
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| 16:07 | *boot
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| 16:07 | nothign more
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| 16:07 | you dont want to change that core of the system
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| 16:07 | <vmlintu> but if it's all user based on top of that, having 1000 people using a single ltsp server makes libreoffice installed 1000 times, so I thought first to install it there..
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| 16:08 | <ogra_> no, it allows user based snaps :)
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| 16:08 | indeed you can have system level ones too ... but these need to talk to security guards to i.e. hardware or privileged ports
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| 16:08 | s/talk to/talk through/
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| 16:09 | * ogra_ needs to go to a meeting, ask the guys in #snappy for more detailed info :) | |
| 16:10 | <vmlintu> hmm.. so there'd be a snappy base nbd image + another for system level installs..
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| 16:10 | <ogra_> you would put all of it into one snap
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| 16:11 | <fiesh> hmm ok, it's no wonder it wont' do DRI, it tries opening /dev/dri/card0 on the server, not the client....
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| 16:12 | is DRI not meant to work correctly using the client's dri device?
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| 16:12 | <alkisg> fiesh: it's possible to do 3d over the network via llvmpipe but it's very slow
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| 16:12 | If you manage to do real 3d/dri over the network, do tell us...
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| 16:12 | I've also seen virtualgl, but when I once tried it, it crashed for me, I don't know if that means anything though
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| 16:13 | <ogra_> i wonder if you could do it with wayland/Xwayland and mir/Xmir :)
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| 16:13 | <alkisg> Currently people are switching to fat clients
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| 16:13 | <fiesh> oh I see, then I was under the wrong impression that things would work smoothly :( thanks
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| 16:13 | <ogra_> you would run a GL capable mir or wayland session locally ... the X variants run inside that
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| 16:13 | <alkisg> I don't think wayland and mir are network-aware...
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| 16:13 | !fatclients | echo fiesh:
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| 16:13 | <ltsp`> fiesh: fatclients: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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| 16:14 | <alkisg> !ltsp-pnp | echo fiesh:
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| 16:14 | <ltsp`> fiesh: ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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| 16:14 | <ogra_> alkisg, no, X is ;)
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| 16:14 | <alkisg> ...things like that
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| 16:14 | <ogra_> alkisg, thats my point
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| 16:14 | <alkisg> ogra_, to emulate 3d in software?
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| 16:14 | <ogra_> if you run Xmir or Xwayland you get the benefits of X
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| 16:14 | insie a wrapper that already runs in a GL context
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| 16:14 | <alkisg> But how would that help gl over network?
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| 16:15 | <ogra_> the GL provider runs locally already and provides access to the local HW to your X clients
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| 16:16 | i'm not sure how the Xmir/Xwayland implementations work, i would expect them to just talk to their wrapper instance
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| 16:16 | and not to /dev/foo/bar/dri
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| 16:28 | <stevecook> hi anybody available to help with clinet lock screen issue on pnp ltsp
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| 16:36 | <stevecook> you about alkisg?
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| 17:08 | <alkisg> stevecook: you need both a newer ldm and ltsp version. You updated ldm; now you also need ltsp. Or, maybe only that file: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-trunk/view/head:/client/localapps/ldm-rc.d/X01-localapps
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