IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 7 October 2014 (all times are UTC)
| 00:29 | <vagrantc> haha! LTSP booted on cubox-i!
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| 00:30 | only local media is u-boot on microsd.
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| 04:21 | <work_alkisg> !learn alkisg-todo as support xnbd-proxy for local caching: https://bitbucket.org/hirofuchi/xnbd/wiki/Home#!scenario-2-simple-proxy-server-distributed-copy-on-write
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| 04:21 | <ltsp`> The operation succeeded.
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| 14:05 | <sbalneav> Morning all
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| 14:15 | mtsoule has joined IRC (mtsoule!4275eb8a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.117.235.138) | |
| 14:18 | <mtsoule> nfs is running on my server, but "Failed to mount root directory", using SLES11 sp3 and ltsp 2.6.20.9 i am pterry new to this so please be kind. any suggestions?
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| 14:22 | <sbalneav> Not familiar with SLES. Does it use NFS root mounting or the compressed image method>
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| 14:22 | ?
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| 14:23 | <mtsoule> i beleive compressed image, but i could be wrong.. how can i tell?
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| 14:24 | <sbalneav> check your /etc/exports file.
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| 14:24 | Any /opt/ltsp entries in there?
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| 14:24 | <mtsoule> it does say "mounting 192.168.1.6:/opt/ltsp/i386 on /newroot/nfsroot failed input/output error
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| 14:25 | yes there are entries there
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| 14:26 | <sbalneav> ok
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| 14:26 | Have you restarted your NFS server?
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| 14:26 | And exported the filesystem with exportfs -a?
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| 14:26 | <mtsoule> yes i have and it apears to be running
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| 14:27 | i dont think i exportfs -a
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| 14:28 | <sbalneav> Try that, as root
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| 14:29 | <mtsoule> i did, and received: neither 'subtree_check' or 'no_subtree_check' specifed. what does that mean?
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| 14:30 | <sbalneav> cat you paste the contents of the /etc/exports lines?
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| 14:31 | The line looks like this for me, on debian systems:
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| 14:31 | /opt/ltsp *(ro,no_root_squash,async,no_subtree_check)
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| 14:32 | <mtsoule> im not on the same network so i will have to type it
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| 14:34 | i have everything but the astrisk and no_subtree_check
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| 14:34 | let me add that and restart nfs
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| 14:39 | ok, my exportfs -a didnt error on me, no output. but still receiving mounting 192.168.1.6:/opt/ltsp/i386 failed
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| 14:41 | <sbalneav> What dhcp server does sles use? ISC?
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| 14:43 | <mtsoule> i have the server configured as a static ip, 192.168.1.6 i dont know what ISC is, sorry i am a noobe
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| 14:43 | <sbalneav> So which dhcp server is installed?
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| 14:43 | Use your distros package management tools to find out.
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| 14:44 | <mtsoule> checking now
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| 14:45 | ISC 4.2.4 P2-0 20.1
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| 14:47 | <sbalneav> ok, so you should have a "dhcpd.conf" file somewhere
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| 14:47 | try "/etc/dhcp3"
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| 14:47 | <mtsoule> yes, i have /etc/dhcpd.conf
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| 14:47 | <sbalneav> ok, what are the contents?
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| 14:47 | !pastebin
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| 14:47 | <ltsp`> pastebin: the LTSP pastebin is at http://ltsp.pastebin.com. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebin, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. Don't forget to paste the URL of the text here.
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| 14:48 | <sbalneav> Paste them to the pastebin
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| 14:48 | <mtsoule> will do, give me a sec
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| 14:51 | <mtsoule> http://pastebin.com/C9QZEYQp
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| 14:57 | <sbalneav> Well, root path looks right.
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| 14:58 | Anything on the server's logs?
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| 14:58 | <mtsoule> lemme check...
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| 15:00 | vagrantc has joined IRC (vagrantc!~vagrant@freegeek/vagrantc) | |
| 15:00 | <sbalneav> Hey vagrantc
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| 15:00 | So, got a jessie server going
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| 15:00 | Got a i386 chroot
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| 15:01 | got ltsp-pam installed
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| 15:01 | I've selected the LTSP option in lightdm
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| 15:01 | but I only get an xterm
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| 15:02 | So somethingg's not right there.
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| 15:02 | * vagrantc waves | |
| 15:02 | <vagrantc> hm.
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| 15:02 | i'll try to reproduce
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| 15:04 | <sbalneav> gotta be something in $CHROOT//usr/share/ltsp-pam/xsession
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| 15:08 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: testing as a thin client?
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| 15:08 | <sbalneav> Yes
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| 15:08 | Full thin at this point.
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| 15:10 | <vagrantc> we need to implement some sort of SCREEN_SCRIPTS=nothankyou option :)
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| 15:11 | <sbalneav> Is that what's buggering us up?
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| 15:13 | <vagrantc> dunno yet, i remember having to do an ugly hack for that
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| 15:13 | could be some systemd-ism
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| 15:14 | haven't yet got my setup with ltsp-pam ... wanted to make sure the basic thin client worked alright before testing this newfandangled stuff
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| 15:16 | apparently, ltsp-pam is from april 2013
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| 15:16 | really has been a while since i worked on it ...
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| 15:17 | well, we did some touch-up in october ... but that's, surprise, a year ago now!
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| 15:17 | <sbalneav> ok, I'll start trying to dig into it.
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| 15:19 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: you've set DEFAULT_DISPLAY_MANAGER ?
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| 15:20 | <sbalneav> Yes. Lightdm does come up
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| 15:20 | oh, BTW, ltsp-pam needs to depent on net-tools
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| 15:20 | since the xsession script executes netstat
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| 15:20 | <vagrantc> ok
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| 15:24 | sbalneav: well, i don't even get that far. lightdm fails to start
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| 15:25 | <sbalneav> hm.
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| 15:25 | Interesting, even though in the lightdm greeter I've selected the LTSP option, the lightdm log says it's running /etc/X11/Xsession default
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| 15:26 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: that's how it worked
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| 15:29 | hrm.
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| 15:29 | i don't think ltsp handles .service files
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| 15:29 | which are used by systemd
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| 15:30 | <sbalneav> shouldn't it be doing a "/etc/X11/Xsession LTSP"?
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| 15:32 | <vagrantc> ah i had set default-display-manager incorrectly.
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| 15:37 | <sbalneav> You seeing the same thing?
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| 15:37 | It gets past the auth, which is good.
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| 15:39 | <vagrantc> i've got mate installed in the chroot, and it's running that locally
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| 15:39 | it's not using the LTSP session
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| 15:39 | but i don't see Xsession anywhere
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| 15:39 | maybe lightdm doesn't use Xsession anymore... :/
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| 15:40 | <sbalneav> The logs seem to indicate it is.
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| 15:40 | <vagrantc> this time it worked
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| 15:41 | <sbalneav> What did you do?
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| 15:41 | <vagrantc> first time, i selected the session, entered username/password ... ended up running a local session
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| 15:41 | second time, i entered username/password, selected session ... ended up running a remote session
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| 15:46 | let's see if i can reproduce that reliably
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| 15:49 | <sbalneav> hm, let me try
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| 15:50 | yup, that works
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| 15:50 | wierd.
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| 15:51 | <vagrantc> the other weird thing was it seemed to be using "xsession" not "Xsession"
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| 15:51 | <sbalneav> let me try again...
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| 15:52 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: so, essentially the weirdness of how this is set up is it runs Xsession (or xsession?) on the local client, and the session handles ssh'ing to the server
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| 15:52 | <sbalneav> right
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| 15:52 | <vagrantc> so all the set up variables (that SSH doesn't helpfully clean out) may be referring to stuff running on the local client ... i.e. dbus, etc.
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| 15:58 | <sbalneav> Hm, I'm not logging out. I didn't set the symlink to the cleanup script... one sec.
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| 16:02 | <vagrantc> when i switch ttys, sometimes the session dies
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| 16:07 | <sbalneav> It's so wierd. When I boot the thin client, the best it can do is 1024x768
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| 16:08 | once I get logged in and do an xrandr -q, 1280x1024 is an option. The first, in fact
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| 16:08 | <sbalneav> xrandr -s 0 works perfectly.
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| 16:08 | Why doesn't it figure this out when it boots?!
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| 16:09 | nope, still hanging on logout
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| 16:11 | * vagrantc feels a gear in the head fall off it's rusty axle | |
| 16:11 | <sbalneav> ah, wierd.
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| 16:12 | <mip5> Is there up to date documentation for this: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ChrootCronjobs, and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/AutomatedTCShutodwn
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| 16:15 | <vagrantc> mip5: nearly all of that functionality should be built-in now
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| 16:15 | you might have to add cron to KEEP_SYSTEM_SERVICES in lts.conf
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| 16:15 | <sbalneav> hmm
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| 16:15 | /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/polkit-mate/polkit-mate-authentication-agent-1 hangs up the logout. The cleanup script doesn't stop it.
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| 16:16 | Ah, and setting "user-session" to "ltsp" in the $CHROOT/etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf file fixed the other.
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| 16:17 | <vagrantc> i've also got pulseaudio and xprop -root spy running
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| 16:18 | <mip5> which lts.conf should I be using - in /opt/ltsp/i386/etc ... or /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf - how do they relate? I'm using 12.04.5
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| 16:19 | <vagrantc> use the one in tftp
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| 16:20 | the comments in /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/lts.conf should tell you
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| 16:20 | <mip5> That's what I thought, but I didn't have one in /var/lib/tftp, so I wondered. Should it get created automatically?
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| 16:20 | <vagrantc> no
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| 16:21 | ltsp-config lts.conf
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| 16:21 | that'll create one for you with some useful comments.
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| 16:22 | <mip5> awesome! Thanks. I'd edit the documentation if I knew enough, but feel that's better done by someone else in the community.
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| 16:22 | <vagrantc> thats pretty much what everyone thinks
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| 16:22 | which is why the documentation is almost always out of date
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| 16:23 | <mip5> ;-), yeah, I guess so. I do love what y'all do. It's amazing, really.
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| 16:23 | <sbalneav> when we execute the x-session-manager;ltsp-cleanup.sh, shouldnt that be "x-session-manager > .xsession-errors 2>&1 ; ltsp-cleanup.sh?
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| 16:24 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: it's worth a try
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| 16:25 | <sbalneav> k trying
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| 16:26 | <vagrantc> ah, we don't run Xsession at all
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| 16:26 | <mip5> vagrantc: no man page for ltsp-config. Command not found when I try it as: sudo ltsp-config lts.conf
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| 16:27 | <vagrantc> mip5: you're running that on the server?
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| 16:27 | the ltsp-server?
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| 16:28 | <mip5> yes
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| 16:29 | The only ltsp commands I have in /usr/sbin are: ltsp-build-client ltspfsmounter ltsp-update-kernels
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| 16:29 | ltsp-chroot ltsp-update-image ltsp-update-sshkeys
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| 16:29 | <vagrantc> mip5: i don't ubuntu well enough to know when it was introduced.... it was in ltsp 5.4.0-1 in debian.
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| 16:31 | sbalneav: probably ">>", though
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| 16:31 | <sbalneav> right.
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| 16:31 | duh
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| 16:31 | * sbalneav smacks forhead | |
| 16:31 | <mip5> vagrantc: I'm running ltsp-server 5.3.7, looks like. Ubu 12.04.5
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| 16:33 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: ah, and we're running Xsession locally, presumably...
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| 16:33 | sbalneav: i was thinking we should also run Xsession there ...
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| 16:34 | <sbalneav> Probably.
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| 16:34 | Ah, good, now at least we're writing to .xsession-errors.
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| 16:34 | <mip5> vagrantc: can I just find a default lts.conf file, and create it in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf, or would you recommend I do something else?
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| 16:34 | <sbalneav> LOL
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| 16:35 | Now that we're doing that... it logs out properly :D
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| 16:35 | <vagrantc> mip5: sure.
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| 16:35 | sbalneav: nice!
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| 16:35 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: Where's the source for the ltsp-pam package, I'll commit the change.
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| 16:35 | * vagrantc curses having lts.conf in multiple places | |
| 16:35 | * vagrantc shakes fists | |
| 16:35 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: i don't remember... *sigh*
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| 16:36 | sbalneav: i think mine is in https://code.launchpad.net/~vagrantc/ltsp/ltsp-pam-examples which was forked from your copy, maybe?
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| 16:37 | the version in my apt repository is older than the commits in that repository
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| 16:38 | well, looks like i should roll a new package, and not hit my head against the wall on things that were already fixed.
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| 16:40 | <mip5> vagrantc: hate to ask this, but I aptitude doesn't find ltsp-config. Which sources should I add to /etc/apt/sources.list to get this? I suspect this will require updating my other ltsp- packages as well. That's okay with me.
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| 16:40 | <sbalneav> lol
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| 16:40 | Scotty is usually pretty permissive.
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| 16:40 | HAHAHAH
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| 16:41 | I am indeed.
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| 16:41 | <vagrantc> :)
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| 16:41 | sbalneav: probably should sort out a better license :)
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| 16:41 | <sbalneav> What's better for you? gpl2 or 3?
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| 16:41 | What does debian want?
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| 16:42 | K, I gotta roll for lunch. If you could get, like, an upstream ltsp-pam package that I'd have write access to sorted out by the end of the day, I think we'd be in business!
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| 16:42 | back in an hour or so..
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| 16:42 | <vagrantc> i generally go with gpl2+ ... which allows you to make it GPL3 if you need at some point, but keeps the GPL3 haters at bay.
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| 16:49 | <mip5> vagrantc: can you point me to a default lts.conf example? I can't seem to find one.
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| 16:51 | <vagrantc> /usr/share/doc/ltsp-server/examples/lts.conf ?
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| 16:52 | or /usr/share/doc/ltsp-client-core/examples/lts.conf ?
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| 16:53 | <mip5> thanks
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| 17:14 | <mip5> vagrantc: Still trying to get auto shutdown to work. What's the best way? SHould I just add it to my client crontab?
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| 17:15 | <vagrantc> !lts.conf | echo mip5
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| 17:15 | <ltsp`> mip5 lts.conf: (#1) http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf, or (#2) lts.conf manpage is available in the ltsp-docs package
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| 17:15 | <vagrantc> mip5: should be CRONTAB_01 .. 09 and SHUTDOWN_TIME ...
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| 17:16 | !lts.conf | echo mip5_
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| 17:16 | <ltsp`> mip5_ lts.conf: (#1) http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf, or (#2) lts.conf manpage is available in the ltsp-docs package
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| 17:20 | <mip5> okay - I'll look at that some more. Thanks.
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| 17:21 | <mip5> having some network troubles....
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| 17:30 | vagrantc: I have the lts.conf file configured now with a line: CRONTAB_01 = "30 16 * * 1-5 /sbin/halt". But I also had followed the previous documentation, and have a line RCFILE__02 = /etc/ltsp/crontab.sh, which I copied from the old documentation: http://pastebin.com/dcBuiRCU - Should I get rid of the crontab.sh reference and file now in this version of ltsp?
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| 17:31 | I couldn't get it to work last night at the end of the day.
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| 17:33 | <vagrantc> mip5: no need for crontab.sh
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| 17:34 | at least, there shouldn't be.
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| 17:34 | test it and find you
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| 17:34 | find out
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| 17:34 | <mip5> okay - will I need to rebuild the client image?
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| 17:34 | to get the latest changes to lts.conf
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| 17:37 | <vagrantc> you only need to rebuild the image if you change things inside the chroot.
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| 17:39 | sbalneav: uploaded a new ltsp-pam package
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| 17:39 | * vagrantc really needs to make that a signed repository | |
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| 17:46 | <mip5> thanks - I'll let y'all know how it goes.
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| 17:48 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: yay. new package fixes localapps
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| 18:12 | <sbalneav> awesome
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| 18:14 | .bu6
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| 18:15 | So, I wonder what we need to do to get localdev going.
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| 18:29 | Hm, lightdm seems to ignore the "allow-tcp" option. I have it set to true, but it's still starting X with "-nolisten tcp"
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| 18:54 | Yeah, that's a problem... :D
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| 18:56 | LTSP_at_Home has joined IRC (LTSP_at_Home!6b015ac2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.107.1.90.194) | |
| 18:57 | <LTSP_at_Home> Hello, is it possible to have this set-up at home, without connecting it to the outside world? I assume it is as I've seen multiple in-classroom uses and I doubt they want the students to tinker from their own home/methlab/what-have-you
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| 18:57 | <vagrantc> LTSP_at_Home: sure
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| 19:00 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: I guess I can't write to your ltsp-pam, eh?
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| 19:00 | I've made another change to the xsession file.
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| 19:01 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: ok, let's push it to ~ltsp-upstream then
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| 19:02 | let's see if i remember how to do that...
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| 19:07 | <LTSP_at_Home> vagrantc: Is it harder than installing a regular desktop OS? I've done about 5 of those, but I haven't done much with servers or anything
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| 19:08 | <vagrantc> LTSP_at_Home: a little harder, but not hugely so
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| 19:08 | <LTSP_at_Home> vagrantc: ok. I just install it, and leave that computer hooked into my home router; do I need a switch to make it work?
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| 19:09 | <vagrantc> but your router doesn't have an internet connection?
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| 19:10 | <LTSP_at_Home> It does.
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| 19:10 | <vagrantc> what did you mean by "without connecting it to the outside world" ?
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| 19:11 | sbalneav: i also forgot to push my edits
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| 19:11 | sbalneav: you may lso be interested in git-remote-bzr ... :)
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| 19:13 | <LTSP_at_Home> vagrantc: I use a remote desktop at work, and I can access it via the IP from anywhere. I wouldn't necessarily need that from the house.
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| 19:21 | does that make more sense or no?
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| 19:21 | <vagrantc> i don't quite follow, no.
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| 19:22 | LTSP isn't a protocol like RDP, VNC or NX ... it's about network booted clients.
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| 19:23 | <LTSP_at_Home> vagrantc: OK. So, If I install this at my house and hook it up to my router, will it be accessbile only from inside of my house?
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| 19:23 | <vagrantc> i don't really understand your goal, here.
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| 19:23 | LTSP might not be what you want or need...
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| 19:24 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: Are you creating the ~ltsp-upstream branch?
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| 19:25 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: trying to figure out how, yes.
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| 19:25 | do this so rarely...
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| 19:26 | <sbalneav> heh
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| 19:26 | That's my problem too.
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| 19:27 | <LTSP_at_Home> vagrantc: I want to install it and let me be able to access the same desktop from any of the computers in my house....does it not work that way?
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| 19:28 | <sbalneav> LTSP_at_Home: You'd need to set up a server at home to do that. A diskless workstation can't just boot over the internet.
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| 19:35 | alkisg-android has joined IRC (alkisg-android!~yaaic@176.92.246.44) | |
| 19:37 | <alkisg-android> new openssh... supports socket forwarding!!!
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| 19:37 | deprecates arcfour though
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| 19:39 | <LTSP_at_Home> sbalneav: So I put Ubuntu server on, then install LTSP onto that?
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| 19:41 | <alkisg-android> Ubuntu desktop, not server
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| 19:42 | <sbalneav> LTSP_at_Home: yes.
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| 19:42 | Hey alkisg-android
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| 19:43 | <alkisg-android> Hi Scotty, hows the hackfest going?
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| 19:43 | <vagrantc> alkisg-android: i seem to recall you thinking socket forwarding will make a lot of LTSP6 dreams possibl
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| 19:43 | <sbalneav> alkisg-android: Good, squashed a couple of bugs so far.
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| 19:43 | * vagrantc has just barely dusted off the cobwebs | |
| 19:43 | <vagrantc> alkisg-android: do you remember how to create new repositories on launchpad?
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| 19:44 | <alkisg-android> Yup it would help a lot... e.g. instead of ltspfs we can have reverse sshhfs
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| 19:44 | <LTSP_at_Home> sbalneav: Easy enough (I guess...) Then how does booting into it work with a desktop machine?
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| 19:44 | <sbalneav> You'd have to install LTSP, make sure you've got DHCP configured correctly, etc.
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| 19:44 | <vagrantc> LTSP_at_Home: actually, you'd probably want to install the ubuntu desktop edition, not server edition
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| 19:44 | <alkisg-android> i think simple bzr push new-dir etc
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| 19:45 | <vagrantc> LTSP_at_Home: since LTSP is essentially a server of Desktops, it needs all the desktop packages.
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| 19:47 | * alkisg-android is sorry that he doesn't have much free time for the hackfest this month... | |
| 19:47 | <sbalneav> NP
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| 19:51 | <LTSP_at_Home> vagrantc: So install it on an Ubuntu desktop box, but then how do I login to it?
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| 19:51 | <vagrantc> LTSP_at_Home: you install the ltsp package, build the ltsp environment ... do all the ltsp things.
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| 19:52 | LTSP_at_Home: though from your question about logging in, i'm still not sure if LTSP does what you want/need.
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| 19:52 | <LTSP_at_Home> vagrantc: I'm beggining to doubt it too. haha. Thanks for the help though!
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| 19:55 | <vagrantc> LTSP_at_Home: essentially, LTSP allows you to have a single server on a local network, and network boot several computers on the same local network to log into it.
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| 19:56 | LTSP_at_Home: so you can have multiple users logged into the same server with their own independent sessions
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| 19:59 | <LTSP_at_Home> Right. I think that's what I'm trying to say, just using the wrong words. How do I login to LTSP once I have it installed on an Ubuntu desktop?
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| 20:00 | <vagrantc> you network boot a coputer, it comes up with a login screen
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| 20:02 | sbalneav: https://code.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-pam
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| 20:02 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: You are my hero
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| 20:02 | I'll push up a patch in a few minutes.
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| 20:02 | <vagrantc> apparently i just had to bzr push to the right URL
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| 20:06 | <LTSP_at_Home> vagrantc: Ah ok. So that machine could theoretically have a local disk with its own OS or switch and boot to the network and have the terminal server, right?
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| 20:07 | <vagrantc> LTSP_at_Home: sure
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| 20:07 | LTSP_at_Home: or no disk at all
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| 20:10 | <LTSP_at_Home> vagrantc: Right. OK, that makes more sense. How do I force the computer with network boot to find the LTSP?
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| 20:10 | <vagrantc> LTSP_at_Home: you configure your dhcp server, or set up proxydhcp
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| 20:13 | <LTSP_at_Home> vagrantc: DHCP = Chinese to me, but I'm sure that's beyond the scope of this help board here
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| 20:13 | thanks!
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| 20:14 | <vagrantc> !dhcp
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| 20:14 | <ltsp`> dhcp: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/DHCP
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| 20:14 | <vagrantc> wow. that's outdated.
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| 20:16 | <LTSP_at_Home> haha. It didn't take me to a DHCP page..
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| 20:18 | It's OK, I'll look it up when I actually try to do this. Thanks for the help!
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| 20:56 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: Pushed a mod.
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| 20:58 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: that looks mich simpler :)
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| 20:58 | much, also
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| 21:04 | <sbalneav> Well, if TCP's enabled, we don't want to launch TWM :D
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| 21:04 | We just want to launch x-session-manager with the DISPLAY variable set.
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| 21:04 | Seems to work here.
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| 21:06 | <vagrantc> and that enabled TCP is essentially the correlary to LDM_DIRECTX ?
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| 21:12 | <sbalneav> Yes
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| 21:12 | I would say so.
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| 21:14 | <vagrantc> so, rather than the single ltsp.desktop file ...
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| 21:14 | we need to generate .desktop files for each session on the server
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| 21:15 | localdev needs some plumbing
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| 21:15 | anything else?
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| 21:15 | sound?
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| 21:15 | <sbalneav> Prolly.
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| 21:15 | Lets tackle localdev tomorrow, how's that sound?
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| 21:15 | Lenny seems not bad
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| 21:16 | <vagrantc> lenny?
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| 21:16 | <sbalneav> I might skip wheezy here at legal aid and just go straight to lenny
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| 21:16 | erm
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| 21:16 | <vagrantc> you mean jessie? :)
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| 21:16 | <sbalneav> jessie, lenny
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| 21:16 | One of them thar things.
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| 21:16 | :D
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| 21:16 | <vagrantc> what's roughtly 9 years of code going to make a difference? :)
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| 21:17 | <sbalneav> heh
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| 21:17 | So tomorrow, we'll get the sound and the usb sticks goin'
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| 21:18 | Then we'll generate the .desktop files properly.
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| 21:18 | * vagrantc wonders if jessie will have a reasonably short freeze | |
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| 21:19 | <sbalneav> hope so.
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