IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 6 August 2011 (all times are UTC)
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| 02:59 | <bradn> greetings, #ltsp! Quick question, maybe someone here knows something... is there a way to make firefox run on two displays at the same time from the same user?
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| 03:03 | <Damianos> you mean like an extended desktop (2 monitors)?
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| 03:04 | <bradn> no, LTSP setup with host as the main terminal and another client machine, but if the same user is logged into both terminals only one can run firefox
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| 03:05 | <Damianos> ah yes...I had the same problem the other day. I don't know of a way to do that
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| 03:05 | <bradn> it works out slick because all the files and email are the same from both access points, but kmail and firefox don't like running 2 copies at a time. kmail isn't a big deal because that can be manually closed, but firefox is messier because there might be a bunch of webpages open
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| 03:08 | <Damianos> why do you need the two sessions by the same user though? I'm not trying to be smart btw, it just that it sounds pretty important to you and I can't think of a situation that would require that
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| 03:09 | <bradn> well the way it's set up, we've got the main machine in the house, and a workshop in the adjacent building
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| 03:09 | so it's nice to have access to the same stuff in both locations but it leads to situations where programs are open on both of them
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| 03:10 | <Damianos> ok, gotcha
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| 03:10 | <bradn> true though, most places like schools probably don't run into that much
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| 03:11 | in the process of upgrading from kubuntu 8.04 to 11.04 right now... in the beginning we used konqueror on 8.04 and that didn't have a limitation like firefox does
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| 03:12 | but as time went on konqueror became less and less useful on various sites, even on a fresh install with 11.04 the flash plugin crashes horribly in it
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| 03:12 | <Damianos> Are you wanting to access the same stuff you had open at home while you're in the work area? Or are you just interested in opening a separate window?
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| 03:13 | <bradn> just a separate window is enough
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| 03:16 | it'd be nice if it could use the same firefox profile... it seems the problem is it sees the other instance running but either its IPC doesn't work across displays or it's just not written to handle multiple windows split across displays (or both)
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| 03:16 | <Damianos> read this: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firefox_:_FAQs_:_Run_more_than_one_instance_in_Linux
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| 03:17 | that should solve it. Haven't tried it myself but it looks legit
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| 03:18 | here;s another way: http://www.callum-macdonald.com/about/faq/multiple-firefox-instances/
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| 03:18 | <bradn> thanks for the links, checking 'em out...
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| 03:19 | <Damianos> I'd try the second one first
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| 03:19 | seems less obtrusive
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| 03:21 | <bradn> hmm, I wonder if using --no-remote to start the second instance but with the same profile is likely to cause problems?
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| 03:25 | <Damianos> I couldn't tell you off hand. I'd expect it simply wouldn't let you start it
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| 03:26 | <bradn> the manpage kinda makes it sound like it would work, at least it doesn't say they need to be different profiles
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| 03:26 | "Don't connect to any other running instances of firefox. Use this if you want to run firefox in an entirely new process. By default,
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| 03:26 | firefox will delegate a command to an already running instance."
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| 03:26 | <Damianos> I'm going to try it now
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| 03:26 | booting a VM
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| 03:26 | <bradn> k
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| 03:29 | if only firefox didn't pop up a message window when it occurred and instead returned an error code... could make a script to automatically start a new instance if needed
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| 03:29 | but then I wonder what happens to its IPC mechanism... would the original firefox still share processes on the first machine, or would the 2nd machine share processes at all?
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| 03:33 | <Damianos> well i tried it by specifying "default" as the profile name and it threw the same error at me
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| 03:34 | well it said in the article that you could dupe your profile so I think that is your best bet
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| 03:35 | or if all your using it for is web browsing then perhaps VNC might be an alternative
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| 03:41 | <bradn> hmm, alright
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| 03:42 | I'm wondering if there's a way to use 2 profiles with a wrapper script to pick the profile based on the display
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| 03:42 | <Damianos> well changing the profile with profile manager seems to work
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| 03:43 | <bradn> did you still have to use -no-remote?
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| 03:44 | <Damianos> I did ssh with x forwarding so I just used ProfileManager's GUI
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| 03:45 | <bradn> so you just ran it like "firefox -ProfileManager"
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| 03:45 | <Damianos> yes
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| 03:45 | chose my profile from the list and hit "Start Firefox"
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| 03:46 | you'll have an untouched firefox
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| 03:46 | maybe if we can hunt down the folder where the profile files are stored, we could just do symlinks
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| 03:46 | <bradn> interesting, I wonder if one still needs to do --no-remote with -P for profile selection...
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| 03:46 | if -P is enough, I should be able to make a wrapper script
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| 03:47 | <Damianos> sounds good...sorry if my suggestions aren't very elegant. I'm still kind of new to Linux
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| 03:48 | <bradn> lol no problem, actually I've been feeling stupid on this whole project
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| 03:49 | I'm used to gentoo, oddly enough, so the way ubuntu does things with an extra layer of management seems to throw me off every time
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| 03:49 | here I was trying to set up 11.04 with a static ip and turns out using the fancy gui tool isn't the right way to set it
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| 03:50 | <Damianos> funny...I had the opposite experience
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| 03:50 | <bradn> sure, it sets the IP, but not early enough in the boot sequence to make the ltsp scripts happy... finally realized I had to set it in /etc/network and then it worked
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| 03:50 | <Damianos> you mean the DHCP server starting too late?
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| 03:51 | I had that problem too
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| 03:51 | <bradn> I don't think it was starting at all for me, then I would manually start it
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| 03:51 | and then apparently I was missing the tftp server or something
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| 03:52 | <Damianos> I tried to set up the interfaces via the config file and it screwed up the Wlan NIC
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| 03:52 | <bradn> to make things more interesting I had an ip address conflict with an extra router we added, which strangely enough didn't fully prevent it from working
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| 03:52 | <Damianos> I had to go to NetworkManager and it worked fine from there minus the DHCP
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| 03:52 | <bradn> but tftp would only succeed on maybe 1/10 tries
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| 03:52 | hmm
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| 03:53 | I was using the kde network config thing, I'm not sure if it hooks in with networkmanager, but it seems aware of it being changed in /etc
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| 03:53 | or at least some other program managing it
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| 03:53 | <Damianos> I'm not sure if NetworkManager is a Ubuntu thing or a Gnome thing
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| 03:54 | <bradn> good question
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| 03:55 | google can answer that one... hosted on gnome.org so must be theirs
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| 03:56 | although it's present in kubuntu also so maybe it's an official thing for all ubuntu
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| 04:01 | one complaint for the updated software... kde4/qt4 seems a lot choppier over ltsp than 3.5 did
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| 04:02 | <Damianos> I actually just found a very good candidate for my next LTSP deployment. It's called elementaryOS
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| 04:02 | it's very slick looking but extremely lightweight
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| 04:03 | <bradn> hmm
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| 04:03 | <Damianos> so far I like it a lot
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| 04:03 | elementaryos.org
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| 04:03 | I installed LTSP on it today
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| 04:03 | it works fine with the exception of the dock doesn't show up in the client right now
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| 04:04 | this is an extremely young fork of ubuntu
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| 04:04 | ISO is only 640MB
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| 04:05 | <bradn> lol... but their discover page says "rock your dock out"
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| 04:05 | maybe they're cautioning... rock it too hard and it'll come out
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| 04:05 | <Damianos> lol, yeah but I think right now they are just concentrating on traditional desktop use
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| 04:06 | LTSP is not usually the first priority for a distro
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| 04:06 | in any case for a 1.0 release it's pretty impressive
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| 04:07 | <bradn> yeah it's nice to see ltsp supported as good as it is now
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| 04:07 | <Damianos> I wouldn't put it in a production environment yet but I'm definitely watching it's progress
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| 04:07 | <bradn> in the beginning it was a lot worse trying to make flash work with sound and get local devices to work...
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| 04:07 | <Damianos> if only IT departments would be as supportive
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| 04:08 | <bradn> at least we've never had a virus, never had data loss (helps having a single point to back up)
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| 04:09 | <Damianos> I started tinkering with it to help my wife out. She's an elementary school music teacher and I salvaged 10 machines to use as clients. I'm providing a desktop and the IT guys are not willing to help out with a switch and are questioning why we want it in the first place
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| 04:10 | <bradn> ahh, I see
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| 04:11 | <Damianos> my technical background is with web development so I'm not a Unix geek but I learn quick
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| 04:11 | <bradn> I've always wanted to set up a lab and demo it all working and everything and see if any businesses would be interested, I think it'd be fun admining stuff like this
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| 04:11 | <Damianos> for sure
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| 04:12 | I just saw in England a games and toy developer is piloting a program for $25 PCs for education institutions
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| 04:12 | it's an arm processor with one end HDMI and the other USB input....if that thing had ethernet it would be the ultimate thin client
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| 04:14 | <bradn> hmm, sounds kinda interesting
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| 04:14 | were the specs decent enough to really run an x server?
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| 04:16 | <Damianos> http://www.geek.com/articles/games/game-developer-david-braben-creates-a-usb-stick-pc-for-25-2011055/
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| 04:16 | 700mhz CPU
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| 04:16 | ARM
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| 04:17 | 128MB RAM
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| 04:17 | runs OpenGL ES 2.0
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| 04:17 | 1080p out of the HDMI
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| 04:17 | runs ubuntu
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| 04:17 | <bradn> eek, 128 gets rough if you got a lot of programs open (or a particularly badly designed webpage in konqueror, at least on 3.5)
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| 04:18 | <Damianos> well it's not perfect but if he did one with more ram and ethernet for $50....
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| 04:18 | lol
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| 04:18 | <bradn> true
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| 04:19 | I liked the approach of small VESA mounted computer case on the back of a LCD
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| 04:19 | <Damianos> Just saw this line in the article..."It also looks as though modules can be attached such as the 12MP camera seen in the image above."
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| 04:19 | <bradn> unfortunately the cases and boards tend to get pricy
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| 04:20 | I wonder if that's just USB or what exactly
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| 04:23 | <Damianos> dunno...but like I said before, more ram plus an ethernet module and build it into a 20" monitor...sell it for $120
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| 04:24 | <bradn> it would have some uses
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| 04:27 | I wish more people developed for reduced spec machines... it's neat having stuff in that form factor that's worlds past what I was playing doom II on
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| 04:27 | software bloat... ugh.
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| 04:29 | anyway, I'm gonna get going, thanks for the help!
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| 04:30 | <Damianos> g'night
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| 13:02 | <Hyperbyte> Andy my man. :-)
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| 14:21 | <markit> anyone using kde with ltsp?
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| 14:22 | <Hyperbyte> .... !ask. ;-)
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| 15:06 | <markit> Hyperbyte: sorry, was away... what do you mean? you do?
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| 15:06 | (but ! is negation...)
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| 15:06 | <Hyperbyte> !ask | echo markit
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| 15:06 | <ltsp> markit ask: Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least 15 minutes after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel..
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| 15:07 | <Hyperbyte> That :-)
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| 15:07 | <markit> ah, but this is a generical queston, just a "pool" :)
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| 15:07 | so that's the only whole question, lol
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| 15:07 | * markit feels so lonely | |
| 15:07 | <Hyperbyte> So it's just for statistical purposes? :-) There's no KDE problem you need help with? :)
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| 15:34 | <knipwim> it would be interesting to know which window managers are used in ltsp deployments
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| 15:35 | <Damianos> Can't speak for overall usage but I'm using Gnome
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| 15:37 | <Hyperbyte> <- Gnome
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| 15:38 | <knipwim> fluxbox for me
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| 15:39 | <muppis> Gnome.
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| 15:43 | <Hyperbyte> Which one of the all window managers is closest to Windows (interface-wise) do you guys think?
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| 15:43 | -the
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| 15:43 | * Hyperbyte never tried anything besides Gnome | |
| 15:44 | <knipwim> isn't that more like a theme issue?
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| 15:44 | <muppis> More like usability.
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| 15:47 | <Damianos> I think generally KDE is the most comfortable for a windows user to move to
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| 15:49 | <Hyperbyte> People adjusted pretty damn quickly when I deployed Gnome at the office... greatly surprised me. I'd expected more hassle and complaints, but I just said "tomorrow you all have a different system, you can find your programs by clicking the icon in the top left of you screen. good luck!"
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| 15:49 | Basically
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| 15:49 | And it worked.
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| 15:49 | <markit> Hyperbyte: you must be really scaring
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| 15:50 | or be the boss
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| 15:50 | or be a serial killer no one wants to upset
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| 15:50 | <Hyperbyte> Haha, neither of those I think. Well maybe the first a little. :-)
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| 15:50 | <Damianos> well I'm sure the automatic weapon held to the kitten's head probably helped
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| 15:50 | jk
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| 15:50 | <markit> people try to do things like they are used
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| 15:51 | <Hyperbyte> I think it greatly helped that we were already using Thunderbird and Firefox on Windows. Those didn't change.
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| 15:51 | <markit> i.e. a teacher told me "installing programs in linux is hard, you have to find it on internet, donwload them and when double click does not install"
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| 15:51 | Hyperbyte: if they use LibreOffice on windows, it helps too
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| 15:52 | <Hyperbyte> Yeah, that one I forgot. :) LibreOffice, Thunderbird and Firefox.
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| 15:52 | <markit> in fact is not a OS migration, is an entire sw ecosystem migration
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| 15:52 | Hyperbyte: lol, so they use Windows only for viruses?
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| 15:52 | <knipwim> markit: teachers really shouldn't be allowed to install programs
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| 15:52 | <markit> knipwim: of course, but is the teacher is helping me convince all the others, so I installed kubuntu on her laptop
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| 15:53 | and let her experiment :)
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| 15:53 | (but with CONSTANT help, when needed)
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| 15:53 | <Hyperbyte> markit, six years ago, when I deployed Windows XP, the company wasn't ready for Linux. We still used a Microsoft Access database as our CRM. I've been completely rewriting that to PHP since, and now it is ready for Linux. :-)
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| 15:53 | <markit> Hyperbyte: good shot
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| 15:53 | <Hyperbyte> In fact we've been running LTSP for a month or two now. I still get a kick walking around the office seeing everybody use Gnome. =D
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| 15:53 | <markit> btw, i think we are very weak on "branding"
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| 15:54 | Apple is very "visible"
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| 15:54 | M$ is
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| 15:54 | no one knows about GNU
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| 15:54 | nor is able to tell you are using it just looking at you
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| 15:54 | working on a laptop
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| 15:54 | but this is a different story than ltsp :)
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| 15:55 | I would like to have children go home and scream "I want GNU at home too"
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| 15:55 | or grow up and remember that they need a GNu laptop
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| 15:55 | <Damianos> Gnu school computing
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| 15:55 | <markit> and not go for apple-chains or M$-chains
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| 15:56 | <Damianos> I think Android might be an angle to think about exploiting
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| 15:56 | <markit> but teachers don't care about freedom, so the message will not pass
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| 15:56 | Damianos: android is almost proprietary
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| 15:56 | <Hyperbyte> Regardless, I agree with Damianos.
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| 15:56 | <markit> you can't select only free apps, and proprietary apps are encouraged
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| 15:56 | <Damianos> do you have access to Android's source code?
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| 15:56 | <markit> so having a "Free" app launcher does make no difference
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| 15:56 | Damianos: only the kernel and basic stuff
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| 15:57 | <Damianos> still though...there is access and it is the linux kernel and people use it every day
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| 15:57 | <markit> Free software could win with donations ($) and keeping license GPL, so who develops GPL code can build upon all the GPL work already done
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| 15:57 | <Damianos> it is not this bad word like linux is
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| 15:57 | <Hyperbyte> markit, Android does prove and show to the world that Unix based systems can kick the ass of any Mac and Windows based system if the right development is put behind it.
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| 15:58 | <markit> Hyperbyte: it proves that if you surrender your freedom, you can have a percectly "almost proprietary" product that can compete
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| 15:58 | consider how strange is that
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| 15:58 | in many netbooks now
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| 15:58 | <Damianos> there is no almost
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| 15:58 | either it is or it isn't
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| 15:58 | <markit> you have Win7 OR android
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| 15:58 | while a GNU distro would be MUCH better
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| 15:59 | <knipwim> but it proves a brand can exist which is not Mac or M$
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| 15:59 | <markit> knipwim: that's true
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| 15:59 | but who can impose branding does not do to free users
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| 15:59 | and FSF is not very skilled in branding
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| 15:59 | take the GNU picture...
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| 16:00 | or the term "free" insteado of "freedom software" or better "software libre"
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| 16:00 | Linux? oh, it's freeware?
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| 16:00 | <Damianos> the other thing that must be acknowledged is that Android came into it's own not only because of branding but because they focused on a market that was being ignored by computer/software companies
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| 16:00 | <knipwim> windows' advantage is everything is windows, the kernel, the window manager, everything you see
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| 16:01 | <markit> Damianos: I don't like apple because is not free, but I have to admit that iPhone was the real innovator
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| 16:01 | <knipwim> in linux land everything is divided, different brands for every part
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| 16:01 | <markit> knipwim: yes, in fact I don't know what stick put on my laptop
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| 16:01 | the GNU one? Debian one? The KDE one?
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| 16:01 | you maybe have the Kubuntu one or whatever else
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| 16:02 | <knipwim> hard to market all those different ones
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| 16:02 | <markit> so 10 GNU users don't count as much as 3 Apple ones
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| 16:02 | if you look at them at the restourant or airport
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| 16:02 | <Hyperbyte> knipwim, I agree. One of the biggest problems of open source developers is the division between them... imagine if all open source developers had one idea, one vision, and all started working on it. You'd have the perfect OS in a year.
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| 16:02 | <markit> Hyperbyte: define perfect :))
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| 16:02 | Hyperbyte: you are right, but in part
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| 16:02 | the "difference" is positive
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| 16:02 | what could be done better
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| 16:03 | is a single branding
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| 16:03 | a single symbol to show
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| 16:03 | a nice graphic with "GNU" as label
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| 16:03 | then you can use the kernel you want
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| 16:03 | the desktop you want
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| 16:03 | <Damianos> markit: that is all really superficial
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| 16:03 | <markit> but you tell the world that you are Free
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| 16:03 | Damianos: I know, but really counts
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| 16:04 | we talk with GNU users most of the time
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| 16:04 | <Damianos> I think branding needs to start elsewhere
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| 16:04 | not with the pictures
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| 16:04 | <markit> if you go around and tell about Free Softwae, 0.001% kwnows what you really mean
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| 16:04 | <knipwim> markit: i agree, but it would be more a brand of an idea, made concrete by the various software you're using
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| 16:04 | <markit> Damianos: pictures are important, don't understimate :)
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| 16:04 | <Damianos> pick a target audience
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| 16:04 | that is the most importanta
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| 16:04 | <markit> knipwim: yes, but this alone will facilitate a lot
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| 16:05 | <Damianos> sometimes linux tries to be all things to everybody
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| 16:05 | <markit> you will tell about free software associated with a brand/picture
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| 16:05 | then people will recognize the whole system
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| 16:05 | as a really cool idea
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| 16:05 | <knipwim> and meybe more the idea of choice than free software
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| 16:05 | <markit> instead of having the feeling that is just a mess
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| 16:05 | and not being able to undestand that if you use gnome, and me kde
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| 16:06 | we are using the same important thing
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| 16:06 | <knipwim> like mac is also a fashion statement
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| 16:06 | <Damianos> yes but linux will never have a great brand because the term "Linux" itself doesn't even refer to a unified thing
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| 16:06 | I think Ubuntu has started down the right path but is now straying
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| 16:06 | <markit> GNU must be the brand, not "linux", and that's another big mistake/unfortunate fact
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| 16:07 | Damianos: ubuntu is going to build a "market" like android
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| 16:07 | killing freedom
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| 16:07 | <Hyperbyte> markit, how does a market for applications kill freedom?
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| 16:07 | <markit> Hyperbyte: because you inject proprietary software
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| 16:07 | <Hyperbyte> Ubuntu already has it, sort of. The software center. Difference with Android market is that outside developers can put their applications in.
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| 16:07 | <markit> easy to reach and install
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| 16:08 | Hyperbyte: they should leverage donations to Free software
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| 16:08 | with a "donation market"
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| 16:08 | if they want make money that way
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| 16:08 | freedom is not freedom of choice proprietary programs
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| 16:08 | is being free as a user
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| 16:08 | and using proprietary programs you surrender
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| 16:09 | also Free program developers are less motivated
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| 16:09 | because people don't need their programs since they can install the proprietary ones
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| 16:09 | <Hyperbyte> Wow markit slow down take it easy. :)
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| 16:09 | <knipwim> that's beside the point i think
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| 16:09 | <markit> maybe for a small amount, or just craking them
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| 16:09 | Hyperbyte: hehehe, you are right, I very emotional involved on Free software
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| 16:10 | I really feel the situation being like an injustice that is dooming my future and my children's one
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| 16:10 | <Damianos> If Gnu was a company what I would do is focus on one market segment alone and start there. For instance, creative professionals would be the ideal target right now. Have a distro like ubuntu that only focuses on underlying architecture and applications for creative professionals. Imagine There was an Adobe CS5 style distro that had a fantastic web IDE, photoshop killer, video editor and music software. I would tell every develop
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| 16:10 | focus on the photoshop killer and addon bundles for Gedit
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| 16:10 | <markit> and more if we talk about software patents (better skip this subject)
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| 16:10 | <Damianos> The timing would be perfect because final cut pro is very weak right now
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| 16:11 | <markit> Damianos: yes, but gimp has 3 developers
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| 16:11 | <Hyperbyte> So, ehm... guys... what about the weather? Are you guys having a good summer? :)
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| 16:11 | <Damianos> Adobe got a kick in the pants from Apple and many web folks are sick of Avid,Adobe,Apple and M$
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| 16:11 | <markit> free software users usually don't understand freedom, so they don't value it and nto donate
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| 16:12 | we must change the world :)
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| 16:12 | <knipwim> markit: our company is
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| 16:12 | <markit> Hyperbyte: we need your ideas and contributions, not weather information, lol
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| 16:12 | <knipwim> markit: we made a selection of most valued free software to donate to
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| 16:12 | <markit> knipwim: is donating money you mean?
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| 16:12 | <knipwim> yes
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| 16:12 | <markit> knipwim: kudos to you!!!
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| 16:13 | I do my best either
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| 16:13 | and I've convinced my children to donate to some free game they play
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| 16:13 | <knipwim> i mean to say, it;s not hopeless
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| 16:13 | <markit> knipwim: yes, but we are shy on this I think
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| 16:13 | <Damianos> I think the whole linux space needs focus
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| 16:13 | <markit> I mean, I've installed Ltsp in a school (for free)
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| 16:13 | then I'm doing in another
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| 16:14 | but this time I've listed the needed budget
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| 16:14 | <knipwim> markit: true, linux users need to communicate more, and gloat to windows users :)
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| 16:14 | <markit> for the server, switch, etc
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| 16:14 | <Damianos> I'm installing LTSP in my wife's class and I'm getting all kinds of grief from the IT staff
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| 16:14 | <markit> and put 3x100 euros neede in donation to free software
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| 16:14 | they saved > 1.000 euros in M$ license
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| 16:15 | so why not ask for a contribution?
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| 16:15 | fortunatly they agreed
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| 16:15 | <Damianos> why don't you charge for the service and integrate a donation into the price
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| 16:15 | ?
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| 16:15 | <markit> Damianos: eh, your situation is different
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| 16:15 | Damianos: oh, is a tax matter
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| 16:15 | <Damianos> why?
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| 16:15 | <markit> if I charge 100 I pay 50% in taxes
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| 16:15 | <Damianos> you can write it off no?
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| 16:16 | <markit> if the school pays directly, no tax
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| 16:16 | Damianos: debian does not print invoices
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| 16:16 | for donations
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| 16:16 | <knipwim> nice, blackmarket ltsp deployments :)
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| 16:16 | <Damianos> you know the interesting thing about people and pricing
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| 16:16 | <markit> lol
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| 16:16 | <Damianos> people will take you seriously if you charge a lot of money but they won't if you give the same thing for free
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| 16:16 | <markit> if I buy M$ os I can deduce, if I donate to KDE I can't
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| 16:18 | <Damianos> there is always a way
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| 16:18 | <markit> btw, interesting conversation
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| 16:19 | <Damianos> I don't know markit...This will probably make you very angry but I honestly think there is a place for both proprietary and OSS...it doesn't have to be either or
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| 16:19 | <markit> Damianos: in the world on in your pc?
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| 16:19 | <Damianos> both
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| 16:19 | <markit> well, the main problem is
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| 16:19 | that GNU has beem created to free the user
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| 16:20 | you can like it or not
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| 16:20 | if you don't, there is M$ or Apple
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| 16:20 | <markit> but now I feel that saying teh basic fact that you have to use free software to keep your freedom
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| 16:20 | <knipwim> but to integrate, Gnu has to exist in a world where both are available
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| 16:20 | <markit> people call me "integralist"
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| 16:21 | knipwim: my dream is that every sw is Free, but in the meanwhile you have to integrate, of course
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| 16:21 | back to freedom
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| 16:21 | I've seen people install whatever they like because don't know about freedom
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| 16:21 | expecialli in ubuntu postst of forums
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| 16:21 | they rant because "there is no photoshop"
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| 16:21 | someone is asking for "Nero" (sigh!!!)
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| 16:22 | etc.
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| 16:22 | <knipwim> hmm, i think they install something because they want something to work,
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| 16:22 | freedom is not taken into account
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| 16:22 | <Damianos> this comes back to what I spoke of earlier though
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| 16:22 | <markit> so if you understand freedom, value it and want to hurt yourself you are free
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| 16:22 | but should never come like "the normal way" or the "more intelligent way"
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| 16:23 | knipwim: if I want something to eat
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| 16:23 | <Hyperbyte> markit, if I want to hurt myself, I'll use Audacity rather than Adobe Audition for my radio production work. :-)
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| 16:23 | <Damianos> don't market to the lowest common denominator. Go for professional users. M$ markets to corporate drones...Apple is now almost exclusively for the consumer. Gnu should go after the creative professionals
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| 16:23 | <Hyperbyte> Some proprietary software has no good GNU alternatives.
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| 16:23 | <markit> I don't eat what has no label and is not guaranteed to be ok
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| 16:23 | Damianos: creative professionals use Apple don't they?
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| 16:23 | Hyperbyte: ok, so donate and build
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| 16:24 | Hyperbyte: are those people ok in spending 1.400$ for photoshop
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| 16:24 | and donate NOTHING to gimp?
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| 16:24 | with much money you could pay full time developers
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| 16:24 | and all the world will be happy
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| 16:25 | that's why I say is important not using proprietary programs in GNU
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| 16:25 | because kills the push for a free alternative
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| 16:25 | <Damianos> yes but people that invest in software are doing it with the idea of ROI...why should they invest money into R&D that will empower their competition?
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| 16:25 | <Lumiere> because they know more about it
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| 16:25 | <Hyperbyte> markit, no it doesn't. If that was the case, people wouldn't be using OpenOffice on Windows.
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| 16:25 | <Lumiere> and provide a better Value Add
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| 16:26 | btw ROI is a horrible measure
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| 16:26 | Damianos: you come at this from a 'people are greedy' angle
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| 16:26 | <Damianos> I'm not advocating it, I'm just illustrating the mindset of business oriented people that invest in software like photoshop
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| 16:26 | <markit> Damianos: competitors, if are good players, will contribute themselves, and in any case you are ahead since you created the code, you manage the project, you can offer better consulting, etc
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| 16:26 | <Lumiere> where the general point of the Open Source community is exactly the opposite
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| 16:26 | <Hyperbyte> Meanwhile, I'm gonna have some dinner. Will you guys please remember that this discussion will not come to a good conclusion if you let it get overheated? :) Take care.
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| 16:27 | <Lumiere> Hyperbyte: if it gets too bad
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| 16:27 | I op and deal with it
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| 16:27 | <Hyperbyte> Heheh, ah, you're op.
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| 16:27 | ChanServ sets mode: +o Lumiere | |
| 16:27 | Lumiere sets mode: -o ltsp | |
| 16:27 | Lumiere sets mode: -o Lumiere | |
| 16:27 | <Lumiere> too many Ls in here ;)
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| 16:27 | <Hyperbyte> I don't think it'll go there though. :) Just saying you know, as interesting as the discussion is, it'll never come to a good conclusion.
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| 16:27 | <Lumiere> yep
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| 16:27 | I have had to use op in here
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| 16:28 | maybe once a year
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| 16:28 | <Hyperbyte> Either way, dinner. :)
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| 16:28 | <markit> Hyperbyte: well, as I said, often feel alone and frustrated, knowing that there are other people that share my vision and can tell about different points of view and dig on the difficoulties is really good
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| 16:29 | btw, I'm italian, and I really I'm not fluent enough in english
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| 16:29 | <Lumiere> You're doing pretty well ;)
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| 16:29 | <markit> so I use very basic words and broken grammar
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| 16:29 | and also my brain get tired much sooner
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| 16:30 | so after a while I don't even find the right keys on the keyboard :)
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| 16:30 | <Damianos> well my basic argument is that in order for OSS to flourish and conquer a market segment, proprietary software does not need to disappear. As far as making that happen, I would (as a potential contributor and as an end user) would really like to see something that really shines for creative professionals. Most of the pieces are there. The only thing keeping me from going Linux 100% is a photoshop replacement
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| 16:31 | <markit> Damianos: agree
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| 16:31 | photoshop is like autocad
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| 16:31 | professionals spend HUGE money for autocad
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| 16:31 | since is "the standard" (at least here in italy)
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| 16:32 | but invest NOTHING in FreeCAD for instance
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| 16:32 | that's mad
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| 16:32 | <Damianos> I taught an after school program at my wife's school last year...It was about using inkscape amnd they loved it
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| 16:32 | <markit> but i've the feeling
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| 16:32 | that people are not aware
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| 16:32 | <Damianos> I loved it too. I don't miss Iluustrator at all after digging into inkscape
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| 16:32 | <markit> they thing FOSS = no price
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| 16:32 | and found a development = build a proprietary program you have to pay license for
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| 16:33 | they don't realize that FOSS = something you can change and improve yourself
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| 16:33 | directly or with your money
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| 16:33 | really is not so simple
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| 16:33 | is 20-30 years people only used proprietary sw and sow the propriatary model of sw business
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| 16:39 | <Lumiere> btw, there are multiple layers of 'creative professionals'
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| 16:39 | <Damianos> well there are the graphics people (2D/3D) Video, Audio and Web
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| 16:39 | <Lumiere> most of the very high end companies that do this use linux
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| 16:40 | <Damianos> web designers in particular do both coding and graphics in various balances
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| 16:41 | I am a web guy and a musician. As a web person, I liked the mac systems but the whole html5 thing vs flash thing has left a sour taste in my mouth towards both apple and adobe
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| 16:41 | <Lumiere> but they build their own graphics toolkit
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| 16:41 | and they don't like to share
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| 16:42 | <Damianos> there's a millions of small time web guys like me out there though
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| 16:42 | <markit> Damianos: btw, I'm trying to leard ruby on rails development
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| 16:42 | (never dev for web, I'm a former desktop proprietary dev with delphi)
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| 16:42 | <Lumiere> The issue is
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| 16:43 | <Damianos> the reason they don't share comes back to the whole ROI idea...again I don't advocate it but that's how people think out there
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| 16:43 | <markit> Damianos: there is also the "free ride" stuff
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| 16:43 | <Lumiere> Damianos: actually they do sell their stuff
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| 16:43 | <Damianos> markit: not familiar with rails, I know actoinscript, javascript
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| 16:43 | <Lumiere> but they sell it as a product
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| 16:43 | <Damianos> right, like flash builder (aka eclipse)
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| 16:44 | <Lumiere> btw, most photoshop users could do fine in gimp
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| 16:44 | <Damianos> I don't like the UI...I should give it another spin
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| 16:44 | * markit checks wikipedia... is not "free ride", but can't remember... is if you don't pay the bus ticket, you don't damage teh system that much and bus still will work and you have an advantage | |
| 16:44 | <Damianos> I haven't tried it in a while
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| 16:45 | <Lumiere> see that's the thing
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| 16:46 | <markit> found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem
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| 16:47 | <knipwim> speaking of professionals, for research: Latex, R and Sweave
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| 16:53 | <Damianos> documentation and a complete overhaul of the UI would do it for GIMP I think. One thing I really liked about Inkscape was that the tools were almost exactly the same, and the docs were great. They went out of their way to provide a chapter for people migrating from illustrator. How inkscape was different and what the inkscape way of doing things was. Those things sold me on inkscape
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| 17:02 | <Hyperbyte> GIMP is complicated. So is Photoshop by the way, just a little bit less and there's more online tutorials I think.
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| 17:03 | <- doesn't like either of them
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| 17:05 | <markit> I've to leave, by and thanks
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| 17:05 | <Damianos> have a good night markit
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| 17:05 | <Hyperbyte> :)
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| 17:05 | Damianos, I liked your earlier article about the $25 USB stick-size PC's.
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| 17:06 | <Damianos> oh yeah...the whole web cam module addon suggests modularity which means it might be possible to add ethernet
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| 17:06 | pity the developer is limiting it's scope to computer science in schools
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| 17:07 | <Hyperbyte> Actually, did you watch the video for the article?
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| 17:07 | <Damianos> yes
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| 17:07 | <Hyperbyte> He said students could use it for Facebook and Twitter as well.
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| 17:07 | Didn't he?
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| 17:07 | <Damianos> I think so but I don't see how
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| 17:08 | <Hyperbyte> I mean, what's the point for a camera addon if it doesn't have any way of transferring the image away from the device?
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| 17:08 | <Damianos> is there a wire less or bluetooth adapter builtin?
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| 17:08 | <Hyperbyte> I have no idea. Didn't find that either, but it looks like networking is covered somehow.
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| 17:08 | <Damianos> the specs do not suggest any sort of network compatibility
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| 17:09 | <Hyperbyte> Then what's the point of a camera? :-)
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| 17:09 | <Damianos> to capture the look on your face when it actually works
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| 17:09 | ?
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| 17:09 | <Hyperbyte> Heh
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| 17:10 | But not publish it online, right? ;-) Makes no sense. Plus I don't think something like that would become popular with students if they couldn't do social networking on it
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| 17:10 | <Damianos> they won't be able to do social networking on it
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| 17:10 | at least not at school...every school IT department has anything like that blocked
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| 17:11 | <Hyperbyte> That's besides the point man. :\
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| 17:11 | <Damianos> there are only two institutions that I know of that block google....China and the US department of education
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| 17:12 | did you read about the new ubuntu off shoot I was testing out
| |
| 17:12 | ?
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| 17:12 | elementaryOS?
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| 17:13 | it looks real slick and performs really well
| |
| 17:14 | I installed LTSP on it and it works with the exception of Docky not showing up on screen (although I checked and it is running)
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| 17:14 | <Hyperbyte> A website without pretty screenshots? :(
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| 17:14 | <Damianos> go to the link on top that says Discover
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| 17:16 | <Hyperbyte> mhm
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| 17:16 | Looks okay.. I'm happy with Ubuntu though. :)
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| 17:16 | Well Edubuntu actually
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| 17:17 | <Damianos> I'm ok with Edubuntu as well, I'm always open to other options though. Besides, in the end it's all just ubuntu isn't it?
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| 17:18 | different gnome and x tweaks but everything should still be compatible
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| 17:22 | Anyway, EOS is appealing simply because it comes with most of the same UI tweaks that I usually do by default. That plus I can still install any of the same software that comes with Edubuntu
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| 22:35 | <Hyperbyte> You're up late. :)
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| 22:41 | * alkisg just got back from the first half of vacations :) | |
| 22:41 | <alkisg> How's your server doing?
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| 22:48 | <Hyperbyte> To be honest
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| 22:48 | Haven't checked :)
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| 22:49 | When I get done with a 60 hour workweek, I'm done. =)
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| 22:49 | Looks okay though. :)
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| 22:53 | <alkisg> :)
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| 22:54 | <Hyperbyte> :)
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