IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 4 May 2012 (all times are UTC)
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| 02:24 | <kleewyck> I just upgraded from Ubuntu 11.10 to edubuntu 12.04 and suddenly my LTSP clients no longer have sound. Any ideas where I could look?
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| 03:10 | <hughessd> I am not an expert (usually here for help), but when that happened to me, it was because of flash.
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| 03:10 | oops, forgot to say: kleewyck, in case you were away
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| 03:24 | <damian__> I really need to learn to take things one step at a time, first get ltsp to work on at least one computer, THEN worry about temporary home directories and virtualgl...
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| 03:24 | seeya
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| 09:55 | <Hyperbyte> Anyone know which gimp version is included with 12.04?
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| 09:58 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: packages.ubuntu.com/gimp
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| 09:59 | <alkisg> There's a ppa for gimp 2.8 though, works ok so far
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| 10:01 | <Hyperbyte> Will 12.04 have an update for 2.8, or is that not likely?
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| 10:02 | I mean via the main Ubuntu repository
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| 10:14 | <alkisg> I don't think it's likely, no
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| 10:14 | Only from PPAs
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| 10:15 | If many people ask for it, it might appear in precise-backports...
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| 16:13 | <muppis> !win32-loader
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| 16:13 | <ltsp`> muppis: win32-loader: win32-loader.exe can be used to add a "PXE - Network boot" option to the Windows boot manager. It's developed for Debian and it uses gPXE/iPXE for the network booting. You can download a binary from http://ftp.debian.org/debian/tools/win32-loader/unstable/ (if someone can write a wiki page about it it'd be nice :))
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| 16:35 | <alkisg> !learn ipxe as iPXE is the successor to the etherboot/gPXE project, and can be used to netboot clients that don't have a NIC ROM with a PXE stack. To add it to grub, see !grub-ipxe. To add it to the Windows boot loader, see !win32-loader. To download floppy, CD or USB images, visit http://ipxe.org or install the ipxe package.
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| 16:35 | <ltsp`> alkisg: The operation succeeded.
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| 16:36 | <alkisg> !learn grub-ipxe as http://packages.ubuntu.com/grub-ipxe can be used to add a "Boot from network" option to grub2.
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| 16:36 | <ltsp`> alkisg: The operation succeeded.
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| 16:37 | <vagrantc> in debian, it's just part of the ipxe package now.
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| 16:37 | <alkisg> So by installing ipxe you also get a grub entry?
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| 16:37 | <vagrantc> yup. and there's an ipxe-qemu for just the qemu roms
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| 16:37 | there was some talk of splitting further ... no idea if that happened
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| 16:38 | <alkisg> I think it makes sense to split it, as someone might want the .iso and the roms without the grub entry... but having an option to disable the grub entry from /etc/default/ipxe would also do, I guess...
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| 16:40 | <vagrantc> you can disable it in /etc/grub.d/20_ipxe
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| 16:40 | actually, it hasn't yet happened
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| 16:40 | (the split)
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| 16:40 | <alkisg> It's quite small in debian, so it might not be worth the split http://packages.debian.org/sid/all/ipxe/filelist
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| 16:41 | <vagrantc> right
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| 16:41 | <alkisg> We should offer an /etc/grub.d/20_ltsp entry too :D
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| 16:42 | (for ltsp boot from local disk)
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| 16:42 | <vagrantc> can you pass boot arguments to ipxe?
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| 16:42 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 16:42 | <vagrantc> alkisg: you mean using the server's kernel/initrd, or using ipxe ?
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| 16:42 | <alkisg> But better yet, you can use an ipxe script as an initrd
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| 16:42 | <vagrantc> or both
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| 16:42 | <alkisg> None
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| 16:42 | If one installs ltsp-client locally, he'd get such an entry,
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| 16:43 | <vagrantc> aha!
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| 16:43 | <alkisg> and by selecting it, it would use the local disk as the ltsp chroot
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| 16:43 | <vagrantc> we're up to all sorts of mischief these days.
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| 16:43 | <alkisg> So the client would boot as a fat client, giving lts.conf global configuration, central user management + sshfs or nfs
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| 16:43 | It's very useful for slow networks, many schools asked for that here
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| 16:44 | <vagrantc> think we can make it viable before the end of may? :)
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| 16:44 | <alkisg> ....yes but only if others do the "ltsp-pnp" stuff testing :D
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| 16:45 | I'll start working tomorrow, been busy with other things the last days and I got a big behind schedule
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| 16:46 | <vagrantc> hopefully i'll have more free time too ...
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| 16:46 | <alkisg> I want to ask some of the more advanced teachers here to try debian installations instead of 12.04 for the next 2 years
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| 16:46 | So if `ltsp-update-image /` works on debian out of the box, it would make it easy for them
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| 16:47 | <vagrantc> debian squeeze? or trying out testing?
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| 16:47 | <alkisg> Testing, but not yet, in the summer
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| 16:47 | Once all the ltsp additions are there
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| 16:47 | (end of may)
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| 16:47 | <vagrantc> great :)
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| 16:50 | alkisg: going with gnome3, or lxde, or xfce or something?
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| 16:50 | <alkisg> Their option
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| 16:50 | There are actually some already using debian + lxde, but without ltsp due to slow network
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| 16:51 | Previously I used to suggest gnome, but now with gnome-shell and unity I think it's better to support alternative DEs too :)
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| 16:51 | <muppis> I'm now using ltsp-client from local hdd and connection is over 54g wlan. Usable. Over 11b wlan it was little bit too slow.
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| 16:52 | <alkisg> muppis: from local hdd, but as a thin client or as a fat one?
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| 16:52 | Because as a thin, 100 mbps for 12 clients isn't enough
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| 16:52 | <muppis> As a thin.
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| 16:52 | <alkisg> While as a fat, they'd only use the nfs/sshfs share
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| 16:52 | Gotta go, later...
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| 17:10 | <jvx> new install .. clients are getting dhcp and gateway IP but hangs at TFTP : "PEX-E11 arp timeout" followed with "TFTP cannot open connection" What's the best place to start for solving?
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| 17:19 | <vagrantc> jvx: is it a managed switch? i've seen similar issues with spanningtree enabled on a set of chained managed switches.
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| 17:19 | also, sometimes issues with gigabit on the server and 100mb on the thin clients and switch interactions
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| 17:22 | <jvx> vagrantc, no switch .. client is direct connected with a cross-over cable. It is though a 1Gb eth on the server going to 100mb client.
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| 17:24 | vagrantc, no way to slow it down? ... I'll have to match eth cards (and reinstall) to fix? Or is there a setting to tune?
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| 17:34 | <vagrantc> jvx: i don't remember the workarounds off the top of my head
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| 18:21 | <alkisg> vagrantc: $ sh -n client/init-ltsp.d/Debian/50-disable-inittab-entries
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| 18:21 | client/init-ltsp.d/Debian/50-disable-inittab-entries: 5: client/init-ltsp.d/Debian/50-disable-inittab-entries: Syntax error: end of file unexpected (expecting "then")
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| 18:21 | I.e. remove the second if
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| 18:24 | * vagrantc is slacking | |
| 18:25 | <vagrantc> alkisg: thanks yet again!
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| 18:26 | <alkisg> np, just making sure Debian is in a good health for end of May :)
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| 18:26 | <vagrantc> hah!
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| 18:26 | <vagrantc> that would also presumably affect future versions of ubuntu, the way you're doing it
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| 18:27 | <alkisg> vagrantc: btw why "DISABLE_INITTAB_GETTYS" and not just "DISABLE_GETTYS", so that we could reuse the same var in ubuntu?
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| 18:27 | <vagrantc> hm.
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| 18:27 | <alkisg> INITTAB refers to the implementation, vars would be better to be implementation agnostic
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| 18:28 | <vagrantc> i was thinking it'd be best to be very specific, but sure.
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| 18:29 | pushed both fixes :)
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| 18:29 | <alkisg> (09:26:38 μμ) vagrantc: that would also presumably affect future versions of ubuntu, the way you're doing it ==> I didn't get that part
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| 18:29 | Ubuntu has no inittab, just upstart files for gettys...
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| 18:29 | <vagrantc> alkisg: sure, i guess it's safeguarded that way
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| 18:30 | <alkisg> Yup, and it might be even reasonable to put it in common, for other distros that still use inittab, assuming the sed line works there
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| 18:31 | Hmm no, no such line in fedora
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| 18:31 | <vagrantc> i'll leave that for others to decide.
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| 18:31 | fedora was using upstart at one point, maybe systemd now?
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| 18:32 | init systems seems to be an area of primary divergence lately ... gentoo has openrc?
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| 18:32 | <alkisg> I was checking Hyperbyte's server, which is an old fedora
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| 18:32 | It only has id:3:initdefault: in inittab
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| 18:33 | * alkisg wishes distros could converge a bit there.... hope systemd will be widely accepted, since upstart doesn't appear to be adopted outside of ubuntu nowadays | |
| 18:33 | <muppis> Which is little sad as being so neat system.
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| 18:36 | <alkisg> The Debian upstart RFP seems permanately frozen
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| 18:36 | *ITP
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| 18:37 | <vagrantc> it should probably be closed, it's in debian stable, testing and unstable :)
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| 18:37 | although an old version
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| 18:37 | <alkisg> Heh! Fun, I didn't notice that :D
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| 18:37 | packages.debian.org/systemd is there too
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| 18:38 | Any rumors about which one will Debian prefer in the future as the default, if any?
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| 18:38 | <vagrantc> there are heated discussions that flare up now and again
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| 18:39 | <vagrantc> though i really haven't seen the desperate need that people seem to go on about ...
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| 18:41 | <alkisg> vagrantc: (thinking about ltsp-update-image), what's a good way to detect if NFS is used? Does ltsp-server.postinst put /opt/ltsp in /etc/exports or the user puts it there manually?
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| 18:42 | <vagrantc> alkisg: historically, the user puts it there manually ... but i've started using /etc/exports/ltsp.exports
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| 18:42 | er, /etc/exports.d/
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| 18:43 | <alkisg> An idea is, if NFS is used, ltsp-update-image could output a warning and stop execution, and tell the user to pass --force in order to switch to NBD
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| 18:43 | <vagrantc> ltsp-server ships /etc/exports.d/ltsp-server.exports
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| 18:43 | <alkisg> Cool, so we can test for that without checking the distro
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| 18:44 | And another idea is, if the user runs ltsp-update-image, to automatically enable pxe menus and list both entries, nbd and nfs
| |
| 18:44 | Whatever you prefer
| |
| 18:45 | What I'd like is to have some command or method to switch debian to nbd with a single command, without editing files
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| 18:45 | ltsp-update-image --force / or whatever
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| 18:45 | <vagrantc> it sounds useful, i'm just not sure how to best do it.
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| 18:46 | alkisg: maybe rather than force, --configure-nbd ?
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| 18:46 | <alkisg> Sure
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| 18:46 | <vagrantc> since that's actually what's it's doing ...
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| 18:47 | <alkisg> But in Ubuntu, that switch wouldn't be needed as NFS isn't used by default
| |
| 18:47 | So I don't know if Ubuntu users would think they'd need to specify that parameter too
| |
| 18:47 | <vagrantc> alkisg: well, if that parameter is safe to re-run on a setup that already supports it, it should be fine.
| |
| 18:48 | <alkisg> Yeah... and a nice description of the parameter will probably settle any misunderstandings
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| 18:48 | <vagrantc> right.
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| 18:48 | <alkisg> OK, will do
| |
| 18:49 | <vagrantc> alkisg: how to handle ext[2-4]/btrfs/etc images vs. squashfs images? essentially read-only "compiled" filesystems vs. more conventional writeable filesystem images?
| |
| 18:49 | <alkisg> Well... some things are needed:
| |
| 18:50 | <vagrantc> we could read the filesystem type from an existing image, and act accordingly
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| 18:50 | <alkisg> 1) fs type, 2) loopback image size, 3) update or recreate the image
| |
| 18:50 | <vagrantc> 1 can be got with file, probably
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| 18:50 | (unless the images are partitioned)
| |
| 18:50 | <alkisg> Not if you are creating it
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| 18:51 | E.g. ltsp-update-image / --type=btrfs --size=1G
| |
| 18:51 | <vagrantc> right
| |
| 18:51 | <alkisg> vs ltsp-update-image --update, which would get the type+size from the file
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| 18:51 | --sync or whatever
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| 18:51 | (rsync)
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| 18:51 | And ltsp-chroot could work with those as well
| |
| 18:51 | <vagrantc> rsync?
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| 18:52 | <alkisg> ltsp-update-image / ==> does the ltsp-pnp thing
| |
| 18:52 | That takes 10 minutes
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| 18:52 | If you just install htop then and want to update it, you can run ltsp-update-image --update
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| 18:52 | <vagrantc> ah right, copying the server's FS to the image
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| 18:52 | <alkisg> Which would run rsync and finish in under a minute
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| 18:52 | <vagrantc> guess you could also do that with an fs image.
| |
| 18:53 | what about: if image already exists, update it with the same type, and if it doesn't exist, do the "sane default" thing ... ?
| |
| 18:53 | <alkisg> Yes, but still creation vs fs image update should be a different parameter
| |
| 18:53 | --update might error with "insufficient space"
| |
| 18:53 | So there should be a way to re-create the image even if it exists
| |
| 18:54 | Or at least a way to expand it
| |
| 18:54 | <vagrantc> where sane default is for conventional ltsp with /opt/ltsp/ARCH you'd make a squashfs image, and speccify --type if you want something different.
| |
| 18:54 | alkisg: so you want to be able to roll back?
| |
| 18:55 | that's going to be limited by filesystem, unless you do a whole image copy.
| |
| 18:55 | <alkisg> No no I want to be able to update the loopback btrfs image from another dir as the source
| |
| 18:55 | <vagrantc> and use btrfs snapshots?
| |
| 18:55 | <alkisg> OK scratch ltsp-pnp, let's make a regular installation as the example
| |
| 18:55 | One creates a fat chroot in /opt/ltsp/i386 normally
| |
| 18:55 | <vagrantc> thanks :)
| |
| 18:55 | then once we know how we want that to work, we can add the other approaches :)
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| 18:56 | <alkisg> Then he runs ltsp-update-image --type=btrfs and gets a /opt/ltsp/images/i386.mg
| |
| 18:56 | img
| |
| 18:56 | <vagrantc> what if it's a she?
| |
| 18:56 | <alkisg> ...
| |
| 18:56 | :D
| |
| 18:56 | Then he updates his chroot in /opt/ltsp/i386
| |
| 18:56 | and he wants to "transfer" the updates to the loopback image
| |
| 18:56 | That's where the rsync helps, to speed up the transfer
| |
| 18:57 | Now you may say that having the /opt/ltsp/i386 dir is not useful in that case,
| |
| 18:57 | but the "source dir" may be a .vdi or .qcow file
| |
| 18:57 | maintained in vbox
| |
| 18:57 | Or an NFS share, maintained in a real client
| |
| 18:57 | So the rsync option would speed things up a lot
| |
| 18:58 | <vagrantc> sure, i can see that.
| |
| 18:59 | <alkisg> Also, the cleanup phase is necessary when exporting "real" images and not chroots, as those have users, passwords etc that need to be removed, and that cleanup phase would be called from ltsp-update-image
| |
| 18:59 | <vagrantc> the current NBD use case, NBD+squashfs with a chroot to build from would remain unchanged?
| |
| 19:00 | (more or less)
| |
| 19:00 | <alkisg> For now of course, but in the future we might want to change the defaults to compressed btrfs + rsync
| |
| 19:00 | Depends on how many people start using fat chroots, which are very large + take a long time to update
| |
| 19:00 | <vagrantc> well, sure. so then i guess --type=squashfs which happens to be the default
| |
| 19:01 | (until it changes)
| |
| 19:01 | <alkisg> Yup
| |
| 19:01 | <vagrantc> so then there might also be --source parameter?
| |
| 19:02 | i.e. --source=/opt/ltsp/i386, --source=/, --source=/foo/bar/image.qcow ?
| |
| 19:02 | <alkisg> If compressed btrfs is e.g. 80% as fast as squashfs, and we handle loopback images pretty well (with ltsp-build-client and ltsp-chroot support and everything), that might help in avoiding the need for some cases with source dirs
| |
| 19:02 | I think the unnamed parameter could be the source
| |
| 19:02 | ltsp-update-image /
| |
| 19:02 | That / is the "source dir or file"
| |
| 19:02 | ltsp-update-image /path/to/qcow
| |
| 19:02 | <vagrantc> unnamed parameters are kind of a nightmare
| |
| 19:02 | <alkisg> We do that currently in ltsp-update-kernels
| |
| 19:02 | * vagrantc would prefer being explicit | |
| 19:03 | <vagrantc> hmmm...
| |
| 19:03 | <alkisg> E.g. ltsp-update-kernels i386 amd64
| |
| 19:03 | <vagrantc> isn't that a recent change ... it used to just do "all the chroots it can find" by default, unless you specified otherwise
| |
| 19:03 | <alkisg> I don't think so, let me check...
| |
| 19:04 | <vagrantc> which is different than options specified without parameters
| |
| 19:04 | * vagrantc wonders how LTSP adds up to 67 | |
| 19:05 | <alkisg> Haha
| |
| 19:05 | ord('L') + ord('T') + ...
| |
| 19:05 | Not ascii ord, alphabetical ord
| |
| 19:07 | <vagrantc> oh yes, ALL_CHROOTS="$@"
| |
| 19:07 | <alkisg> vagrantc: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-trunk/revision/317.2.174
| |
| 19:08 | 2007-03-15
| |
| 19:08 | * vagrantc had nightmares fixing up the qemu-debootstrap wrapper because of debootstrap's implicit commandline ordering | |
| 19:08 | <vagrantc> so i'm just reacting to that
| |
| 19:08 | <alkisg> We use getopt though
| |
| 19:08 | So ordering doesn't matter
| |
| 19:08 | <vagrantc> as long as there's only ever one thing specified without explicit parameters, it's fine.
| |
| 19:09 | <alkisg> I think that one thing should be the source file/dir, yeah
| |
| 19:09 | (files/dirs)
| |
| 19:09 | And if path is omitted, /opt/ltsp/<name> should be assumed
| |
| 19:09 | <vagrantc> although i'd still prefer it to also support an explicit argument... makes for cleaner documentation
| |
| 19:09 | <alkisg> I don't know if we can handle multiple files/dirs then though
| |
| 19:10 | <vagrantc> like "why on earth is / just thrown in at the end? is that a typo?"
| |
| 19:10 | <alkisg> --source=1.vdi --source=2.qcow ?
| |
| 19:10 | <vagrantc> whereas --source=/ makes it a little clearer
| |
| 19:10 | <alkisg> OK, we can support both
| |
| 19:10 | <vagrantc> we don't need to support multiples, do we?
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| 19:10 | <alkisg> ltsp-update-kernels i386 amd64 ?
| |
| 19:11 | <vagrantc> ah, right.
| |
| 19:11 | <alkisg> We currently allow that, but yeah personally I never need it
| |
| 19:11 | <vagrantc> --source=i386,amd64
| |
| 19:11 | ?
| |
| 19:11 | <alkisg> That would work, but people might then think that ltsp-update-kernels i386,amd64 is a valid syntax too
| |
| 19:11 | <vagrantc> right.
| |
| 19:12 | would be nice to keep everything consistant
| |
| 19:12 | <alkisg> On second thought I think we should only support the sources in _one_ of those 2 methods
| |
| 19:12 | Either --source=list, or unnamed parameters, not both
| |
| 19:12 | Both would be hard to document
| |
| 19:13 | <vagrantc> well, the --source at least has some sort of rudimentary readability just from looking at it ...
| |
| 19:13 | <alkisg> And we might _not_ support multiple sources, it might make things harder
| |
| 19:13 | E.g. what about the target?
| |
| 19:13 | --arch=x can specify the target image name
| |
| 19:14 | But one can't use that with multiple sources
| |
| 19:14 | <vagrantc> right
| |
| 19:14 | you couldn't specify both source and target sanely with multiples
| |
| 19:14 | <alkisg> so, ltsp-update-kernels --source=i386 ? ltsp-update-image --source=/path/to/vdi --arch=myfatimage ?
| |
| 19:15 | Or unnamed, ltsp-update-kernels i386, ltsp-update-image --arch=myfatimage /path/to/vdi ?
| |
| 19:15 | <vagrantc> we've kind of overloaded the meaning of --arch :(
| |
| 19:16 | <alkisg> Yeah, but people do that, --arch=fati386 has a lot of google hits
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| 19:16 | <vagrantc> i know
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| 19:16 | <alkisg> I wouldn't mind using a different parameter name for that
| |
| 19:16 | <vagrantc> is it worth "fixing"
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| 19:16 | <alkisg> +1
| |
| 19:16 | :)
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| 19:16 | --source, --target ?
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| 19:16 | <vagrantc> seems sane.
| |
| 19:16 | or --source --image ?
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| 19:17 | <alkisg> And when the path is omitted, /opt/ltsp would be assumed
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| 19:17 | and /opt/ltsp/images for the target
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| 19:17 | or image, yeah
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| 19:18 | And target would default to <arch>, as it does now
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| 19:18 | so, ltsp-update-image --source=/ or --source=i386 or completely omitted if only 1 chroot exists
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| 19:19 | Btw by only supporting one source we also make --type and --size etc saner
| |
| 19:20 | Otherwise we couldn't specify multiple types, sources, targets etc
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| 19:28 | <zamba> how does edubuntu combine with ltsp?
| |
| 19:29 | or.. i've just tested edubuntu 12.04 and find that gnome classic desktop session there is just the desktop session i've missed from the latest version of ubuntu..
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| 19:29 | so this is maybe a more ubuntu-specific question: how do i tweak ubuntu into getting the same desktop experience as edubuntu's gnome classic?
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| 19:30 | is "gnome shell" the package i need to install?
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| 19:37 | <vagrantc> zamba: you've an edubuntu server with LTSP? should just use whatever edubuntu "normally" uses
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| 19:38 | although i've heard a number of issues around the detection of fallback stuff in ubuntu in general
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| 19:38 | <zamba> gnome-session-fallback is the package i need, apparantly :)
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| 19:38 | i'll try now
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| 19:38 | oh yes!
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| 19:38 | productivity! i welcome you back!
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| 19:39 | and finally it looks and feel the way it should
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| 19:40 | <alkisg> !gnome-classic
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| 19:55 | <vagrantc> what i think alkisg meant to say was:
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| 19:55 | !gnome-classic
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| 19:55 | <ltsp`> vagrantc: gnome-classic: To select gnome-classic as your default session, put this line in your lts.conf: LDM_SESSION="gnome-session --session=gnome-classic"
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| 19:55 | <vagrantc> !tell
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| 19:55 | <ltsp`> vagrantc: (tell <nick> <text>) -- Tells the <nick> whatever <text> is. Use nested commands to your benefit here.
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| 20:12 | <mmetzger> ~.
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| 21:45 | <alkisg> !gnome-classic
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| 21:45 | <ltsp`> alkisg: gnome-classic: To select gnome-classic as your default session, put this line in your lts.conf: LDM_SESSION="gnome-session --session=gnome-classic"
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