IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 8 November 2011 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:38 | <quietone> Sound is not working on any thin client. Can someone point me to something to read to help fix this?
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| 04:08 | <mik2> alkisg: I could KISS you! Adding X_HORZSYNC and the refresh rate improved the resolution on those problem machines.
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| 04:08 | Thanks so much!
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| 08:43 | <pingufan> Hi, I want to start some little scripts in the background of a client when it starts up, without giving the user the feature of running local apps by himself. Is this possible in general?
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| 09:08 | <Hyperbyte> pingufan, sure. You can disable LOCAL_APPS in lts.conf I think and you can use RC_FILE to launch scripts on the client.
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| 09:08 | !lts.conf
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| 09:08 | <ltsp> Hyperbyte: lts.conf: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf
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| 09:20 | <pingufan> Where is the rc-file stored?
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| 09:28 | <alkisg> The man page mentions the path...
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| 10:35 | <tyrael2210> hello everyone, i am experiencing some problem installing ltsp on ubuntu
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| 10:36 | after install/build image the client gave me the error tftp timeout
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| 10:36 | so i tried to reboot the pc
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| 10:37 | and now dhcp is not working
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| 10:37 | can someone help me durig the first client start?
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| 10:37 | Thanks anyway and sorry 4 my bad englis
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| 10:38 | h
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| 10:40 | please, is five days right now that i'm stuck with ltsp
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| 10:52 | <tyrael2210> no one can help me?
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| 11:15 | <tyrael2210> is there anyone around here?
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| 11:56 | <alkisg> !tftp | echo tyrael2210:
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| 11:56 | <ltsp> tyrael2210: tftp: Here's a page to help you troubleshoot TFTP problems in Ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/Troubleshooting/TFTP
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| 11:57 | <tyrael2210> how can i create new account for ltsp client?
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| 11:58 | <alkisg> You can use any user account on the server
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| 11:58 | I.e. you don't create special "ltsp user accounts", you just go to users-admin on the server and create normal users
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| 12:06 | <tyrael2210> where is users-admin?
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| 12:09 | <alkisg> In the system > users menu. If you can't find it, just run the command from the console.
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| 12:13 | <tyrael2210> users-admin is not installed by default on 11.10, i have to download it, but i have some problems editing /etc/network/interfaces
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| 12:13 | <alkisg> tyrael2210: then use whatever tool is there in 11.10 for user account creation
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| 12:14 | Creating users on the server is not LTSP specific; if you can't find the tool, just google it or ask in #ubuntu
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| 12:14 | What problem with /etc/network/interfaces? You may also use network-manager to setup a connection...
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| 12:15 | <tyrael2210> network-manager not working properly on ubuntu 11.10
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| 12:15 | <alkisg> Why? Any links to bug reports?
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| 12:15 | <tyrael2210> #ubuntu chan told me to edit etc/network/interfaces
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| 12:17 | unable to manage is the error i get using graphical interface to edit connections
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| 12:18 | <alkisg> tyrael2210: don't use both /etc/network/interfaces AND network-manager
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| 12:18 | If you want to use network-manager, remove the "eth1" declaration from you /etc/network/interfaces, and restart your server
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| 12:18 | Selecting between /etc/network/interfaces or network-manager is a matter of personal preference
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| 12:19 | Some people don't trust nm because in the past it had various problems, but it's been mostly stable for a few years now
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| 12:19 | <andygraybeal> morninigng
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| 12:20 | <alkisg> Hey andy
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| 12:34 | <andygraybeal> hows greece doing?
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| 12:36 | <alkisg> Nothing like $HOME :)
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| 12:36 | <tyrael2210> ok, i solved ethernet issues, i created an account on users-admin
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| 12:37 | i start the client and i get the login page, i try to login with user/password of the new account
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| 12:37 | than appears "answer from the server, reboot"
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| 12:38 | than the screen becomes black and i am back to login page
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| 12:38 | <alkisg> That might mean that you need to update your ssh keys
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| 12:38 | !ltsp-update-sshkeys
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| 12:38 | <ltsp> alkisg: ltsp-update-sshkeys: If you changed your server IP, you need to run ltsp-update-sshkeys, and if you're using NBD (Ubuntu) you also need ltsp-update-image afterwards
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| 12:38 | <alkisg> So, try the above 2 commands
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| 12:39 | sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys && sudo ltsp-update-image
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| 12:49 | <tyrael2210> perfect! thanks a lot, now i have a desktop on the client finally
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| 12:50 | last question, how can i share with the client applications i have installed on the server?
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| 12:50 | <alkisg> The client session runs on the server
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| 12:51 | So any applications you run on the server are automatically there on clients too
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| 12:52 | <tyrael2210> what you mean?if for example i want to open firefox on the client?
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| 12:54 | <alkisg> You just click on firefox
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| 12:54 | It should already be there
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| 12:54 | Didn't you get a complete gnome session with menus and everything when you logged in on the client?
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| 12:56 | <tyrael2210> no, i have only a menubar on top that allows me only to browse the home folder
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| 12:56 | <alkisg> Do you have the ubuntu-desktop package installed on your ltsp server?
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| 12:58 | <tyrael2210> yes
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| 12:59 | <alkisg> It may have something to do with the default sessions in oneiric
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| 12:59 | <alkisg> E.g. maybe unity-3d doesn't work on your hardware, and some fallback is used
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| 12:59 | Try unity-2d or gnome-session-fallback
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| 12:59 | Install those packages on your server
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| 12:59 | Then on the client open a gnome-terminal and type: unity-2d
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| 13:01 | <tyrael2210> i am installing gnome-session-fallback
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| 13:02 | now i reboot the client
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| 13:02 | <alkisg> No need
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| 13:02 | That doesn't change the default session
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| 13:03 | You'll still need to try running it manually after logon
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| 13:03 | If it works you can then set LDM_SESSION in lts.conf
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| 13:04 | <tyrael2210> yes it works
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| 13:05 | now to make it start gnome session by default do i have to edit lts.conf?
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| 13:05 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 13:06 | <tyrael2210> path?
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| 13:06 | <alkisg> It's in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf, create it if it doesn't exist
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| 13:06 | !lts.conf
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| 13:06 | <ltsp> alkisg: lts.conf: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf
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| 13:06 | <markit> hi, the Ubuntu trend torward "the market" and the bethrade of our community is pushing me to change distro for the future, is LTSP supported well in any other distro? Like Fedora?
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| 13:07 | <markit> hi alkisg :) alive and kicking as usual :)
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| 13:07 | <alkisg> markit: the next best supported distro is Debian
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| 13:07 | And it should be very familiar to an Ubuntu user
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| 13:07 | (epoptes already in debian/experimental ;))
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| 13:07 | <markit> I use debian on my computers, except for laptop and ltsp, so I'll feel at home there, BUT
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| 13:08 | I use "unstable" to have updated packages, something I would not to use at schools
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| 13:08 | <alkisg> Why? Do you think that fedora is more stable than that? :D
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| 13:08 | <markit> but seems to me to recall that red hat/fedora had something with ltsp
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| 13:08 | <alkisg> Yes, fedora has ltsp
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| 13:08 | It has been unmaintained for years
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| 13:08 | Causing fedora users to switch to ubuntu
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| 13:09 | <markit> alkisg: well, I'm on "unstable" and very happy, but updates sometime breaks the system
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| 13:09 | ah, very sad :(
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| 13:09 | <alkisg> Recently warren started maintaining it again
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| 13:09 | But he said that it'd only work on one version, as fedora doesn't want to support the technologies that ltsp needs
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| 13:09 | So you should be able to find some beta version that _might_ work
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| 13:10 | <markit> (btw, aptitude search epoptes in this unstable 64 bit debian sid gives no result)
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| 13:10 | <tyrael2210> ok, i created lts.conf in that path
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| 13:10 | <alkisg> markit: experimental, not unstable
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| 13:10 | <tyrael2210> what do i have to write in that?
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| 13:10 | <markit> alkisg: oh, sorry
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| 13:10 | <alkisg> markit: also, what software would you need from unstable in a school? Wouldn't stable + backports + maybe something from testing be enough?
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| 13:10 | <pmatulis> using 'buntu 11.10. when a client logs in the background remains the login screen. any hints what may be going on?
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| 13:11 | <markit> alkisg: mainly KDE desktop (even in unstable we are still at 4.6.5) and libreoffice
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| 13:11 | <alkisg> markit: in Ubuntu, I'm using LTS releases only for schools, so that's old software too, teachers + students don't seem to mind
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| 13:11 | <markit> alkisg: and epoptes... I have it in ubuntu since some months
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| 13:11 | ;P
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| 13:11 | <alkisg> :D
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| 13:11 | markit: and those are not available in testing?
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| 13:11 | <markit> alkisg: I've to change my aproach to "up to date software", sure you are right
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| 13:12 | alkisg: never tried testing, I should check
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| 13:12 | <alkisg> I'm not a frequent debian user, but I believe "testing" is much more recommented than "unstable"
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| 13:12 | And it should have reasonable new software
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| 13:12 | So anyway, what's your problem with Ubuntu, specifically?
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| 13:12 | <markit> alkisg: I'll have a look
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| 13:13 | alkisg: you know I'm a Free software beliver and activist, and also I own an android phone
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| 13:13 | the thing that puzzled me a lot with androind is taht you have "the market" and no distinction among Free and Proprietary programs
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| 13:13 | when you look for a program
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| 13:13 | (you should download and carefully check the license)
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| 13:13 | I've installed Ubuntu (Unity) on second boot of my children PC
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| 13:14 | just to have a look
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| 13:14 | and their recent package management (don't recall it's name)
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| 13:14 | seem to work like that
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| 13:14 | with "Gratis" (no price) label well on evicence
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| 13:14 | and at the bottom "Open source" even for GPL programs (that are Free / Libre)
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| 13:14 | <alkisg> If you're looking for a distro that focuses on free software only, then I don't think any of the famous distros will do for you (ubuntu, debian, fedora, opensuse etc). You'd need something like gnewsense.
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| 13:15 | And of course teachers won't appreciate the low quality + instability :)
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| 13:15 | (as you remember from the nvidia drivers problem :))
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| 13:15 | <markit> alkisg: you know, is a matter of how you do things
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| 13:15 | one thing is telling "this is much better, preserves your freedom, if you are desperate you can use, temporary, this proprietary program if forced"
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| 13:16 | the other is "I'm on FOSS, and belive me, just pick up what you want, don't care about license and your freedom"
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| 13:16 | this is THE POINT
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| 13:16 | I'm raising
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| 13:16 | <alkisg> markit: remember, you're trying to put free software in schools
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| 13:16 | Not in your home pc
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| 13:16 | <markit> exactly
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| 13:16 | <alkisg> So if something doesn't work for teachers, they'll just tell you "I want to switch back to windows"
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| 13:16 | <markit> that makes it much more important, OMHO
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| 13:16 | <alkisg> They don't care about your points
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| 13:17 | <markit> I'll make it work IF forced with some proprietary piece (like flash)
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| 13:17 | but, as stated, don't want a system that makes the user dumb again
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| 13:17 | <alkisg> What do you mean "dumb"?
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| 13:17 | <Hyperbyte> I think Fedora would suit you, markit. They specifically don't include things like proprietary MP3 codecs, flash players, etc, in their OS.
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| 13:17 | <markit> and pust all proprietary program "a click matter" and does not valorize FOSS goals
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| 13:18 | Hyperbyte: debian also
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| 13:18 | <alkisg> No, but it makes systems work and teachers happy
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| 13:18 | <Hyperbyte> Fedora won't play flash movies out of the box, nor MP3 files, and you can't install those via the package manager either.
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| 13:18 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: that's true for ubuntu too
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| 13:18 | And fedora uses proprietary firmware in their kernels too, by default, afaik
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| 13:18 | <markit> alkisg: but if they dont' value freedom better stay with windows, I can't think a reason I should waste my time then
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| 13:18 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, you sure? My Ubuntu plays MP3 files and I didn't install a third-party package for it.
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| 13:18 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: there's a checkbox in the installation, "use mp3 proprietary software", did you check it?
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| 13:19 | <markit> Hyperbyte: this is another Ubuntu damage
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| 13:19 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, no, there's no proprietary drivers in Fedora kernel.
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| 13:19 | <alkisg> firmware, not drivers
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| 13:19 | <markit> Hyperbyte: they mix the problem of Free software that can't be distributed in some countries due to Patenst with Propreitary software
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| 13:19 | Hyperbyte: so you can have Free software to play dvd and MP3
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| 13:19 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, ah, in that case... yes, I did check that, because I care more about the user experience than argument. =D
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| 13:19 | <markit> but they mix it with "proprietari" repositories
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| 13:19 | <Hyperbyte> *this argument
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| 13:20 | <alkisg> Right :)
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| 13:20 | Once free software has something that fits my needs, I usually switch to that
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| 13:20 | <markit> well, again, me too prefer a working system than one that can't turn on
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| 13:20 | <alkisg> But if there's no free software equivalent, I don't want to lose some functionality just to be able to say that I only use free software
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| 13:20 | <markit> BUT don't want something that USES free software just to promote "a different OS" that is almost proprietary
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| 13:20 | <Hyperbyte> markit, perhaps this interests you: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Forbidden_items
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| 13:20 | <markit> like Android is
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| 13:21 | <alkisg> markit: in the fsf site they have a list of distros that use properietary software by default
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| 13:21 | All of the famous distros do
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| 13:21 | The most famous that doesn't, is gnewsense
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| 13:21 | Let me see if I can find the link again...
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| 13:21 | <markit> alkisg: you seem to ignore what I say :)
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| 13:22 | <alkisg> markit: you say that you prefer fedora over ubuntu because it values more the user freedom, right?
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| 13:22 | <markit> Hyperbyte: seems that fedora is not strong in ltsp, and I need ltsp
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| 13:22 | alkisg: no, I said that I need to switch to some other distro
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| 13:22 | and seemd to remember that fedora was strong in ltsp
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| 13:22 | but you tell me is not
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| 13:22 | <Hyperbyte> markit, Fedora does have a working LTSP implementation. But if you want a strong LTSP implementation with lots of support, then you need to suck it up and get Ubuntu. ;-)
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| 13:22 | <markit> and the main point is not have a 100% foss
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| 13:23 | can't be a succesfull deploy at school, as you know and tell me often
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| 13:23 | but I want some distro that, like debian, VALUE freedom a lot
| |
| 13:23 | so debian will be my first choice for ltsp and deploy
| |
| 13:23 | BUT was asking if there is also some other distro that has these requisites
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| 13:23 | and maybe more recent/frequent releases
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| 13:24 | <Hyperbyte> markit, and I gave you your answer. Fedora. Glad I could help. :)
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| 13:24 | <alkisg> And I tried to answer that question as best as I could.
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| 13:24 | <alkisg> Debian is a good choice, but I still didn't understand why you think Ubuntu doesn't value freedom.
| |
| 13:24 | <markit> alkisg: because of their "market", and their tendencies to "shield" users from that "bad stuff like freedom"
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| 13:24 | i.e. on homepage of Ubuntu tehre is skype
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| 13:25 | <alkisg> and their tendencies to "shield" users from that "bad stuff like freedom" => I haven't seen such a tendency
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| 13:25 | The opposite, I think that they try to use free software wherever possible
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| 13:25 | <markit> or they prompt you to install "restricted drivers" even if foss ones (AMD video drivers) work fine on my system
| |
| 13:25 | etc
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| 13:25 | <alkisg> If that wasn't the case, they'd ship nvidia drivers and flash by default on the cd
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| 13:25 | <markit> alkisg: they can't for license problems
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| 13:25 | <alkisg> They can
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| 13:26 | It's easy to get an adobe agreement for flash
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| 13:26 | <markit> you can't distribute FOSS and proprietary, AFAIK
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| 13:26 | <alkisg> And the same is true for nvidia, you can just make a redistribution agreement
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| 13:26 | I think the main stopper is policy
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| 13:26 | As ubuntu still prefers free software
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| 13:27 | <markit> at the moment
| |
| 13:27 | <alkisg> I don't know why you think they won't do that in the future
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| 13:27 | <markit> because you see, they are pushing for a proprietary market
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| 13:27 | <alkisg> I haven't seen such a tendency, and I was there at UDS last week, speaking with many ubuntu devs
| |
| 13:27 | <markit> because they don't mind much, just "prefer", and because I knwo how android ecosystem works
| |
| 13:27 | <alkisg> OK, I can't change your view of Ubuntu. I just don't see it and I don't share your thoughts.
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| 13:28 | <markit> alkisg: well, have a look at ubuntu forums, they never even think about freedom in their comments
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| 13:28 | <Hyperbyte> markit, that's because end-users don't care about freedom. They want a system that works.
| |
| 13:28 | <alkisg> I don't think many ubuntu devs participate at the forums, maybe you mean the users?
| |
| 13:28 | <markit> yep, users, that have been "educated" by that distro
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| 13:28 | Hyperbyte: if so, better use Windows or MacOS, no?
| |
| 13:29 | <Hyperbyte> markit, why?
| |
| 13:29 | <markit> Hyperbyte: almost all of M$ users I know have cracked copies of their software
| |
| 13:29 | and so they don't have to pay and have a huge amouunt of software
| |
| 13:29 | and they are "cool" because they have a 1.400$ photoshop on their system
| |
| 13:29 | <alkisg> (03:28:34 μμ) markit: yep, users, that have been "educated" by that distro => OK as I said I don't feel that, and I don't share your view. Anyway, I don't care much about non-technical conversations, /me goes back in developement...
| |
| 13:29 | <markit> (in fact, many Ubuntu users are screaming because they want Photoshop... wondering how much, in any case, they are willing to pay for it)
| |
| 13:30 | alkisg: well, is a conversation, I care about your opinion even when I don't share it
| |
| 13:30 | so please don't take it wrong
| |
| 13:31 | <Hyperbyte> markit, you need to learn to seperate interests a little. I prefer Linux because it's open source and cool (IT point of view), my boss prefers it because it saves him money (manager point of view) and users don't care either way, as long as it works (users point of view)
| |
| 13:31 | <markit> Hyperbyte: I'm putting LTSP in schools because I care about freedom and want children to learn to care too
| |
| 13:32 | <Hyperbyte> You can't say an OS or distro needs to "educate" users... because that doesn't work. Windows has been educating users to not pirate the OS for years, and as you've pointed out, most end users at home have an illegal copy.
| |
| 13:32 | <markit> so is pointless for me give them an "experience" that puts them torward proprietary (even if different os based) experience
| |
| 13:32 | just I've many better ways to spend my time
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| 13:32 | and windows likes pirated copies
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| 13:32 | <Hyperbyte> markit, get it through your skull please: users do not know and do not care about your proprietary vs. freedom argument.
| |
| 13:32 | <markit> they have made it succeed
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| 13:33 | <Hyperbyte> They only care about their experience. And rightfully so, because the last thing I need is my users asking why I'm running Ubuntu and not Fedora.
| |
| 13:33 | <markit> Hyperbyte: children don't even know how to read and write, but they are educated on that
| |
| 13:34 | that is why I think schools is of paramount importance for FOSS future
| |
| 13:34 | but if you surrender to that, just leave them with windows
| |
| 13:34 | don't see the points of switch to GNU... you do? money?
| |
| 13:34 | <Hyperbyte> markit, yes, to educate children that open source / free software can give a good user experience as well, that you don't need proprietary software to have a good experience.
| |
| 13:34 | <markit> don't want they save money with my time
| |
| 13:35 | <alkisg> markit: would you prefer it if kids around you used android or ms based phones? Or you wouldn't care either way?
| |
| 13:35 | <markit> Hyperbyte: but if you don't tell them that is Free, they just see a "different UI" no education then
| |
| 13:35 | alkisg: is the same, it's proprietary for them as well
| |
| 13:36 | why should make a difference? they will switch to iPhone6 when will arrive
| |
| 13:36 | <alkisg> Well, I would prefer for them to use android, because that gives power to *some* floss projects like linux
| |
| 13:36 | <markit> with it's shinning new programs
| |
| 13:36 | alkisg: but if they don't know and mind about foss, what is the point? your proud?
| |
| 13:36 | <alkisg> And java, etc etc
| |
| 13:36 | <Hyperbyte> You need to be a software or system developer to fully understand the argument of free vs. proprietary software. Let alone care about it.
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| 13:36 | <alkisg> markit: no, but linux continues to live + expand
| |
| 13:37 | So maybe in a couple of decades we can end up with a truly floss phone
| |
| 13:37 | While if we stop using linux because there's no true floss phone around, and linux dies, hope dies too
| |
| 13:37 | <markit> Hyperbyte: Free vs proprietary is user's main problem not programmer one, that's why we (I) need to educate users
| |
| 13:37 | alkisg: we already talked in the past, and the conclusion is that is good to have foss spread
| |
| 13:37 | <alkisg> We can't just magically reach a point where users are satisfied with floss OSes. They're just not "there" yet
| |
| 13:37 | <markit> BUT
| |
| 13:37 | you seem to ignore that is of paramount importance to have peopoe aware of Freedom
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| 13:38 | <alkisg> But we can use them + help them until that is possible, in the future
| |
| 13:38 | <Hyperbyte> markit, no, users' main problem is that the GIMP interface sucks and that they need to spend money on Photoshop. THAT is a problem. Users don't care how GIMP or open source is licensed.
| |
| 13:38 | <markit> Hyperbyte: ok, then will you spend time to install them GIMP? Not me
| |
| 13:38 | <alkisg> markit: no, I don't ignore it. I believe that pushing Ubuntu in 250 schools made more people aware of software freedom, than if I tried to push. e.g. gnewsense and only managed 10 schools to use it.
| |
| 13:39 | <markit> Hyperbyte: they will find a "clever friend" that gives them a cracked copy of photoshop
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| 13:39 | so or users are awarea and apreciate, or my work on foss for them is pointless
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| 13:39 | <Hyperbyte> markit, why are you talking about users as if they're kids?
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| 13:39 | <markit> my users are kids, lol
| |
| 13:40 | in any case, what do you mean?
| |
| 13:40 | <alkisg> People *first* care about having a software that works for them, and *if* they get that, they can then start learning about software freedom. If you push something that "well mostly works but you need to compromise on that and that" will make them lose the whole floss point.
| |
| 13:40 | <Hyperbyte> I have a license for Photoshop here... in fact, the whole CS3 suite from Adobe. Paid for it and have it installed on a computer. I don't feel guilty about it one second. There's no good open source alternative for the suite.
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| 13:40 | <markit> alkisg: I AGREE
| |
| 13:40 | <Hyperbyte> And I don't care either way, as long as it works.
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| 13:40 | <markit> alkisg: but this does not mean that you don't have to push FOSS message STRONG, right?
| |
| 13:41 | <alkisg> markit: sure, and I think Ubuntu is very strong on pushing the floss message
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| 13:41 | <markit> and if you can choose among one that tells "FOSS freedom is not important, don't care, click here with "gratis" label"
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| 13:41 | <alkisg> It's even stronger that what I'd like it to
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| 13:41 | <markit> and another that tells "FOSS and freedom IS important" what will be your choice?
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| 13:41 | <alkisg> I'd prefer flash + nvidia drivers to be in the CD, preinstalled.
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| 13:42 | <markit> alkisg: I'll check, but I think that GPL distribution licenses forbids that
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| 13:42 | <alkisg> There already is properietary software in most distro CDs
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| 13:42 | For kernel modules
| |
| 13:42 | * alkisg searches for that fsf page... | |
| 13:42 | <markit> alkisg: mmm don't know with debian you have to activate a special repo
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| 13:43 | <markit> I remember SuSE had Yast that is proprietary, though... so I could be wrong
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| 13:43 | <alkisg> markit: http://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html
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| 13:44 | Not endorsed distros that already ship properietary software: Arch, Centos, Debian, Fedora, Gentoo, Mandriva, Opensuse, Ubuntu, ...
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| 13:44 | And the free ones: http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html
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| 13:45 | <markit> yep, but here seems that is LIGAL distribute with proprietary software, just not good
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| 13:45 | I, but can be wrong, remember that was not legal
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| 13:46 | I mean, have GPL and non GPL on the same CD/system instalation
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| 13:46 | <alkisg> I disagree, I believe it's good to ship proprietary software until there's a good enough floss equivalent
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| 13:46 | <markit> alkisg: yep, I know your point, but consider also that
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| 13:46 | <alkisg> And that's what all distros do already, just on a lower level than what I'd like
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| 13:46 | <alkisg> *almost all...
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| 13:46 | <markit> if you have a proprietary sw you reduce the need of a free one
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| 13:47 | <markit> so the balance of the two needs is not that simple
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| 13:47 | and, and this is my point, the goal should be to have user's informed about the issue
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| 13:47 | while ubuntu tends, OMHO, to hide
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| 13:47 | and ignore the issue for users
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| 13:48 | I'm sure 99% of ubuntu users have no clear ideas about Freedom
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| 13:48 | <alkisg> I don't think the users need to be informed about any case where floss is just not "there" yet. It's too technical for them.
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| 13:48 | <markit> and will never help with donations foss projects for instances if a proprietary "gratis" one is available
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| 13:48 | alkisg: foss is an ethical and political problem, not techincal
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| 13:48 | <alkisg> And I don't think nouveau will stop being developed if the nvidia drivers were preinstalled in the cd
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| 13:49 | Telling a user about NTFS is technical
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| 13:49 | <markit> who knows about nouveau if you have NVIDIA since beginning?
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| 13:49 | <alkisg> Why should users know about file systems?
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| 13:49 | <markit> no one I guess
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| 13:49 | <alkisg> They should just know about floss in general
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| 13:49 | Not particular apps that don't work because there's no good floss equivalent
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| 13:50 | <markit> well, they should be aware of FOSS and that, as consequence, that particular program is not and so is a problem
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| 13:50 | i.e. I'm not happy to have any singular proprietary program on my system, my security is doomed
| |
| 13:50 | is like having "just a pari of viruses" on your system
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| 13:50 | "but most is virus free!" :)
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| 13:51 | s/pari/pair
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| 13:51 | * Hyperbyte coughs | |
| 13:51 | <alkisg> markit: I'm pretty sure you *don't know* all the proprietary software in *your* system
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| 13:51 | <Hyperbyte> So alkisg, how's the weather in Greece?
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| 13:51 | <alkisg> And you say that kids should know it ?
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| 13:51 | Yeah let's change the topic :D
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| 13:51 | <markit> alkisg: I say they should be aware of the principles, and see that program X is against their freedom
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| 13:52 | <Hyperbyte> This is a neverending discussion
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| 13:52 | <markit> like have OGM fruit on the desk
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| 13:52 | I want to know :)
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| 13:52 | Hyperbyte: well, we all know it
| |
| 13:52 | but I find these discussions with bright and polite people interesting
| |
| 13:52 | that helps me see more points of view
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| 13:53 | and try to fight "real issues"
| |
| 13:53 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: it's good; but I was impressed with the weather a few days back, when we travelled from Maine (=snow) to Florida (=sunshine, only a t-shirt needed)... /me tries to map their geographical locations to some european locations to better understand why...
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| 13:53 | <Hyperbyte> markit, you have alkisg and mine... we care more about user experience... First it has to work, then it can be free.
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| 13:53 | Let's drop it now. :)
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| 13:53 | alkisg, it's pretty hot here for the time of year.
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| 13:54 | <Hyperbyte> 15 degrees celcius... in november!
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| 13:54 | <markit> lol, better weather conversation than freedom, stunning :)
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| 13:54 | <Hyperbyte> Some weather analists are predicting the winter is gonna be bonkers mad cold... since we're having such a mild autumn.
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| 13:55 | <markit> alkisg: btw, I've seen you droppen vinage in epoptes
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| 13:55 | is because of the "connection bug"?
| |
| 13:56 | or there are other advantages as well with the new client?
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| 13:56 | <alkisg> markit: no, it's because it doesn't work at all in debian testing
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| 13:56 | <markit> ah!
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| 13:56 | <alkisg> (reverse connections, not the whole vinagre)
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| 13:56 | And Ubuntu Precise will probably stop shipping it by default anyway
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| 13:56 | <markit> alkisg: btw, OMHO you should have a python constant for the name of the program
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| 13:57 | I've seen it "hard coded" instead
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| 13:57 | <alkisg> What program?
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| 13:57 | vinagre?
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| 13:57 | <markit> the new client Idontrememberitsname
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| 13:57 | let me check
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| 13:57 | <alkisg> Each program needs a different command line, so it doesn't make sense to allow the user to select arbitrary programs
| |
| 13:57 | And also not all programs provide the functionality we need
| |
| 13:58 | E.g. remmina, the client that will probably be the default in Ubuntu Precise, doesn't yet support multiple reverse connections, I made a feature request for that.
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| 13:58 | <markit> yep, is just easier to find later in the code
| |
| 13:58 | if you have a program called "pr" a grep is pointless
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| 13:58 | if is POINTER_RECORDER
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| 13:59 | is easier to spot
| |
| 13:59 | self.vncviewer = subprocess.Popen(['xvnc4viewer', '-listen'])
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| 13:59 | etc.
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| 13:59 | but just a general suggestion, maybe not the brigter one :)
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| 14:00 | <alkisg> markit: grep -rw pr => search for whole words
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| 14:00 | <markit> lol, never argue with a guru
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| 14:00 | <alkisg> Haha
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| 14:01 | <pscheie_> good morning all
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| 14:01 | pscheie_ is now known as pscheie | |
| 14:02 | <alkisg> Hey pscheie
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| 14:04 | <mgariepy> good morning everyone
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| 14:05 | <alkisg> Good morning mgariepy. Wow, Orlando is lower than Cairo...!!! That's why it was so hot there!
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| 14:07 | <mgariepy> alkisg, are you back in greece ?
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| 14:07 | <alkisg> Yup, finally!!!
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| 14:07 | <mgariepy> great, didn't had too much trouble getting back ?
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| 14:08 | <markit> urgh, just received an email from the guy that packaged Sankoré program for ubuntu (unofficial), he will stop doing that because has no time :(
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| 14:09 | <alkisg> mgariepy: well the people at Delta couldn't find my reservation, and my trip was 40h, but nah, thankfully no real trouble
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| 14:09 | <markit> alkisg: since you have a lot of ubuntu/debian dev friends, ehm, are them aware of sankoré project and willing to include? :)
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| 14:09 | <mgariepy> ouch 40h that's a &^@#$ long trip
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| 14:09 | <alkisg> markit: why? You'll stop using Ubuntu anyway, right? :D
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| 14:09 | <markit> alkisg: yep, not so fast, I've some 11.04 installs around (3)
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| 14:10 | and as you can see, I've wrote also "debian" ;P
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| 14:10 | <markit> (in reversed order of importance, lol ;))
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| 14:10 | <pscheie> hey alkisg
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| 14:10 | <markit> Italian government has wasted a lot of money with that "smartboards", sigh
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| 14:11 | <pscheie> alkisg, I can't get step #1 of installing epoptes to work, importing the key
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| 14:12 | <alkisg> pscheie: you're having problems importing the key? Did you try `epoptes-client -c server` ?
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| 14:12 | <garymc> Ive broke the GUI when I tried to change passwords in amportal.conf and manager.conf
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| 14:12 | <garymc> i now get a retrieve_conf failed message
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| 14:12 | IN GUI
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| 14:12 | anyine help me out here or am I doing a fresh install?
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| 14:13 | wrong room
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| 14:14 | <alkisg> Yeah :)
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| 14:17 | <pscheie> alkisg, no, I haven't even installed the packages yet.
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| 14:18 | I thought the key needed to be imported first so apt can verify the package.
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| 14:18 | <alkisg> Aaah
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| 14:19 | There's a ppa key, and there's the epoptes server certificate, I thought you were talking about the later :D
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| 14:19 | pscheie: so you're talking about an Ubuntu machine?
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| 14:19 | <pscheie> yes
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| 14:19 | sorry, should have been more clear.
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| 14:19 | <alkisg> OK can you give me the commands + their output?
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| 14:19 | (the commands from the wiki)
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| 14:19 | <pscheie> The LTSP server we use as Free Geek Twin Cities (Minneapolis) is Ubuntu
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| 14:20 | <alkisg> http://www.epoptes.org/installation
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| 14:20 | <pscheie> Right, that's the page I'm following.
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| 14:20 | <alkisg> Try them all, and pastebin the errors
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| 14:21 | <pscheie> alkisg, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/732046/
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| 14:21 | I can resolve keyserver.ubuntu.com, I just can't seem to talk to it.
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| 14:22 | <alkisg> Can you ping it?
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| 14:22 | What's its ip?
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| 14:22 | <pscheie> 91.189.89.49
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| 14:22 | <alkisg> That's what I have too, it replies to pings for me
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| 14:22 | <pscheie> ping fails, too.
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| 14:23 | hmm, ok, maybe I have a router problem
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| 14:23 | yes, that must be it. I can't ping google either.
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| 14:24 | <pscheie> Probably not a coincidence: Trying to set the upstream NIC to be available for all users via NetworkManager is broken in 10.4 apparently.
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| 14:24 | Doing so removes the connection.
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| 14:24 | <alkisg> pscheie: what do you have in /etc/network/interfaces?
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| 14:25 | <pscheie> interfaces has auto eth0 and auto eth1, but ifconfig shows eth1 and eth2
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| 14:26 | <alkisg> pscheie: due to some bugs, you can either user network-manager OR /etc/network/interfaces
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| 14:26 | <pscheie> ah, I think I see the problem: default route is for eth1, the ltsp interface
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| 14:27 | <markit> pscheie: maybe you changed an hardware nick, in /etc/idev/rules.d/70-persistent-net you could have 3 nics, you can remove that file and reboot
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| 14:27 | <alkisg> pscheie: advice: rm /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules to have eth0/1 get their proper names, and remove the eth0/1 entries from /etc/network/interfaces, and reboot
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| 14:27 | <markit> ifconfig -a maybe shows all 3
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| 14:27 | alkisg: me first ;P
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| 14:28 | <alkisg> markit: hehe but I wrote more stuff :P
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| 14:28 | <markit> alkisg: also more precise (-net.rules), damn ;P
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| 14:28 | never compete with a guru too ;P
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| 14:28 | * markit backs to his sleepy state | |
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| 14:33 | <pscheie> alkisg, yes, it looks like I replaced a NIC at some point
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| 14:33 | I haven't looked at the box in probably a year.
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| 14:37 | <highvoltage> good morning
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| 14:37 | <pscheie> good morning highvoltage
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| 14:38 | <highvoltage> how are you pscheie?
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| 14:38 | <pscheie> I'm good. Are you back in Canada or South Africa?
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| 14:39 | <highvoltage> back in Canada :)
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| 14:39 | (for now)
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| 14:40 | <pscheie> So, you'll be leaving here just as winter arrives and summer appears in SA, right?
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| 14:41 | <highvoltage> exactly.
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| 14:42 | <highvoltage> not that it was specifically planned like that, I mostly just wanted to get around the expensive tickets that you get around xmas time, and also wanted to be there for my birthday in feb. so missing a big part of winter is just a side-effect :)
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| 14:42 | <pscheie> Good timing. It may snow here today.
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| 14:43 | alkisg, does the order of the rules in 70-persistent-net.rules matter?
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| 14:43 | That is, is it okay if eth1 is defined before eth0?
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| 14:44 | <alkisg> pscheie: that file is autogenerated, just delete it and reboot
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| 14:44 | The order doesn't matter
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| 14:44 | <alkisg> And the eth* name shouldn't matter either, if you're not using /etc/network/interfaces
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| 14:46 | <pscheie> rebooting
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| 14:46 | * pscheie crosses fingers | |
| 14:46 | <pscheie> we'll see if I can get back in (the box is remote)
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| 14:47 | <alkisg> Ouch, if you removed /etc/network/interfaces, you'll also need a system connection in network-manager
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| 14:48 | <pscheie> I didn't remove /etc/network/interfaces, just the 70-persistent-net.rules
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| 14:49 | If it fails to come back up, I'll just have to wait until tonight to work on it.
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| 14:49 | <alkisg> Let's hope the names in /etc/network/interfaces match those assigned by udev
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| 14:49 | <markit> alkisg: btw, when I do bonding I prever having eth0 as "mother board" nic, and eth1 and eth2 add on cards to be bonded, so I change 70-persistent-net.rules names (i.e. eth1 -> eth0). Reading dmesg I've seen that
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| 14:49 | <markit> at there is a sort of "on the fly switch" during boot
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| 14:50 | scaring, I thought the name assignment were made "from the first moment"
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| 14:50 | never experienced issued due to this?
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| 14:55 | <pscheie> alkisg, the box came up and I can connect--but the NICs are switched.
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| 14:56 | That is, the 100MB NIC got assigned as eth1 rather than eth0.
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| 14:56 | <alkisg> pscheie: if you need them switched, edit persistent rules manually
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| 14:56 | And reboot again
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| 14:56 | <pscheie> ok, wasn't sure if that would work
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| 14:56 | <alkisg> Just change eth0 to eth1 in that file, and vice versa
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| 14:56 | Yup that's actually the proposed way to do it
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| 14:56 | (and the reason why that file goes in /etc)
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| 14:59 | * pscheie has never been very good at knowing what is static and what is dynamic in udev | |
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| 15:08 | <alkisg> markit: the ethX name assignments happen at initramfs when udev runs the first time, and then at the normal system when udev runs a second time
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| 15:08 | I haven't seen problems related to that, no
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| 15:09 | <markit> alkisg: thanks a lot for the clarification, I seep better now :)
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| 15:11 | <pscheie> alkisg, reboot worked, key is installed
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| 15:12 | although it had two default routes, one for eth1 and one for eth0, such that traffic for the outside world was being directed onto the ltsp link
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| 15:12 | I deleted that and then everything worked
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| 15:13 | <pscheie> but where is that set? I want to disable any default routes pointing back at the ltsp subnet
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| 15:33 | <alkisg> pscheie: don't put a gateway for the ltsp-facing interface
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| 15:34 | <pscheie> alkisg, I don't recall doing so. Where is that set?
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| 15:34 | <alkisg> What do you have in /etc/network/interfaces currently?
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| 15:35 | <pscheie> alkisg, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/732111/
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| 15:36 | <alkisg> pscheie: with that, eth1 shouldn't be directing the traffic to the outside world...
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| 15:36 | Did you fix the route problem manually after reboot?
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| 15:36 | Also, you don't have 192.168.0.x as your eth0 subnet, right?
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| 15:36 | <pscheie> alkisg, yes, I just deleted the default route pointing to eth1
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| 15:37 | There were two default routes, which makes no sense obviously.
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| 15:37 | It may have been a relic from the eth0-eth1/eth1-eth2 mixup.
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| 15:37 | The question is where would that be getting set, so I can remove it permanently.
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| 15:38 | I know how to do so in RHEL/Centos, but it's different on Ubuntu ;-)
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| 15:54 | <markit> pscheie: I've no idea, if you provide a static /etc/network/interfaces, is there to act
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| 15:54 | with network manager I've no clue
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| 15:54 | I use it only on laptop (with one interface ;P)
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| 16:00 | <alkisg> pscheie: I don't know of any places for the default routes other than /etc/network/interfaces, so maybe you put something manually in the past?
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| 16:00 | You're not using network manager, so no point in looking there...
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| 16:03 | <pscheie> I'm always torn between using NM or doing stuff by hand in the config files.
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| 16:04 | I prefer the latter, tends to be faster; but the gui is easier for the other folks
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| 16:05 | * alkisg switched to using/proposing NM since 2 years ago | |
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| 16:18 | <blueonyx> hi, how to install printers on fat clients? i copied some cups config files, so cups recognizes my printers, but gnome not. my ltsp server has no gui, so i cannot install them through the gnome gui. what to do? i'm on 10.04
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| 16:20 | <alkisg> You only need to check "share printers on the network" no the server cups configuration
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| 16:20 | You can get a server UI with a thin client, with ssh -X, or you can use the CUPS web configuration page
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| 16:20 | http://localhost:631 on a thin client
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| 16:23 | <blueonyx> i got fat clients
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| 16:23 | <alkisg> Yes, I was talking about fat clients
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| 16:23 | <blueonyx> and the web interface shows the printers, but the pdf app doesnt
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| 16:23 | <alkisg> You don't need to modify the chroot in any way
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| 16:24 | You only need to expose your server printers to the local network
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| 16:24 | You can boot a fat client as a thin temporarily, if you want to have a server GUI
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| 16:24 | Or you can use ssh -X server firefox
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| 16:25 | <blueonyx> so i should install the printers on my server?
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| 16:25 | <blueonyx> these are network printers btw
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| 16:25 | <alkisg> You can install them on the server and expose them there, yes, but you can also put them in the chroot, if you find a console-based way to do it
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| 16:26 | <blueonyx> i wanted to ask for the console-based way xD
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| 16:26 | <alkisg> No idea, but it's not ltsp specific
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| 16:26 | So you can also ask in your distro's channel
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| 16:27 | <blueonyx> okay, thanks
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| 16:33 | <pscheie> alkisg, do you know the command to call Network Manager?
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| 16:33 | <alkisg> pscheie: do you mean the connection editor?
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| 16:33 | nm-connection-editor
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| 16:36 | <pscheie> yes, that's it.
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| 16:36 | nuts: was hoping to find source of default route being set to the ltsp interface.
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| 16:36 | But I don't see any gateways being set in there.
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| 16:37 | <alkisg> For every ethX interface declared /etc/network/interfaces, network-manager assumes it's "unmanaged" by it, so it doesn't touch it at all
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| 16:38 | <pscheie> Thinking about it, won't the clients need 192.168.0.1 to be the default gw?
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| 16:38 | <alkisg> That's why I said that there's no point in looking at nm configuration, since you're not using it
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| 16:38 | If you have localapps, yes, and you do that from dhpcd.conf
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| 16:38 | (option routers there)
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| 16:38 | <pscheie> Oh, right, everything is on the server (I'm not using local apps)
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| 16:39 | <alkisg> But that's only for the local apps on the thin clients, not for the server itslef
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| 16:42 | <pscheie> alkisg, to make eth0 usable by others, I had to change managed=false to managed=true in the [ifupdown] section of /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf last night.
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| 16:43 | <alkisg> pscheie: if you're using /etc/network/interfaces, you don't need to specify anything at all in network manager
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| 16:43 | So if you had to do something, it was probably due to the unmatched ethX names
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| 16:43 | <pscheie> How do I know if NM is/isn't interfering?
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| 16:44 | <alkisg> Gadi: did you recently put some code to "remember" useful vars from the initramfs? I can't find it, and I'd like to export $DEVICE to the ltsp client session...
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| 16:44 | pscheie: the panel icon shouldn't allow you to edit eth0/eth1 connnections, it should just display "unmanaged"
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| 16:44 | It shouldn't even show your connection state
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| 16:45 | <pscheie> I can't see the panel ATM, just have an ssh session to the server.
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| 16:45 | But I can check it tonight.
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| 16:45 | <alkisg> pscheie: you can run a session with Xephyr or with a vbox thin client etc etc
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| 16:46 | You can also check with nm-tool
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| 16:46 | (console-based)
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| 16:49 | <pscheie> Weird: just noticed eth1 is set to 192.168.0.43, not 192.168.0.254
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| 16:49 | /etc/network/interfaces has the correct address for eth1 (.254); wonder what's changing it.
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| 16:51 | <alkisg> pscheie: btw you didn't answer that question: (05:36:51 μμ) alkisg: Also, you don't have 192.168.0.x as your eth0 subnet, right?
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| 16:52 | <pscheie> nope, eth0 subnet is 172.26.18.0 ATM.
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| 16:52 | Glad you mentioned it, though: I think our main network at FGTC is 192.168.0.0; should see about changing that.
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| 16:52 | But that's a problem for another day.
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| 16:53 | <alkisg> Maybe your problems are indeed caused by network manager. That wouldn't happen with the default installation, but if you modified "managed" in the configuration files, I don't know what the effects would be.
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| 16:53 | <pscheie> As I recall, if I want to use a different subnet for ltsp, it's just a matter of changing the dhcpd.conf, and perhaps lts.conf (?)
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| 16:54 | <alkisg> Why don't you delete all connections at /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections, and reboot?
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| 16:54 | <pscheie> ok, I'll try it.
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| 16:54 | <alkisg> dhcpd and /etc/network/interfaces
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| 16:54 | (move them instead of deleting , just in case)
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| 16:54 | <pscheie> Right, the addy for the interface itself would have to change, too.
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| 16:55 | oh yes, I always do mv rather than rm. ;-)
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| 16:56 | <knipwim> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
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| 16:57 | the ideal thin client!
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| 17:54 | <pscheie> knipwim, just don't order them from http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/312
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| 17:55 | <pscheie> or rather http://www.raspberrypi.ru/
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| 18:06 | <highvoltage> nice.
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| 18:06 | FYI: The status of the ltspfs source package
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| 18:06 | in Debian's testing distribution has changed.
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| 18:06 | Previous version: 0.9-1 Current version: 1.0-1
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| 19:07 | <alkisg> vagrantc, Gadi, don't we have some overlapping now with ltsp_config.d/* and with initramfs-scripts.d/* ?
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| 19:25 | <vagrantc> alkisg: could be
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| 20:39 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I want to separate the "special" files, e.g. epoptes-client.desktop, manpage, /usr/sbin/*, and put them in a different dir, than the files that go to /usr/share/epoptes-client/*, so that I can use globs in setup.py
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| 20:39 | Any hints? I'm thinking of putting the special files in epoptes-client/*, and the other ones in epoptes-client/share/*
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| 20:46 | <vagrantc> alkisg: the other thing i was wondering is if the client variant of epoptes-client and the user variant should be separate programs ... even if they share a lot of the same code, it would be easier to explain debugging
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| 20:47 | alkisg: but i'm not real savvy with python and how it *should* be structured
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| 20:47 | * _UsUrPeR_ tips his hat | |
| 20:47 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I lost you - do you mean the epoptes-client that we start as root, vs the one we start inside the user session?
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| 20:48 | (which is the same program)
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| 20:48 | Hi _UsUrPeR_
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| 20:48 | <vagrantc> alkisg: they do different things depending on context, though, no?
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| 20:48 | <_UsUrPeR_> hey all. I am getting a kernel panic on a PXE boot due to a ethernet driver missing for an Atheros AR8152 Fast Ethernet Card. How does one go about compiling drivers in the chroot to get around a problem like this?
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| 20:49 | <alkisg> vagrantc: not really, it's mostly the same code with just a few "if"s
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| 20:49 | <vagrantc> _UsUrPeR_: first, i'd check if it's available as a module and just not loading ...
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| 20:49 | <alkisg> !adding-modules
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| 20:49 | <ltsp> alkisg: adding-modules: If your clients won't boot with messages like 'eth0: link not ready', maybe you're missing an initramfs-module: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/AddingModules
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| 20:49 | <vagrantc> and apparently, there's already good docs for that :)
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| 20:49 | <alkisg> :)
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| 20:50 | ...if he's using ubuntu/debian in this case
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| 20:50 | (although debian testing+ shouldn't have that problem anymore)
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| 20:50 | <_UsUrPeR_> oh, this is 10.04
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| 20:50 | forgot to mention that part :3
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| 20:50 | * _UsUrPeR_ reads things he was linked | |
| 20:51 | <alkisg> E.g. maybe you're just missing atl1c
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| 20:51 | <_UsUrPeR_> that is what appears to be missing, yes
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| 20:51 | <alkisg> Yup that's the exact page you need
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| 20:51 | <_UsUrPeR_> strange
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| 20:52 | :)
| |
| 20:52 | so this module is included in ubuntu? I just had this individual attempt to boot this particular client with a livecd, and ethernet was not working for him still... That's a brand new 10.04.3 cd he downloaded today
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| 20:54 | <alkisg> The live cd initializes the ethernet card after the initramfs, so all modules are there
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| 20:54 | So if it doesn't work in the live cd, then the adding-modules page won't help - you don't need atl1c but some other module
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| 20:54 | Boot the client with e.g. oneiric 11.10 and run lspci -nn -k | grep -A 2 Ethernet to see the module you need - if it works there
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| 20:55 | If it doesn't... google for the module you need and how to get it :D
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| 20:55 | Maybe you need to install a backported kernel in the chroot
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| 20:56 | If the card is so new that the module isn't there in the 10.04 kernel
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| 20:56 | I.e. something like this in the chroot: apt-get install linux-image-generic-lts-backport-natty
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| 21:03 | <_UsUrPeR_> alkisg: thanks
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| 21:03 | I'll give this a shot
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| 21:05 | <_UsUrPeR_> alkisg: is it possible to compile thse in an ltsp environment?
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| 21:05 | Sorry, I am jumping around
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| 21:05 | <alkisg> _UsUrPeR_: don't start there, you may only need a newer kernel
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| 21:06 | Just try installing the newer kernel, or try a newer live cd, whatever's easiest for you
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| 21:06 | Do you have the card pci id?
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| 21:07 | <_UsUrPeR_> alkisg: No. That will not be something quickly gotten.
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| 21:10 | <alkisg> _UsUrPeR_: http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/catalog/component/pci:2062:1969-NETWORK
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| 21:10 | If it's that, it says that at least in 11.04 it's available without installing anything
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| 21:10 | So you just need the command I wrote above to put the natty kernel in the chroot
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| 21:14 | (and the adding-modules page as well)
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