IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 20 September 2017 (all times are UTC)
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| 00:46 | <mmarconm> Hey xD
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| 03:48 | <muvlon> so, hi again :)
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| 03:48 | Last time I was here, someone recommended a cheap x86-based TV box as a fat client
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| 03:49 | I have a little question about this sort of hardware, since I've never dealt with it
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| 03:49 | is it architecturally the same as a desktop x86 computer?
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| 03:51 | i.e. does it have a regular BIOS (with regular PXE?) ?
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| 03:53 | <vagrantc> probably
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| 03:54 | <sutula> muvlon: I can't speak for every hardware, but have successfully used EeePC boxes.
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| 03:54 | From what I can tell, it's just like a desktop in a smaller box.
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| 03:55 | <muvlon> but is it IBM PC compatible? :D
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| 03:56 | <sutula> If you mean does it have a big honkin' round keyboard connector, "no" :-)
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| 03:56 | <muvlon> it used to be that all x86 hardware for consumers was basically beefed up versions of the IBM PC
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| 03:57 | <sutula> I was poking around earlier tonight and saw this: https://www.amazon.com/Azulle-Quantum-Access-Windows-storage/dp/B00X4O6GRK
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| 03:57 | <muvlon> but the PS3 is not, it lacks a couple of timers and such that the IBM PC had
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| 03:57 | erm, PS4
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| 03:57 | sutula, that sadly lacks an ethernet port
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| 03:57 | <sutula> I have no idea if it's good enough for LTSP but interesting form factor if it was.
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| 03:58 | <muvlon> you can add usb ethernet but that's a bit gnarly
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| 03:58 | * sutula nods | |
| 03:58 | <muvlon> https://www.gearbest.com/media-player/pp_691661.html
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| 03:58 | this one was the one that was linked, I think
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| 04:03 | <sutula> muvlon: Seems nice...if people have successfully used it for ltsp, I should buy a few
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| 04:03 | <muvlon> I'm very confused as to how it apparently ships with windows pre-installed
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| 04:03 | the entire thing costs less than a windows license though
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| 04:07 | <sutula> Good question, but IMO they'd have to pay me to use Win10. Perhaps M$ is trying to get the OS accepted through special deals with manufacturers.
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| 04:07 | <muvlon> nah, I'm not going to use the windows
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| 04:07 | just found that curious
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| 04:07 | <sutula> I have talked to nobody who likes it, but have to admit I don't travel in those circles
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| 04:08 | <muvlon> I wonder if they even give a damn or I've they're just straight up selling pirated windows :D
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| 04:08 | <sutula> Well, it's both Android and Windows...seems at least worth a try.
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| 04:09 | <muvlon> android support means linux has a fighting chance of working fine
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| 04:09 | <sutula> ...the kids can play rock band on the Windows boot :)
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| 04:10 | * sutula needs to give it up for the night but will look in tomorrow to see if anyone else has real experience with Alfawise | |
| 05:03 | <alkisg> !cheap-client
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| 05:03 | <ltsp> cheap-client: (#1) http://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-mini-pc/pp_343636.html, or (#2) https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-arrival-Beelink-Pocket-Z83-Windows-10-Mini-PC-Z8300-64bit-1-84GHz-2GB-RAM-32GB/1871240_32640039781.html
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| 05:04 | <alkisg> muvlon: I proposed those ^, not intel usb stick...
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| 05:04 | It's usually hard to netboot from a usb ethernet adapter
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| 05:05 | <alkisg> !forget cheap-client 2
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| 05:05 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 05:06 | <alkisg> !learn cheap-client as https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Newest-TV-Box-2G-RAM-32-G-ROM-Z83II-Mini-PC-Intel-Atom-x5-Z8350-Quad/32765989563.html
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| 05:06 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 05:07 | <alkisg> !forget cheap-client
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| 05:07 | <ltsp> Error: 2 factoids have that key. Please specify which one to remove, or use * to designate all of them.
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| 05:07 | <alkisg> !forget cheap-client 2
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| 05:07 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 05:07 | <alkisg> !forget cheap-client
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| 05:07 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 05:07 | <alkisg> !learn cheap-client as https://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-c_11262/nt1_windows~10/
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| 05:07 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 06:21 | <muvlon> alkisg, the one I posted was not a usb stick though
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| 06:21 | that was sutula's
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| 06:21 | <alkisg> muvlon: ah ok
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| 06:21 | <muvlon> the one I had was a Z8350-based tv box just like that aliexpress one
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| 06:22 | but it seems an ever so slightly different one
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| 06:22 | <alkisg> muvlon: yes it's the link I posted a month ago in the ltsp bot
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| 06:22 | <muvlon> have you used that one?
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| 06:22 | or either one really?
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| 06:22 | <alkisg> No, bennabiy did
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| 06:22 | I've used similar ones though
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| 06:23 | The worst that can happen is that you won't be able to configure legacy netboot, and not make uefi netboot succeed, so you'd put the kernel in the local storage
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| 06:23 | A 2 min task, if you know how to do it
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| 06:23 | <muvlon> huh
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| 06:23 | does ltsp have a tool for that?
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| 06:23 | <alkisg> !local
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| 06:23 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'local', but I do know about these similar topics: 'install-localapp', 'localdev', 'RDP-localdev', 'LocaldevCommonGroupWorkaround', 'localxterm', 'local-disks', 'local-boot', 'localapps'
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| 06:23 | <alkisg> !kernel
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| 06:23 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'kernel', but I do know about these similar topics: 'ltsp-update-kernels'
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| 06:24 | <alkisg> I put support for updating the kernel locally, in KERNEL_DEVICE=xxx in lts.conf
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| 06:24 | !raspberrypi
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| 06:24 | <ltsp> raspberrypi: (#1) Ubuntu/LTSP on Pi 2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/RaspberryPi, or (#2) Debian/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://cascadia.debian.net/trenza/Documentation/raspberrypi-ltsp-howto/, or (#3) unofficial Ubuntu/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://pinet.org.uk/
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| 06:24 | <alkisg> I document that in (#1) above
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| 06:24 | To put the kernel locally, you just copy it with any method you want, e.g. from an ubuntu live cd
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| 06:24 | (initially)
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| 06:24 | (then it auto-updates)
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| 06:26 | <muvlon> how does it netboot? does it use some software pxe implementation like iPXE?
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| 06:27 | <alkisg> Well, about "putting the kernel locally" => then it doesn't netboot, it boots from the local kernel, and initramfs loads the os from the ltsp server
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| 06:27 | About "The worst that can happen is that you won't be able to configure legacy netboot, and not make uefi netboot succeed", it depends on the client
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| 06:27 | <muvlon> oh, I thought it would get a newer kernel from the server and then kexec that
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| 06:27 | <alkisg> Usually it should have at least uefi netboot support
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| 06:28 | No, if it gets a newer kernel, it writes it locally, and reboots to the new kernel
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| 06:28 | No kexec used
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| 06:28 | <muvlon> neat
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| 06:28 | <alkisg> (kexec was unreliable in some cases)
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| 06:29 | <muvlon> so basically it boots regularly off local storage and then just mounts a couple of network filesystems
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| 06:30 | <alkisg> Yes, in the local storage there's only the /boot dir though, no /usr or anything
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| 06:30 | But normally you'd just netboot it with pxe. This is just the fallback.
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| 06:31 | <muvlon> yeah
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| 06:31 | and I suppose those TV boxes, being intel hardware and all, have pxe
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| 06:32 | <alkisg> I'm not sure if they only have uefi pxe though
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| 06:32 | And not legacy pxe
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| 06:32 | <muvlon> is legacy pxe bad?
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| 06:32 | <alkisg> legacy pxe works
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| 06:32 | <muvlon> i got that to work the other day in my test setup
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| 06:32 | <alkisg> uefi pxe doesn't work with ltsp
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| 06:32 | <muvlon> oh, uefi is the bad one, alright
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| 06:33 | <alkisg> We need to implement that when we get funding... :)
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| 06:33 | <muvlon> if the school likes it, perhaps I can convince them to fork off some cash to you
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| 06:33 | <alkisg> Would be nice for continued development :)
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| 06:34 | <muvlon> I'm not getting paid so far either :/
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| 06:34 | <alkisg> What's your role for that school? Consultant?
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| 06:34 | <muvlon> random linux person
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| 06:34 | maybe-soon-to-be-consultant
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| 06:35 | I'm still a student though so I doubt they would want to pay me that much
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| 06:35 | <alkisg> OK
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| 06:36 | <muvlon> I'll tell you if we actually go through with this ^^
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| 06:37 | <alkisg> Sure
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| 06:38 | <muvlon> if it turns out those boxes *don't* have legacy pxe, I suppose I could try and get efi pxe to work myself
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| 06:38 | not sure what would be required
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| 06:39 | <alkisg> Patches welcome; but it would take a couple of weeks...
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| 06:39 | In some cases the major thing is to add support in dnsmasq proxydhcp mode, in syslinux, in ipxe, in grub etc
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| 06:39 | <muvlon> I have a couple of weeks right now :)
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| 06:40 | <alkisg> I've suceeded in uefi pxe booting in the past, but there were too many bugs in those packages, and too many restrictions, so I postponed my work there
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| 06:40 | <muvlon> it would probably need to be upstreamed into all those projects too in order to be useful for other ltsp users :X
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| 06:41 | or does ltsp already ship with its own dnsmasq, pxelinux etc.?
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| 06:41 | <alkisg> Of course not
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| 06:41 | We can only function when fixes are upstreamed
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| 06:41 | <muvlon> good :)
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| 06:41 | <alkisg> That's what we did with proxydhcp mode as well, years ago
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| 06:42 | <muvlon> the entire mode?
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| 06:42 | so it only exists in dnsmasq because of ltsp?
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| 06:42 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 06:42 | <muvlon> wow! that is cool
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| 06:43 | <alkisg> And in ipxe too
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| 06:44 | <muvlon> quite the project indeed
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| 06:45 | okay, one last question
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| 06:45 | the ltspedia briefly mentions integrating with iTALC
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| 06:46 | and the iTALC homepage says it's discontinued in favor of its successor, Veyon
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| 06:46 | so: is there a way to integrate that with LTSP too?
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| 06:47 | <alkisg> !epoptes
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| 06:47 | <ltsp> epoptes: Epoptes is a computer lab administration and monitoring tool. It works on Ubuntu and Debian based labs with LTSP or non-LTSP servers, thin and fat clients, standalone workstations, NX clients etc. More info: http://www.epoptes.org
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| 06:47 | <alkisg> italc was broken so we developed that one
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| 06:47 | I don't know about new italc versions, I've read about them but never run tham
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| 06:47 | *them
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| 06:47 | <muvlon> alright
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| 06:53 | wait, you people made that as well!
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| 06:54 | <highvoltage> s/people/mostly alkisg/
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| 06:54 | <muvlon> you must be really busy :O
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| 06:55 | <alkisg> Haha
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| 06:55 | :D
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| 06:56 | <muvlon> I've not done that much software but I know enough Python to think I can offer some help :)
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| 06:56 | <alkisg> If you end up using ltsp, that would be very nice!
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| 06:57 | But if you don't, I'm not sure if you'll have reasons to commit for months of development...
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| 06:57 | <muvlon> yeah
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| 06:59 | <bennabiy> Alkis, as far as I can tell with that TV box, it requires local kernel
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| 07:00 | <alkisg> bennabiy: do you mean that it doesn't have netboot support, or that you couldn't make it work with ltsp?
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| 07:00 | <bennabiy> I am going to be doing more with it in a little while, but if you do have uefi netboot patches, I could test them :)
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| 07:00 | only uefi netboot, and at that, I could not get it to work
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| 07:00 | <alkisg> If it supports uefi netboot, then it's fine ;)
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| 07:00 | <bennabiy> been a while since I tried, so my memory is rusty
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| 07:00 | <alkisg> It's just a matter of checking dnsmasq etc again
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| 07:01 | For example, it didn't support proxydhcp in uefi, only normal dhcp
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| 07:01 | <bennabiy> I am not running dnsmasq, I have the traditional 2 nic setup
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| 07:01 | <alkisg> But I think they send some fixes for it 1 year ago
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| 07:01 | And which loader did you use?
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| 07:01 | grub,ipxe, efilinux?
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| 07:01 | <bennabiy> At this point, I am not sure
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| 07:02 | I will have to get it back out again
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| 07:02 | I bought two
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| 07:02 | <alkisg> Each one of those had its own issues
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| 07:02 | All worked, but under restrictions
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| 07:02 | <muvlon> theoretically, efi should not require a loader *at all*, right?
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| 07:02 | <bennabiy> the efi on these is VERY crippled
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| 07:03 | <alkisg> efi has some internal bootloader, but of course it can't load kernel+initrd from the network
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| 07:03 | So a loader is needed
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| 07:03 | If we built our own kernels, and didn't use an initramfs, then we might possibly avoid it...
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| 07:05 | <muvlon> regular uefi can load an efistub kernel + initrd from disk and boot it
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| 07:05 | not sure if the same works for pxe
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| 07:05 | <alkisg> How does it load the initrd without grubefi?
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| 07:07 | AFAIK, uefi would load an .efi file, and provide services for that file (e.g. the kernel) to load additional stuff. I don't think the kernel supports loading an initrd afterwards.
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| 07:07 | <muvlon> the kernel command line in "Add the boot entry" here: https://wiki.debian.org/EFIStub has an initrd argument though
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| 07:08 | I've definitely done this with regular disk boot
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| 07:09 | the question is if the efi implementation on some given device can grab and execute a .efi file from the network
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| 07:10 | <alkisg> muvlon: so initrd=\\EFI\\debian\\initrd.img is implemented by the kernel itself?
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| 07:10 | I.e. the kernel supports loading the initrd from the efi partition?
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| 07:10 | <muvlon> uh
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| 07:11 | I'm not a kernel wizard so I'm not entirely sure
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| 07:11 | but I think so, yes
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| 07:11 | <alkisg> That's very nice to hear. Then sure, it could work over the network, provided that we don't bump into additional limitations, e.g. initial .efi file size..
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| 07:12 | <muvlon> oh right
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| 07:12 | the efi implementation might be unhappy about that
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| 07:12 | there are some really broken efis out there .__.
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| 07:14 | <alkisg> https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/efi-stub.txt
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| 07:14 | Like most boot loaders, the EFI stub allows the user to specify multiple initrd files using the "initrd=" option. This is the only EFI stub-specific command line parameter, everything else is passed to the kernel when it boots.
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| 07:14 | Yey, they implemented that :)
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| 07:14 | <muvlon> neat!
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| 07:16 | wow, it supports arm64 too
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| 07:16 | I wish I had arm64 hardware with efi
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| 15:39 | <sutula> Using ltspmanager and MATE, updated LTSP image yesterday and suddenly people can't log in on thin clients. They get partway into it and then get a popup: The path for the directory containing caja settings need read and write permissions: /.config/caja
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| 15:39 | You can click "OK" but it keeps coming back up.
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| 15:40 | Eventually, reverted to the old image which works fine. Any ideas?
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| 15:41 | Searching the web for the error message, most people have some home directory permission problem, but note that the error message is missing the home directory part of the path, and seems to refer to the system root directory, if that's any clue.
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| 15:43 | Maybe it's a symptom of $HOME being unset?
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| 16:20 | <mmarconm> alexxtasi[m], is there a way to restar a user folder everytime thats user session is turn off or logout ?
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| 16:20 | or executa a script when the user logout
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| 16:23 | alkisg,*
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| 16:55 | <alkisg> sutula: thin or fat clients?
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| 16:56 | <sutula> fat
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| 16:56 | <alkisg> Using epoptes, open a root terminal on a client that has the issue, run cat /proc/mounts, and put the output to pastebin
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| 16:57 | You can also use the "xterm" session from LDM to see what happens
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| 16:57 | * sutula nods | |
| 16:58 | <sutula> alkisg: I'm going to have to wait until people go home rather than shut down work, likely will be about 10 hrs from now.
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| 16:58 | alkisg: Alternatively, what am I looking for?
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| 16:59 | <alkisg> Sure, np. You can also use `sudo ltsp-update-image -r /`, which reverts to the previous image, then reboot ONE client so that it gets the issue, then immediately run `sudo ltsp-update-image -r /` again, to revert to the correct one
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| 16:59 | That way you don't disrupt running users nor users that will boot/reboot 1 minute later
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| 16:59 | You only disrupt users that need to reboot that exact minute between those 2 commands
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| 17:00 | * sutula nods...I guess I can compare proc/mounts output between working and non-working if it's at a time that people aren't around here | |
| 17:01 | <alkisg> The only thing that I can think of right now, is if sshfs got uninstalled for some reason
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| 17:02 | <sutula> OK, thanks...will come back here with either diagnostics or more questions after I do some compares.
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| 17:02 | <alkisg> I don't think anything was changed in ltsp or other related packages recently, so it sounds like a site-specific issue
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| 17:03 | One good test is to go to ldm, select the xterm session, login. That one should work even without home or with read-only home.
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| 17:03 | Check/compare permissions there
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| 17:04 | <sutula> alkisg: When I set up maybe a month ago, I pulled from your https://launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/+archive/ubuntu/ppa Is that still the best source or have things moved into the distro?
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| 17:33 | <alkisg> sutula: ubuntu lts releases are every 2 years, while ppa updates are much more frequent
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| 17:34 | Everything goes into the distro, just 2 years later ;)
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| 17:35 | <sutula> alkisg: OK, thanks much. Pretty much same as Debian except releases are a bit more frequent. :-(
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| 17:36 | <alkisg> In debian it's rather easy for a maintainer to upload to backports whenever he wants
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| 17:37 | Anyway, ppas are more convenient... it's a long chat about how distros should manage software updates
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| 17:38 | <sutula> OK, no problem at all...just didn't want to miss the announcement if the "good stuff" moves somewhere else.
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| 17:39 | <alkisg> I'll update the wiki pages then
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| 19:59 | <mmarconm> has a way to reset the user folder or executa a script when the user logout ? "sorry i asked the same question before, but my connection fails"
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| 22:49 | <vagrantc> heh. ltspfs seems to be convertible to python3 with just python's 2to3 helper.
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| 22:49 | of course, still need to test if it works
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