IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 1 October 2007 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:37 | <vlt> Hello. The worst case happened: A Thin Client died, I took a spare one (nearly same type: HP t5000 series) but it freezes just before X starts. I removed "splash" and "quiet" from kernel append line to see what's happening there. But everything runs fine until X starts.
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| 01:38 | The screen gets dark so I can't see any log output.
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| 01:38 | What can I try to enable/disable to check what's wrong here?
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| 01:41 | <vlt> BTW: I have dozens of these clients here: Nearly all kinds of HP's t5xxx. And got no problems so far. This is the first t5710. Any known issues with this model? New video chipset maybe?
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| 02:26 | <vlt> Is there something I can put in the client's /etc/ltsp.conf that would prevent X from starting?
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| 02:26 | <vagrantc_> vlt: what linux distro?
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| 02:27 | <vlt> vagrantc_: Ubuntu Dapper 6.06
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| 02:27 | <vagrantc_> on ubuntu or debian with ltsp5, setting any SCREEN_NN will stop X from starting
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| 02:27 | well ...
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| 02:28 | dapper's ltsp is not so good.
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| 02:29 | <vlt> vagrantc_: Dapper's LTSP is not so good!?! Why didn't you tell me that in 06-2006 when I set up several environments using this setup? ;-) ;-)
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| 02:30 | <vagrantc_> well, ubuntu's LTSP wasn't really feature-complete until edgy/6.10
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| 02:33 | <vlt> vagrantc_: Ok, my problem now is that I just faced the situation that a Thin Client freezes when it comes to starting X. Any known issues with HP's later t5000 series? All other t5xxx here work just fine.
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| 02:33 | * vagrantc_ has no experience with hp's thin-clients | |
| 02:34 | <vagrantc_> probably switched video chipsets on you or something.
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| 02:34 | vlt: you have several of the newer models, all freezing ? or just one ?
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| 02:37 | <yanu> i have a compaq m300 laptop that is freezing just before X try to start, i thought there was not enough ram, 64Mb
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| 02:37 | but could it be that? i don't think so
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| 02:38 | <vagrantc_> not enough ram would probably just cause X to crash.
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| 02:38 | <yanu> is 64 not enough?
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| 02:38 | <vagrantc_> 64 should be enough.
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| 02:39 | <yanu> i have another m300 with 128Mb and there are no problems at all
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| 02:40 | i'll try changing ram later, thx
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| 02:41 | <vlt> vagrantc_: I have three "new" t5710 -- all freezing. I already disabled "quiet" and "splash" from kernel append line to see what's going on there. But eversting looks just fine 'til X starts.
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| 02:41 | <vagrantc_> vlt: ok, so it's several machines of a particular model rather than a single machine...
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| 02:42 | <vlt> vagrantc_: Yes, right. A particular model freezes.
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| 02:43 | <vagrantc_> other than just basic troubleshooting, i really can't suggest anything.
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| 02:44 | <vlt> vagrantc_: What would you do first? Disable nbd and stuff?
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| 02:44 | <vagrantc_> vlt: i'd get a shell so you can look at it a bit more ...
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| 02:44 | vlt: SCREEN_07=shell in lts.conf
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| 02:45 | <vlt> vagrantc_: I'll try, thanks.
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| 02:45 | <vagrantc_> vlt: compare the specs on the hardware ...
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| 02:46 | vlt: and honestly, you might consider trying to get a more recent version installed, at least to test if the problem is fixed in the last two (nearly 3) releases.
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| 02:46 | vlt: at least, make a test install on another server...
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| 02:47 | pwd
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| 02:49 | good luck
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| 04:41 | <frame_> Hello everybody
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| 04:41 | I'm having problems with ThinCan DBE61 terminals booting with edubuntu 7.04 feisty
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| 04:42 | I got these to boot but boot process becomes inactive after loading USB drivers
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| 04:44 | no ldm or X - just spits out a broken error message after a while - 'ALERT! does not exist. Dropping to a shell!
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| 04:44 | how to debug it? there nothing much in servers syslog
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| 04:46 | actually tried also with PXE laptop - then I saw edubuntu splash but progress gets halted/paused and after a while I get similar error message on console.
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| 04:46 | can't figure out what's wrong
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| 05:03 | <vlt> Hello. I did some more testing: Not the whole kernel on the three HP t5710 clients freezes, but only X. I can connect in via ssh. Xorg is running on 100 % cpu load, I can't even `kill -9` it. I pasted the client's Xorg.log here: http://pastebin.com/m587448fd -- Any idea what I could try to make these clients work?
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| 05:09 | <yanu> /dev/wacon is the mouse device on laptops, that's giving errors ...
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| 05:10 | i see a lot of errors like this: implausibly old time stamp on var/cache/devconf
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| 05:16 | <frame_> anyone running edubuntu 7.04 LTSP server here?
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| 05:56 | <yanu> "implausibly old time stamp" looks like a tar-problem, but only on that machine, hmm, wierd ...
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| 06:08 | <vlt> yanu: I got these /dev/wacom errors on all clients (example: http://pastebin.com/m152b19f9) but no problems running X. Is there an X_SERVER option in ltsp.conf I could try to make X handle this ATI chip?
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| 06:40 | <mwright1> hi
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| 06:40 | <yanu> vlt: i don't know, you can set X_VIDEORAM = 4096, X_COLOR_DEPTH = 24 ...
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| 06:40 | <mwright1> Just wandering if anyone knows if Guty Beta 64bit LTSP works?
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| 06:41 | AMD64/EMT64
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| 06:41 | My machine is 4x Opteron 2.4ghz
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| 06:50 | <vlt> yanu: hmmm, I tried your options, but no difference.
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| 06:51 | <yanu> vlt: thougt so, i cannot help you, sorry
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| 08:08 | <cdealer__> anyone knows why im getting a forbiden 403 error from security.ubuntu.com when making ltsp-build-clients ?
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| 08:09 | <ogra> cdealer__, apt-get update ?
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| 08:09 | <cdealer__> yes
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| 08:09 | <ogra> which release is that ?
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| 08:09 | (works fine here)
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| 08:09 | <cdealer__> this was the very first thing I did... 7.04
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| 08:09 | <ogra> hmm, strange
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| 08:10 | <cdealer__> ogra: will try again
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| 08:11 | <ogra> you can skip security with the "--security-mirror none" option as well and add it later to the client env as well btw
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| 08:12 | <cdealer__> ogra: this is not the first time I install ltsp... I had a similar error in past but dont remember exactly what was the problem... Will try again, I changed my ip, maybe was a firewall restriction... I dont know yet
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| 08:29 | <cdealer__> ogra: yeah, was a firewall problem, everything fine now.
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| 08:29 | <ogra> :)
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| 08:35 | <vlt> Hello again. I played a little with the "XSERVER=" setting in lts.conf. Neither "ati" nor "radeon" work. Then I tried "vesa" wich works (with 60 Hz). Any idea what else I could try (else than running LTSP > Dapper)?
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| 08:38 | The machines are models HP t5710 as describes about 50 lines above.
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| 08:42 | <ogra> dapper ?
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| 08:42 | phew
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| 08:42 | thats ancient
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| 08:43 | <ogra> very likely there is simply no support for that card in either of the free drivers
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| 08:43 | at least in these olde drivers
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| 08:43 | do you have a company requirement or something that forces you to use dapper ?
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| 08:44 | did you modify the lts.conf beyond settinf XSERVER ?
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| 08:50 | <vlt> ogra: I got Dapper running on several company branch offices because of its LTS attribute. Can you reccommend upgrading to Feisty (or Gutsy soon) in production environment? For the 2nd part of you rquestion: I got a [default] section with NBD server, XKBLAYOUT and some default HORIZ... and VERT... values ...
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| 08:51 | * vlt is gonna do it today: | |
| 08:51 | <vlt> Scotttttyyyyy!!!!
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| 08:52 | <Q-FUNK> !S
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| 08:52 | <ltspbot`> Q-FUNK: Error: "S" is not a valid command.
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| 08:52 | <Q-FUNK> !s
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| 08:52 | <ltspbot`> Q-FUNK: Error: "s" is not a valid command.
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| 08:52 | <rjune> !s
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| 08:52 | <ltspbot`> rjune: Error: "s" is not a valid command.
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| 08:52 | <Q-FUNK> hm
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| 08:52 | <rjune> WTF?
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| 08:52 | <sbalneav_> !topics
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| 08:52 | <ltspbot`> sbalneav_: Error: "topics" is not a valid command.
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| 08:52 | <sbalneav_> hm
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| 08:52 | looks like ltspbot lost his factoids.
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| 08:52 | <rjune> ltspbot`: learn s is for Scotty!!!!!!
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| 08:52 | <ltspbot`> rjune: Error: "learn" is not a valid command.
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| 08:53 | <sbalneav_> I'll have to fix him tonight.
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| 08:53 | !seen sbalneav
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| 08:53 | <ltspbot`> sbalneav_: sbalneav was last seen in #ltsp 11 hours, 58 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <sbalneav> hey jammcq
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| 08:53 | <Q-FUNK> sbalneav_: one of our customers who is testing a thincan with gutsy beta wants to know if he can contact you to help him figure out what freezes during bootup.
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| 08:53 | <sbalneav_> Customer, eh?
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| 08:54 | He already has contacted me.
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| 08:54 | You give him my email address?
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| 08:54 | <Q-FUNK> here, it works fine on debian/etch and ubuntu/edgy, so i have no idea what could have broken it.
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| 08:54 | nope
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| 08:57 | <Q-FUNK> what worries me is that both Etherboot (LTSP) and USB boot (Linutop) is suddenly experiencing all sorts of X and USB problems when built against Gutsy, yet the exact same kernel and X -amd driver code works fine when built against Etch or Edgy.
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| 08:58 | sbalneav_: he asked me who did the LTSP integration at Ubuntu. I mentioned you and ogra.
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| 08:59 | <sbalneav_> Only problem I have with the thincan is the amd driver autodetect not working.
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| 08:59 | <Q-FUNK> I suggested making a bug report against gutsy beta on the appropriate package.
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| 08:59 | <sbalneav_> if I specify an xorg.conf file, it works.
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| 09:00 | <Q-FUNK> sbalneav_: indeed so. I have informed the AMD Geode list, pointing to the bug, but i haven't gotten any significant response.
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| 09:00 | <ogra> sbalneav_, well, thats a workaround at least
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| 09:00 | <sbalneav_> Morning ogra.
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| 09:01 | <ogra> hey
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| 09:01 | <sbalneav_> My box is logged in at home, but for some reason, I can't ssh into it :(
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| 09:01 | <ogra> my server got hacked :(
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| 09:01 | just had the ISP shut it down, change all mail adresses etc
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| 09:01 | <sbalneav_> oin$ ssh oin.ath.cx
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| 09:01 | ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host
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| 09:02 | ogra: Oh, no!
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| 09:02 | <sbalneav_> How'd they get in?
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| 09:03 | <ogra> no idea yet
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| 09:03 | i'll see if i get the server
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| 09:04 | UPS should deliver this week
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| 09:04 | it had a special controller in it that required a manually compiled kernel module, thus i skipped some kernel updates ...
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| 09:04 | seems that was my mistake here
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| 09:05 | it could also be a HW failure but only inspection will revel that
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| 09:05 | <yanu> i see a lot of errors like this: "implausibly old time stamp"
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| 09:05 | <ogra> at least that finally forces me to order the SDSL line for my basement and finally set up my own DC
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| 09:05 | <yanu> had to do with tar?
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| 09:06 | anyone a clue, ltsp4.2 starts fine, ltsp5 ,noppe
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| 09:06 | <ogra> you mean you have both installed simultaneozusly on that server ?
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| 09:06 | <yanu> there are a lot of such errors at boottime
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| 09:07 | no, on another test subnet
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| 09:07 | <ogra> thats the BIOS clock being somewhere in the 70s
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| 09:07 | shouldnt do any harm but noise
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| 09:07 | <yanu> autch, i'll check that
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| 09:07 | x does'nt start, all frozen ...
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| 09:07 | <ogra> with vesa all is fine ?
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| 09:12 | <yanu> hmm, can't change the date on a compaq m300 laptop, damned
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| 09:12 | not tried that vesa
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| 09:13 | <ogra> "<vlt> Hello again. I played a little with the "XSERVER=" setting in lts.conf. Neither "ati" nor "radeon" work. Then I tried "vesa" wich works (with 60 Hz). Any idea what else I could try (else than running LTSP > Dapper)?"
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| 09:13 | you said you did
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| 09:15 | <yanu> that was vlt ;)
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| 09:15 | <ogra> oops
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| 09:16 | sorry, bt dizzy today :)
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| 09:16 | hmm, wait ... dapper ....
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| 09:16 | if you booted the client you get a console ?
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| 09:17 | did you check with hitting ctrl-alt-f7 if there is an X server running on the other console ?
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| 09:17 | there was a bug in dapper that prevented proper console switching in the bootprocess
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| 09:17 | if it is that, there is an easy fix
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| 09:17 | <yanu> ya i did, no x running, ssh isn't posseble
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| 09:18 | <ogra> ssh isnt installed
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| 09:18 | <yanu> i'm using feisty
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| 09:18 | <ogra> (on the client)
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| 09:18 | oh, man
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| 09:18 | * ogra should take the day off rather | |
| 09:18 | <yanu> hehe, no problem
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| 09:20 | thx, first eating
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| 09:51 | <yanu> that laptop is getting realy hot, so the processor is working really bad, i guess
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| 09:55 | <vlt> yanu: You can install an ssh server in the chroot, try to connect to the client and see, what causes this load. In my case here it's X running on 99.9 % cpu (HP t5710 on Dapper).
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| 09:55 | (You'll have to reboot the client to actually run sshd)
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| 09:58 | <yanu> it's also an ati-card, rage pro ...
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| 10:03 | <yanu> vlt: did you read what orga mensioned?
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| 10:09 | <tiagovaz> ogra, hi, is there any solution for #432669?
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| 10:09 | <ogra> remind me which one that is ?
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| 10:10 | <tiagovaz> about cdpinger
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| 10:10 | needs ltspfs_fstab
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| 10:13 | <ogra> hmm
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| 10:14 | we used /etc/fstab for that in feisty iirc
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| 10:14 | <joebob777as7> ltsp-build-client for alternative arch still halts forever at the inetd portion for me... I have to hit enter a few times and do it again....
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| 10:14 | <ogra> we switched with the 0.5 version to ltspfs_fstab only ...
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| 10:15 | i wonder if you have a development snapshot there
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| 10:15 | <tiagovaz> i dont,
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| 10:15 | can get it
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| 10:15 | <ogra> let me rephrase: i wonder if 0.4.3+debian2+0.edu.0.etch.0 is made off a dev snapshot :)
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| 10:16 | sounds like it is onl half way switched over
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| 10:24 | <jammcq> g'morning my friends
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| 10:25 | yes
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| 10:25 | heh, oops
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| 10:43 | <jammcq> cliebow_: hey
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| 10:43 | congrats
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| 10:44 | <cliebow_> thasnks..brb
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| 10:49 | <cliebow_> jammcq:it was an awesome time...the groom's parents booked the Seawall..pretty much the whoe thing..
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| 10:50 | <jammcq> wow
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| 10:50 | did you get a chance to talk to David about our weekend?
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| 10:50 | <cliebow_> i will today..give me the dates again??
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| 10:50 | <jammcq> nov 3rd and 4th
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| 10:51 | we'd actually arrive on the morning of the 3rd
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| 10:51 | it's a saturday
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| 11:42 | <vagrantc> ogra: when you get a chance, push your gutsy branch.
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| 12:11 | <vagrantc> ogra: when you get a chance, please push your gutsy branch. the gutsy branch is only up to 5.0.34
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| 12:13 | <ogra> doing, sorry
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| 12:14 | most of that are quickfixes, rather dont pull them though
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| 12:15 | <vagrantc> ogra: yeah, looking at the changelog, i probably won't bother to pull them
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| 12:15 | <ogra> most will be reverted before release
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| 12:15 | that was all stuff for beta
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| 12:18 | <cliebow_> ogra:still dies at "Starting kernel log daemon
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| 12:38 | <cdealer__> ogra: there are anyproblem with the passwd -e option for user login as a ltsp client ??
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| 12:39 | <ogra> not in gutsy ...
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| 12:39 | before ldm didnt support it
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| 12:39 | <cdealer__> ogra: because with the passwd -e command the user if to be able to change his own password, right? But with this option the user login and logoff again to the login screen ... O.o
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| 12:40 | *if=is
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| 12:40 | <ogra> well, are you using gutsy ?
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| 12:41 | (or sid, i think tat has it too now)
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| 12:41 | *that
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| 12:41 | <cdealer__> ogra: well... im with ubuntu 7.04, I think fetsy right ?
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| 12:41 | <ogra> feisty, yes
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| 12:41 | that didnt support expired passwords
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| 12:42 | <cdealer__> hahaha
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| 12:42 | <ogra> in gutsy ldm was completely rewritte for exactly such features
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| 12:42 | <cdealer__> so ... im f**i now lol
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| 12:43 | <ogra> well, gutsy will be released officially on the 18th ... how much time pressure do you have ?
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| 12:43 | <cdealer__> I cant make some upgrade so this could work at feisty ?
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| 12:44 | ogra: we are overtime already, Im suppose to have a final test this weeky... but its a test box yet, not production
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| 12:44 | <ogra> no, that wont work with feisty yu would need a good bunch of chnages to the ltsp code beyond replacing ldm with the new version
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| 12:45 | <cdealer__> ogra: hmm .. there are any page about the major ltsp changes in gutsy ?
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| 12:45 | <ogra> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPWithoutNFS
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| 12:45 | that doesnt list all the ldm changes though
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| 12:46 | when is your final deadline (beyond testing)
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| 12:46 | if thats past the 18th i'D really suggest gutsy
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| 12:46 | the ltsp code wont change much anymore for the most parts there
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| 12:47 | (beyond some debian-installer bugs which wont affect you if you dont use the edubuntu CD for installation)
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| 12:47 | <cdealer__> well, all tests are going fine, this password change is something very important but for now we can use the old method, so I will give a final answer this week and in 2 weeks we are receiving the client boxes and the servers ... so I think everything will be ready for production at the end of the month
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| 12:47 | <ogra> gutsy is *lots* faster than feisty wrt booting the clients for example
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| 12:48 | <cdealer__> oh sure, I will be using gutsy ...
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| 12:49 | <cdealer__> ogra: any update to the skype issue on gutsy ?
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| 12:50 | <ogra> nope
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| 12:50 | no work on the sound system in gutsy ... its the same as in feisty
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| 12:51 | (beyond updated versions of the involved packages)
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| 12:52 | <ogra> the switch to squashfs/unionfs/nbd ate most of my dev time, and sbalneav spent his time on writing the new ldm ...
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| 12:52 | <cdealer__> yeah, must be a lot of work
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| 12:52 | <ogra> not enough manpower to change everything at a time
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| 12:53 | <cdealer__> but this project is something very important its something that you must be proud at
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| 12:53 | <ogra> i am, totally
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| 12:53 | <joebob777as7> *claps for ogra and sbalneav!
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| 12:54 | <cliebow_> hip hip!!
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| 13:07 | <lns> Wow, Gutsy sounds like it's really coming along!! Congrats everyone
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| 13:07 | How's the upgrade process from Feisty to Gutsy going to be for existing LTSP networks?
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| 13:08 | <sbalneav_> lns: As always, I'd recommend, for the small amount of time it takes, to just mv /opt/ltsp /opt/ltsp.old && ltsp-build-client.
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| 13:09 | <lns> sbalneav, sounds pretty damn simple to me ;)
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| 13:10 | so no issues with user accounts/old configs, etc?
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| 13:11 | <sbalneav_> YMMV
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| 13:11 | None that I'm aware of, but you should, always, test yourself.
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| 13:12 | <sbalneav_> The warranty I give you is directly proportional to the amount of money you pay me :)
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| 13:12 | And seeing as how I don't accept cash for LTSP work :)
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| 13:14 | <cliebow_> accept Heinie I hope!
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| 13:14 | <jammcq> sbalneav_: hmm, just what do you say, when someone does offer cash?
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| 13:14 | <sbalneav_> No.
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| 13:15 | <jammcq> heh
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| 13:15 | * ogra guesses that really depends on the zeros | |
| 13:15 | <lns> sbalneav, hahaha
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| 13:15 | <jammcq> what if they offer, say something better, like, umm,...... cheesecake?
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| 13:15 | <ogra> 0's are so important for such answers :)
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| 13:15 | <lns> dude, everyone knows the standard currency for OSS development/support is pizza and beer.
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| 13:16 | <cliebow_> ok Smarties!.my gutsy wont boot..with error "starting kernel log deaemon..so for the hyell of it a turned off klog..now.."system message bus dbus" is where it hangs..
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| 13:16 | <ogra> that the server itself, right ?
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| 13:17 | <cliebow_> yes
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| 13:17 | <ogra> *that's
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| 13:17 | * jammcq noticed the cheesecake left sbalneav speachless | |
| 13:17 | <ogra> did you switch off splash and quiet already ?
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| 13:17 | <cliebow_> no i will..
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| 13:18 | sbalneav got the munchies...
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| 13:21 | Bells...more testing..
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| 13:26 | <lns> cliebow, mmm....munchies
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| 14:03 | <cdealer__> ogra: have you userd already x11vnc and thin-client-manager sucessfuly ?
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| 14:04 | <ogra> cdealer__, yep
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| 14:04 | <cdealer__> ogra: chroot them install apt-get install x11vnc on the client ?
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| 14:07 | <ogra> and set up some stuff in rc.local
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| 14:07 | so x11vnc gets started on boot ...
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| 14:32 | <cdealer__> ogra: slowwwwwwwwww ... it became too slow
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| 14:35 | ogra: I wont let x11vnc start automactly its too heavy
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| 14:54 | <joebaker> is there a working nxclient script out there? I'd love to be able to have my thin clients have the option of an NX login.
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| 14:56 | <vagrantc> i've seen em, don't know where they are.
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| 14:56 | <joebob777as7> joebaker, what is nx?
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| 14:57 | <joebaker> http://www.nomachine.com http://www.2x.com They both employ X protocol caching/compression/proxying
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| 14:59 | <joebob777as7> any good?
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| 15:01 | <joebaker> Right now I use XDMCP, log into a Gnome desktop session as an alternate username, then launch nxclient and reconnect to my persistent session.
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| 15:01 | <joebaker> I like it, yes. Although my main use is for maintaining applications in a running state.
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| 15:02 | so at the end of the work day I can just shut off my terminal. I can re-attach from home and have excellent responsetime.
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| 15:03 | <sbalneav_> There's been several of them posted to the mailing list over the years. Couple of issue/caveats with nx:
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| 15:04 | 1) NX is non-Free software, since it contains binary blobby bits, so it can't be shipped by default on any linux distro. NX uses very old x libs, so who knows what security issues are there.
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| 15:04 | 2) NX generates a lot of load on the server. It's ok for a few connections, but you wouldn't want to have 40 workstations logged in via NX.
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| 15:05 | That being said, lots of people use it and like it.
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| 15:06 | <vagrantc> well, there's free software server-side bits. just no client-side stuff.
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| 15:07 | <lns> is there any (legal) way of creating some sort of freenx-client ?
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| 15:07 | <vagrantc> and the libraries are free software, so it would be concievable for someone with the know-how to write a free client...
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| 15:08 | <sbalneav_> The fact that for several years now, no-one's undertaken the task tells me its a big job :)
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| 15:08 | <vagrantc> indeed
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| 15:08 | <joebaker> There was a gnome client just released.
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| 15:08 | <sbalneav_> Free?
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| 15:08 | <lns> it sounds like nx, using its own X libs, etc. is at the point where LTSP was a while back. I wonder if someone could re-implement NX in a way that LTSP/Muekow is, with just hooking into existing distro X libs
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| 15:08 | <joebaker> The developer thinks that he can get it to run on PPC architectures also... Free as in GPL
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| 15:09 | <sbalneav_> Well, that's a new development then.
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| 15:09 | <joebaker> Yes
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| 15:09 | <lns> joebaker, url?
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| 15:09 | <sbalneav_> I don't find NX interesting to me at all, so I don't keep up on it.
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| 15:09 | <joebaker> Thinking....
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| 15:10 | searching freenx mailing list archives....
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| 15:10 | <lns> sbalneav, how come you find it not interesting?
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| 15:11 | <sbalneav_> Ummm... because I don't?
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| 15:11 | It's not something I'd use.
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| 15:12 | <lns> lol
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| 15:12 | <joebaker> He calls it nxlaunch ....
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| 15:12 | I'm getting the url from the web based list.
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| 15:13 | <lns> personally i could see nx as a great thing for LTSP, in that users could utilize its functionality from off-site. I think it would integrate well (but probably not technically as far as you say)
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| 15:13 | <sbalneav_> Neither myself nor my users need session persistence, and I don't feel that the huge hit on server performance for this feature justifies my spending any time on it.
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| 15:13 | <lns> just in the spirit of "you can get your session anywhere"
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| 15:14 | <sbalneav_> My role in a developer for LTSP is: I'm here to scratch the itches that bother me. This isn't an itch for me, so I won't bother scratching it. If it's an itch for YOU, then your path is clear: bzr checkout ltsp, and start hacking :)
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| 15:14 | <joebaker> I suggest that the gains in server performance are great by using nx. Imagine all those users not having to reload the applications at bootup. All the re-linking of code that doesnt' have to happen.
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| 15:14 | <lns> sbalneav, hehe..i understand, was just curious as to your views
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| 15:15 | <joebaker> Here's the url... It shows all the threads for the month. Search for nxlaunch
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| 15:15 | http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/freenx-knx/2007-September/thread.html
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| 15:16 | <sbalneav_> joebaker: How do you account for all the load induced for not only running the app, and doing all the regular X calls, but then having to maintain the image deltas that need to get pushed down the wire?
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| 15:16 | <joebaker> But really I don't think much of a gui is necessary.
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| 15:16 | <jammcq> joebaker: those gains are nothing compared to the additional overhead of actually running nxserver for all those users
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| 15:17 | <joebob777as7> LOUD NOISES
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| 15:17 | <joebaker> The NXServer software need not run on the same box.
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| 15:17 | <joebob777as7> lol
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| 15:17 | <joebaker> I don't think the overhead is that much.
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| 15:18 | (Same box as the applications server)
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| 15:18 | <sbalneav_> loud noises?
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| 15:19 | <joebob777as7> sbalneav, ever seen anchorman?
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| 15:19 | <sbalneav_> no
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| 15:20 | <joebaker> I'd wager that the overhead of standard ssh compression would be greater than the NX treatment of the traffic.
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| 15:20 | <joebob777as7> well it's a movie line. it just came to me. my buddy and i had a laugh. ;)
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| 15:20 | * jammcq wonders why you'd say that. NX USES SSH | |
| 15:21 | <joebaker> I'd love to learn this better.... correct me if I'm wrong.
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| 15:21 | <jammcq> then, NX includes runs an Xserver, drawing it's screens to a framebuffer for every user
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| 15:22 | <joebaker> Depending on the session settings one may specify various levels of lossy compression.
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| 15:22 | <jammcq> then, it takes those things that get written to the frame buffer and sends them along to the NX client so that they can be displayed on the real client screen
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| 15:22 | <joebaker> or lossless.
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| 15:22 | <jammcq> so right off the bat, you've got a huge amount of memory being taken up by the Xserver and Framebuffer
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| 15:22 | multiply that by the number of users
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| 15:23 | it's awesome for a couple of users
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| 15:23 | <joebaker> I don't believe there is a frame buffer on the server side.
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| 15:23 | <jammcq> and not so much, for lots of users
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| 15:23 | <joebaker> There is intelligent analysis of the X data. X graphical objects are cached on both sides.
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| 15:23 | icons in the menus, components of web pages.
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| 15:24 | theme objects.
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| 15:24 | Once these objects are cached they are simply referenced rather than re-transferred.
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| 15:25 | I have a machine with freenx 0.6.0 installed. If any of you want to try it out.
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| 15:25 | <frame__> is anyone working on ltsp load balancing and HA/Clustering?
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| 15:25 | <jammcq> I've used nx. don't need your server
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| 15:25 | <joebaker> It's provided by burlingtonlinux.org
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| 15:25 | <sbalneav_> " intelligent analysis of the X data" = More cpu load :)
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| 15:26 | More cpu load x 40 clients = lots of extra cpu load.
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| 15:26 | <jammcq> NX is fantastic at what it was designed for. Remote X over a WAN
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| 15:26 | <joebaker> I suspect that using Firefox with nx significantly reduces the ram requirements on the thin client.
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| 15:26 | <lns> joebob777as7, i got your Anchorman ref....that is probably the funniest line in the movie...and now back to ltsp ;)
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| 15:26 | <joebaker> But I havn't actually tested that yet.
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| 15:26 | <sbalneav_> That's all I'm saying. It's great for what it's designed for.
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| 15:26 | <jammcq> joebaker: and significantly increases the requirements on the server
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| 15:26 | <sbalneav_> frame__: Load balancing features are in Gutsy.
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| 15:29 | <joebaker> If Xorg already creates md5sums or some sort of hash of it's graphic objects, then maintaining a lookup table of those hashes is trivial.
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| 15:29 | and not much more of a load at all.
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| 15:29 | <frame__> sbalneav: I just had an idea I'm evaluating - to use for example Xen live sync for Ltsp HA setup - cloned memory, shared storage from SAN - could it work actually?
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| 15:31 | idea is to have HA ltsp - so syncing servers memory and storage is needed somehow a
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| 15:31 | <joebaker> So I suppose I could test this somehow. Watch the load on servers when scrolling up and down a Firefox page. Compare the impact to an nx client doing the same thing.
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| 15:31 | <frame__> and a xen live sync almost provides that
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| 15:32 | <sbalneav_> Don't know. I know nothing about xen.
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| 15:33 | <frame__> It doesn't matter if its xen or something else - just virtualization solution with live migration which allows actually to keep memory in sync between servers with small timeframe actually
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| 15:34 | <sbalneav_> Ok, I'll rephrase: I don't know anything about virtualization :)
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| 15:34 | <frame__> it might be quite easy solution for ltsp HA setup
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| 15:34 | <vagrantc> of course it *could* work. the question is weather you actually manage to get it to work.
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| 15:35 | <sbalneav_> We gratefully accept patches/contributions :)
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| 15:35 | <frame__> yep that should be up for proof-of-concept testing
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| 15:35 | <vagrantc> frame__: go for it!
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| 15:36 | been looking at just having backup xen servers ... not live migration, but just manually taking servers down and bringing others up...
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| 15:36 | <frame__> anybody knows how on sunrays the session reconnection is done - keeping things running actually on server?
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| 15:37 | xen live migration is getting ready for production now
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| 15:51 | <frame__> is pulseaudio fully supported out-of-box with ltsp on feisty?
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| 15:52 | or there is some manual setup to do besides setting SOUND_SERVER?
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| 15:53 | <joebob777as7> thanks lns i'm glad i'm not the only one. ;)
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| 15:54 | <vagrantc> frame__: should just need SOUND=True, if it doesn't automatically configure
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| 15:55 | <frame__> so pulse is default choice?
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| 15:55 | <vagrantc> should be ...
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| 15:56 | <frame__> mhm...I didn't look at Gnome sound sink today, sound worked but volume control did not - is it known to work with pulse?
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| 15:59 | <vagrantc> frame__: you'd have to ask ogra ...
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| 15:59 | <frame__> ok
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| 21:27 | <sbalneav> Evening all
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| 21:43 | <jammcq> helloooooooo
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| 21:46 | <chad> I am having problems with printing in edubuntu ltsp kiosk mode
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| 21:46 | thin clients do not see any printers installed.
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| 22:15 | <tomcats_> Anyone know where can I find cheap thin clients that work with ltsp?
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| 22:21 | <sbalneav> Sure
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| 22:21 | disklessworkstations.com, thincan.com, used computers on ebay, etc.
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| 22:28 | <tomcats_> This is my dilema.. I am in Mexico and I used to buy very cheap thin clients from company X in the US, IBM Mexico found out about this a inmediatly secured some sort of territorial agreement and now I can't buy from company X I have to buy from company Y that wants to charge me 3 times as much as company X claiming they added a 3 year onsite warranty and import fees... I say its bull since obviously you dont need onsite repair for a thin client + mexico
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| 22:28 | computer equipment.... what should I do!??
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| 22:29 | <sbalneav> Pay three times as much.
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| 22:30 | Or, just buy something local.
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| 22:30 | Used machines make good thin clients.
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| 22:30 | <tomcats_> the problem is that we do proyects so is not ok to sell used hardware...
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| 22:31 | <sbalneav> You can't sell used hardware?
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| 22:31 | <tomcats_> and I can't seem to find anyone that sells mini-itx boards or cases here
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| 22:32 | <sbalneav> Then looks like you're stuck paying then.
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| 22:32 | <tomcats_> I was thinking to build my own thin clients but it is actually more expensive to buy the parts that the whole thin-client...
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| 22:33 | I jist can't figure out how Devon IT manages to sell you a 800 Mhz VIA thinclient with 128 Mb of ram + case + psu for $149... how do they do it?
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| 22:39 | <sbalneav> We get lots of people in here with devonit boxes with performance problems.
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| 22:41 | <jammcq> tomcats_: DisklessWorkstations.com sells a workstation for less than $120
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| 22:41 | and, we ship to mexico
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| 22:45 | <tomcats_> really? the website seems to be down.. what are the specs for the $120 workstation?
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| 22:45 | <jammcq> 533mhz
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| 22:45 | the site is up, but we seem to be having routing problems for sites south of the border
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| 22:45 | sbalneav: could you try getting to http://www.DisklessWorkstations.com ?
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| 22:46 | <tomcats_> it resolves to 198.22.63.10 but it doesn't work..
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| 22:47 | jammcq: how much ram?
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| 22:47 | <jammcq> tomcats_: what's odd is that it works from here
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| 22:47 | I think it's 128mb of ram
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| 22:47 | <tomcats_> nice, does it have sound in/out?
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| 22:47 | <jammcq> yeah, sound
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| 22:47 | 10/100 network
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| 22:48 | upto 1280x1024 video
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| 22:48 | it's an eBox-2300
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| 22:48 | very small footprint
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| 22:49 | <tomcats_> nice, it seems to be what I need, we use thin clients for call centers..
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| 22:49 | so havins alsa working is very important...
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| 22:49 | <sbalneav> jammcq: Works fine for me.
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| 22:49 | <jammcq> hmm, alsa is a problem. it uses the sis 7019 audio chipset, and currently, there's no Alsa driver for it
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| 22:50 | sbalneav: thanks for checking. our brazilian buddies haven't been able to get to the site
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| 22:51 | <tomcats_> you mean 2.4 alsa? will 2.6 support that audio card?
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| 22:52 | <jammcq> no Alsa drivers for the card. there's a oss driver, but it's not included in the kernel
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| 22:53 | <tomcats_> ohh no...
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| 22:58 | so it might work.. Read that is a 200 mhz vortex86 cpu?
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| 22:58 | <jammcq> oh yeah
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| 22:59 | it's not much of a thin client, but it works pretty well. dunno if you'd want to do voip on it tho
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| 23:01 | <tomcats_> do you have something like ~800 mhz + 128 MB ram thin client?
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| 23:01 | <jammcq> well, the T-170 is a 1Ghz with 256mb
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| 23:02 | or the T-1225 is 800mhz with 128mb
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| 23:02 | err, that's T-1220
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| 23:03 | price is #284.95
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| 23:06 | <tomcats_> do you think you can send me an e-mail so we can discuss this? fgonzalez@blocknetworks.com.mx
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| 23:07 | <jammcq> i'm not in sales. what you need to do is send an email to erick tyack. his email addr is: etyack@DisklessWorkstations.com
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| 23:07 | but..... it makes me wonder if the routing issue will cause a problem
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| 23:07 | I'll have erick contact you instead
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| 23:08 | <tomcats_> ohh ok.. good thanks man
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| 23:09 | <jammcq> tomcats_: what's your real name?
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| 23:10 | <tomcats_> jammcq: Francisco Gonzalez
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| 23:11 | <jammcq> thanks, I'm sending the email now
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| 23:14 | <tomcats_> thank you..
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| 23:19 | <jammcq> robbie: howdie
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| 23:22 | ok kidz, I'm heading to bed
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| 23:22 | see ya'll later
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| 23:56 | <robbie> cya jim
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