IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

Channel log from 18 March 2011 (all times are UTC)

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02:04	<gnunux> hi
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03:05	<no_mind_> ping anyone around ?
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03:11	<alkisg> !question
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03:12	<alkisg> Hmmm bot's still down
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03:12	<alkisg> "Don't ask to ask a question, just ask it"
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04:11	<no_mind_> I have an ltsp setup on ubuntu 10.04 . What I am noticing for few days that suddenly the performance of the box degrades. All clients are slow to respond. This happens randomly any time during the day. Reboot fixes the problem. How do I find the cause of performance degrade
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04:23	<wima1> no_mind_: wat doe top tell you? is the load very high, is IO wait high? ...
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04:24	<no_mind_> wima1: top reports load between 0.8 to 1.2
04:24	<wima1> in general, or when it is going slow?
04:25	<no_mind_> in general or when it is going slow
04:25	it is the clients that go slow
04:25	server works fine
04:25	how do I find out IO wait ?
04:25	<wima1> in top, 3rd line. %wa
04:26	it shows the nr of processes in wait. which is usually IO
04:27	should be very low in generql
04:28	if it gets higher than ~10%, you will see the load climbing up very fast
04:28	<no_mind_> its varrying between 1.2 - 1.4
04:28	ni is 93%
04:29	oops ni is 0% but id is over 90%
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04:31	<wima1> idle, that's fine :)
04:32	and the clients are very slow at this very moment?
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04:44	<msignor_work> Anyone able to steer me in a direction to figure out why no one can login to LDM other than root?
04:44	<no_mind_> wima1: yes clients are very slow
04:45	wima1: I have 32 GB RAm with total of 16 cores
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04:57	<alkisg> msignor_work: is that the server root account, or the client root account?
04:57	(you use different passwords on those 2? if not try to temporarily change the root password on the server)
04:57	And check the LTSP_FATCLIENT=False method I suggested yesterday
04:57	bbl
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05:12	<cVsup> how can define packages to pxe clients?
05:19	how can select packages to pxe?
05:30	how can select packages to pxe??
05:30	Last message repeated 1 time(s).
05:30	<cVsup> ltsp 4 have ltspadmin, in 5.1 what tool?
05:46	<wima1> no_mind_: sorry, i was away from my desk for a while... Anyway, if there is no problem with the server, and periodically all clients become very slow, I can only imagine it to be a network problem
05:49	<cVsup> hey somebody can help?
05:51	<muppis> cVsup, what you're actual looking for?
05:51	<cVsup> muppis i need select packages to boot pxe
05:52	<muppis> cVsup, so your client nic doesn't support pxe booting?
05:54	<cVsup> yes support
05:54	i need select packages to pxe
05:54	<muppis> I just don't follow you. To do what?
05:56	<cVsup> exist method to select packages in tftp image?
05:57	<muppis> Trying to install applications to be runned in client?
05:57	<cVsup> yes
05:58	<muppis> This should help to start: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSPKarmicLocalAppsFirefox
06:00	<cVsup> hm, thanks muppis
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06:02	<msignor_work> Are users on the "Server" considered to be the same users present on the "client"
06:02	i am having difficulty understanding if there are actually separate users I need to maintain
06:03	<muppis> msignor_work, you should not have any users in client, if you haven't purposly created one under chroot.
06:04	<msignor_work> muppis: ok - thats what I thought. alkisg has asked me to verify if I am loggin in as root on the client of server
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06:04	<muppis> Having printing problem. Locally runned Firefox switches to Letter instead A4 used here.
06:04	<msignor_work> (root can login to x, no one else can) - not sure how to tell what they logged into
06:05	sigh, nevermind - root@ltspXXX# is pretty obvious :)
06:05	<muppis> :)
06:10	<msignor_work> muppis: you know where I can enable more logging for ltsp? specifically so I can look at what kind of errors may be happening to prevent a login?
06:12	<wima1> i'm trying to set up a secondary dhcp server on my network, but I see very strange results...
06:12	eqch dhcp server has it's own pool of ip addresses
06:13	and each dhcp server uses itself as an application server
06:14	now it can happen that the pxe rom gets an address from a different server then the ltsp image
06:14	if this happens, the mouse doesn't work!
06:14	all the rest works fine...
06:15	ideas anyone?
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06:16	<msignor_work> do I need xorg and a window manager on my Server if I am using fatclients? no right?
06:17	<muppis> msignor_work, you can think fat clients as local installation, only loaded from over network.
06:18	msaul_ (~administr@CPE001cf0f564ef-CM0011ae00c1f8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #ltsp.
06:19	<msaul_> Hi, was wondering if I could get help ssh ing from server to client.
06:20	I can ssh from client to server, but other way get connection resfused on port 22
06:20	I'm using Edubuntu 10.10 LTSP
06:21	<Appiah> did you enable ssh server in the chroot?
06:22	and remeber to set a root passwd
06:24	<msaul_> That would probably be the problem. Let me check that out...
06:30	<msignor_work> Now I have taken a step backwards - I can not login as anyone now.. just says "no response from server: restarting" any suggestions?
06:31	<Appiah> msignor_work: what did you change?
06:31	like IP...
06:32	<msignor_work> honestly - i edited lts.con to set my fatclient to false for further troubleshooting, per another user here
06:32	when it broke, i undid it and now its the same - lol. i see the request initiated in the SSH log on the server, just nothing else past that
06:33	<Appiah> well check the logs
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06:33	<Appiah> ltsp-update-sshkeys might help too
06:35	<msignor_work> appiah: do i need to be concerned with this - mountd[2034]: could not open /var/lib/nfs/.rmtab.lock for locking: errno 30 (Read-only file system)
06:35	this is following the successful mount statement for my NFS home folder
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07:09	<wima1> if i run ltsp-update-sshkeys, should i then also do a ltsp-update-image?
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07:25	<msignor_work> Does LTSP automatically assume the SSH server its connecting to is the host given during the DHCP initialization for boot? or is it in a config file somewhere?
07:27	<matrix3000> i thought it was a tftp config file?
07:28	<Gadi> msignor_work: by default, it will assume the same as the nbd server
07:28	msignor_work: you can set it in lts.conf with LDM_SERVER
07:29	<msignor_work> gadi: thanks, something is goofed up - i jumped the gun though and updated the ssh keys again and image - so it will be another hour before I can test again -- thanks again
07:32	<Gadi> msignor_work: not sure how much of the theory of operation you know already, but jic: when you log into ldm on the client, it sets up an ssh tunnel to the server using the creds you provide. Then, for local apps/fat client, it uses the tunnel to grab the auth info, so you never need to make users in the chroot
07:33	msignor_work: if you need to debug, you can set a "shell" on one screen and "ldm" on another. The shell will drop you to a sh prompt as root on the client
07:33	<cVsup> when start dbus on ltsp client return error
07:33	Could not create file /var/lib/dbus/machine-id:
07:34	Could not create file /var/lib/dbus/machine-id: Read-only file system
07:34	<Gadi> cVsup: are you on debian?
07:34	<cVsup> yes
07:34	<Gadi> debian uses NFS for the chroot and bind-mounts for rw dirs
07:35	<alkisg> [06:14] *** [wima1] if this happens, the mouse doesn't work! ==> that's usually when you send a different kernel with tftp, than the one on nfs/nbd
07:35	<Gadi> it therefore specifies all rw dirs
07:35	<cVsup> server:~/rdesktop-1.6.0#
07:35	ops
07:35	<Gadi> cVsup: if you have additional dirs that you need to be read-write, you need to edit a config file in the chroot
07:35	<wima1> ah, yes. that makes sense. Thanks!!
07:36	<cVsup> Gadi in lts.conf?
07:36	<Gadi> cVsup: no, it will be in the chroot
07:36	<alkisg> [06:05] *** [msignor_work] sigh, nevermind - root@ltspXXX# is pretty obvious :) ==> no it isn't, that's your session, I was asking about authentication, to see if ldm actually contacts the server or not
07:36	<Gadi> look for /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/..... I forget offhand the filename (I dont use debian)
07:37	!debian
07:37	damn
07:37	<alkisg> !no_bot_available :)
07:37	<Gadi> and there's no bot
07:37	<alkisg> Scotty said he'd resurrect it 1 week ago
07:40	[06:35] *** [msignor_work] appiah: do i need to be concerned with this - mountd[2034]: could not open /var/lib/nfs/.rmtab.lock for locking: errno 30 (Read-only file system) ==> yes, that means you don't use the normal ubuntu/nbd chroot anymore, something from your debian/nfs got mixed to it
07:42	<cVsup> Gadi
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07:43	<cVsup> i look for mtab and fstab but nothing found
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07:52	<Gadi> cVsup: it looks like these are the defaults: rw_dirs="/var/lib/xkb /var/log /var/spool /var/tmp /tmp /etc/console-setup /var/
07:52	lib/pulse /var/lib/dbus /var/cache/hald /var/cache/ltsp /var/lib/urandom"
07:52	and you can override in lts.conf with: LTSP_RW_DIRS
07:53	there's also:
07:53	copy_dirs="/root /home /var/cache/ltsp-localapps /etc/rsyslog.d /etc/cups /media
07:53	/etc/cron.d /etc/udev/rules.d"
07:53	and bindfiles="/etc/network/interfaces /etc/hostname /etc/hosts /etc/syslog.conf /et
07:53	c/fstab /etc/resolv.conf /etc/X11/xorg.conf /etc/passwd /etc/group /etc/localtim
07:53	e"
07:53	(see: /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ltsp/ltsp-bindmounts)
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08:06	<msignor_work> alkisg: this happened last night after I got home and changed the LTSP_FATCLIENT to false, and commented out the NFS info
08:07	alkisg: I don't have X installed on the server -- so I assume that is why it didn't work
08:07	when i un-did it however.. then it really broke
08:08	i still have my original ubuntu image from when you and I talked a few days ago (i made a backup)
08:08	<alkisg> msignor_work: can you test some things right now?
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08:12	<msignor_work_1> alkisg: sry - killed my net connection when i turned on VPN
08:13	<alkisg> (05:08:49 PM) alkisg: msignor_work: can you test some things right now?
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08:13	<msignor_work> alkisg: image is at 55% building. Also, I forgot to mention that I added the root_squash_fs, and I don't have the error anymore with the NFS lock
08:14	alkisg: If I can use the current image while the new one is building then I do whatever I need to now
08:14	<alkisg> msignor_work: login as root since you can't do anything else
08:14	And pastebin a `ps aux` from your server and one from your client
08:14	If you don't want to show them at public, PM me with the link
08:15	<msignor_work> root will not let me login now..
08:15	let me make sure I didn't typo anything in lts.conf... thats the only file I edited other than my exports
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08:22	<msignor_work> alkisg: http://pastebin.com/5JYEUz11 <-- server
08:23	alkisg: client wont let me do anything now.. just says "no response from server, restarting"
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08:24	<alkisg> msignor_work: put SCREEN_02=shell and SCREEN_07=ldm in lts.conf so that you have a shell in vt2
08:26	msignor_work: your LDM_SSHOPTIONS are wrong
08:26	They break your login
08:27	<msignor_work> aaahhhhh - ok.. makes sense.. what did I have wrong?
08:27	<alkisg> An unfinished -o at the end
08:27	LDM_SSHOPTIONS="-o StrictHostKeyChecking=no -o CheckHostIP=no -o LogLevel=silent"
08:27	<msignor_work> ahhhh crap. i must of hit enter or something and clipped the end of it let me try that
08:30	alkisg: I owe you a beer or 3.
08:30	<alkisg> :)
08:31	<msignor_work> issue was 2 fold . I was not able to login as my non root user becaue I already had an X config in the folder
08:31	then in my attempt to troubleshoot i deleted half the line in lts
08:31	but i logged in as a non root user just now
08:37	<alkisg> (and I was wondering why you needed to update keys + image ... :))
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09:03	<cVsup> Gadi these files opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ltsp/ltsp-bindmounts none exist
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09:05	<cVsup> hmm found
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09:05	<cVsup> . /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/default/ltsp-client-setup
09:06	<msaul_> I needed to install ssh in chroot, then I use apt-get ssh
09:06	I get error: Err file:/media/cdrom/ maverick/main openssh-server amd64 1:5.5p1-4ubuntu4
09:06	File not found
09:07	I know path is not correct as per my CDROM on my server, was wondering if any solution...
09:16	I can use apt-get to install other apps, so I was curious for a "work-around" to install it...
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09:41	<cVsup> sombody can use rdesktop with smartcard?
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10:08	<jsass> hello everyone!
10:09	<evil_root> hi jsass
10:09	<jsass> whoops :)
10:09	Nick change: jsass -> _UsUrPeR__
10:09	<evil_root> lol
10:09	<_UsUrPeR__> on another computer >_>
10:10	<evil_root> use a bouncer ;)
10:10	<_UsUrPeR__> I am afraid to admit this, but I am too lazy to ghost my other account
10:10	<evil_root> thats funny as hell
10:11	<_UsUrPeR__> ok, so I am trying to get a DVI output working with a VIA VX800 chipset.
10:11	I swear that I had it working two days ago with DVI, but that seems to be a fading memory now
10:11	what I am seeing now is a horribly unusable and distorted screen when the client gets to ldm
10:12	<evil_root> thats weird as hell, you using dvi to dvi or are you converting dvi to vga or hdmi?
10:13	<_UsUrPeR__> HOWEVER, if I put the "X_OPTION_01 = "\"ForcePanel\" \"true\"" option in, the client works properly at a 640x480 resolution
10:14	evil_root: naw, VIA chipsets and chrome 9 hardware always have given issues
10:14	err "been issues" I should say
10:14	though typically there's some weird workaround, I am having problems finding one on my own this time.
10:15	<evil_root> yea sorry but i have never herd of it
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10:20	<Gadi> _UsUrPeR__: take out that option and try setting resolution with: XRANDR_MODE_0
10:23	<_UsUrPeR__> Gadi: one moment
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10:25	<_UsUrPeR__> gadi: without force_panel enabled, the screen appears to have an improper refresh rate
10:25	everything is illegible
10:27	<Gadi> _UsUrPeR__: do you use a panel?
10:27	if not, dont force a panel
10:27	<_UsUrPeR__> gadi: yes. Plugged in with DVI
10:28	<Gadi> thats not a panel
10:28	<_UsUrPeR__> ?
10:28	<Gadi> panel == lvds panel
10:28	<_UsUrPeR__> oh. OH
10:28	well no, certainly not then :
10:28	)
10:28	<Gadi> the only reason you get 640x480 is that you now have an additional xrandr channel
10:28	and it is using its modes
10:29	can you get to a legible shell?
10:29	or ssh in?
10:29	<_UsUrPeR__> Gadi: no. I had to set up SSH
10:29	but I can SSH in
10:29	alkisg (~alkisg@ubuntu/member/alkisg) joined #ltsp.
10:29	<Gadi> if you ssh in, take a look at:
10:29	1. xorg log file
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10:30	<Gadi> 2. export DISPLAY and XAUTHORITY to the proper values and run xrandr
10:30	cVsup (~cVsup@189.12.14.211) joined #ltsp.
10:30	<Gadi> 1. will tell you what modes/frequencies it is using
10:30	2. will tell you what outputs it sees
10:30	<_UsUrPeR__> interesting results I just had: http://pastebin.com/QNrRvama
10:30	this particular lts.conf works
10:30	just got it working.
10:31	<JamesB192> (silly)I don't suppose it could be a flat panel attached to the dvi plug at the back of his box but connected via the analog signal lines(/silly)
10:32	<_UsUrPeR__> like a DVI > VGA adapter?
10:32	that's typically something that has not worked well... at least for me.
10:33	<alkisg> Hi all. _UsUrPeR__: is the new ltsp logo released under some specific license, so that it can be included in some distro themes etc?
10:34	* _UsUrPeR__ runs away to ask his co-workers while waving his hands like Grover
10:34	<alkisg> :)
10:36	msignor_work (~test@24.115.67.19.res-cmts.sesp.ptd.net) joined #ltsp.
10:36	Lns (~Lns@pdpc/supporter/professional/lns) joined #ltsp.
10:39	<_UsUrPeR__> alkisg: go for it. Alexc says "that's cool"
10:40	<alkisg> _UsUrPeR__: unfortunately it needs to be written down somewhere to be included in a distro
10:40	Maybe put a small paragraph in the ltsp.org site somewhere
10:40	Or a .zip file that contains the .png or .svg an a small readme
10:41	<_UsUrPeR__> alkisg: oh, in that case, I'll let him know that he needs to ccl it. Use it forthwith. We will make that change shortly.
10:41	<alkisg> Nice. I'll try to make an ldm theme that has the logo on it
10:42	As the old logo with the yellow letters completely sucks :)
10:42	*the old theme
10:48	<highvoltage> alkisg: I almost finished a debian ldm theme yesterday (going to give it some polish tomorrow) and hopefully vagrant can sponsor it :)
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10:49	<alkisg> highvoltage: cool!
10:49	Let us have a peek when you finish it
10:51	<msignor_work> Is it possible / advisable to install new packages when logged into a terminal as root?
10:51	<_UsUrPeR__> msignor_work, in a terminal chroot, or a booted terminal?
10:51	<msignor_work> booted terminal
10:52	i just want to try and avoid having to remake the image every time, heh
10:52	<alkisg> They'll get lost on reboot
10:52	<_UsUrPeR__> msignor_work: as long as the client will resolve correctly via DNS, the file system is temporary. If the program you are installing is small, it should work
10:52	though alkisg is correct: your changes will be lost on reboot
10:53	<alkisg> msignor_work: then switch to nfs ;)
10:53	<msignor_work> ah, ok. well seems reasonable enough. I figured that was the case :-)
10:53	lol
10:53	<alkisg> It'll be 3 times slower (if you have compression enabled, that is) but you won't have to rebuild the image on each change
10:54	<msignor_work> yeah, well i think the tradeoff for performance is better
10:54	my server is only 500mhz so it takes a while
10:54	although, i am sure I could do it on another machine and copy it
10:54	<alkisg> Mount it with nfs or sshfs and do it on a remove cpu
10:55	So that you don't have to transfer it
10:55	<msignor_work> wow, even better point
10:55	<alkisg> E.g. you can use your fat client cpu
10:55	;)
10:56	*remote
10:56	<msignor_work> do I need to worry about any of the kernel or ssh key stuff? should just be a mount and then run the command correct?
10:56	<alkisg> with the ldm_sshoptions line you're using, you don't need to worry about keys
10:56	(and you wouldn't need to, anyway)
10:56	<msignor_work> ah, true. cool - sounds like a good solution then
10:57	I've got to say - this is pretty darn cool
10:57	<alkisg> Mount with nfs (don't forget no_root_squash) and you're ready to go
10:59	<msignor_work> yeap - just added that to all my exports
10:59	bbl - thanks again!
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11:02	roasted___ (4bc3a2d8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.195.162.216) joined #ltsp.
11:03	<roasted___> Question - I have an old celeron box here with 128 RAM I'm trying to connect to the LTSP box. It succeeds, but if I open a lot of applications at once, it crashes and goes back to the log in screen. Likewise, I have a P4 box with 128 ram that does NOT exhibit this issue.
11:04	<alkisg> Try putting NBD_SWAP=True in lts.conf
11:04	<roasted___> Are you thinking it's due to it only having 128 ram?
11:04	<alkisg> Yes
11:05	<roasted___> I had 256 in it and it worked fine, but I wanted to give it as little RAM as possible to see how it works.
11:05	If it's cause of the RAM, why do you think the other P4 128mb box works fine?
11:05	<alkisg> Not shared video ram? Local swap partition? Opening different programs that don't require X pixmaps?
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11:06	<roasted___> I'm opening the exact same programs. I have desktop icons for the same apps on each, I just select all and hit open. I just wanted to try and "bench" what this LTSP setup can handle with the limited hardware I have on the client ends.
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11:06	<roasted___> It's firefox, dictionary, calculator, libre office writer/calc/presentation.
11:06	<alkisg> I've seen firefox and openoffice needing 512 ram on a thin client
11:07	<roasted___> So each one I highlight and bam - open all at once. P4 box works fine, the other does not. Besides the proc differences (celeron vs P4) I wasnt sure why the P4 box NEVER failed yet the celly did.
11:07	<alkisg> So it crashed until I gave them 512 nbd swap
11:07	<roasted___> so it going back to the login screen is just a sign my thin client hardware is too limited
11:07	and its fallback is to bail out and get to login screen?
11:08	Yeah you called it. Looks like it's Firefox.
11:08	I can open dictionary, calc, etc one at a time. Once I hit FF it locks.
11:08	<alkisg> It depends on the page you visit
11:08	<roasted___> Just kind of surprised the other box works fine. But it IS different hardware.
11:09	It's just our district home page on both boxes.
11:09	ha, it loaded
11:09	just took forever
11:09	<Lns> roasted__, to verify, use xrestop on the client to monitor the local ram usage
11:10	<roasted___> Lns: I will. I just locked it up again...
11:10	<Lns> but FF/OOo are huge resource hogs, even on an ltsp client. trust me. i've dealt with it a lot ;)
11:11	<roasted___> Yeah. Even still, FF/ Libre OFfice writer/excel/powerpoint were opened on BOTH. and BOTH had 128 ram. that's what htrew me off.
11:11	<Lns> roasted__, what gets them to lock up is when you start to actually load the local xpixmap memory up with images.
11:12	such as loading websites with gfx, or inserting clipart into OOo document (and even just moving it around a bit)
11:12	lots of times it won't let go of the pixmap memory, clogging it up until the machine locks.
11:12	<roasted___> where within xrestop am I looking?
11:14	<Lns> roasted__, pxm mem i believe
11:14	or just total..for the procs you're monitoring
11:15	with usage and that terminal open, you'll see the usage climb steadily
11:16	<roasted___> I'm a little confused though. Is it loading this stuff to the local ram on the client?
11:16	I thought it used the server ram unles otherwise specified
11:18	<Lns> roasted__, for pixmaps, a lot of programs will use local video/memory to store images (imagine if every screen/pixel update required it to travel through the network)
11:19	<_UsUrPeR__> alkisg: about the nbd_swap=true option: does that require a file in /etc/ltsp/nbdswapd.conf?
11:19	...or is that just to expand the amount of swap space on the client?
11:19	I am unsure about what the standard swap space is...
11:19	<alkisg> _UsUrPeR__: yes, the default without that file is 64 I think
11:19	Used to be 32
11:19	* alkisg would like to raise that to 512, since it's sparse files anyway
11:20	<alkisg> sparse==they don't take up space unless they're actually used
11:20	<_UsUrPeR__> roasted__: for the record, the nomenclature inside that file is: "SIZE=128" or whatever the size of the swap file you want in there is in megs
11:20	(without quotes)
11:21	* Lns waves to everyone in #ltsp as it's been a few months since he's been online here =)
11:21	<_UsUrPeR__> hey dude. how's it going?
11:21	<Lns> It's going well _UsUrPeR_ =) how have you been?
11:22	<_UsUrPeR__> well enough. Things are weird over here at the moment for me at the moment. Bleh :P
11:22	VIA chipsets
11:22	<Lns> weird? hehe
11:22	if it weren't weird, it wouldn't be interesting.
11:22	nesusvet (~nesusvet@195.218.191.242) joined #ltsp.
11:23	<_UsUrPeR__> Yeah! New, strange challenges.
11:23	like some sort of puzzle...
11:23	horrible, horrible puzzle ;)
11:23	<Lns> ha! =p
11:24	alkisg, how are you? =)
11:24	<alkisg> Hey Lns, long time no see
11:24	<Lns> i know =) everything going good for you?
11:25	<alkisg> Yup. Still working with LTSP? Or not so much anymore?
11:25	<nesusvet> hello guys :). I have one question. If i will build client with ---fat-client. Would an LTSP image be builded with X11 packages or not?
11:25	<alkisg> nesusvet: yes
11:25	<Lns> not a lot aside from my own personal setups. i'm hoping that will change, but atm I'm working on a prototype for a linux-ready mini-itx pc to offer the world
11:25	<nesusvet> How to disable X11 at all before installation?
11:26	<alkisg> nesusvet: you want a fat client without X?
11:26	<Lns> nesusvet, why install fat-client if you don't want x11?
11:26	seems strange to me
11:26	<alkisg> Like a cluster for computations or something?
11:28	<nesusvet> Because i need only linux environment. I am using LTSP in order to start big clusters :). But i change many packages under chroot environment, after installation. And X11 is a little annoy :)
11:28	<alkisg> fat clients == they login locally with ldm
11:28	Since you won't have X, you won't use ldm, so you can't use authentication from server with ldm+ssh
11:29	So you can just install any packages you want on a thin chroot
11:29	And handle authentication manually
11:29	<nesusvet> yes, I wrote to this chat 6 month ago, and we found out all solution which i need, but maybe something was changed.
11:30	alkisg, thanks, anyway.
11:33	by the way, how many machines i could load via NBD?
11:34	<alkisg> I'm not aware of any hard limits
11:34	<nesusvet> ok.
11:35	<roasted___> sorry was afk
11:38	So by default, if I boot a client with 128 ram, does it actually utilize that ram for local processing?
11:38	Like OOo and FF load right to that RAM and not the server RAM?
11:41	<Lns> roasted__, no. FF/OOo will still load on the server unless you specify it as a localapp. The difference is that those programs use local pixmap caching, which utilizes local client memory.
11:42	<roasted___> Lns: so realistically, if I make OOo and FF local apps, Id make everything worse. Right?
11:42	assuming I stay at 128 ram
11:42	<Lns> uhhh, yeah.
11:42	it probably won't work at all if you try that. =p
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11:43	<Lns> I've tried localapp firefox on an atom 1.6GHz cpu with a gig of ram, and it's still hard to use.
11:43	<roasted___> Lns: where do I specify local apps?
11:43	<Lns> roasted__, google 'ltsp localapps' ;)
11:43	<alkisg> Lns: hard to use with 1 gig ram? what do you mean?
11:43	<Lns> lots of info online
11:43	alkisg, well not the memory part but even the atom CPU couldn't handle firefox very well
11:44	<roasted___> Lns: with a standard array of apps: audacity, gimp, exaile, firefox, inkscape, libre office, is there anything that would make sense to use as local apps and others that make sense to use as server apps?
11:44	<alkisg> Youtube, pet society etc work fine on my daughter's atom
11:44	roasted___: with 128 mb ram you don't want any localapps at all :)
11:45	<Lns> roasted__, any app that needs 3D/heavy graphics support would be ideal in a localapp. but ^^^ too. ;)
11:45	<alkisg> If you have more than 256, you can start thinking about localapps
11:45	<roasted___> Lns: I certainly hope you are incorrect about that, as we are looking to get thin clients with atom procs and 1gb ram. This CANNOT Fail on us...
11:45	<Lns> roasted__, test test test is all i can advise!
11:45	<roasted___> alkisg: I was looking more along the lines of 512mb to 1gb of RAM. That being said, are there any apps that would make sense to run locally?
11:45	<alkisg> Sure, all of them :D
11:45	<roasted___> Lns: I am. But we almost dont have a choice but to go the thin client route. Everything else we tried sucks. LTSP is the only one that offers true hope...
11:45	* alkisg uses fat clients for clients with >= 512 RAM
11:46	<Lns> atom CPUs are great but still not as good as core 2 duos ;)
11:46	<roasted___> school distrit budgets are crunching like no other.
11:46	<nesusvet> Guys, what i have to change within deb packages in order to disable X11 dependencies within ltsp-standalone-server?
11:46	<roasted___> alkisg: do you really think all apps would work locally with 512 ram?
11:46	<alkisg> nesusvet: the server doesn't depend on X. Are you talking about the client?
11:46	<roasted___> alkisg: it makes me nervous doing that considering what Lns said regarding 1gb RAM with firefox........
11:46	<Lns> roasted__, no disregard what i said about the 1gb ram
11:47	it was my CPU that was the bottleneck.
11:47	<alkisg> roasted___: 512 with atom is the limit I would put on "fat client better than thin client"
11:47	Anything better than that surely behaves better than as a thin client
11:48	So while 512 with local firefox is stretching it a bit, it's better than the same machine as thin
11:48	<nesusvet> alkisg, sorry, yes, i mean the client.
11:48	<Lns> With ram prices, 1GB is really ideal over 512 just to leave room for expansion..you want to focus on your CPU at that point to see if it can handle the apps with the performance you're looking for.
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11:49	* Lns waits patiently for HTML5 to spread across and make flash a bit less necessary
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11:50	<roasted___> alkisg: I think Ineed to do a little reading on fat clients vs thin, because I'm having a hard time understanding how a fat client could run more efficiently than thin without feeding it a TON of processing power to the clients themselves.
11:50	<alkisg> nesusvet: I believe the easiest thing to do would be to build a chroot with X and then try to remove them. But do you really want to remove them? Or you can just leave them there and not use them?
11:50	roasted___: forget the fat. Think "thin vs local installations"
11:51	Which runs better, an atom as a thin client, or an atom with a locally installed linux?
11:51	<nesusvet> alkisg, I know the way how-to leave them there and not use, at the moment i want to remove :)
11:51	<alkisg> nesusvet: ok, I don't have any advice as the dependencies are complex
11:52	<nesusvet> alkisg, thanks.
11:52	got it
11:52	<alkisg> np
11:52	<roasted___> alkisg: so bottom line is, thin clients are for bare minimal use. Fat clients come with better performance when you have clients that have more onboard hardware.
11:53	<alkisg> roasted___: I'd put it as "thin clients are good when you don't want much UI"
11:53	Little scrolling, no youtube videos, no oo presentations
11:53	<roasted___> alkisg: I see. LTSP defaults entirely to thin from a base install, right?
11:53	<alkisg> No 3d apps etc. But if you want processing power, you got lots there
11:54	Yes, unless you use the --fat-client option.
11:54	https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
11:54	<Lns> roasted__, case-in-point: Thin clients are good for general purpose (think a library research station). For full-fledged computer labs, fat-clients/local installs are preferred.
11:54	I found this out the hard way ;)
11:55	<roasted___> Lns: I understand. I'm just trying to think a little bit here... we're using existing hardware to get LTSP off the ground. These boxes are Pentium 4s with 512MB RAM. I'm trying to think about which would work best in that case, and I'm also trying to think about what would work best when we purchase actual thin client boxes.
11:55	<Lns> BUT the bigger issue you will face in a school environment is staff resistance, govt. software requirements and ongoing support.
11:55	msaul_ (~administr@CPE001cf0f564ef-CM0011ae00c1f8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #ltsp.
11:55	<roasted___> LIke I'm trying to think... if we get thin client boxes, do we get 2gb of RAM in the boxes or would 1gb be enough to future proof the client boxes for a while?
11:55	and processing wise, is an atom enough for a thin client? etc.
11:55	<Lns> roasted__, for your current systems LTSP is a great fit (using P4s as thin clients)
11:56	<msaul_> I got my chroot running ssh, and I recall someone mentioned to set root password
11:56	was wondering how I do this chroot...
11:56	<Lns> CPU wise I would stay away from Atoms if you're looking to do a lot of local processing. A simple (I.E. not FF/OOo) localapp won't be an issue, but again, test.
11:57	<roasted___> Lns: good deal. Now if I say we are upgrading clients this summer... what spec would you aim for for the clients?
11:57	for fat clients
11:57	<Lns> msaul_, sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/<arch>, passwd
11:57	<alkisg> roasted___: with that specific boxes, and if you really have the time to invest, localapps would be the best. I.e. some apps local, some remote.
11:57	<roasted___> 1gb ram and naything better than an atom?
11:57	<msaul_> OK, thanks...
11:58	<roasted___> alkisg: yeah I'm just concerned about spending money and it backfiring. I want to make the best educated guess I can when I need to get new lcients.
11:58	alkisg: tax payer money is a funny thing. You need to spend it wisely as if your life depends on it, because in some cases, it just might.
11:58	<alkisg> roasted___: for fat clients, boot the client from an external usb disk an test.
11:58	vvinet (~vince@2001:470:8829:1000:227:eff:fe25:ee64) joined #ltsp.
11:58	<alkisg> If the os runs fine locally, it will also run fine as fat
11:58	There's no difference there.
11:59	<roasted___> alkisg: I see. I'm just talking about purchasing hardware I don't have. Like if I look at a chart of vendors selling ultra small PCs/client boxes, which one spec wise would be the best.
11:59	<alkisg> Go to a store and boot netbooks with similar specs off a usb stick :)
11:59	<_UsUrPeR__> gadi: about exporting for xrandr: the only resolution shown by xrandr for the connected monitor is 640x480, and adding new monitor resolutions doesn't seem to have an effect
11:59	<Lns> roasted__, think of fat-clients as centrally administrated machines that do all their own processing. So you'll want modern hardware specs that your OS recommends.
11:59	<alkisg> Do you think an atom with 1 Gb runs fine? My personal view is "so and so". My daughter doesn't like it because it can't run modern games. But for firefox+flash with 1-2 tabs it's ok
11:59	<roasted___> alkisg: well I have a netbook at home. that might be a good test.
12:00	Lns: I understand. It's just you get to a certain point where I don't want these clients to have THAT much hardware that their price shoots up.
12:00	<highvoltage> alkisg: hmm, I run more tabs than that on my atom with 1GB RAM (even with flash) and it's quite ok
12:00	<roasted___> If we begin to flirt with the line of "were saving next to nothing with this LTSP setup" then I have to wonder why we would get it.
12:01	<alkisg> highvoltage: try pet society :D The damn thing is toooo heavy :D
12:01	<highvoltage> not as nice as one more powerful machine, but still
12:01	<Gadi> _UsUrPeR__: yeah, I actually think I have seen that case before - with openchrome drivers - having to set PanelSize option - I think on Lucid?
12:01	<roasted___> yeah my netbook runs ubuntu 10.10 great on it, 1gb of ram. I've had gimp, open office, and flash going on firefox with upwards of 8 tabs just fine
12:01	<highvoltage> alkisg: aah, my flash is limited to videos, not games. I guess those are a different kettle of fish :)
12:01	<Lns> roasted__, central administration is your killer feature if you're looking to do fat-client-only LTSP. Which is totally awesome in itself.
12:01	<alkisg> highvoltage: I don't know how, but kids those days select the most cpu-demanding web sites... like they have a talent for it
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12:01	<highvoltage> alkisg: but surely you can only play one flash game at a time? :)
12:02	<alkisg> Well, they tend to leave 1 tab open, switch to the other to chat, then open a video the friend told them to, then return to the game...
12:02	<roasted___> Lns: yeah, but we're looking for electricity savings as well. the more hardware that goes into a box, the more watts it'll eat. So I'm trying to watch all angles. It's not about making my job easy. It's about making smart economic decisions.
12:02	<alkisg> at that point they scream "my pc is too slow" :D
12:02	<Lns> roasted__, it's a delicate balance. ;)
12:03	<_UsUrPeR__> Gadi: I am prepared to "call it" unless you can think of anything else I can try out. It's confusing how force panel works, but I can't seem to get a proper image out of the monitor otherwise.
12:03	<roasted___> Lns: what thin/fat client boxes would you recommend? I saw an ASus EEE Box that looked nice...
12:03	<Lns> Although I applaud your use of open source software, in whatever form, with education. Teaching our future generations what open source is about will help them think differently than those who created empires upon locked-down systems.
12:03	<Gadi> _UsUrPeR__: my brain cells are coming up with PanelSize and setting X_VIRTUAL
12:03	but, the brain cells are old an weak
12:04	I think X_VIRUTAL was to keep the monitor from panning
12:04	<alkisg> X_VIRUSAL?
12:04	* Gadi kicks alksig
12:04	<Gadi> :)
12:04	<alkisg> :P
12:05	<Lns> roasted__, for thin, use your existing P4s with >=512MB RAM.
12:05	<_UsUrPeR__> :)
12:05	* Lns hands Gadi a beer
12:05	<roasted___> Lns: again, were getting new stuff this summer
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12:05	<Gadi> wow an unsolicited beer
12:05	<roasted___> Lns: that gear will only work as our test bed UNTIL june.
12:05	<Lns> Gadi, =p how goes it?
12:05	<Gadi> better with beer
12:06	<Lns> roasted__, well I've had success with both disklessworkstations.com thin clients (1220 PXE is what i use) and also Gadi can tell you about his thin clients
12:06	haha
12:06	* Lns waits for the mom jokes to start rolling in
12:06	<roasted___> Lns: these are all Atom based.
12:07	Are there any without Atoms so I can see other alternatives?
12:07	<alkisg> roasted___: for new equipment, I'd go for dual core
12:07	<_UsUrPeR__> I actually did try xvirtual. Not sure what it did. the screen was still scrolling and garbled
12:07	<alkisg> Don't have any specific advice
12:07	<Lns> roasted__, what are all atom-based?
12:07	<roasted___> alkisg: dual core atoms or just anything dual core?
12:07	Lns: disklessworkstations.com under ltsp
12:08	<Lns> 1220PXEs are via
12:08	<roasted___> I thought VIA was to be avoided
12:09	<Lns> why?
12:09	works flawlessly for me as a tc
12:09	always has
12:09	<roasted___> I heard some negative opinions about VIA in here the other day...
12:09	<alkisg> roasted___: let's say something over 1000 in that scale: http://www.cpubenchmark.net/common_cpus.html
12:09	<Lns> opinions are like ....well..
12:09	=p
12:10	<roasted___> yeah, but when you have quite a few siding the same way, its hard to ignore
12:10	<_UsUrPeR__> that was me about an hour ago ;) 1220 doesn't have DVI so you'll be fine
12:10	I am working with an HP thin client at the moment
12:10	<roasted___> no, this was a few days ago
12:11	<_UsUrPeR__> oh. huh. Well we will support what we sell.
12:11	oh hi, my name is Joel and I work for disklessworkstations.com
12:11	* _UsUrPeR__ tips his hat
12:11	<roasted___> someone found me an idea on newegg and someone else said no, its got VIA. and then the one who linked me was like, aw yeah I missed that, stay away from VIA, etc...
12:11	nice to meet you :
12:11	:)
12:12	I'm trying to see if we can find some ultra low powered small form factor dual core towers that arent too costly that could do the job too
12:13	<Lns> so, you want...everything. ;)
12:13	<roasted___> doesnt everybody?
12:13	I'm just trying to look at all scenarios.
12:13	I feel confident I could get a few hundred EEE Box 1007's (1.66 atom 1gb ram) and do just fine with a few servers.
12:14	but if I can maximize it while I got the chance, why not?
12:14	<alkisg> roasted___: for fat clients you don't need CPU on the server
12:14	So fast network + fast disk could serve lots of fat clients
12:15	<roasted___> yeah. I'm just trying to weigh some of our options here.
12:16	I think I'm going to set up a test bed right now with a few P4 boxes with 512 ram
12:16	and compare them, fat vs thin
12:16	off my dual core laptop as the server and see wuz up
12:16	I just have to add the fat client tag when building the client image, right?
12:17	<alkisg> P4 at how many MHz/GHz?
12:17	--fat-client, right
12:17	<roasted___> uh, I'm not positive actually. one second.
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12:17	<roasted___> so I would do sudo ltsp-build-client --arch i386 --fat-client
12:17	<alkisg> Yup
12:18	<roasted___> and if I want to bounce back to thin, just --thin-client ??
12:18	<_UsUrPeR__> gadi: is this the option you are describing? X_OPTION_01 = "\"Virtual\" \"1920 1200\""
12:18	<roasted___> alkisg: I think these are 2.4's
12:18	<alkisg> roasted___: in lts.conf, you specify LTSP_FATCLIENT=False
12:18	<roasted___> alkisg: though some older compaq boxes we have are P4s at 1.8. they'd be the slowest we have.
12:19	<alkisg> No need to build 2 chroots, one can serve both thin + fat
12:19	<roasted___> alkisg: no kidding?
12:19	<alkisg> Nope
12:19	<roasted___> how does the server know which image to load on the client?
12:19	<Gadi> _UsUrPeR__: no, just: X_VIRUTAL = "1280 1024"
12:19	damn
12:19	X_VIRTUAL
12:19	(if only I could type)
12:19	<alkisg> roasted___: the fat image is always used. It doesn't need more ram than the thin image, until the login screen (ldm)
12:20	And then LTSP_FATCLIENT tells the client to login locally or on the server
12:20	<roasted___> alkisg: the fat image is only always used when I initiate the --fat-client command, right? I wouldn't be using it now I wouldnt think...
12:21	<_UsUrPeR__> lol
12:21	<alkisg> roasted___: yes
12:22	<roasted___> I guess I just dont want to initiate the fat setup if I'm going to have some clients that wont be able to handle it
12:22	<alkisg> roasted___: any client that can boot from a thin image, can also boot from a fat image
12:22	Actually the fat image requires 2-3 MB less RAM
12:22	(don't ask my why)
12:23	<roasted___> The difference (correct me if I'm wrong) lies in HOW the processing of applications takes place, based on the image. If it's thin, it'll rely on the server. If it's fat, it'll rely on local resources.
12:23	<_UsUrPeR__> Gadi: X_VIRTUAL = "1024 768" same results. Screen garbled, looks like a bad refresh rate
12:24	strangely enough, the force panel option works, but only up to 1400x1050
12:24	which, according to openchrome docs, is the highest resolution ever ;)
12:24	<alkisg> roasted___: No. A fat image can be used for both thin and fat clients. Thin clients booted from a fat image will do the processing on the server.
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12:25	<alkisg> A fat image can do whatever a thin image can do (i.e. serve thin clients). In addition, it can also serve fat clients.
12:25	<Gadi> _UsUrPeR__: that is very high - for a panel
12:25	;)
12:25	<roasted___> alkisg: so a fat image is just more versatile to use.
12:25	fat - fat/thin. thin - only thin
12:25	<alkisg> roasted___: yes. It's also bigger, which makes "ltsp-update-image" slower. And that's about all its drawback.
12:26	<roasted___> is the update-image command the same for fat and thin?
12:26	<alkisg> Yes
12:26	<_UsUrPeR__> Gadi: haha
12:27	<roasted___> I guess I'm just having trouble understanding how the setup knows the difference. If I use a fat client image, that means thin and fat clients can boot to the LTSP server. Okay, great... but I'm just tyring to grasp how the actual clients know WHERE to do their processing. AFter all, they're getting the same image. How would the client know to do local processing vs server processing?
12:28	<alkisg> roasted___: I told you above, with the LTSP_FATCLIENT variable from ltsconf
12:28	<Lns> roasted__, you need to read up on the wikis/docs/etc about all of this, it takes time to learn the ins and outs of it all
12:28	knowledge is power!
12:28	<roasted___> the thing is, I have read it.
12:28	<alkisg> It's a bit more complicated actually. LTSP_FATCLIENT defaults to true for fat chroots, and to false for thin chroots
12:29	<roasted___> I've been over this hundred page pdf a dozen times
12:29	<alkisg> So when a client boots from a fat chroot, it prefers to be fat
12:29	But there's another variable, FAT_RAM_THRESHOLD
12:29	With a default value of 500, if I remember well
12:29	<roasted___> so now that I ran --fat-client on my laptop and its currently building a fat image, do I need to change the FATCLIENT varaible in lts.conf or is that only if I have a mix of fat/thin clients?
12:29	<alkisg> So any clients with <500 RAM will by default be booted as thin, while > 500 as fat, IF they are booted from a fat chroot
12:30	<roasted___> fat chroot - the fat image itself. right.
12:30	* Lns is now attempting to install nvidia drivers on newly upgraded lenny-->squeeze box. will be back soon (hopefully) ;)
12:30	<alkisg> So. You run ltsp-build-client --fat-client
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12:30	<roasted___> yes
12:30	<alkisg> At that point any clients with <500 ram will boot as thin, and with >500 ram as fat
12:30	<roasted___> (plus --arch i386)
12:30	Lns (~Lns@pdpc/supporter/professional/lns) left irc: Quit: Leaving
12:30	<alkisg> Now suppose you want a specific client with 700 RAM to be booted as thin
12:30	You'd put LTSP_FATCLIENT=False in lts.conf for that client
12:31	<roasted___> alkisg: so I only add the variable in lts.conf if I want to change the default behavior? (the 500 meg portion)
12:31	<alkisg> Right
12:31	<roasted___> how does false know to go to 700?
12:32	<alkisg> [mac:address] section in lts.conf
12:32	[01:02:03:04:05:06]
12:32	LTSP_FATCLIENT=False
12:32	<roasted___> is there no way to set it to all?
12:32	<alkisg> [Default]
12:32	LTSP_FATCLIENT=False
12:32	Standard lts.conf methods
12:33	<roasted___> So if I want to be selective on which clients have the newfound 700mb threshold, I do it by MAC. If I want EVERYBODY to be treated equal, I set it in default.
12:33	<alkisg> Right
12:33	<roasted___> last question
12:33	How does it know to threshold at 700? Is it designed to be 500 first, and 700 if false?
12:34	<alkisg> No that was an example
12:34	The threshold is at 500
12:34	So for example a client with 700 will be fat by default
12:34	<roasted___> oh okay. I was just trying to figure out where the numbers came in at
12:34	OH
12:34	<alkisg> And if you want it to be thin, you specify LTSP_FATCLIENT=False
12:34	<roasted___> I thought you meant changing that threshold to 700
12:35	so anything below 700 is thin, anything above is fat
12:35	<alkisg> If you want to, you can do that too
12:35	[Default]
12:35	FAT_RAM_THRESHOLD=700
12:35	<roasted___> awesome
12:35	taking these notes down quick...
12:35	<msaul_> hi, I set root passwd in chroot, but I think I need to perform something to allow me access to other users I created (i.e. I get "Permission Denied")..
12:35	<alkisg> roasted___: or just use `man lts.conf` :)
12:36	<msaul_> like ssh testa@192.168.1.20 (when I issue from server)
12:36	<roasted___> alkisg: I hear ya. :P
12:37	alkisg: I just like to take notes, because there's a LOT I do here... I'd hate to bounce out and someone come in trying tofigure out what the hell I was doing.
12:37	alkisg: the 500 meg limit wasn't an example, was it? That's ACTUALLY what LTSP defaults as. right?
12:37	<alkisg> Right
12:38	roasted___: erm, nope
12:38	As I said "if I remember well"
12:38	I didn't - it's actually 300
12:38	ltsp-trunk/client/ltsp_config: FAT_RAM_THRESHOLD=${FAT_RAM_THRESHOLD:-300}
12:38	<roasted___> so it is 300?
12:38	<alkisg> Yes
12:41	<msaul_> Hi alkisg, was wondering how to setup in chroot access to account in thin client in ssh (ssh is running in chroot and set root password)..
12:42	I created another account "testa" and get permission denied
12:42	<alkisg> msaul_: you already asked in the channel :) I'll let others answer that one while I get a drink... ;)
12:42	<msaul_> Fair enough :) sorry...
12:46	<roasted___> I understand RAM is the most important thing with an LTSP setup. For fat clients, is the same true? Or would processing power for fat clients suddenly be more important, given the need to balance things out??
12:48	<alkisg> Thin clients don't need much ram. 64 is the bare minimum. Fat clients have the same specs as local installations. So, read the ubuntu page (or any distro page) for the recommented specs
12:49	For ubuntu lucid I think the recommentation was 1 Gb RA
12:49	<roasted___> ahhh
12:49	you said that
12:49	what, really?
12:50	looks like 512
12:50	1ghz proc
12:50	bobby_C (~bobby@85-124-22-227.teleworker.xdsl-line.inode.at) joined #ltsp.
12:51	<alkisg> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements
12:51	1 GHz x86 processor 1GB of system memory (RAM)
12:51	<roasted___> seems as if wikipedia is lying then
12:51	<alkisg> That's the recommented. Below, as minimum, it says 512
12:51	<roasted___> ahh
12:52	<alkisg> So anyway all this falls outside the ltsp scope - best asked in #ubuntu
12:52	<roasted___> naw, that's all I was curious about :P
12:52	<alkisg> msaul_: you can't ssh as user@ltsp14 because there's no such user in the chroot
12:53	msaul_: people that install ssh in the chroot usually ssh as root@ltsp14
12:53	To troubleshot/shutdown/reboot the client, nothing much
12:54	<msaul_> Ok, it was instructions on scp ing keys to client for italc
12:54	They mentioned scp - r <keypath> user@IPADDRESS:/tmp
12:56	I was able to ssh into root via chroot though - I see your point...
12:57	<alkisg> msaul_: there's no point to copying keys with ssh
12:57	They'll get lost on reboot
12:57	Put them to chroot. You don't need to unlock the root account for that.
12:57	I.e. sudo cp key /opt/l/tsp/i386/path/to/key
12:59	<msaul_> OK, that's good advice - I'll do that to see what happens - thanks
12:59	Do you know of any one that was setup and used italc? Just curious...
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13:11	<alkisg> msaul_: I used to use italc, until it proved to crash too often to be usable in classrooms
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13:23	<_UsUrPeR__> hey all
13:24	quick question: I am missing notes, and I swear this was discussed in here previously
13:24	There is a command that can be used to set BIOS times on clients based on an NTP server.
13:24	what is that command?
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13:25	<roasted___> do I have to update-image when I make changes to lts.conf?
13:25	<_UsUrPeR__> roasted__: no you do not
13:25	<roasted___> what about rebooting after build-image?
13:25	<_UsUrPeR__> you only need to update the image when you make a change to the /opt/ltsp/i386 directory
13:25	<roasted___> I thought so
13:25	wasnt positive though
13:26	<_UsUrPeR__> if you have rebuilt an image, you will need to reboot the clients so they may acquire the new image upon reboot
13:26	<roasted___> but not the server?
13:26	wait
13:26	I can rebuild while clients are logged in??
13:26	<alkisg> _UsUrPeR__: if you set the ntp server in lts.conf, then the cmos time is automatically updated... are you looking for a manual way to do it?
13:27	roasted___: yes
13:27	<roasted___> wow
13:27	that just seems strange :P
13:27	alkisg: how long have you worked with ltsp?
13:27	<alkisg> 3 years with linux/ltsp
13:27	<roasted___> have you done actual deployments for businesses/districts?
13:27	or do you just do backend work to make it happen?
13:28	<_UsUrPeR__> alkisg: oh, huh. What's the ntp server nomenclature? NTP_SERVER=<ipaddress>?
13:28	<alkisg> roasted___: deployed a few labs, but mostly backend work. About 200 schools so far switched to ltsp in greece: http://goo.gl/maps/nOoQ
13:29	<_UsUrPeR__> alkisg: you are actually living in greece right?
13:29	<alkisg> _UsUrPeR__: TIMESERVER
13:29	Yup
13:29	<_UsUrPeR__> so that makes it... what, 10pm for you right now?
13:29	<roasted___> nice. alkisg. I thought we were the only district in the area considering ltsp, but theres a neighboring district who's doing the same thing. in fact, we're meeting up next week to exchange friendly info.
13:29	<_UsUrPeR__> you are past GMT right?
13:29	roasted__: where are you located?
13:29	<roasted___> oddly enough I interviewed with that district, so it'll be weird to meet with them again
13:29	<alkisg> GMT+2
13:29	<roasted___> pennsylvania, USA
13:29	<_UsUrPeR__> ok, cool :)
13:29	<roasted___> the education system is hurting badly now
13:30	budget cuts are going like crazy
13:30	that's why this LTSP thing is like a godsend...
13:30	<_UsUrPeR__> yeah, saving bucks on clients is a good idea
13:30	I am surprised more schools don't use it
13:30	<alkisg> And administration, once you get it going the first time...
13:30	<roasted___> electricity savings for light power consuming clients AND gear that lasts longer?
13:30	AND the gear is cheaper?
13:30	I'm a huge linux fanboy... I've used it for 8 or 9 years now. But I've always been the oddball in the tech department here.
13:31	<_UsUrPeR__> alkisg: so TIMESERVER="ntp.ubuntu.com" is a good entry then? Does the client need to have access to DNS, or is that handled via server?
13:31	<alkisg> _UsUrPeR__: the client needs to have access to DNS and to the internet (nat on the server, or single nic setup, etc)
13:31	<roasted___> However, over the last year we've ported to a few linux based alternatives. So it began to win over the department. However, to the end user, we still have windows software we rely on. I'm doing a presentation next week to the board to prove to them we MUST act or we'll be in Windows-vendor-lock-in forever.
13:31	<alkisg> Otherwise you can install an ntp server on the server
13:31	<_UsUrPeR__> alkisg: gotcha
13:32	roasted__: it's unfortunate, but school districts in the US are typically gunshy when it comes to linux installations. I believe they think it's insecure, and the professionals aren't easlily found to help out.
13:32	<roasted___> I agree.
13:32	<_UsUrPeR__> you would have first-hand knowledge of these circumstances though :)
13:32	<roasted___> my boss's fear is we don't have the money to upgrade to windows 7
13:32	we just don't
13:33	but XP won't last forever
13:33	what do you do?
13:33	we get some CRAZY discounts with microsoft being we're an educational institution. But at 2,000 computers, it doesn't matter if a license is 10 bucks. that's a chunk of chnage just fo rupgrading your OS
13:34	<_UsUrPeR__> roasted__: I work for disklessworkstations.com . I do a lot of support and "special implementation" support.
13:34	<roasted___> We ported to open office last year and it was a hit. Couple that with firefox, audacity, gimp, and several other cross-platform apps and you begin to wonder, why do we even have windows? Sure we have our windows photoshop lab, but a LOT of our 25 labs are basic usage where we don't need windows specific software.
13:34	<_UsUrPeR__> also school installations ;)
13:35	jkinn2 (~jason@CPE54d46fa9ecb2-CM54d46fa9ecb0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #ltsp.
13:35	<roasted___> sweet deal man
13:35	I've been so happy with the support and answers I've gotten from everyone in this chat. It really make sme think we can pull this off without a hitch.
13:35	<_UsUrPeR__> I'd wager you'll be alright.
13:36	<roasted___> _UsUrPeR__: have you used ncomputing?
13:36	<_UsUrPeR__> roasted__: does not ring a bell, no.
13:36	<roasted___> ncomputing is a windows based thin client type setup...
13:36	proprietary hardware, windows server, etc.
13:36	we have it in our one lab.
13:36	Windows Server 2008, NComputing thin client boxes, 4 gigabit network cards, two six core 3.3ghz processors, and 32gb of RAM.
13:36	Guess how many times we have to reboot it in a week's time for it to function. :)
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13:41	<roasted___> Let's say I were to walk into an existing LTSP install. I have access on the server. Is there any simple way to determine if the server admin had set up fat clients on it?
13:41	<_UsUrPeR__> I am afraid to show my bias by answering that question
13:41	<roasted___> _UsUrPeR__: go ahead. Tell me what youre thinking :)
13:42	<_UsUrPeR__> roasted__: I would say at least once a day, but I am Windows Server dubious.
13:42	<roasted___> _UsUrPeR__: bingo
13:42	minimal of once a day, sometimes twice.
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13:42	Nick change: ogra -> Guest95250
13:42	<roasted___> granted, that wasnt MY idea to put that in there. I was heavily skeptical of it. But that's why I'm doing so much testing...
13:43	<_UsUrPeR__> roasted__: about fatclients: you should not be able to tell, aside from the time it takes to start some programs
13:43	<matrix3000> how do I disable the dhcp running on ltsp
13:43	<roasted___> when you update the image, why would it take hdd space?
13:43	I'm on 200mb remaining
13:43	on a friday at almost 5 pm
13:43	stab me
13:44	<vagrantc> roasted___: clients still using the old image will continue to use it ... so even after the file is deleted, the inode is still in use
13:44	<roasted___> no clients are booted though
13:44	<vagrantc> so if the clients don't get rebooted, you end up with phantom disk images
13:45	any running nbd processes?
13:45	<alkisg> roasted___: maybe clean the apt cache? sudo apt-get clean
13:45	this should get you some free space
13:45	<roasted___> none that I see
13:45	its taking up hdd space
13:45	<vagrantc> i think it doesn't delete the old image until the new image is sucessfully created
13:45	<roasted___> Im at 70% and 250mb remaining
13:45	I removed some .debs I downloaded
13:46	173 remaining
13:46	78%
13:46	<alkisg> About fat clients, you can see it from /opt/ltsp/image/i386.img, which will be > 1 Gb, and from /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/ltsp_fat_chroot
13:46	<roasted___> I'm screwed arent I?
13:46	<vagrantc> roasted___: ltsp-chroot apt-get clean
13:46	<_UsUrPeR__> matrix3000: stop the process /etc/init.d/dhcp3-server
13:46	with the following command: /etc/init.d/dhcp3-server stop
13:46	<vagrantc> roasted___: pause ltsp-update-image with ctrl-z
13:46	<roasted___> 17 mb
13:46	paused at 2.7 remaining
13:46	lol
13:46	<alkisg> Haha
13:47	<vagrantc> then figure out how to free up some space ... and resume with "fg"
13:47	<roasted___> I dont think I can
13:47	this is a fresh install
13:47	its a 15gb partition...
13:47	I thought thatd be enough
13:47	<Gadi> roasted__: sudo apt-get clean is usually a good way to free some space
13:47	<roasted___> (this is just for testing)
13:47	<Gadi> :)
13:47	<vagrantc> or let it fail, delete the existing image ... you can always recreate it with ltsp-update-image
13:47	<alkisg> heh, my fat chroot is 15 Gb
13:47	<roasted___> Gadi: that command does nothing
13:47	* _UsUrPeR__ jokes -- rm -rv /var
13:47	<Gadi> check your free space
13:47	<roasted___> vagrantc: /opt/ltsp/i386?
13:47	<vagrantc> roasted___: ltsp-chroot apt-get clean
13:47	??
13:47	<_UsUrPeR__> DO NOT ENTER THAT
13:48	<roasted___> I know
13:48	:P
13:48	<vagrantc> roasted___: delete /opt/ltsp/images/*
13:48	<_UsUrPeR__> what kind of space does your serve rhave? df -h ?
13:48	<vagrantc> roasted___: yes, clean the apt cache in your chroot
13:48	<roasted___> 160gb hd, but I partitioned edubuntu to have 15gb
13:48	<alkisg> roasted___: like vagrantc said, sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-get clean
13:48	<vagrantc> roasted___: ltsp-chroot apt-get clean
13:48	<roasted___> k
13:48	got 600 meg now
13:49	anything else?
13:49	<alkisg> I don't think ltsp-chroot is available on ubuntu yet
13:49	<vagrantc> what?!
13:49	<alkisg> (not in the path)
13:49	<vagrantc> it's been there for years
13:49	<alkisg> Yup. But not in the system path in ubuntu :)
13:49	<roasted___> if I run update-image will I eat up more than 600 meg?
13:49	<vagrantc> if ubuntu can't keep up with changes in debian ... somethings going kind of funny :)
13:49	<alkisg> vagrantc: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/589833
13:50	<vagrantc> we agreed to start using it in like 2007
13:50	<alkisg> I filed that last year, I think it'll be there on natty
13:50	<_UsUrPeR__> alkisg: for the lts.conf TIMEZONE =, what is the nomenclature? would it be gmt-5, or just -5?
13:50	<roasted___> yeah this will use more than 600
13:50	* vagrantc wonders why alkisg doesn't have upload rights to ubuntu
13:50	<alkisg> _UsUrPeR__: ls /usr/share/zoneinfo/
13:50	<roasted___> 2% in and 120mb is gone
13:50	<_UsUrPeR__> thx
13:51	<alkisg> vagrantc: no idea, but I'm also not sure that I'd want that for now, with my phd. After 2 years I'll look into it, but I may switch to debian by that time with all the changes to come in ubuntu :D
13:52	<roasted___> am I screwed?
13:52	<alkisg> _UsUrPeR__: e.g. I'm using TIMEZONE=Europe/Athens (so you can have slashes there)
13:52	<_UsUrPeR__> oh OH
13:52	ok
13:52	so America/Detroit then
13:52	gotcha
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13:53	<roasted___> screw this. it's beer time.
13:53	<matrix3000> _UsUrPer_: so like normal...i just wasn't sure, I knew the config file was stored in a diff directory and didn't know if there was a specific config
13:53	<alkisg> roasted___: you can bind-mount from another partition
13:53	<roasted___> alkisg: already powered it off :P
13:53	<_UsUrPeR__> matrix3000: yeah, config file is stored in /etc/ltsp/
13:53	<alkisg> Heh, beer time indeed
13:53	<roasted___> got a 2nd laptop here on irc
13:54	<_UsUrPeR__> matrix3000, but like normal, yeah
13:54	<vagrantc> alkisg: oh, well, lucky for debian, then :)
13:57	heh. the main thing holding back an ltsp 5.2.6 upload to debian is editing the changelog ...
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14:05	<matrix3000> _UsUrPeR_: now can I just do a sudo apt-get remove dhcp3? and just remove it from the server since we dont need it?
14:06	or should i just remove it from rd.d
14:06	rc.d*
14:14	<msaul_> alkisg: Are there any alternative to italc that you would recommend?
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15:38	Nick change: Guest95250 -> ogra
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16:41	<vagrantc> wheee. finally got new ltsp uploaded to debian.
16:41	was a fairly minor change, but somehow took a whole week.
16:43	<alkisg> vagrant++
16:46	* vagrantc rolls off into the sunset
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22:11	<msignor> hello - anyone notice a bug in firefox where it says a SSL site is not trusted even though its from a valid CA? just curious..
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00:00	--- Sat Mar 19 2011