IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 19 September 2007 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:09 | <loather-work> god, fedora has so much unneeded cruft in their base install
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| 06:27 | <EoinH> Anyone here have experience with LTSP across wireless?
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| 07:01 | <EoinH> Anyone here have experience with LTSP across wireless?
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| 07:04 | <ogra> apart from "it doesnt work because there is no wireless netboot protocol like PXE or etherboot ?"
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| 07:08 | <EoinH> The machines are booting OK. We have a wireless link between buildings.
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| 07:46 | <ogra> EoinH, that doesnt solve the issue of the need to have them netboot and retrieve kernel and initramfs from the net
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| 07:46 | there is simply no protocol to do that in wlan
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| 07:49 | <EoinH> Sorry, I have not explained well. We have two buildings. The LTSP server and three clients are in one. All working perfectly. A point to point wireless links another building with two clients. The two remote clients boot OK, but fuse, local devs and on occasions nfs fail.
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| 07:49 | <ogra> ah
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| 07:49 | so they are normal PXE clients
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| 07:49 | but use a WLAN link
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| 07:49 | indeed thats different :)
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| 07:50 | localdev and nfs use normal TCP connections ...
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| 07:50 | <EoinH> Yes the remote clients are identical boxes with built in PXE. They work OK when hard wired in.
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| 07:51 | <ogra> do you filter anything on the access points ?
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| 07:51 | <EoinH> Not to my knowledge.
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| 07:51 | <ogra> what bandwith do you have on the wlan ?
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| 07:52 | <EoinH> The APs are bog standard out of the box configured Linkssys and Buffalo. The run 'g'. Not tested the speed.
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| 07:52 | <ogra> well, that would be my first look :)
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| 07:53 | <ogra> under 10M things will surely get bad
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| 07:53 | make some speed tests between the buildings :)
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| 07:53 | <EoinH> Pings are 99%+ What tool wold you suggest for testing the wireless speed.
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| 07:54 | <ogra> an nfs mount and dd'in´g a file
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| 07:54 | measure the time for a 100M file and compute the outcome :)
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| 07:54 | do the same in the LAN without wlan involved and you see the speed difference
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| 07:55 | <EoinH> sorry offline a tick
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| 07:56 | <asdrubale> hi, not all pci-lan support pxe and netboot is very slow, what's best way for to do work anything terminal server?
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| 07:58 | what are our experiences with many pcs all differents?
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| 07:59 | have you changed all pci-lan cards?
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| 08:02 | many network cards support pxe, but they haven't a rom.. what's the best solution?
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| 08:03 | <vpro> does usb-sticks work in ltsp4.2 and can I have separate access server and aplication server?
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| 08:04 | this works fine in ltsp5 but I don't know how it works in ltsp4.2
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| 08:08 | asdrubale: what do you mean by "they haven't a rom"?
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| 08:54 | <sbalneav> Morning all
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| 08:54 | <Guaraldo> morning sbalneav...
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| 08:55 | <jammcq> Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| 08:55 | <sbalneav> Hey jammcq!
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| 09:10 | <asdrubale> what's the best place where to install etherboot? flash on ide? rom on network card?
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| 09:10 | or buy a network card with rom already installed?
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| 09:11 | <Blinny> asdrubale: I've had good luck with ROM on network card.
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| 09:14 | <asdrubale> Blinny, i dont understand: if possible you say more about it
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| 09:16 | <Blinny> asdrubale: In that case, you should just buy a network card with ROM already installed.
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| 09:18 | I just got a back of 10 Intel PXEs off of eBay for $25
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| 09:18 | * sbalneav can hardly wait for his book to arrive. | |
| 09:18 | <sbalneav> I ordered "Python & XML" last night from Amazon.
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| 09:19 | <Gadi> the snake wins
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| 09:19 | <Blinny> You ruined the suspense!
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| 09:19 | * Gadi only read the last page | |
| 09:19 | <Gadi> :)
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| 09:24 | <asdrubale> Blinny, if i have a p1, p2 that supported boot from lan?
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| 09:27 | <Blinny> asdrubale: Booting from LAN is an i386 thing that has been around for ages. If you put a bootable card in there, then yes.
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| 09:28 | <asdrubale> Blinny, thank a lot!!
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| 09:29 | * asdrubale inglese macheronico ownz! | |
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| 10:03 | <sbalneav> Morning vagrantc
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| 10:04 | <vagrantc> howdy
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| 10:04 | * vagrantc checks the status of ltspfs in debian | |
| 10:06 | <ogra> seems its gotten through :)
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| 10:08 | <vagrantc> well, it's through one of the many phases of being uploaded ...
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| 10:09 | <rjune_> Ahoy Maties
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| 10:10 | <MRH2> hi I can;t seem to get any more connections to the terminal server - anything I can restart without kicking everyone else off?
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| 10:10 | <sbalneav> Arrrrgh
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| 10:11 | MRH2: Which version of LTSP are you running?
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| 10:12 | <MRH2> 4.2 - not a config issue - guess is that xdmcp / gdm has gone bad
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| 10:12 | at the server side
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| 10:12 | <sbalneav> Well, or you've maxed out the sessions
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| 10:12 | <MRH2> nope
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| 10:13 | <sbalneav> How do you know you haven't?
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| 10:13 | <MRH2> i've killed off all the screensavers as i've seen then cause the occasional odd behaviour
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| 10:13 | <sbalneav> Check for idle gdmlogins
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| 10:13 | <MRH2> if i kill gdm on an active session what happens
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| 10:13 | <sbalneav> Also, when you kill them off, a session isn't released immediately
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| 10:14 | MRH2: Well, that user gets kicked off, obviously.
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| 10:14 | If you kill the root gdm, then they all get kicked off.
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| 10:15 | <MRH2> yeah thought so
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| 10:15 | <Gadi> try killing the gdmgreeters
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| 10:15 | <sbalneav> right.
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| 10:15 | if you've got any of them, they're using sessions up.
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| 10:17 | <vagrantc> wow, the m68k build beat out all the others for ltspfs ... that's unusual
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| 10:20 | <MRH2> nope no gsdm-greeter processes
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| 10:20 | gdm
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| 10:23 | <MRH2> i am going to take a gamble on xfs
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| 10:26 | <sbalneav> How many people are logged in?
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| 10:27 | <MRH2> not many
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| 10:27 | nope on xfs
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| 10:27 | i have a gnome-session process i can;t kill that might be the cause
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| 10:27 | <Gadi> it should be gdmgreeter
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| 10:27 | no dash
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| 10:28 | dont restart xfs
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| 10:28 | it will wreak havoc with existing connections
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| 10:28 | you can reload xfs
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| 10:28 | but not restart
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| 10:29 | hmm... fakeroot is throwing up errors all of a sudden
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| 10:29 | grr...
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| 10:29 | <ogra> vagrantc, do we have any automatic code for encrypted swap if cryptsetup is installed ?
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| 10:30 | cryptsetup is in main in ubuntu now ... i could add it to the default
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| 10:30 | <vagrantc> ogra: i don't think there's any automatic code, but it would be easy to add.
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| 10:31 | <MRH2> ain't no gdmgreeter running
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| 10:31 | * vagrantc checks | |
| 10:31 | <ogra> !meep .. wrong answer ... beta freeze is tomorrow :)
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| 10:31 | <ltspbot`> ogra: Error: "meep" is not a valid command.
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| 10:31 | <ogra> pfft ...
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| 10:31 | * ogra pokes ltspbot` | |
| 10:31 | <ogra> vagrantc, that means no for me :)
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| 10:32 | i'll leave it in recommends for now
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| 10:32 | <sbalneav> ogra: Merge in the fixes for cdpinger I did?
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| 10:32 | <ogra> not yet
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| 10:32 | i'm just on the ltsp branch
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| 10:32 | merged that though
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| 10:32 | <sbalneav> k
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| 10:32 | Any changes you've done? Sync required?
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| 10:33 | <ogra> i switched deps from mknbi to mkelf
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| 10:33 | nothing else yet
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| 10:33 | <sbalneav> ah, ok
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| 10:33 | <ogra> oh, and dropped nfs-kernel-server to be a recommends
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| 10:33 | <sbalneav> Let me know when you're done, I'll merge
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| 10:33 | <ogra> no need to have it :)
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| 10:34 | <sbalneav> BenC get the squashfs bug... squashed?
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| 10:34 | Ba-dump dump
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| 10:35 | <vagrantc> ogra: i'll be sure to get the auto-enabled encrypted swap in debian's next upload ... it's a good idea.
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| 10:36 | <Gadi> have any of you deb roller seen this? fakeroot, while creating message channels: Invalid argument
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| 10:36 | This may be due to a lack of SYSV IPC support.
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| 10:37 | <sbalneav> Weird
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| 10:37 | <MRH2> anything else I can check before i have to restart X for everyone?
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| 10:37 | <sbalneav> No, never seen that Gadi.
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| 10:37 | MRH2: The usual suspects, ram, filled up /tmp, etc
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| 10:38 | <MRH2> i guess i need to think about upgrading... lol
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| 10:38 | a restart i shall go
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| 10:38 | <ogra> vagrantc, cool
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| 10:39 | <vagrantc> ogra: then ubuntu can pull it as part of the sync with debian
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| 10:39 | <ogra> Gadi, all the package builders use fakeroot ... if that woud be broken we'd not have any binaries :)
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| 10:39 | <Gadi> ogra: I realize that
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| 10:40 | its gotta be something that crept up on the system
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| 10:40 | it worked in the past
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| 10:42 | * mistik1 thinks Gadi's system is tired of be faked ;P | |
| 10:42 | <Gadi> heh - howdy mistik1
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| 10:42 | <mistik1> hey man
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| 10:47 | <Gadi> huh - just learned a new command: ipcs
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| 10:47 | :)
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| 10:47 | <jammcq> oh yeah
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| 10:47 | <Gadi> if only I knew how to weild its power
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| 10:48 | <jammcq> years ago, I wrote a command to do that, then someone pointed out one already existed.
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| 10:48 | <Gadi> jammcq: do you know how I can use it to delete elements in the list?
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| 10:48 | or is that not a good thing?
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| 10:48 | <jammcq> list?
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| 10:48 | <Gadi> I've got ipcs owned by users who don't have procs running
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| 10:49 | yeah, when I run ipcs, I get a huge list of Semaphore arrays and such
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| 10:49 | <jammcq> ipcrm is what you want I think
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| 10:49 | <Gadi> ah, great!
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| 10:55 | <rjune_> mistik1 !
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| 10:55 | <mistik1> hey rjune_
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| 10:56 | <ws101> hello, I use ltsp5 on debian testing but cdrom and floppy are mounted twice
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| 10:57 | <vagrantc> ws101: yeah, i was noticing that yesterday
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| 10:57 | well, actually with the versions from sid
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| 10:57 | <ws101> example: cdrom and cdrom(1) are the same media
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| 10:58 | <vagrantc> it's because of the hair-brained way we do mounting with ltspfs
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| 10:58 | ws101: please file a bug on ltspfs
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| 10:59 | * vagrantc thinks it's better to have a setuid root binary that creates a directory in /media than to mount in /tmp and then a setuid binary to bind-mount it into /media/FOO | |
| 11:00 | <vagrantc> ws101: one of the icons is the /tmp mount, and one of the icons is the mount in /media/USER
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| 11:00 | which are effectively the same ...
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| 11:02 | i feel like we've gone over this before, and i never remember why we haven't fixed it.
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| 11:02 | <Gadi> ipcrm saves the day
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| 11:03 | <jammcq> yayyyyyy!!!
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| 11:03 | 3 cheers for ipcrm
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| 11:03 | <Gadi> jammcq: you're my hero.... again
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| 11:03 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: what if a sysadmin makes /tmp a separate filesystem from /?
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| 11:03 | <jammcq> awe shucks
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| 11:03 | * Gadi stares dreamily to the West | |
| 11:03 | * jammcq gets freaked out a little | |
| 11:03 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: i don't understand why we're using /tmp at all.
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| 11:04 | <sbalneav> ok, well, where ELSE would we mount things?
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| 11:04 | <ogra> vagrantc, hmm, i wonder why you see it at all
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| 11:04 | you shouldnt see /tmp
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| 11:04 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: uh, /media/USER ?
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| 11:04 | <ogra> vagrantc, security ...
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| 11:05 | <vagrantc> insecurity!
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| 11:05 | <ogra> if you use /media you need to have *all* code in the suid binary
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| 11:05 | <vagrantc> creating files in /tmp with predictable paths is a long-standing known security bug, and should be avoided.
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| 11:05 | <ogra> if you only do the bind mount it only needs to be a oe liner in there
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| 11:05 | not with fuse filesystems
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| 11:05 | not even root can look into it by design
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| 11:06 | <sbalneav> I was told by people at the time I cam up with that, that having users create dirs in / directly could result in a dir in root owned by the user, which then the user could use as an attack vector for a DOS attack by filling up /
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| 11:06 | <ogra> feel free to change the mount path if yu fee better then
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| 11:06 | <vagrantc> someone can re-direct the mount using a symlink, move the symlink aside, and watch the person write files into a directory they can read.
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| 11:06 | <ogra> no
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| 11:06 | try it
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| 11:07 | nobody but the owner can touch a fuse fs
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| 11:07 | <jammcq> ah, that's putting your money where your mount is
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| 11:07 | :)
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| 11:07 | <vagrantc> yes, and by moving aside the symlink, they can effectively move the location of the mount so that they're not touching the fuse filesystem
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| 11:07 | <sbalneav> Well, by default, unless the user adds options to /etc/fuse.conf
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| 11:07 | <ogra> which user has write access to /etc/fuse.conf ?
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| 11:08 | <sbalneav> only root.
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| 11:08 | <ogra> right
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| 11:08 | if your user can be root something else is wrong :)
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| 11:08 | <vagrantc> and every single user has write access to /tmp, and if your mount paths are dependent on files in /tmp, you can get fucked.
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| 11:08 | <ogra> vagrantc, i'm not opposing to change the mount path if it makes you feel better ...
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| 11:08 | as i said before
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| 11:09 | <sbalneav> I was just pointing out other users CAN see into fuse mounts, if root's gone and enabled that.
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| 11:09 | <vagrantc> i still don't understand the double-mounting ...
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| 11:09 | <ogra> security
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| 11:09 | <vagrantc> the setuid binary can create /media/USER, and that's all it does.
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| 11:09 | which we do anyways.
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| 11:09 | <sbalneav> One supposes that having ltspfs be hal aware would solve all this?
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| 11:09 | <jammcq> if normal users can create things in /media, doesn't that just move the /tmp problem to /media ?
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| 11:10 | <ogra> normal users cant
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| 11:10 | <vagrantc> jammcq: no, because the only way they can create the directory is through a specific binary.
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| 11:10 | <jammcq> ah, but if the binary is setuid, then normal users CAN
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| 11:10 | <vagrantc> which we are smart and write well.
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| 11:10 | we're ALREADY doing that part.
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| 11:10 | <ogra> well, thats why we kept it separated :)
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| 11:10 | <jammcq> and if you add a truckload of code to that binary, then it's more vulnerable
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| 11:10 | <vagrantc> we're just doing a bunch of other stuff as root.
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| 11:10 | "for security"
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| 11:11 | <ogra> we create/delete the dir and symlink it
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| 11:11 | werr
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| 11:11 | bind mount it
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| 11:11 | <vagrantc> i'm proposing to reduce the number of things done as root.
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| 11:11 | <ws101> is there a workaround?
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| 11:11 | <ogra> how would that reduce anything
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| 11:11 | <sbalneav> ws101: no, not at this time.
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| 11:11 | <ogra> you need to create/delete the dir and link or mount something
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| 11:12 | <sbalneav> That's what's being discussed.
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| 11:12 | <ogra> apart from that i have never seen that behavor in ubuntu ever
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| 11:12 | <vagrantc> ogra: because instead of creating the directory in /media/USER and bind-mounting is as root, we'll just be creating the directory in /media/USER and mounting directly there.
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| 11:12 | <ogra> vagrantc, try it send a patch :P
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| 11:12 | <vagrantc> well, it's a symptom of a bad design.
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| 11:12 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: I started out with that, and was told by Martin Pitt that that was against Debian Policy.
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| 11:13 | <ogra> in the face of virtual hal devices thats moot anyway
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| 11:13 | <vagrantc> sbalneav: where ?
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| 11:13 | <ogra> as soon as you will have gnome-mount support for ltspfs
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| 11:13 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: I don't know. I don't know debian policy.
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| 11:13 | You say it isn't against debian policy, Martin says it is.
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| 11:13 | <ogra> sbalneav, are you sure you dont mean creating symlins in $HOME
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| 11:14 | <vagrantc> i REALLY don't understand why creating a directory + bind mounting is any more policy compliant than simply creating the directory.
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| 11:14 | <sbalneav> I don't know either. I just do what I'm told.
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| 11:14 | <jammcq> :)
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| 11:15 | <ogra> i'm pretty sure its not a policy violation ...
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| 11:15 | <vagrantc> debian policy is a big thing, and i'd at least like a pointer to which part of it is violated before blindly accepting it.
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| 11:15 | <ogra> but pitti was eager to keep them separate for security reasons
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| 11:15 | * vagrantc stops repeating vagrantc | |
| 11:16 | <ogra> just send code :P
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| 11:16 | <vagrantc> ws101: please file a bug
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| 11:16 | ok, well, i'd best be off so i can fix this insanity :)
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| 11:16 | vagrantc has quit IRC | |
| 11:17 | * ogra still doesnt see any insanity :P | |
| 11:17 | <ogra> beyond noever having seen that bug in ubuntu
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| 11:17 | <sbalneav> I'm happy to do either. Looks like someone took his ball to go off to play by himself :)
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| 11:18 | <ogra> i wonder if its debians udev or debians gnome-vfs which is broken
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| 11:18 | <sbalneav> No idea
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| 11:18 | <ogra> likely gnome-vfs
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| 11:18 | blindly using hardcoded crap for floppy and cdrom devices ...
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| 11:19 | i bet as soon as the ltspfs mount would be called cdrom-1 or so it would be fixed
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| 11:19 | <sbalneav> I don't mind doing it vagrants way, but I don't want to get into a situation where vagrant's on once side, and pitti's on the other, and I'm in the middle makeing and reverting changes.
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| 11:19 | <ogra> you wont
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| 11:23 | <ogra> ws101, if you hack up cdpinger in the client chroot to use cdrom1 or so on the server for mounting i'm sure you wont see it twice
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| 11:25 | <vpro> ogra: you have made the debian package for ltsp4.2?
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| 11:29 | <ogra> vpro, i never did anything with 4.2
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| 11:30 | <sbalneav> vpro: I think it's mainly been abandoned. Really, it was just the installer bits. Not sure if it's even maintained by anyone in Debian anymore.
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| 11:30 | <ogra> the maintainer had promised to drop it for sid long ago
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| 11:30 | if its still in there thats pretty odd
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| 11:31 | vagrant and me asked him
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| 11:31 | <sbalneav> ok, going out for lunch with my folks, be back later.
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| 11:31 | <ogra> sbalneav, will have something to sync for you by then
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| 11:31 | (uploading right now)
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| 11:43 | <Gadi> ogra, sbalneav: what do you think about an ldm rc.d/ script to sessreg the user (ie to wtmp)?
| |
| 11:45 | <ogra_> not for gutsy anymore
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| 11:45 | but yes, sounds good
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| 11:45 | <Gadi> right
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| 11:45 | gutsy++
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| 11:45 | <vpro> I meant the one in feisty
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| 11:45 | <Gadi> ;)
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| 11:45 | <ogra_> beta freeze is tomorrow
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| 11:46 | <vpro> I was just wondering if it included everything that i need to use local devices such as usb-sticks
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| 11:47 | tux_440volt has quit IRC | |
| 11:48 | <Gadi> I wonder if I freeze the beta I have at home, if I could revive him with medical science sometime in the future...
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| 11:48 | ws101 has quit IRC | |
| 11:48 | <Gadi> he's on his way out... poor old fish...
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| 11:51 | <charlie_21> hi all
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| 11:51 | any Idea how much power consuption does the ltsp term 170 have
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| 11:51 | <jammcq> power... like in watts ?
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| 11:51 | <charlie_21> yes
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| 11:51 | <Gadi> 2.2 gigawatts
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| 11:51 | <jammcq> hmm, seems liek that's in the specs
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| 11:51 | <Gadi> oh no wait
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| 11:51 | <jammcq> 1.21 Gigawatts, gadi
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| 11:52 | <Gadi> oh right
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| 11:52 | <charlie_21> thanks
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| 11:52 | <monteslu> jigawatts
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| 11:52 | <Gadi> doh
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| 11:52 | <charlie_21> I am trying to calculate power consuption
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| 11:52 | for these devices
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| 11:53 | <jammcq> hmm, i'm not seeing the wattage specified in the specs
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| 11:53 | <charlie_21> I know
| |
| 11:53 | I looked at the spec sheets
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| 11:53 | and nothing
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| 11:53 | * jammcq makes a quick phone call | |
| 11:54 | ws101 has joined #ltsp | |
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| 11:55 | ogra_ is now known as ogra | |
| 11:57 | <ws101> ogra: Debian Bug report #443200
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| 11:58 | <ogra> ws101, vagrants thing ... i dont do debian :)
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| 11:58 | <jammcq> charlie_21: there's nothing published about the T-170. The LTSP-1220 is similar, and it's 30watts
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| 11:59 | <ogra> ws101, we dont have that problem in ubuntu apparently
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| 12:00 | <charlie_21> Thanks much
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| 12:00 | <ogra> joebob777as7, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/gutsy-changes/2007-September/008665.html if you use ltsp-build-client from that version, your compiz stuff should work
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| 12:01 | <ws101> ogra: I confirm, I didn't have that problem on ubuntu
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| 12:01 | <ogra> should be on the server within the next 2h
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| 12:04 | <vpro> any idea why that with some thin clients the automatic mounting of usb-sticks work but with others it does not. Though I am able to do it manually?
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| 12:05 | <ogra> define "manually"
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| 12:06 | <vpro> mount on thin client and then use ltspfs on server
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| 12:07 | <ogra> any tryces of the device in dmesg of the client ?
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| 12:07 | if you plug it in
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| 12:08 | <vpro> the normal
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| 12:08 | that it has found a usb-device
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| 12:10 | <ogra> does it list the partitions properly ?
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| 12:10 | ltspfs implementation can only work on partitions atm
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| 12:11 | <vpro> yes it does
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| 12:11 | <ogra> intresting
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| 12:11 | vpro, which version is that ?
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| 12:11 | <vpro> ltsp5 feisty
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| 12:12 | <ogra> and the user is in the fuse group ?
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| 12:12 | vagrantc has joined #ltsp | |
| 12:12 | <ogra> vagrantc, and ? fixed ?
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| 12:12 | * ogra hides | |
| 12:12 | <vpro> well it should be because I can do with other thin clients
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| 12:13 | <ogra> with the same user ?
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| 12:13 | <vpro> yes
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| 12:13 | <ogra> did you do any tweaks to your lts.conf ?
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| 12:14 | <vagrantc> ogra: ?
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| 12:14 | <ogra> "<vagrantc> ok, well, i'd best be off so i can fix this insanity :)"
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| 12:15 | <vagrantc> ogra: ah, no. breakfast came first
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| 12:16 | <vpro> ogra: sorry, false alarm. The user I used for testing did not belong to fuse, problem with ldap :(
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| 12:16 | <ogra> aha
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| 12:17 | <Gadi> vpro: I may get slapped for this, but I find when using network auth, its easiest to set fusermount to all executable and add a udev rule to make perms on /dev/fuse 666
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| 12:17 | (ie circumvent the whole fuse group thing)
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| 12:18 | <vpro> ok :)
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| 12:18 | well I can use ldap aswell
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| 12:19 | but was it possible to separate ltsp access server from the aplication server and still have these local devices working?
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| 12:20 | <Gadi> you mean have the thin client connect to a server other than the one that boots it?
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| 12:20 | <vpro> yes
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| 12:20 | <Gadi> sure
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| 12:21 | use LDM_SERVER
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| 12:21 | in lts.conf
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| 12:21 | <vpro> in ltsp4.2
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| 12:21 | <Gadi> ah, 4.2
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| 12:21 | yeah, should work, as long as you have lbussd and friends on the server
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| 12:21 | <ogra> didnt you say "<vpro> ltsp5 feisty" ?
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| 12:21 | * ogra is confused | |
| 12:22 | <vpro> ogra: different problem :)
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| 12:22 | <ogra> heh, ah
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| 12:23 | <vpro> I'm trying ltsp4.2 to make the boot faster
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| 12:23 | <ogra> try gutsy ;)
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| 12:23 | gutsy is on par with 4.2 wrt bootspeed
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| 12:23 | <vpro> I have these small thin clients that goes your by the name Term 1000 PXE
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| 12:24 | <ogra> ah
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| 12:24 | yeah, they are not great ... even on gutsy they take their time to boot
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| 12:24 | and dont use them with more than 1024x768
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| 12:24 | <vpro> ltsp4.2 boots them quite fast
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| 12:25 | <charlie_21> is it because of ssh
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| 12:25 | <ogra> charlie_21, nope
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| 12:25 | <vpro> that does not affect the boot time?
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| 12:25 | <ogra> ssh has absolutely nothing to do with booting
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| 12:25 | <charlie_21> oh ok
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| 12:25 | <vpro> Thought so
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| 12:25 | <charlie_21> I see
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| 12:26 | <vpro> only for session speed
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| 12:26 | <ogra> ssh is only used after logging in
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| 12:26 | right
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| 12:26 | <charlie_21> ok
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| 12:26 | <vagrantc> and can be disabled
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| 12:26 | <ogra> gutsys ldm has an option to switch off encryption for the graphics transport
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| 12:26 | while keeping it for the password auth
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| 12:26 | so you got XDMCP with safe auth
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| 12:27 | <jammcq> umm, actually, you have no XDMCP at all
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| 12:27 | you have X with safe auth
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| 12:27 | <ogra> yeah
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| 12:27 | well, speed wise i meant :)
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| 12:27 | <jammcq> and... it's a brilliant idea, btw
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| 12:27 | <ogra> yeah, lets praise Gadi :)
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| 12:27 | <jammcq> for those who want the speed of X with the security of ssh logins
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| 12:28 | * Gadi loves when he gets to milk a 2-line patch for a whole release cycle | |
| 12:28 | <Gadi> :)
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| 12:28 | <ogra> right, there is no usecase for XDMCP anymore as long as you have the control over both sides
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| 12:28 | <jammcq> Gadi: we're all embarrassed that we didn't think of that one
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| 12:29 | one of those things that was so obvious we all missed it
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| 12:29 | <Gadi> 15 mns of fame, jammcq, 16 mins of fame
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| 12:29 | or something
| |
| 12:29 | :)
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| 12:29 | <jammcq> hey, enjoy it while you can
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| 12:29 | bask in the glory of it
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| 12:29 | <Gadi> I know - doesnt come around too often
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| 12:32 | <elisboa> I use ssh -X, with no display manager
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| 12:32 | But it's a different case, since we don't need to login our users
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| 12:33 | * vagrantc tosses in a bit more praise for Gadi | |
| 12:33 | <ogra> sbalneav, which revisions are the ones i need to merge for ltspfs ? 11 and 12 ?
| |
| 12:37 | * ogra uploads with these two fixes added | |
| 12:38 | <ws101> vagrantc: Debian Bug report #443200
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| 12:38 | <vagrantc> ws101: yeah, got it.
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| 12:38 | ws101: good thing i know exactly what the problem is, or i'd have to email you back and ask for more information :P
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| 12:38 | <ogra> vagrantc, its gnome-vfs i'm pretty sure
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| 12:39 | <vagrantc> ogra: well, the bug is that we're mounting it twice. ubuntu has patches that probably hide the bug.
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| 12:39 | <ogra> we patched out the hardcoded grepping for mounts with the mane cdrom and floppy a while ago in ubuntu
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| 12:39 | vagrantc, no
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| 12:39 | its a gnome-vfs bug, really
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| 12:40 | s/mane/name/
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| 12:40 | * vagrantc still thinks mounting it twice is a bug. | |
| 12:40 | <ogra> you might call it two bugs thought
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| 12:41 | well, find a sane and secure way to do it with one mount :) or even better implement virtual-hal-devices :)
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| 12:41 | then you wont need to care :)
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| 12:42 | charlie_21 has quit IRC | |
| 12:42 | <ws101> i see an error on dmesg
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| 12:47 | <sbalneav> Back from lunch
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| 12:48 | <ws101> not in dmesg, sorry, in the first console:
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| 12:49 | error: /media/ws101 is not mounted
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| 12:50 | error: can't bindmounter under /media/ws101/floppy0: alredy mounted
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| 12:51 | <sbalneav> vagrantc: I'm happy, btw, to do it your way, mounting directly in media. Like I say, when I coded that up originally, I was told it was bad mojo. If that's changed, I'm cool.
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| 12:51 | <vagrantc> i'd just leave too hear something more specific than "bad mojo"
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| 12:52 | s,leave,like,
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| 12:53 | <ogra> ws101, you are not logged in mulitple times i suppose
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| 12:53 | <ws101> no
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| 12:53 | <sbalneav> Well, pitti'd be the guy to talk to. Mine and ogra's original idea was to patch pmount, and do it there. That was a no-go as well :)
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| 12:54 | Yes, 11 and 12, btw
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| 12:56 | <ogra> sbalneav, pmount is long gone
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| 12:56 | we dont use it since feisty anymore
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| 12:56 | <ws101> there is also "fusermount failed to access mount point /tmp/.ws101-ltspfs/floppy0: permission denied
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| 12:58 | "
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| 13:00 | <vagrantc> ws101: is your user in the fuse group ?
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| 13:01 | <ws101> yes, i correct mount hard disk and usb pen, cdrom and floppy twice :)
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| 13:45 | <bricode> With gutsy do you need to do an ltsp-update-image after an ltsp-update-sshkeys?
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| 13:45 | <sbalneav> bricode: yes
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| 13:46 | <bricode> I suppose that's why it doesn't work then.
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| 13:46 | Are there any plans to be able to mount the squashfs image to make changes easily?
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| 13:48 | Clown-MG has joined #ltsp | |
| 13:49 | * Gadi is curious, as well, whether a mounted squashfs rootfs can be updated without requiring all thin clients to reboot... | |
| 13:49 | <sbalneav> No
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| 13:49 | <vagrantc> gah. seems like the new X in sid isn't working today.
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| 13:50 | <Blinny> Is there an allowance already in place for periodically clearing /tmp out?
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| 13:50 | <bricode> Gadi: That sounds like it's asking for trouble.
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| 13:50 | Gadi: Had a question about that Kiosk LTSP plugin. Does it run stuff server or client side?
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| 13:50 | <Gadi> bricode: those who do not seek trouble may never find it...
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| 13:51 | or something
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| 13:51 | <sbalneav> No, you'd have to reboot anyway, and I don't see a need to make changes directly to the squashfs. Why would you want to?
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| 13:51 | <Gadi> the answer to your second qu is client side
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| 13:51 | <bricode> Gadi: Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things.
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| 13:51 | <vagrantc> Gadi: well, you don't have to reboot, but the changes won't take effect
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| 13:51 | <sbalneav> I mean, the way it is now, you can easily switch back and forth between nbd and nfs
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| 13:51 | <vagrantc> unless nbd-server is stupid
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| 13:51 | which, come to think of it, it might be
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| 13:52 | <sbalneav> if we start making changes to the squashfs directly then they'll get out-of-sync
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| 13:52 | <bricode> sbalneav: That's true, but if you're only doing a small update to the squashfs, it takes a while to recompress.
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| 13:52 | <sbalneav> what constitutes "a while"?
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| 13:52 | <loather-work> harrr, ye scurvy sea dogs!
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| 13:52 | <bricode> sbalneav: Ideally it would just mount it and do some quick sync function instead of an entire recompress.
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| 13:52 | <sbalneav> In my dual core box, it's 45 seconds.
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| 13:52 | <vagrantc> with sqaushfs, it's a read-only filesystem, so to make changes to it we have to re-create it.
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| 13:53 | <bricode> sbalneav: I haven't timed it on the Geode LX box I'm working a proof of concept on, but it's *much* longer than that.
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| 13:53 | <klausade> I have a client that uses floppy etherboot to boot, and something keeps reading the floppy every few minutes. I commented out the fd line in /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/udev/ltspfsd.rules, which made the annoying automatic reading of floppy stop. but it seems to have broken using the cdrom also. What is the correct way of disabling this constant reading of the floppy?
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| 13:53 | <sbalneav> Yeah, well, if you want to serve off the smallest box you can find, then you pay the price :)
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| 13:54 | <bricode> vagrantc: Well crap. I forgot that was the case.
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| 13:54 | <sbalneav> You could BUILD the image elsewhere, on a fast box.
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| 13:54 | <bricode> sbalneav: True.
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| 13:55 | <sbalneav> klausade: It'll be Nautilus, doing that.
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| 13:55 | <vagrantc> bricode: use NFS for development, and then switch to squashfs once you have a working setup.
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| 13:56 | <bricode> vagrantc: Humm. Good point.
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| 13:56 | <sbalneav> yep
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| 13:56 | * bricode bangs head | |
| 13:56 | <highvoltage> moo.
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| 13:57 | ccherret1 is now known as ccherrett | |
| 13:57 | <sbalneav> Foo!
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| 13:58 | <ogra> loather-work, arrr, i totally missed its talklikeapirateday
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| 13:58 | yo, ho ho
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| 13:58 | <Gadi> mmm..... rum....
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| 13:59 | <loather-work> avast! how could ye be forgettin' talk like a pirate day!? HARRR!
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| 13:59 | <ogra> http://www.talklikeapirate.com/ !
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| 13:59 | <Q-FUNK> greetings from Istanbul
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| 13:59 | * vagrantc yearns for the return of the purple corsair | |
| 13:59 | <loather-work> HARR, Greetings from the seven seas!
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| 14:00 | <highvoltage> sbalneav: how are you doing?
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| 14:02 | <klausade> sbalneav: using kde.
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| 14:06 | jammcq has quit IRC | |
| 14:06 | <sbalneav> klausade: Then it'll be konq
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| 14:07 | <vagrantc> ogra: "asoundconf set-pulseaudio" is invalid syntax in debian
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| 14:08 | <ogra> oh
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| 14:08 | i wasnt aware
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| 14:08 | thats bad
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| 14:08 | <vagrantc> yeah, well.
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| 14:08 | <ogra> i know pitti wrote it ages ago
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| 14:08 | i thought it had made its way into debian
| |
| 14:09 | <vagrantc> i can document the method for setting it as the default card globally, mentioning the drawback, and wait for a better option
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| 14:10 | <ogra> ask the alsa guys to take our patch :)
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| 14:11 | <vagrantc> well, sure. but in the meantime, at least i know how to get something almost as cool in debian :)
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| 14:13 | <klausade> sbalneav: thanks for the pointer. I'll have a look at what makes konq do this.
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| 14:13 | <ogra> sbalneav, ?? how can konq or nautilus trigger seeks on the client ?
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| 14:15 | <klausade> ogra: beats me aswell, but when sbalneav says to look at konq, I do as he says :-)
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| 14:15 | <sbalneav> ogra: both konq and nautilus run the "stat" system call periodically
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| 14:15 | <ogra> well, there is no technical reason :)
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| 14:15 | sbalneav, but that would require the mount to be there
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| 14:16 | <sbalneav> Remember: if you've got a floppy, the mount's ALWAYS there, because we can't detect media for floppies
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| 14:16 | <ogra> but not cdroms
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| 14:16 | <sbalneav> a floppy is ALWAYS "mounted".
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| 14:16 | right, not cdroms.
| |
| 14:16 | because we use cdpinger
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| 14:17 | <vagrantc> there's no way to make a correlary cdpinger ?
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| 14:17 | <sbalneav> floppy pinger?
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| 14:17 | <vagrantc> yeah
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| 14:17 | <ogra> floppyd ?
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| 14:17 | <sbalneav> no. The only way to try to detect media in a floppy is... to try reading a floppy.
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| 14:17 | the media detection systems in floppies are notoriously broken.
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| 14:17 | <vagrantc> so we'd shift the floppy polling client-side, which basically gains us nothing
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| 14:17 | <sbalneav> right.
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| 14:18 | you'll see that with hal as well
| |
| 14:18 | if you leave a floppy in the drive, some floppys will "seek" every once in a while with hal
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| 14:18 | I've got one here that does it.
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| 14:19 | Floppies, in short, are kind of broken. It's a really old standard.
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| 14:19 | <loather-work> do people still even use floppies?
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| 14:20 | <sbalneav> klausade does, obviously :)
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| 14:20 | Lots of people do.
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| 14:20 | <loather-work> i mean, there's no bulk DMA transfer, no MMIO range for them; it's all interrupt-driven and demands all of the CPU's attention.
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| 14:20 | i wish they would just go away :(
| |
| 14:21 | come to think of it, i don't think a single machine in this office has a floppy
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| 14:21 | <sbalneav> Not everybody lives in North America, you know. Lots of people in developing nations cant afford to go buy themselves a 2 gig memory stick :)
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| 14:21 | <klausade> sbalneav: I don't "use" the floppy, it's in the drive because the client doesn't have a pxe-card, so I ise etherboot on the floppy.
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| 14:22 | <sbalneav> Well, isn't that using it?
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| 14:22 | You use it to boot.
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| 14:22 | <elisboa> klausade: here, we use the floppies to store users data
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| 14:22 | <klausade> sbalneav: sort of.
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| 14:22 | <highvoltage> there's some local schools here that still use floppies too
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| 14:22 | <klausade> elisboa: that is what I mean, I don't use them to store users data.
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| 14:23 | bricode has quit IRC | |
| 14:23 | <highvoltage> although they are still on ltsp 4.2 and mtoolsfm and floppyd :/
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| 14:23 | <elisboa> klausade: yes, you use them just to boot
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| 14:23 | <sbalneav> loather-work: See? Lots of floppies still out there :)
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| 14:23 | <loather-work> anyhow, i've got my fedora chroot all pared down
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| 14:24 | sbalneav: that saddens me :(
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| 14:24 | <ogra> cool
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| 14:24 | <loather-work> ogra: as soon as i can find mknbi, i'll try and boot this terminal
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| 14:24 | <ogra> fedora should have it ...
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| 14:24 | dont you have PXE clients ?
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| 14:25 | <loather-work> well yeah, but pxe != etherboot :(
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| 14:25 | oh. you mean the terminals... no, they're all etherboot.
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| 14:25 | <ogra> use syslinux/pxelinux
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| 14:25 | ah, k
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| 14:25 | then you need mknbi
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| 14:26 | or better mkelf-linux
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| 14:26 | <loather-work> I would have bought pxe terminals, but the guys who did the setup here got etherboot terminals for whatever reason
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| 14:26 | <ogra> well, we support both oout of the box in ltsp5
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| 14:28 | <klausade> funny thing is that I have a huge box full of pxe-cards here, but I just dont have the time to dig out the clints and replace the nics.
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| 14:28 | * klausade don't like getting his knees dirty. | |
| 14:29 | <loather-work> ogra: yea, another reason why i need to get mknbi :) so everyone else has support too!
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| 14:29 | <rjune_> klausade: I could make a crack about that, but sometimes it's just too easy
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| 14:30 | <loather-work> yeah, the 'down on your knees' jokes are abundant :)
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| 14:40 | <klausade> soo, I noticed that running df -h on the server triggered a read on the floppy in the client, and this: ltspfs 62M 36K 62M 1% /tmp/.foobar-ltspfs/floppy0
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| 14:53 | <MRH2> hi just wondering on the server side - any issues with mounting / with noatime
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| 14:54 | ext3
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| 14:55 | <sbalneav> Well, other than the fact you may break a bunch of things which depend on atime, no
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| 14:56 | <MRH2> what sort of things would depend on atime?
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| 14:56 | <sbalneav> I mean, if you're doing a flash-based filesystem or something embedded like that, it's a good idea
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| 14:56 | backups
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| 14:56 | some modes for the find command.
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| 14:56 | etc.
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| 14:57 | I guess the question is: why do you WANT to disable it?
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| 14:57 | What are you hoping to accomplish by disabling it.
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| 14:57 | <MRH2> well i thought i'd see if it would make any difference at all to performance
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| 14:58 | <sbalneav> On a normal system with regular hard drives, it won't make any difference at all.
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| 14:58 | but, try it and see. You won't hurt much by trying it for a short time.
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| 14:59 | <MRH2> i'll give it a go - just don't want to break anything
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| 14:59 | <sbalneav> Well, that's always a possibility.
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| 14:59 | <MRH2> (important)
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| 14:59 | <sbalneav> I'm assuming you're going to do this on a test system, right?
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| 14:59 | Not a live system?
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| 15:00 | <MRH2> course not
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| 15:00 | <---living on the edge
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| 15:00 | <sbalneav> So, you're going to do it on a live system?
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| 15:01 | <MRH2> yeah that's why i thought i would ask if wnyone else does this
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| 15:02 | <sbalneav> Well, I'd never make a change like that on a live system.
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| 15:02 | I'd test it first somewhere.
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| 15:10 | <MRH2> ok seeing as you have ur doubts i'll give it a test somewhere
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| 15:10 | thanx
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| 16:29 | <sbalneav> Headin' home. Be on tonight.
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| 17:04 | <jammcq> hola
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| 17:20 | <timday> \quit
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| 18:44 | <cliebow> arrrrrgh:
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| 18:46 | <loather-work> aye aye, ye scurvy scoundrel!
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| 19:33 | <drwahl> can ltsp thin clients render 3D?
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| 19:37 | <cliebow> it is not athin clients forte..
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| 19:38 | <drwahl> from what i can see, it looks like it is possible though... how would one go about getting 3D acceleration on the thin client?
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| 19:40 | <cliebow> better catch the ubermenschen on that...sbalneav...et al
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| 19:40 | <vagrantc_> if it's LTSP5, not really any different than how you'd configure it for a desktop machine.
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| 19:42 | <drwahl> hmm, i'm not sure which version it is.... I'm running debian Sid and i got ltsp-server from debians repositories
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| 19:42 | ya, looks like 5.0.27
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| 19:44 | "not really different than... a desktop machine" i assume you mean a standard desktop. if that is the case, then to my understanding, i would go to the thin client, download the latest driver, install them, edit xorg, and then restart X. correct?
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| 19:45 | <cliebow> drwahl, vagrantc_ is your man..he is the debian maintainer
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| 19:45 | <drwahl> ok, here is another question. i try to log in as root and it seems to be wrong username/password. is this a security feature i can get past some how?
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| 19:55 | <vagrantc_> drwahl: can you ssh in as root ?
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| 19:55 | <drwahl> ya
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| 19:56 | <vagrantc_> drwahl: are you talking about logging in through the GUI interface ?
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| 19:56 | <drwahl> i hit Ctrl+Alt+F1 to bring up a command line
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| 19:56 | and it prompts to login
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| 19:56 | and i try root, but it doesnt seem to like it
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| 19:57 | <vagrantc_> yeah, there's no root password by default
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| 19:57 | <drwahl> ah, ok
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| 19:57 | <vagrantc_> if you want a shell, you can set SCREEN_07=ldm and SCREEN_08=shell
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| 19:57 | and go to tty8 for a shell
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| 19:57 | or, if you must, set a password: chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 passwd
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| 19:58 | but that password is available to the network via NFS, so don't use an important one
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| 19:58 | <drwahl> ah, ok
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| 19:58 | that makes sense
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| 19:58 | maybe i will just stick with the more secure practices
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| 19:58 | <vagrantc_> heh
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| 19:59 | actually, root's password is disabled by default ... which is different than no root password
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| 19:59 | :)
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| 19:59 | finally figured out how to get remote sound working without too much tweaking in the past few days :)
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| 20:00 | <drwahl> really? i have been working on that myself
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| 20:00 | how did you go about getting it working?
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| 20:00 | <vagrantc_> drwahl: http://bugs.debian.org/src:ltsp
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| 20:01 | drwahl: there's a bug report in sound, near the end i posted how to get it working
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| 20:01 | it's an alsa -> pulseaudio configuration thing
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| 20:01 | <drwahl> interesting...
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| 20:01 | ok, i have another question. can i have the clients automatically mount their local harddrives?
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| 20:10 | <vagrantc_> if you install ltspfs on the server, and add your user(s) to the fuse group, it will happen automatically.
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| 21:55 | <sbalneav> Evening all
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| 21:57 | <jammcq> Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| 21:58 | <sbalneav> Evening jammcq!
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| 21:59 | <jammcq> how's it goin, eh?
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| 21:59 | <sbalneav> Goin! Testing, testing testing
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| 21:59 | We'll see if the patches I pushed up to ogra made it to the mirrors
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| 21:59 | * sbalneav crosses fingers | |
| 22:02 | <jammcq> hey, how much snow you got up there?
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| 22:02 | <sbalneav> None, yet.
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| 22:03 | Whoohoo
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| 22:03 | Ogra's a good man. Now I just gotta wait for the 120 megs of updates to download.
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| 22:03 | <jammcq> :)
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| 22:03 | <sbalneav> argh. Gotta download a daily build too.
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| 22:24 | <sbalneav> Hey Q-FUNK
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| 22:27 | <Q-FUNK> hey Scott!
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| 22:29 | <sbalneav> Q-FUNK: Anyone you know of had a chance to look at Bug #140051?
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| 22:34 | <Q-FUNK> both bryce and I did, but we haven't figured out what might cause it. Jordan is also looking into it now.
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| 22:35 | <sbalneav> Wish I knew more about debugging X
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| 22:36 | If I could even get an idea as to which ROUTINE it's cacking in, I could at least read the code, and play around a bit.
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| 22:37 | Time for my daily chroot rebuild :)
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| 23:54 | <joebob777as7> sbalneav, have any issues with black screen after login?
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