IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 6 November 2007 (all times are UTC)
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| 02:49 | <multik> good morning
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| 04:56 | <osl> i have a question about LTSP-5 that comes with edubuntu ... is it identical to LTSP-5 that is installed manually ? or edubuntu has its touches and modifications on LTSP-5 ??
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| 09:07 | <prpplague> nice little write-up on linux.com - http://www.linux.com/feature/120292
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| 09:10 | <cliebow__> prpplague,yeah it is
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| 09:24 | <rjune> cliebow__: !
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| 09:24 | how was BTS?
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| 09:30 | <ronalde> we're running gutsy (upgrade from feisty) with HP t5725 thin clients. Since a few days we get a boot timeout after the loading of vmlinuz and initrd. The terminal on the clients says "Negotiation:" a waits for 100-200 seconds before actually loading the nbd-root
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| 09:39 | <cliebow__> rjune: we missed you..
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| 09:39 | everyone rolled in Saturday afternoom
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| 09:43 | <ronalde> we tested it with a dell notebook: same behaviour
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| 09:46 | <cliebow__> Ragnar RonC Jim Glutting jammcq trask warren togami oliver jorge castro eric harrison Gadi francis giraldeau(pardon the spelling
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| 09:46 | Moquist
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| 10:52 | <cliebow__> oh yeah: and that guy with the little black mustache
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| 10:54 | <rjune> ?
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| 10:54 | who's that?
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| 10:55 | <irule> hi
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| 11:16 | <cliebow__> Scottie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| 11:17 | <prpplague> cliebow: wow sounds like a whole crowd of ltsp folks was there
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| 11:17 | <cliebow__> oh yeah..warren togami got ltsp5 going in fedora8
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| 11:19 | * prpplague remembers the good old days of early ltsp dev and usage | |
| 11:20 | <cliebow__> prpplague, how far back was that??i started using it in what 2001??ltsp3 anyway
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| 11:20 | <prpplague> cliebow: back in 1999
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| 11:22 | cliebow: we (my employeer) did alot of early testing and dev, ended up moving to a hybrid style thin client
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| 11:22 | <cliebow__> ahh the early years..i really miss those irc hackfests...back then i had something to contribute
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| 11:23 | <prpplague> cliebow: then around 2003 my former employeer was under alot of pressure to move to windows based devices, so they dropped all of their linux thin clients, needless to say, i left shortly there after
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| 11:24 | <cliebow__> that is where i am kind of...but it is macintosh-centric
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| 11:24 | instead
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| 11:24 | <prpplague> ahh
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| 11:24 | cliebow__: i've not done thin client stuff since then, i mainly do handheld stuff
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| 11:25 | <cliebow__> now i remember you mentioning that..have you used tinyos?
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| 11:26 | <cliebow__> i have shitty clients and shitty monitors...as Gadi says
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| 11:26 | <prpplague> cliebow__: yea, i've done a few builds for testing, but nothing in a commercial product
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| 11:27 | <cliebow__> we have college of the atlantic here in Bar Harbor..doing research on Duck Island bird populations..with "motes " at their disposal..but no one knows how to use em
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| 11:27 | <prpplague> cliebow: one of latest designs - http://www.elinux.org/Hammer_Board
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| 11:27 | <cliebow__> ahh
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| 11:28 | so i was trying to create my own job there..
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| 11:28 | <prpplague> hehe
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| 11:29 | <cliebow__> i t would make a pretty good match...nmot far from h ome...using my biology degree...and my captains license...and my li9nux experience
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| 11:30 | <prpplague> cliebow__: indeed, the end users are won't probably complains as much since they are birds, hehe
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| 11:30 | <cliebow__> hahhh!!
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| 11:31 | wow hammer is cool
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| 11:33 | <prpplague> cliebow__: thanks we've been working on it for awhile, we are scheduled to start selling it on thursday for $159 for the cpu board, or $229 for a complete dev kit
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| 12:16 | <scrapbunny> hello I am having problems with applications freezing when students try to close them on edubuntu 7.10 clients. Is there a way to fix this?
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| 12:20 | <sgtpepper> ping cliebow
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| 12:25 | <sgtpepper> where can i find ndb.h
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| 12:25 | ?
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| 12:29 | * sutula can't find ndb.h, but finds nbd.h if that's what sgtpepper needs | |
| 12:30 | <sgtpepper> sutula: the thing is... I know where to find it, but the source of ltspswapd can't
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| 12:31 | <Centaur5> Can anybody give me an idea of how to troubleshoot why my ltsp client can't load X or login via console?
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| 12:31 | <sgtpepper> Centaur5: ltsp version?
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| 12:31 | <vagrantc> Centaur5: start off with the distro and ltsp version
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| 12:31 | <Centaur5> Ubuntu Gutsy 5.0.39
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| 12:32 | <sgtpepper> vagrantc: all yours
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| 12:32 | <Centaur5> One client works fine and I love it but the other doesn't.
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| 12:32 | * vagrantc hands it off to one of the ubuntu folks | |
| 12:32 | <sgtpepper> vagrantc: Fedora?
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| 12:32 | <vagrantc> sgtpepper: debian
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| 12:32 | <sgtpepper> ohh ok
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| 12:32 | <vagrantc> the gutsy ltsp is bizarre
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| 12:33 | <sgtpepper> ping cliebow__
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| 12:33 | <Centaur5> vagrantc: Really? Are there better ways to do it then?
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| 12:33 | <sgtpepper> Centaur5: Debian has amazing integration
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| 12:33 | <sutula> sgtpepper: I was looking here for Debian: http://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contents&keywords=nbd.h&mode=path&suite=unstable&arch=any
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| 12:34 | <sgtpepper> or Fedora, with the downside that you have to use LTSP 4.2
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| 12:34 | <sutula> sgtpepper: I don't know what distro you're working with so don't know where to start looking
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| 12:34 | <sgtpepper> sutula: I'm trying to compile ltspswapd in x86_64
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| 12:34 | <vagrantc> Centaur5: well, mainly i haven't had any luck doing the nbd+squashfs+unionfs approach that gutsy uses ...
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| 12:34 | <cliebow__> sgtpepper, waking me up huh??
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| 12:34 | <vagrantc> ltspswapd isn't used on LTSP5
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| 12:35 | <sgtpepper> sorry
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| 12:35 | just a quick one
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| 12:35 | I promise
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| 12:35 | where does the source of ltspswapd looks for nbd.h
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| 12:35 | I'm trying to compile it from cvs and I get
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| 12:35 | #error I need an nbd.h somewhere. Either install it in <linux/nbd.h> or put it in the current directory.
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| 12:36 | <Centaur5> Well thanks for the help guys. I guess that maybe I'll try to find different hardware to see if that's my problem.
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| 12:36 | <sgtpepper> I have it on /lib/modules/(uname -r)/build/include/linux
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| 12:36 | <cliebow__> Centaur5, trioed a vesa driver??
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| 12:37 | <sutula> sgtpepper: Well, it's here: http://packages.debian.org/sid/linux-libc-dev/amd64/filelist
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| 12:37 | You could grab it out of that package
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| 12:37 | <sgtpepper> sutula: for Fedora
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| 12:37 | <Centaur5> cliebow__: Yeah I did, my client that works has SIS video and the one that doesn't is Intel.
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| 12:38 | <sutula> sgtpepper: Sorry, I missed you saying that
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| 12:38 | * sutula wonders whether the files would be the same | |
| 12:38 | <sgtpepper> that's why I'm compiling it
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| 12:38 | <cliebow__> Centaur5, i810? but that shouls just work
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| 12:38 | sgtpepper, by the way.warren got ltsp5 going Sunday night
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| 12:39 | in fedora8
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| 12:39 | <Centaur5> cliebow__: That's what I thought, maybe there's something else about the motherboard that just doesn't work right.
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| 12:39 | <sgtpepper> cliebow__ awesome :D
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| 12:39 | I'll get in touch with him today to make some tests
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| 12:39 | <cliebow__> sgt:it was awesome..first try it ran compiz with very little lag
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| 12:40 | Centaur5, Scottie would suggest you boot in terminal mode run startx manually..then lookj the logsa over
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| 12:41 | On the client
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| 12:41 | to see what is borked
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| 12:42 | <Centaur5> cliebow__: Okay, I'll first try to find out why I can't login via console :)
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| 12:42 | <prpplague> cliebow__: did you get my last message before the server split?
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| 12:43 | <cliebow__> errr.last i got was 159 for the board 229 for the dev kit
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| 12:43 | <prpplague> cliebow__: yea that was the last one
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| 12:44 | <cliebow__> what is in the dev kit??
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| 12:46 | <prpplague> cliebow: carrier board, cpu board, usb jtag , wall-wort, rs-232 cable, usb cable, sdk cd
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| 12:52 | <sgtpepper> can I specify somewhere in the ltspswapd Makefile where to look for kernel-headers?
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| 12:54 | <prpplague> cliebow__: actually you could make a really small ltsp client out of that, hehe
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| 13:04 | <cliebow__> id need an awful lot of handholding i am afraid..
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| 13:04 | <scrapbunny> hello I am having problems with applications freezing when students try to close them on edubuntu 7.10 clients. Is there a way to fix this?
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| 13:11 | <vagrantc> otavio: should we exclude hurd-i386, kfreebsd-i386 and kfreebsd-amd64 from the LTSP builds ?
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| 13:11 | otavio: and do you think there are any other arches that we should exclude? s390 ?
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| 13:12 | debian builds more arches than i really even know exist
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| 13:14 | * sutula notes that the m68k autobuilder seems borked, and has been for a while afaikt | |
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| 13:22 | * vagrantc looks at the conflicts and cringes | |
| 13:22 | <vagrantc> merging these new split branches is hell.
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| 13:36 | <otavio> vagrantc: sorry but I can't talk right now
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| 13:36 | <vagrantc> otavio: ok
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| 13:36 | <otavio> vagrantc: check the supported arches and make them explicit
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| 13:36 | vagrantc: as I've done for usplash
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| 14:06 | <Q-FUNK> .s
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| 14:06 | !s
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| 14:06 | <ltspbot> Q-FUNK: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| 14:08 | <cliebow__> where?????????????????????
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| 14:11 | <Q-FUNK> hm. apparently MIA
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| 14:14 | <cliebow__> must still be travelling from Maine
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| 14:14 | ...
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| 14:28 | <Q-FUNK> I guess so
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| 19:34 | <ari_stress> morning
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| 20:30 | <warren> Would it be accurate to describe Scott is "lead hacker"?
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| 20:39 | <jammcq> hey all
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| 20:43 | <jammcq> hey moquist
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| 21:14 | <warren> jammcq, hey jim
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| 21:15 | <jammcq> hey
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| 22:21 | <warren> http://wtogami.livejournal.com/20047.html
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| 22:21 | any corrections?
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| 22:24 | <vagrantc> warren: i wouldn't say you convinced me of anything, i'd been pushing for this sort of thing for over a year
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| 22:25 | <warren> vagrantc, well, you agreed to it =)
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| 22:25 | vagrantc, they needed convincing
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| 22:25 | vagrantc, especially ogra
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| 22:25 | <jammcq> s/I manage to convince them/We worked together/
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| 22:25 | * vagrantc is really unhappy the split happened before bzr was synced with debian ... | |
| 22:26 | <vagrantc> the merge is really, really difficult.
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| 22:27 | <warren> jammcq, I suppose that's more diplomatic
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| 22:27 | <jammcq> thanks
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| 22:27 | <vagrantc> actually, i had been pushing to split LDM out probably as early as 2005
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| 22:27 | within months of creating it
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| 22:28 | <warren> stupid livejournal screwed up the formatting
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| 22:29 | * vagrantc has had *no* luck with NBD root | |
| 22:30 | <vagrantc> i even tried with just tmpfs bind mounts ...
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| 22:30 | maybe something badly broken with NBD on debian
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| 22:30 | <jammcq> ok, bed time
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| 22:30 | see ya'll tomorrow
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| 22:31 | <warren> vagrantc, tmpfs bind mounts for what?
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| 22:31 | <vagrantc> warren: the writeable filesystem directories
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| 22:31 | <warren> vagrantc, Fedora has a built-in readonly-root mode that mostly works, so it was trivial for us
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| 22:31 | <vagrantc> warren: like i've been doing with NFS for years
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| 22:33 | <warren> Is there really anything that truly necessitates read-write root?
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| 22:34 | I don't see any benefit to it
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| 22:34 | if your readonly-root works
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| 22:34 | <vagrantc> what does your readonly-root do?
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| 22:35 | <warren> vagrantc, tmpfs bind mounts of key areas
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| 22:35 | <vagrantc> warren: that's what i'm talking about.
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| 22:35 | <warren> vagrantc, kind of like LTSP... except it is built in as an officially supported OS feaure
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| 22:35 | feature
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| 22:35 | <vagrantc> that's what i've been doing for the last 6 years or so
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| 22:36 | so anyways, it hasn't worked for me with NBD root using squashfs ... should try ext2 or something one of these days
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| 22:37 | to determine if it's really NBD or squashfs that's unstable
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| 22:38 | <warren> nod
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| 22:39 | <vagrantc> that said, having / writeable would make it much easier to ensure all applications work without having to do anything other than install it.
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| 22:40 | not particularly useful for a typical LTSP environment, but people are wanting more and more to do crazy stuff, and as thin client hardware gets more powerful (and the support improves), people will want to do more and more local apps
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| 22:41 | <warren> it seems like thin client vendors want to sell slower and cheaper machines
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| 22:42 | <vagrantc> well, slow these days sometimes goes as high as 800Mz
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| 22:42 | <vagrantc> MHz
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| 22:42 | which is way more than needed for a typical thin client
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| 22:43 | some people i know have even picked up machines with 512MB of ram ...
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| 22:43 | which is *certainly* more than needed for a typical thin client
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| 22:44 | and as far as re-using recycled equipment... there's plenty of 1GHz machines around ...
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| 22:46 | but my primary interest is getting something that works... NFS, for all it's supposed slowness, is tried and true.
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| 22:47 | and re-building the images to export over NBD for any changes seems complicated
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| 22:53 | <warren> vagrantc, not complicated, just slow
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| 22:53 | vagrantc, you just keep the source chroot around
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| 22:54 | vagrantc, there is some attractiveness to some networks to not use NFS at all.
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| 22:54 | vagrantc, and the performance benefits of NBD over NFS are real
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| 22:54 | <vagrantc> warren: i don't disagree...
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| 22:54 | <warren> vagrantc, offloading work from the server
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| 22:54 | <vagrantc> but keeping the source chroot around is prone to "i modified the files- but why doesn't it see my changes" types of issues
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| 22:55 | having to maintain the same information in multiple places is ugly at best
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| 22:56 | <warren> true
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| 22:57 | vagrantc, there are other benefits
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| 22:57 | <vagrantc> like ?
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| 22:57 | <warren> vagrantc, like every time you redo the NBD image, existing clients are unaffected, because they see the unlinked (but not yet deleted) nbd image, until the last client using that old image disconnects.
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| 22:57 | vagrantc, safety despite things changing from under them
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| 22:57 | <vagrantc> well, that's a feature and a bug
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| 22:58 | <warren> The benefits are compelling enough for me to default NBD in the future.
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| 22:58 | with optional NFS
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| 22:59 | <vagrantc> as long as people don't automatically drop all support for NFS, that's fine.
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| 23:00 | once we get new packages uploaded to debian based on the new source repositories, i'll try and spend more time with the NBD stuff
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| 23:01 | <warren> definitely wont be dropping it
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| 23:03 | <vagrantc> or maybe that should be the next thing i work on ...
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| 23:03 | though i really want to get the new sources straightened out
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| 23:25 | <cyberorg> i am defaulting to nbd root on suse
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| 23:26 | using aufs for full rw nbd squashfs image
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