IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)


Channel log from 7 July 2021   (all times are UTC)

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16:31
<Lantizia__>
hey can you still use LTSP v5 with no PC's?
16:31
i.e. run it on 1 PC and just RDP (or some equiv) to that from regular non-LTSP non-Netbooting PC's/tablets
16:31
like an actual "Terminal Server" (to use Windows terminology)
16:32
<vagrantc>
wouldn't recommend ltsp v5 (the newer versions are much better)
16:32
<Lantizia__>
As we're a nonprofit seeking something like this... and the only thing out there seems to be NoMachine which isn't free (in either definition!)
16:32
<vagrantc>
i'm not sure there are hooks to set up RDP out of the box, but shouldn't be difficult to write something
16:33
<Lantizia__>
I thought 5 was the latest now - the rewritten one?
16:33
<vagrantc>
ltsp 5 was from ~2005 :)
16:33
<Lantizia__>
sorry I mean the latest one then - not 5 :)
16:33
is the newer one called v6 then?
16:33
<vagrantc>
no
16:33
it's date-based
16:34
<Lantizia__>
so LTSP 2019 ?
16:34
<vagrantc>
last release was 21.01
16:34
<Lantizia__>
ah ok :)
16:35
so I guess I'm asking if LTSP 21.01 can support VNC/RDP/XDMCP/NX(or X2Go) remote connections inbound ... and thus *no* netbooting clients at all.
16:35
and is there any docs on that? as the front page of ltsp.org seems to *specifically* not talk about the project in that way any more
16:35
<vagrantc>
it can support anything you could set up on a regular desktop machine
16:36
there's far less that is LTSP-specific anymore
16:36
it's just a way to network-boot your computer now, pretty much
16:37
computers, rather :)
16:37
and manage the network-booted images, etc.
16:38
e.g. run an x2go or rdp or vnc client fullscreen and there you are
16:38
<Lantizia__>
I guess I'm comparing to this... https://www.nomachine.com/comparison-terminal-server-products
16:39
Which is what would more commonly be seen as a 'Terminal Server' type product/software
16:39
Which'll manage multiple 'virtual desktops' and let an admin look at them, troubleshoot for other users, etc...
16:40
<vagrantc>
can probably do something like set up nodm to spawn an RDP client and off you go
16:40
<Lantizia__>
So it's got the tools around it... more than just multiple X11 sessions (and X11 is eventually going to make way for Wayland)
16:40
eh? an RDP *client* ?
16:40
more like server, are we talking about the same thing here
16:40
<vagrantc>
xfreerdp, for example ?
16:41
well, the server runs the server-side stuff, and on the terminal you would run a client
16:41
<Lantizia__>
yeah - no terminal :)
16:42
<vagrantc>
a terminal server is something that provides access to terminals, pretty much by definition :P
16:42
<Lantizia__>
I'm talking about 1 machine which runs the LTSP software (and a distro)... and literally *any* PC/tablet in the world can remote into *that*.
16:42
<vagrantc>
there's nothing related to LTSP in the scenario you're talking about
16:42
<Lantizia__>
right so translating from NoMachine speak... 'virtual desktop' == 'terminal' :P
16:43
<muhwalt>
the terminal is the client used to access it, I think? If we want to argue semantics ;)
16:43
<vagrantc>
LTSP provides the infrastructure to network boot computers which use a common rootfs from the network
16:43
<Lantizia__>
right - I'm talking about none of that
16:43
<vagrantc>
Lantizia__: there's not really any specific LTSP software for arbitrary clients to connect to
16:44
<muhwalt>
LTSP is probably not the solution you're looking for
16:44
<vagrantc>
PC/Tablet/whatever
16:44
<Lantizia__>
the 'thin client' mode of LTSP runs on the LTSP server itself right? as an X11 session?
16:45
<muhwalt>
That's not in-scope for ltsp anymore
16:45
<vagrantc>
not really anymore; it's more just network booted computers now ... you can of course run and configure whatever you want
16:45
<Lantizia__>
but was for v5 ?
16:45
<vagrantc>
Lantizia__: there was nothing in LTSP 5 to do what you're talking about either
16:46
it was just X11 protocol; nothing LTSP specific there either
16:46
<Lantizia__>
I've only ever done 'fat clients' on some 30 odd PC's under LTSP v5
16:46
<ogra`>
well ... in fact it was the ssh protocol
16:46
<vagrantc>
ogra`: X11 over ssh :P
16:46
<ogra`>
😄
16:46
<Lantizia__>
as they're got the RAM and CPU to just load everything in and run the apps themselves over NFS
16:46
<muhwalt>
more semantics, here we go! :P
16:47
<vagrantc>
in that sense there was *some* specific LTSP stuff, but not for connecting arbitrary things to LTSP
16:47
<Lantizia__>
but if I *had* done 'thin' then ... what, this'd just be an X11 forwarded remote session right?
16:47
either X11 forwarding, XDCMP, X2Go... something like that ?
16:47
<vagrantc>
Lantizia__: that's pretty much what modern LTSP does ... it runs the software locally, but the rootfs, user homedirs, etc. is over the network
16:48
<Lantizia__>
vagrantc, right which is why I'll likely move this room to LTSP 21.01 at some point... but I'm *now* not wanting to talk about fat... want to talk 'thin' :P
16:48
<vagrantc>
Lantizia__: thin clients are now a DIY project; there's nothing specific in LTSP for that
16:48
<Lantizia__>
so when v5 did THIN... it was a *remote* (remote to the PC you're sitting at) session... correct?
16:49
<vagrantc>
and there are reasons to not use thin clients anymore ; the technologies it was based on are bitrotting
16:49
<Lantizia__>
you mean like X11 itself? :D
16:49
<vagrantc>
yes
16:49
<Lantizia__>
I quite agree - but please still... can I get an answer
16:49
<vagrantc>
specifically, network-transparent X11
16:49
Lantizia__: thin clients are now a DIY project; there's nothing specific in LTSP for that
16:50
<Lantizia__>
I'm not asking about *NOW* - I said in v5
16:50
I'm not attempting to use v5 ... don't worry :P
16:50
<vagrantc>
yes, it did X11-over-ssh and there was a display manager to handle that in LTSP 5
16:50
<Lantizia__>
I just want to actually set up the conversation
16:51
<vagrantc>
and there was a configuration option to do X11 over the network directly
16:51
<Lantizia__>
Right - so back in v5 ... someone could have theoretically contacted that LTSP server over the internet and done the X11 forwardig that way... from a normal (i.e. has a hard disk, not network booting) PC with linux or windows
16:51
e.g. X2Go on windows comes with an X11 server
16:51
<vagrantc>
sure
16:51
nothing ltsp specific about that
16:52
<Lantizia__>
Ah but the tools to see what is going on in those desktops was handy for supporting people
16:52
and managing those desktops
16:52
<vagrantc>
not sure what tools you're referring to
16:52
<Lantizia__>
LTSP Manager
16:53
Epoptes
16:53
<vagrantc>
epoptes is still there
16:53
<Lantizia__>
I didn't ask if it had gone anywhere :P
16:53
<vagrantc>
much of what LTSP Manager did is just built-in to modern LTSP
16:54
<Lantizia__>
Right but in the scenario I'm trying to describe - you say... "<vagrantc> nothing ltsp specific about that"
16:54
but the tools *help*
16:54
<vagrantc>
from what i recall, about the only thing that LTSP Manager did that isn't integrated into LTSP is user management
16:55
<Lantizia__>
right ... so wind forward to today - v5 is long ago :P....
16:55
<alkisg>
Lantizia__: the core of what you're looking for is "remote desktop". The most famous technologies for that are: VNC, RDP, x2go/nx/ssh -X/Xorg forwarding. LTSP5 supported ssh -X and Xorg forwarding for thin clients. That never worked with Windows clients.
16:55
<Lantizia__>
if someone wants a single 'Terminal Server' (e.g. think like a windows 'Terminal Server' - which people just RDP to, all day long - from other machine)
16:55
what in the Linux world do they turn to?
16:56
other than NoMachine which has a price tag :P
16:56
<alkisg>
LTSP now is mostly about netbooting. If you don't care about the netbooting part, you would just use VNC, RDP, X2go/nx/ssh -X
16:56
<vagrantc>
Lantizia__: there are client and server-side RDP protocols
16:56
<Lantizia__>
alkisg, no that's not the core - that's the protocol!
16:56
Stop thinking just about the protocols
16:56
<alkisg>
Lantizia__: the core of your question, not of the technologies
16:56
<Lantizia__>
I'm talking about the entire management suite
16:57
<alkisg>
When you want to connect "any tablet or linux or windows pc to a linux server", you talk about remote desktop
16:57
<Lantizia__>
of multiple users sharing one server, for multiple desktops... software installation - helping them out (accessing other peoples desktops for tech support)
16:57
etc...
16:57
<vagrantc>
Lantizia__: i guess we're lost on what you mean by "entire management suite"
16:57
<Lantizia__>
oh I give up
16:57
<ogra`>
epoptes ?
16:57
<Lantizia__>
yeah like what epoptes does/did
16:57
<alkisg>
Solve the "remote desktop" part FIRST, and the others will follow
16:58
<Lantizia__>
well in GNOME 40 they're using wayland the freerdp to do an RDP server
16:58
<alkisg>
For example, if you need windows clients, you forget epoptes, ssh -X, xorg forwarding etc, and you're only left with RDP, X2go, VNC
16:58
<Lantizia__>
so - i'm not happy about using MS's bloody RDP protocol - but there is that way of doing it I guess
16:58
but X11 is for the scrap
16:58
And X2Go is shockingly bad for all the caveats that has
16:59
but again - the protocol is only part of the conundrum
16:59
<vagrantc>
so, what are the missing pieces?
16:59
<alkisg>
Do you require to connect windows clients to the server? Yes or no?
16:59
Do you require to connect android client to the server? Yes or no?
17:00
<Lantizia__>
something else (which LTSP did) that converts a regular linux distro (e.g. ubuntu) into something with the UI tools to easily manage multiple remote users and their desktops
17:00
as well as a protocol that doesn't suck to let them in :P
17:00
I don't personally - but sure, wouldn't it be nice if it did?
17:00
<alkisg>
It would, but when we developed ltsp and epoptes and ltsp-manager, we didn't care about windows
17:01
So if you need windows, you can't use epoptes
17:01
That's where the questions/answers help
17:01
<Lantizia__>
actually if epoptes (at least on v5) can see ltsp desktops (currently running) which are on the ltsp server itself
17:01
and you run an X11 server on windows and do X11 forwarding
17:01
<alkisg>
Epoptes can see any remote desktop sessions, yes
17:02
<Lantizia__>
then yeah I can see epoptes working fine
17:02
(if the end user is on windows)
17:02
<alkisg>
Yes, e.g. it can see x2go or rdp sessions coming from windows
17:02
<Lantizia__>
anyway I've got to do - my lift if here
17:02
<alkisg>
Of course in that case you'll only be able to control the session
17:02
Not the windows computer
17:02
Cheers
17:02
<Lantizia__>
it sounds like a shame there is a void that only NoMachine can fill
17:03
that's all I'm saying
17:03
<alkisg>
nomachine is the same as x2go
17:03
and the same as rdp
17:03
<Lantizia__>
and whilst I completely agree X11 isn't the answer (or any protocol based on it)
17:03
<alkisg>
I don't see any void there
17:03
<Lantizia__>
then after all this time - you never will :P
17:03
bye folks!
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17:04* alkisg still isn't sure what he was asking for :)
17:04
<ogra`>
so (s)he just wanted to kill time until the lift comes ?
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17:05
<alkisg>
Maybe he wanted an integrated rdp+epoptes solution (with client overview/control), especially designed for linux
17:05
<vagrantc>
we'll probably never know
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20:17
<muhwalt>
Semantics over the use of "Terminal Server" ;)
20:20
<vagrantc>
the name is arguably historical
20:21
<muhwalt>
No doubt. However I wouldn't argue a projects name in their own channel because it didn't do what I thought it would do ;)
20:21
No doubt. However I wouldn't argue a projects name in their own channel because it didn't do what I thought it *should* do ;)
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20:44
<alkisg>
He wanted remote desktop from windows; that's not really a "terminal"
20:45
and android etc etc...
20:47
<vagrantc>
indeed
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