IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 7 July 2021 (all times are UTC)
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| 16:31 | <Lantizia__> hey can you still use LTSP v5 with no PC's?
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| 16:31 | i.e. run it on 1 PC and just RDP (or some equiv) to that from regular non-LTSP non-Netbooting PC's/tablets
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| 16:31 | like an actual "Terminal Server" (to use Windows terminology)
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| 16:32 | <vagrantc> wouldn't recommend ltsp v5 (the newer versions are much better)
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| 16:32 | <Lantizia__> As we're a nonprofit seeking something like this... and the only thing out there seems to be NoMachine which isn't free (in either definition!)
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| 16:32 | <vagrantc> i'm not sure there are hooks to set up RDP out of the box, but shouldn't be difficult to write something
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| 16:33 | <Lantizia__> I thought 5 was the latest now - the rewritten one?
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| 16:33 | <vagrantc> ltsp 5 was from ~2005 :)
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| 16:33 | <Lantizia__> sorry I mean the latest one then - not 5 :)
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| 16:33 | is the newer one called v6 then?
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| 16:33 | <vagrantc> no
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| 16:33 | it's date-based
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| 16:34 | <Lantizia__> so LTSP 2019 ?
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| 16:34 | <vagrantc> last release was 21.01
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| 16:34 | <Lantizia__> ah ok :)
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| 16:35 | so I guess I'm asking if LTSP 21.01 can support VNC/RDP/XDMCP/NX(or X2Go) remote connections inbound ... and thus *no* netbooting clients at all.
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| 16:35 | and is there any docs on that? as the front page of ltsp.org seems to *specifically* not talk about the project in that way any more
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| 16:35 | <vagrantc> it can support anything you could set up on a regular desktop machine
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| 16:36 | there's far less that is LTSP-specific anymore
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| 16:36 | it's just a way to network-boot your computer now, pretty much
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| 16:37 | computers, rather :)
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| 16:37 | and manage the network-booted images, etc.
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| 16:38 | e.g. run an x2go or rdp or vnc client fullscreen and there you are
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| 16:38 | <Lantizia__> I guess I'm comparing to this... https://www.nomachine.com/comparison-terminal-server-products
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| 16:39 | Which is what would more commonly be seen as a 'Terminal Server' type product/software
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| 16:39 | Which'll manage multiple 'virtual desktops' and let an admin look at them, troubleshoot for other users, etc...
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| 16:40 | <vagrantc> can probably do something like set up nodm to spawn an RDP client and off you go
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| 16:40 | <Lantizia__> So it's got the tools around it... more than just multiple X11 sessions (and X11 is eventually going to make way for Wayland)
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| 16:40 | eh? an RDP *client* ?
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| 16:40 | more like server, are we talking about the same thing here
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| 16:40 | <vagrantc> xfreerdp, for example ?
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| 16:41 | well, the server runs the server-side stuff, and on the terminal you would run a client
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| 16:41 | <Lantizia__> yeah - no terminal :)
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| 16:42 | <vagrantc> a terminal server is something that provides access to terminals, pretty much by definition :P
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| 16:42 | <Lantizia__> I'm talking about 1 machine which runs the LTSP software (and a distro)... and literally *any* PC/tablet in the world can remote into *that*.
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| 16:42 | <vagrantc> there's nothing related to LTSP in the scenario you're talking about
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| 16:42 | <Lantizia__> right so translating from NoMachine speak... 'virtual desktop' == 'terminal' :P
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| 16:43 | <muhwalt> the terminal is the client used to access it, I think? If we want to argue semantics ;)
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| 16:43 | <vagrantc> LTSP provides the infrastructure to network boot computers which use a common rootfs from the network
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| 16:43 | <Lantizia__> right - I'm talking about none of that
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| 16:43 | <vagrantc> Lantizia__: there's not really any specific LTSP software for arbitrary clients to connect to
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| 16:44 | <muhwalt> LTSP is probably not the solution you're looking for
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| 16:44 | <vagrantc> PC/Tablet/whatever
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| 16:44 | <Lantizia__> the 'thin client' mode of LTSP runs on the LTSP server itself right? as an X11 session?
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| 16:45 | <muhwalt> That's not in-scope for ltsp anymore
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| 16:45 | <vagrantc> not really anymore; it's more just network booted computers now ... you can of course run and configure whatever you want
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| 16:45 | <Lantizia__> but was for v5 ?
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| 16:45 | <vagrantc> Lantizia__: there was nothing in LTSP 5 to do what you're talking about either
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| 16:46 | it was just X11 protocol; nothing LTSP specific there either
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| 16:46 | <Lantizia__> I've only ever done 'fat clients' on some 30 odd PC's under LTSP v5
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| 16:46 | <ogra`> well ... in fact it was the ssh protocol
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| 16:46 | <vagrantc> ogra`: X11 over ssh :P
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| 16:46 | <ogra`> 😄
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| 16:46 | <Lantizia__> as they're got the RAM and CPU to just load everything in and run the apps themselves over NFS
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| 16:46 | <muhwalt> more semantics, here we go! :P
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| 16:47 | <vagrantc> in that sense there was *some* specific LTSP stuff, but not for connecting arbitrary things to LTSP
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| 16:47 | <Lantizia__> but if I *had* done 'thin' then ... what, this'd just be an X11 forwarded remote session right?
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| 16:47 | either X11 forwarding, XDCMP, X2Go... something like that ?
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| 16:47 | <vagrantc> Lantizia__: that's pretty much what modern LTSP does ... it runs the software locally, but the rootfs, user homedirs, etc. is over the network
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| 16:48 | <Lantizia__> vagrantc, right which is why I'll likely move this room to LTSP 21.01 at some point... but I'm *now* not wanting to talk about fat... want to talk 'thin' :P
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| 16:48 | <vagrantc> Lantizia__: thin clients are now a DIY project; there's nothing specific in LTSP for that
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| 16:48 | <Lantizia__> so when v5 did THIN... it was a *remote* (remote to the PC you're sitting at) session... correct?
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| 16:49 | <vagrantc> and there are reasons to not use thin clients anymore ; the technologies it was based on are bitrotting
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| 16:49 | <Lantizia__> you mean like X11 itself? :D
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| 16:49 | <vagrantc> yes
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| 16:49 | <Lantizia__> I quite agree - but please still... can I get an answer
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| 16:49 | <vagrantc> specifically, network-transparent X11
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| 16:49 | Lantizia__: thin clients are now a DIY project; there's nothing specific in LTSP for that
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| 16:50 | <Lantizia__> I'm not asking about *NOW* - I said in v5
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| 16:50 | I'm not attempting to use v5 ... don't worry :P
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| 16:50 | <vagrantc> yes, it did X11-over-ssh and there was a display manager to handle that in LTSP 5
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| 16:50 | <Lantizia__> I just want to actually set up the conversation
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| 16:51 | <vagrantc> and there was a configuration option to do X11 over the network directly
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| 16:51 | <Lantizia__> Right - so back in v5 ... someone could have theoretically contacted that LTSP server over the internet and done the X11 forwardig that way... from a normal (i.e. has a hard disk, not network booting) PC with linux or windows
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| 16:51 | e.g. X2Go on windows comes with an X11 server
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| 16:51 | <vagrantc> sure
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| 16:51 | nothing ltsp specific about that
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| 16:52 | <Lantizia__> Ah but the tools to see what is going on in those desktops was handy for supporting people
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| 16:52 | and managing those desktops
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| 16:52 | <vagrantc> not sure what tools you're referring to
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| 16:52 | <Lantizia__> LTSP Manager
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| 16:53 | Epoptes
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| 16:53 | <vagrantc> epoptes is still there
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| 16:53 | <Lantizia__> I didn't ask if it had gone anywhere :P
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| 16:53 | <vagrantc> much of what LTSP Manager did is just built-in to modern LTSP
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| 16:54 | <Lantizia__> Right but in the scenario I'm trying to describe - you say... "<vagrantc> nothing ltsp specific about that"
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| 16:54 | but the tools *help*
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| 16:54 | <vagrantc> from what i recall, about the only thing that LTSP Manager did that isn't integrated into LTSP is user management
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| 16:55 | <Lantizia__> right ... so wind forward to today - v5 is long ago :P....
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| 16:55 | <alkisg> Lantizia__: the core of what you're looking for is "remote desktop". The most famous technologies for that are: VNC, RDP, x2go/nx/ssh -X/Xorg forwarding. LTSP5 supported ssh -X and Xorg forwarding for thin clients. That never worked with Windows clients.
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| 16:55 | <Lantizia__> if someone wants a single 'Terminal Server' (e.g. think like a windows 'Terminal Server' - which people just RDP to, all day long - from other machine)
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| 16:55 | what in the Linux world do they turn to?
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| 16:56 | other than NoMachine which has a price tag :P
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| 16:56 | <alkisg> LTSP now is mostly about netbooting. If you don't care about the netbooting part, you would just use VNC, RDP, X2go/nx/ssh -X
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| 16:56 | <vagrantc> Lantizia__: there are client and server-side RDP protocols
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| 16:56 | <Lantizia__> alkisg, no that's not the core - that's the protocol!
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| 16:56 | Stop thinking just about the protocols
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| 16:56 | <alkisg> Lantizia__: the core of your question, not of the technologies
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| 16:56 | <Lantizia__> I'm talking about the entire management suite
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| 16:57 | <alkisg> When you want to connect "any tablet or linux or windows pc to a linux server", you talk about remote desktop
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| 16:57 | <Lantizia__> of multiple users sharing one server, for multiple desktops... software installation - helping them out (accessing other peoples desktops for tech support)
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| 16:57 | etc...
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| 16:57 | <vagrantc> Lantizia__: i guess we're lost on what you mean by "entire management suite"
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| 16:57 | <Lantizia__> oh I give up
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| 16:57 | <ogra`> epoptes ?
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| 16:57 | <Lantizia__> yeah like what epoptes does/did
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| 16:57 | <alkisg> Solve the "remote desktop" part FIRST, and the others will follow
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| 16:58 | <Lantizia__> well in GNOME 40 they're using wayland the freerdp to do an RDP server
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| 16:58 | <alkisg> For example, if you need windows clients, you forget epoptes, ssh -X, xorg forwarding etc, and you're only left with RDP, X2go, VNC
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| 16:58 | <Lantizia__> so - i'm not happy about using MS's bloody RDP protocol - but there is that way of doing it I guess
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| 16:58 | but X11 is for the scrap
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| 16:58 | And X2Go is shockingly bad for all the caveats that has
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| 16:59 | but again - the protocol is only part of the conundrum
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| 16:59 | <vagrantc> so, what are the missing pieces?
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| 16:59 | <alkisg> Do you require to connect windows clients to the server? Yes or no?
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| 16:59 | Do you require to connect android client to the server? Yes or no?
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| 17:00 | <Lantizia__> something else (which LTSP did) that converts a regular linux distro (e.g. ubuntu) into something with the UI tools to easily manage multiple remote users and their desktops
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| 17:00 | as well as a protocol that doesn't suck to let them in :P
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| 17:00 | I don't personally - but sure, wouldn't it be nice if it did?
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| 17:00 | <alkisg> It would, but when we developed ltsp and epoptes and ltsp-manager, we didn't care about windows
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| 17:01 | So if you need windows, you can't use epoptes
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| 17:01 | That's where the questions/answers help
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| 17:01 | <Lantizia__> actually if epoptes (at least on v5) can see ltsp desktops (currently running) which are on the ltsp server itself
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| 17:01 | and you run an X11 server on windows and do X11 forwarding
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| 17:01 | <alkisg> Epoptes can see any remote desktop sessions, yes
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| 17:02 | <Lantizia__> then yeah I can see epoptes working fine
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| 17:02 | (if the end user is on windows)
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| 17:02 | <alkisg> Yes, e.g. it can see x2go or rdp sessions coming from windows
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| 17:02 | <Lantizia__> anyway I've got to do - my lift if here
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| 17:02 | <alkisg> Of course in that case you'll only be able to control the session
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| 17:02 | Not the windows computer
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| 17:02 | Cheers
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| 17:02 | <Lantizia__> it sounds like a shame there is a void that only NoMachine can fill
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| 17:03 | that's all I'm saying
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| 17:03 | <alkisg> nomachine is the same as x2go
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| 17:03 | and the same as rdp
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| 17:03 | <Lantizia__> and whilst I completely agree X11 isn't the answer (or any protocol based on it)
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| 17:03 | <alkisg> I don't see any void there
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| 17:03 | <Lantizia__> then after all this time - you never will :P
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| 17:03 | bye folks!
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| 17:04 | * alkisg still isn't sure what he was asking for :) | |
| 17:04 | <ogra`> so (s)he just wanted to kill time until the lift comes ?
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| 17:05 | <alkisg> Maybe he wanted an integrated rdp+epoptes solution (with client overview/control), especially designed for linux
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| 17:05 | <vagrantc> we'll probably never know
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| 20:17 | <muhwalt> Semantics over the use of "Terminal Server" ;)
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| 20:20 | <vagrantc> the name is arguably historical
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| 20:21 | <muhwalt> No doubt. However I wouldn't argue a projects name in their own channel because it didn't do what I thought it would do ;)
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| 20:21 | No doubt. However I wouldn't argue a projects name in their own channel because it didn't do what I thought it *should* do ;)
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| 20:44 | <alkisg> He wanted remote desktop from windows; that's not really a "terminal"
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| 20:45 | and android etc etc...
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| 20:47 | <vagrantc> indeed
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