IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

Channel log from 25 November 2008 (all times are UTC)

00:01	<johnny> sbalneav, it is really nice to see.. that in rhythmbox, it would automatically transcode and copy the files from ogg vorbis into a format that my devices support
00:02	did you know that?
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02:51	<Tomaatti> Hi is there somebody there ?
02:52	<twb> No
02:52	<Eghie> apart from the people on the right of your display, no
02:53	<Tomaatti> yeah well i mean active :)
02:53	<Eghie> hehe, i know :)
02:53	<Tomaatti> Could I ask your advice ?
02:54	<Eghie> ofcourse
02:54	<Tomaatti> We are trying to set up ltsp project using K12ltsp
02:54	however we have multiple servers (3 to be exact)
02:54	and we want to load balance over those 3 servers
02:55	now I have been reading a lot about DHCP balancing
02:55	but this only seems to apply when you are using 1 master and 1 slave
02:55	Is their another way to load balance the requests
02:55	?
02:56	<Eghie> round-robin DNS
02:56	<Tomaatti> is this the best way to do it?
02:57	<Eghie> for example, a hostname can have 3 A records
02:57	which means, it will resolve to anyone of the 3
02:57	<Tomaatti> ok but will this spread the load +- equally?
02:57	<Eghie> no
02:57	roundrobin is a kind of at random load balancing
02:58	<Tomaatti> I read something about LVS there is no real documentation about that
02:58	is it possible to use together with LTSP
03:00	well thx already for the hint i'll try to work it out
03:01	do you think it would be possible to use dns as 'load balancing' in combination with a dhcp failover settings between 2 servers
03:01	?
03:01	<Eghie> I don't know if k12ltsp support clustering
03:01	<Tomaatti> well it doesn't say much about it
03:02	frankly I'm wondering if we made the right choiche
03:02	<Eghie> I know normal LTSP does support it
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03:02	<Eghie> I use Ubuntu intrepid with LTSP
03:02	I know that it has ltsp-cluster packages
03:03	<Tomaatti> does it have a lot of support ?
03:03	<Eghie> commercial support you mean?
03:03	like redhat?
03:04	<Tomaatti> just overall documentation
03:04	<twb> He means: does it have a large and responsive community
03:04	Or, is it just three guys pissing about in their basement
03:04	<Tomaatti> true ;)
03:04	<Eghie> well, some companies demand some sort of commercial support
03:05	<Tomaatti> We choose K12 cause it seemed an out of the box solution with a lot of documentation
03:05	However this doesnt seem to be the case
03:05	<Eghie> but yes, LTSP has a lot of good documentation in my opinion
03:06	and one of the most active communities I have seen in a long time
03:06	<sep> Tomaatti, ltsp in debian and ubuntu does support some loadbalancing
03:06	<twb> sep: balancing load of what?
03:06	sep: you mean having three LTSP servers and sharing 300 clients between them equally?
03:07	<Tomaatti> twb: that was we need
03:07	something like that
03:07	<sep> twb, only at logintime, not moving running sessions between servers
03:07	<twb> sep: cool
03:08	<Tomaatti> that not to bad
03:08	<twb> sep: what we did was really ugly
03:08	<Tomaatti> ^is
03:08	<twb> sep: "if the client's IP is odd, connect to server #2"
03:08	That was using Knoppix 4 back in 2004
03:10	<Tomaatti> Could i ask something else? Is it possible to load balance using MAC addresses (so assigning 1 desktop to one 1 fixed server)?
03:11	<twb> Tomaatti: you can do that at the PXE level by telling the DHCP server to provide a different TFTP server IP to each MAC
03:11	<Eghie> Tomaatti, are those servers in the same network connected with minimum of 100mbit?
03:11	<sep> this is how it is done in skolelinux, (debian-edu) http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Etch/HowTo/NetworkClients
03:12	<Tomaatti> Eghie: yes they should be one the same network
03:12	<Eghie> Tomaatti, I guess you want to give those clients a fixed server, because of their homedirectories, right?
03:14	<Tomaatti> Not really but it would make life easier.
03:14	<sep> using the get_hosts script you can easily check things like mac/ip/hostname and specify the server ip for those. and loadbalance the rest,. or whatever you like
03:14	<Tomaatti> The purpose is: if we could give them a fixed ip
03:14	fixed server I mean
03:14	we could control the load balancing
03:14	ok
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03:15	<Tomaatti> but the get_hosts script is in /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/...
03:15	<twb> Tomaatti: that's not really load balancing
03:15	<Tomaatti> no I know
03:16	but round robin isn't either so :s
03:16	<twb> Tomaatti: load balancing is where the server automatically notices that fifteen machines in lab #1 are on, and only 2 in lab #2, so it gives some of the lab #1 machines to the second server
03:16	Proper load balancing is hard
03:16	<Tomaatti> twb: yup I know
03:16	but we need something that works at this point :)
03:16	<Eghie> Tomaatti, LVS is indeed mostly used for that on the webserver side
03:17	I don't know how to combine LVS and LTSP
03:18	<Tomaatti> Eghie: indd I have seen a lot of people talking about it but no-one really implementing/documentating it
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03:19	<Tomaatti> + K12ltsp doesnt seem to have a get_hosts file in its chroot env :(
03:20	<Eghie> LVS is layer 4 switching
03:20	<Tomaatti> so it should work right?
03:20	<Eghie> yes
03:20	with every UDP/TCP service on earth I guess
03:21	<Tomaatti> ah well I'll try some things out
03:21	the problem is I need to confirm if we can load balance today, so I really got a time issue
03:22	but I guess i'll suggest round robin dns
03:22	<randra> j drbd
03:22	<Tomaatti> in combination with failover dhcp over 2 ltsp servers
03:22	<Eghie> round robin DNS is fast
03:22	<twb> I have LTSP5 booting and auto-logging in by setting LDM_USERNAME, LDM_PASSWORD and LDM_AUTOLOGIN
03:22	<Eghie> to implement
03:22	<twb> But I tried to set LDM_COMMAND=xterm and it didn't fire up an xterm -- it started GNOME
03:23	<Tomaatti> and then try out the out other solutions until i'll find something good and working :)
03:23	but indd round robin dns is an easy one and it should work
03:24	<twb> Tomaatti: you might have problems if you round-robin a writable NFS /home partition...
03:24	For read-only NBD you could probably do it on a per-packet basis like that, although I haven't tried it.
03:25	<Eghie> or get the IP on boot of the host and further use the IP for connecting
03:25	so the roundrobin only works on boot for 1 server
03:25	for the rest of the session it uses that server
03:25	<ogra> guys ... there is a link to documentation in the topic
03:25	* ogra wonders why nobody reads it :)
03:25	<ogra> for loadbalancing see https://launchpad.net/ltsp-cluster
03:25	<twb> ogra: I long for the personal touch
03:26	<ogra> (it is included in ubuntu jaunty (the current ubuntu development release)
03:26	twb, well, it would have told you that there is no LDM_COMMAND ;) but that you have to use LDM_SESSION ...
03:27	<Tomaatti> ogra : so its better to choose the Ubuntu distro for ltsp?
03:27	<ogra> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ has also a lot of info
03:27	Tomaatti, what do you run now ?
03:27	<twb> ogra: thanks :-)
03:27	<Tomaatti> k12ltsp
03:28	<ogra> well, i have no idea how far the loadbalancing stuff in fedora is
03:28	<Tomaatti> which i thought was a good idea because the wiki seem to had a lot of documentation, until i started reading it
03:28	<ogra> it was developed on ubuntu
03:29	<Tomaatti> yeah it also seems that main stream ltsp documentation is also based on ubuntu
03:29	<ogra> if it comes to bare ltsp ubuntu, debian and fedora are eaqually far in implementation ... gentoo is near (not sure how far they are yet)
03:29	<Tomaatti> cause it use a lot of apt-get and such (could also be debian ofc)
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03:29	<Tomaatti> what would you suggest if we need clustering?
03:29	<ogra> thats because ltsp5 was initially developed on ubuntu in cooperation with debian
03:30	<Tomaatti> so ubuntu is a better way to go ?
03:30	<ogra> but that changed about a year ago, gentoo and fedora came aboard
03:30	<twb> IMO Ubuntu is a more maintainable system in any case.
03:30	<ogra> so if you look at plain ltsp there wont be much difference between the distros
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03:30	<twb> ogra: that worked, thanks
03:31	<ogra> ltsp-cluster though is a prot of the former mille-xterm project to ubuntu, i dont think it has been ported or tested on many other distros yet
03:31	*port
03:32	the launchapd page i pointed to has packages and all for the last ubuntu release, the next release will likely include the full ltsp-cluster suite
03:33	so for loadbalancing i'd indeed recommend ubuntu currently
03:33	<Tomaatti> so installing it simple apt-get and configure it
03:33	maybe adding some repo's and stuff?
03:33	<ogra> right
03:34	the wiki on https://launchpad.net/ltsp-cluster should have info
03:34	<Tomaatti> and will this work in combination with pxe-boot ? (i guess so)
03:34	<ogra> for a plain ltsp install see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
03:34	indeed it will
03:35	it sets up everything automatically
03:35	<twb> What's the status of AIGLX in LTSP?
03:35	i.e. so remote glxgears is really fast
03:35	<ogra> ltsp doesnt include the closed drivers
03:36	<Tomaatti> we also are considering remote desktop using a combination of vnc (since ltsp seems to work with this) and openvpn
03:36	<twb> AIGLX requires closed-source drivers?
03:36	<ogra> it should work relatively well with intel cards in the clients though
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03:36	<twb> Right, I think this xterm is intel-based
03:36	<Tomaatti> is it still possible to load balance then ?
03:36	johnny is now known as Guest54516
03:36	<twb> It's a Compaq t50000
03:36	<ogra> the loadbalancing is closely integrated with the display manager (LDM)
03:37	so it wont work with vnc or something i guess
03:37	<twb> $cow-orker tells me it is using the predecessor to the Intel Atom design
03:37	But glxgears tell me that it's doing indirect rendering, and the gears don't spin at all
03:38	<ogra> well, intel graphics cards should generally provide AIGLX, i'm not sure how far the apps know about it being run remote though, might require some tinkering
03:38	<twb> Hmm, and glxinfo causes the whole system to halt, just like on Ubuntu
03:38	<ogra> you might need a custom xorg.conf for it
03:38	<Tomaatti> but would it be possible to still connect the outside users to 1 server and just not use load balancing on them?
03:38	<twb> ogra: OK, I'll look into that later
03:38	<ogra> that should be possible, yes
03:39	<twb> ogra: so long as its "should be possible", that's good enough for me for now
03:39	How can I test if remote USB support is working (that is, plug a USB key into the xterm and see it on the server)
03:40	<ogra> Tomaatti, LDM gets the actual load data from all servers it knows and will automatically connect the user to the one with least load ... having such a feature in vnc or rdesktop is indeed a bit tricky :)
03:40	twb, wait for stgraber to get online (he is in a US timezone) i know he has compiz running on his clients
03:40	<twb> cool.
03:40	<Tomaatti> well that is not really a concern cause "out-of-the-office" won't be a large number
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03:41	<ogra> twb, local device suport should work out of the box
03:41	<Tomaatti> but could they still connect to the ltsp server ( not using load balancing) and login?
03:41	<ogra> for CDrom, USB keys and floppies at least
03:42	<twb> ogra: I suppose if I boot GNOME it should just pop up or something?
03:42	<ogra> Tomaatti, you need to set up some kind of VNC server or install NX-server or some such
03:42	<twb> I don't normally use GUIs myself so I don't know how they are supposed to behave
03:42	<ogra> twb, right, it will be mounted in /media/$USER/<devicename>
03:43	<twb> ogra: will that happen even if I use a custom LDM_SESSION?
03:43	<ogra> and the desktop should pick it up automatically from there
03:43	depends if your desktop monitors /media
03:43	<twb> That's fine, as long as its mounted
03:44	<ogra> i think xfce and kde need some handholding
03:44	<twb> I'm not making a desktop, just a single-app kiosk POS thing
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03:44	<ogra> gnome monitors /media mounts by default and will just work
03:44	<Tomaatti> ogra: thanks for the help , it's not yet clear how to solve this puzzle but we will see
03:45	<ogra> twb, then you might be intrested n the --kiosk mode of ltsp-build-client (see the ubuntu wiki on help.ubuntu.com)
03:45	twb, it runs the session (single app and window manager) directly on the client
03:46	* ogra has to rush out now to get winter tires on his car ... back in 1-2h
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03:52	<laga> ogra: a bit late, huh?
03:52	;)
03:59	jstephan: dfki.uni-sb.de? neat :)
03:59	<twb> ogra: I think the client doesn't want to app running on the xterm
03:59	ogra: I think my customer doesn't want to app running on the xterm
03:59	(Using "client" in two contexts is kinda confusing :-)
04:00	The USB key I tried didn't get mounted under /media/al/ when using the default GNOME session -- in fact there is no /media/al/.
04:01	I blame SLES 10 for this, it was complaining about being unable to find ltspfs. I'll investigate that later.
04:01	<Tomaatti> dfki as in Xtramind?
04:01	<laga> Tomaatti: yeah
04:01	<Tomaatti> lol i did my internship there :)
04:01	<laga> ;)
04:02	<Tomaatti> didnt they move to Karlsruhe or something like that
04:02	<laga> Tomaatti: i'm not sure about xtramind, but the DFKI has several sites
04:02	<Tomaatti> yup I know :)
04:03	We worked for Xtramind @ saarbrucken :)
04:03	nice university :)
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04:04	<laga> Tomaatti: yeah, that's were i'm sitting right now (old computational linguists building)
04:05	<cyberorg> twb, you need ltsp-server and ltspfs package both installed, but i doubt local apps will work on SLED, minimum openSUSE 11.0 is recommended for local dev/apps
04:05	you can try out anyway
04:06	<laga> jstephan: at which lab are you working, if you don't mind me asking?
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04:27	<jstephan> laga: what do you wanne know?
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04:35	<twb> The customer won't let me upgrade to SLES11 :-(
04:35	Home time now, since it's 9:30
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05:30	<laga> jstephan: oh, i was just wondering since i'll start as a research assistant there next week
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05:31	<nicku> hello.. how can i make ltsp client to automatically start rdesktop at boot
05:31	<Tomaatti> could somebody tell me this , can i login on terminal using vnc and another one using ldm
05:31	nicku
05:31	that is an option in lts.conf i guess
05:32	<nicku> Tomaatti: yes but i haven't been able to make it work
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05:32	<nicku> i added screen_02 = "rdesktop ip"
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05:32	<Tomaatti> ok
05:33	and now ?
05:33	what error does it give on screen 2
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05:33	<nicku> nothing
05:33	it jsut doesn't do anything
05:33	<Tomaatti> let me try it (i'm a noob as well :))
05:34	<cyberorg> nicku, SCREEN_08 = rdesktop RDP_SERVER = 10.0.0.254 RDP_OPTIONS = -u geeko -z -f
05:34	<nicku> cyberorg: can i make it log somewhere
05:34	or is there something it should be in screen 08
05:35	<cyberorg> RDP_SERVER = your server IP
05:35	-u username (geeko for example)
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05:38	<Tomaatti> hmmz cyberorg
05:39	could you tell me
05:39	can i use ldm and gdm (startx) together?
05:39	<nicku> cyberorg: do i need to modify the rdesktop script
05:39	<cyberorg> nicku, no
05:39	Tomaatti, yes you can
05:40	<Tomaatti> so for example i could logon locally (thin client wise) with ldm
05:40	<cyberorg> nicku, just add those three variables in lts.conf
05:40	<Tomaatti> and using a remote vnc connection using gdm
05:40	?
05:40	<nicku> cyberorg: i have those there except i have screen_02
05:40	i'll try to put it in 08
05:41	<cyberorg> Tomaatti, xdmcp, is almost like VNC, when you use LDM_DIRECTX=True that is what it uses
05:41	<jstephan> laga: in Saarbrücken?
05:42	<Tomaatti> cyberorg, isnt this slower over internet connection
05:42	<jstephan> laga: i just working for the infratructuregroup here
05:42	<laga> jstephan: yes
05:42	jstephan: ah
05:42	<cyberorg> Tomaatti, hmm, ltsp is not meant to be used over internet
05:42	<jstephan> laga: where will you join?
05:43	<laga> jstephan: i'll be working on the musing project in the LT lab
05:43	<cyberorg> Tomaatti, better use NX or rdp server for access over internet
05:44	<jstephan> laga: never heared of it, but i wish you a lot of fun
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05:46	<laga> jstephan: thanks, i'm sure i'll have fun :)
05:46	jstephan: do you have LTSP deployed at the dfki?
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05:47	<jstephan> laga: just working on it, maybe it will take off in some weeks,
05:48	<laga> jstephan: sweet. who'll get it?
05:49	<jstephan> laga: fi think first we will try it at the CCEL Group, to get their rooms switched, when it works fine it will be spreaden
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09:40	<pscheie> warren, ping
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09:40	<scythelap> hi
09:42	where do I have to install flash plugin for firefox, to use it on my 32bit clients? on the 64bit server or in /opt/ltsp/i386 ?
09:43	I need msttcorefonts too, do they have to be installed on the 64bit server or in the dir for the clients?
09:43	<ogra> everything needs to go on the client
09:43	err
09:43	server, sorry
09:44	unless you have a release that uses localapp support already, thne you could install firefox and friends on the client if the client is powerful enough
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09:46	<scythelap> ogra: so if I install firefox 64bit and flash plugin 10 alpha 64bit on the server, the 32 bit clients can use them?
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09:46	<ogra> s/can/will/ :)
09:46	<Blinny> heh
09:46	<scythelap> :)
09:46	<Blinny> "theoretically"...
09:46	<ogra> your user session runs on the server :)
09:47	Blinny, ?
09:47	<Blinny> theoretically, it _should_ work
09:47	<ogra> Blinny, the clients have to unless you fiddled with setting up localapps
09:47	<Blinny> Ubuntu doesn't yet have the 64-bit alpha flash player in a package does it? It just came out last week
09:48	* ogra points out that the question was "will the clients use that" :)
09:48	<ogra> i didnt make any assumption how well or bad it will work :)
09:48	<Blinny> Ah!
09:49	<ogra> though in ubuntu and fedora at least the 32bit plugin will be installed and used throug nspluginwrapper by default anyway
09:49	<nubae> why oh why are we forced to use an ever increasing number of versioning tools
09:49	<ogra> nubae, ?
09:50	<nubae> cvs, svn, git, bzr, etc, etc
09:50	* ogra only uses bzr ...
09:50	<nubae> u never have to check out stuff that is in say subversion only?
09:50	<ogra> use launchpad :) it imports the world (or most of it) inot bzr
09:50	<nubae> or antiquated cvs
09:51	<ogra> i have to use git since i work with ARM hardware ... simply because kernel trees in bzr dont make sense ...
09:51	but my usage of gi doest go beyond checking out something
09:51	<scythelap> another thing ;) ... is it possible to run a printer on one of the clients and configure it with cups?
09:51	<ogra> ??
09:51	how else would you cnfigure it ? :)
09:51	<nubae> with teapots
09:51	:p
09:51	<ogra> is it a usb printer ?
09:52	<scythelap> ogra: yes
09:52	<ogra> if so, just set: PRINTER_0_DEVICE=/dev/lpusb0 in lts.conf
09:52	the printer will appear as jetdirect printer to the client network
09:53	so if you are logged in, just configure a jetdirect printer that points to the client IP
09:53	* Gadi thinks it may be: /dev/usblp0 or /dev/usb/lp0
09:53	<ogra> no
09:53	<scythelap> fine :)
09:53	<Gadi> have things changed?
09:54	<ogra> well, depends on the distro, but ubuntu definately only uses /dev/usblp0
09:54	<Gadi> right
09:54	<ogra> and i assume debian too
09:54	<Gadi> and you wrote: /dev/lpusb0
09:54	;)
09:54	<ogra> oops
09:54	<Gadi> hehe
09:54	<ogra> blind me
09:55	<Gadi> at one point ubuntu used /dev/usb/lp0 - or some ubuntu package created that dev
09:55	not sure when or what or how
09:55	:)
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09:56	<ogra> udev ... but surely /dev/usblp0 was a link to it
09:56	<scythelap> ogra: how is it with a printer on lpt? is it possible to run this on a client too?
09:56	<nubae> anyone know if a perl interpreter for php exists as a package?
09:56	* nubae says totally unrelated to ltsp
09:57	<Gadi> ogra: ah yes: 20-names.rules vs 60-symlinks.rules
09:57	so both are good
09:57	<ogra> not sure
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09:58	<ogra> i know that /dev/usblp0 will always have the right perms
09:58	so i dont recommend anything else
09:58	<scythelap> ok
09:58	<Gadi> nubae: a perl interpreter for php?
09:58	<nubae> yeah to run perl inside php
09:58	<Gadi> oh
09:58	make a system call
09:58	<nubae> legacy script migration nightmare
09:58	<Gadi> :)
09:58	<nubae> exec, yeah thought of that
09:59	but kinda insecure I thought
09:59	<ogra> wrap it in C !!!
09:59	<Gadi> depends on how you call it
09:59	hehe wrap it in C
09:59	lol
10:02	<Blinny> Yeah the client makes a link in /dev/usblp0 to /dev/usb/lp0
10:02	er wait
10:03	the other way around! (;
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10:40	<scythelap> bye
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10:48	<rjune> what are you wrapping?
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12:54	<_UsUrPeR_> ...so I am hoping that this won't be one of those "it should just work" things...
12:55	plugging a printer in to a fedora client, then trying to print from the client...
12:55	is that supposed to "just work"?
12:55	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: ordinary fedora desktop, or k12linux thin client?
12:56	<_UsUrPeR_> k12linux
12:56	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: using the printer plugged into a client requires you to edit lts.conf and setup the PRINTER* options to enable jetpipe.
12:56	_UsUrPeR_: upstream docs has stuff about jetpipe
12:56	<_UsUrPeR_> oh thank god
12:56	instructions
12:56	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: however one user reported that jetpipe broke after the changes from that hackfest
12:56	<_UsUrPeR_> hmm
12:56	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: I haven't had anyone else confirm that though
12:57	<_UsUrPeR_> I'll check it out for yo
12:57	u
12:57	<warren> k
12:57	_UsUrPeR_: if it fails despite following directions, i'll point to you RPMS of the previous version to test.
12:57	<_UsUrPeR_> rgr
12:57	thanks warren
12:57	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: note, you need to also setup printers on the server I think
12:58	<_UsUrPeR_> yeah, I tried printing from the server first to make sure it worked at all
12:58	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: I think jetpipe only exports the local printer to the network, the server's own printing config must somehow know about it
12:58	i've never used jetpipe before so you need to ask the others here
12:58	<_UsUrPeR_> this will escalate to each client printing via raw data as an eventuality, but I am taking this one step at a time right now
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13:04	<ogra> warren, afauk the jetpipe code to support serial printers needs a massive cleanup and isnt production ready yet
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13:05	<warren> ogra: is the current code risky to non-serial?
13:05	<ogra> so it may very well be that it breaks (unlikely that it segfaults, since its a simple python script :) )
13:05	warren, i heard it crashes
13:05	<warren> I haven't heard anyone say that the post-hackfest code works at all
13:05	<ogra> even for non serial
13:05	<warren> sigh
13:05	<ogra> ask sbalneav though
13:06	<warren> reverting only jetpipe in my package is not straight forward
13:06	<ogra> i know he had some plan for cleanup
13:06	<warren> because lots of changes around it
13:06	<rjune> warren: you know if rh is hiring?
13:06	<ogra> ah, thats bad
13:06	<warren> rjune: I have no clue.
13:06	rjune: I'm told to point people at http://www.redhat.com/about/careers/
13:06	rjune: add yourself to the database, and write "Warren Togami" as referrer
13:07	rjune: then try to apply to jobs in the DB
13:07	<ogra> _UsUrPeR_, for an usb printer PRINTER_0_DEVICE=/dev/usblp0 in lts.conf should be all you need on the client side
13:07	Q-FUNK has joined #ltsp
13:07	<rjune> warren: that's what I was looking for, thank you
13:07	<ogra> _UsUrPeR_, in the session just set up a jetdirct printer pointing to the client IP
13:07	thats it ...
13:07	<_UsUrPeR_> oh
13:08	* ogra thinks its printer day today ... second time the same question comes up :)
13:08	<warren> rjune: most of our jobs require people to move to a major office
13:09	rjune: looks like Raleigh, NC and Westford, MA have the most openings. our two main offices.
13:10	<rjune> ok
13:11	<warren> rjune: where are you now
13:11	rjune: what do you do, btw?
13:11	<rjune> near chicago
13:12	pmatulis has quit IRC
13:12	<rjune> Right now I build routers and help maintain a linux distro geared for them
13:12	<warren> rjune: it seems like lots of senior engineers at IT companies around the world lost their job lately
13:13	so competition for remaining jobs is especially fierce
13:13	<rjune> i know.
13:14	I do coding, trying to track down a bug in ppp driver so I can fix it. Also working on web services. and I'm involved with infosec as well.
13:15	I also used to have a decent sized fedora repository
13:16	<warren> what distro is the router based on?
13:16	<rjune> we built our own from the ground up.
13:16	www.imagestream.com
13:17	<warren> isn't that a maintenance burden in the long-term?
13:17	the major distros have put a lot of work into making their distro a great base to build derivatives
13:17	<rjune> we fit onto a 16MB flash
13:18	<warren> wow
13:18	<rjune> which a lot of the major distros don't
13:18	<warren> ok
13:18	how much RAM?
13:18	<rjune> 128MB
13:18	<warren> I see
13:18	<rjune> that's the low end.
13:18	we're actually using 128MB flash modules too, but the system actually fits into 16MB
13:19	<warren> If you are secure in your current job, don't be too adventurous, I think.
13:19	Things will suck more before they get better.
13:19	<rjune> there's a reason I'm looking.
13:20	<warren> I see.
13:20	<rjune> death spiral.
13:20	I've contributed to ltsp, which you know, and busybox too.
13:20	I wrote the initial -h code for ls, df, et all in busybox
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13:20	<rjune> where -h is human readable
13:20	and some other minor patchs
13:21	<warren> rjune: hmmm, how well do you know busybox internals?
13:22	rjune: what I've been wondering for a while, is how difficult it would be to replace the sh interpreter in busybox with a more full featured sh like bash.
13:22	<rjune> Not sure, I have to build the latest version for our routers soon. so I'll have a chance to look at it before too much longer.
13:23	but I understand how they do what they do, and how to add applets.
13:23	<warren> I want to split bash into libbash, and use libbash in the initrd
13:23	with busybox tools
13:24	anyway, I gotta focus, bbl
13:24	<rjune> 'k
13:24	<CAN-o-SPAM_> warren: do you have a minute?
13:25	<warren> CAN-o-SPAM_: ?
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13:32	<_UsUrPeR_> warren: can I get those previous version RPMS?
13:32	I'm having the issues you may have described earlier
13:34	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: hold a sec
13:34	<_UsUrPeR_> k
13:35	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: http://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/packages/ltsp/5.1.32/ http://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/packages/ldm/2.0.16/
13:35	_UsUrPeR_: make sure you have the matching RPMS and the matching archs for both client and server
13:36	_UsUrPeR_: rpm -Uvh filename.rpm --oldpackage to force a downgrade
13:36	<_UsUrPeR_> warren: ok, thanks
13:37	<ogra> warren, uh, why so heavyweight ? libbash sounds horribly heavy ... why not dash ?
13:37	<warren> ogra: our folks insist that dash is sily
13:37	silly
13:38	<ogra> its fast and light
13:38	<rjune> but doesn't do everything bash does.
13:38	<_UsUrPeR_> maybe libfast? :)
13:38	<ogra> debian did a lot of resarch around the speedups and sill likely switch to it after lenny
13:38	s/sill/will/
13:39	<warren> ogra: our top engineers did the same testing and found almost no benefit
13:39	I don't know
13:39	I didn't test it myself
13:39	<ogra> rjune, it is fully POSIX compliant ... and doesnt add the overhead bash needs to do all the non compliant stuff
13:40	<rjune> we use bash internally. trying to change things in this place though is like trying to turn a battlship using nothing but a 50' rope
13:40	* Q-FUNK wonders what a DOMINATRIX compliant shell would look like
13:41	<ogra> well, after using dash for two years as the default script shell in ubuntu i personaly find most things bash adds on top silly
13:41	<rjune> Q-FUNK: You WOULD OBEY it
13:41	* warren wont comment.
13:41	<rjune> I've not used dash at all. I probably should. but like I said, it won't change anything here.
13:41	<warren> ogra: my biggest complaint about dash is the string replace stuff
13:41	<rjune> which is part of the death spiral
13:41	<Q-FUNK> rjune: grin
13:42	<warren> and how much overhead would adding "." be?
13:42	source == .
13:42	<ogra> == isnt posix :)
13:44	warren, all ltsp scripts run in dash in ubuntu, is there anything you really miss in our scripts?
13:44	* ogra found after a while that you just write cleaner and more readable code after using dash for a while
13:44	<warren> sometime soon I'll do a bash vs dash comparison in fedora with our initscripts
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13:56	<dberkholz> i think the difference was pretty minimal here
13:56	<_UsUrPeR_> warren: what is the link to the upstream docs?
13:56	<dberkholz> much bigger difference from rewriting the core of our init system in C
13:56	<warren> umm
13:56	I don't know
13:57	<_UsUrPeR_> k
14:01	<ogra> !docs
14:01	<ltspbot> ogra: "docs" is For the most current documentation, see http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
14:01	<ogra> :)
14:01	_UsUrPeR_, there is also a wee hint in the channel topic :)
14:01	<_UsUrPeR_> hah. thanks
14:11	<rjune> ogra: wee? You went scottish?
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14:27	<_UsUrPeR_> warren: it was an SELinux problem. Didn't need the old .rpms after all
14:27	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: what is the actual AVC from /var/log/audit/audit.log?
14:27	_UsUrPeR_: file a bug, it can be fixed quickly
14:28	<vagrantc> switching /bin/sh to dash in debian sped up boot times by something like 30%
14:29	<_UsUrPeR_> warren: SElinux was blocking cups from reading the host file. We were using ws070 as the host name for the workstation
14:29	<vagrantc> it's memory footprint is much smaller, and it takes less time to load off the disk ... pulls in less shared libraries ... it's just plain faster.
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14:29	<_UsUrPeR_> warren: when we used the specific ip address, it went through no problem
14:29	* _UsUrPeR_ needs to type out the audit log, so he will be a moment
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14:30	<warren> _UsUrPeR_: ooh, that sounds like a non-LTSP specific bug, that's good.
14:30	<_UsUrPeR_> warren: correctomundo! :D
14:30	unfortunately, selinux is the equivalent of my sarlack pit, so I may just have to come up with a workaround ;)
14:31	<warren> you identified a bug that should be fixed
14:31	selinux policy problems are only bugs
14:31	I've only had to disable selinux ONCE in the last 1.5 years to workaround a problem
14:31	it was fixed 2 days later
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14:33	<metalfan_> hi
14:33	<_UsUrPeR_> welp, I'm going to put this bug in then
14:33	<metalfan_> will the server handle all the workload and just receive input/send results back to the client?
14:34	<warren> ogra: if the code is dash syntax, does bash screw up running it ever?
14:38	<rjune> metalfan_: that is the general plan, yes
14:39	<metalfan_> is there information about the delay compared to solutions like nx or tightvnc?
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14:45	<zoggop> hello
14:46	does anyone have issues with using flash in firefox on a thinclient?
14:46	<metalfan_> ..in firefox... ?
14:47	alkisg has quit IRC
14:47	<zoggop> yup...
14:47	<cliebow> COAMikeyB, wazzup?
14:47	<COAMikeyB> Yo
14:47	<cliebow> hi
14:47	<COAMikeyB> Hey there.
14:47	<cliebow> if i cant i am sure there is someone here who can
14:48	<COAMikeyB> Working on my LTSP box again. It seems that if someone turns off a thin client wihtout logging out the processes live forever. I didn't know if anyone solved that with a script and cron job to clean up ghosts.
14:49	<cliebow> ogra?
14:49	<COAMikeyB> Or if there is another way to do a RAM quote for clients like a disc quota so nobody takes down the system.
14:49	The Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association?
14:50	Oh, Ogra is a person here.
14:50	I thought it was a program's name. I was googleing for it.
14:50	<cliebow> on my old 4.2 i put a pkill in errr..ohh i use icewm so i stuffed something in .icewm
14:50	<_UsUrPeR_> way to ingratiate yourself ;)
14:50	<cliebow> except for root ;-]
14:50	<COAMikeyB> Sorry, it was not meant as any slight.
14:50	<cliebow> COAMikeyB, ogra basically wrote ltsp5 for ubuntu
14:51	<COAMikeyB> It was what Google told me an Google isn't wrong ;)
14:51	<rjune> COAMikeyB: ogra's not from OK
14:51	<_UsUrPeR_> lol
14:51	<COAMikeyB> I am reading the ogra blog now.
14:51	<cliebow> with help from his friends
14:51	ogra knows all
14:51	* _UsUrPeR_ googles ogra
14:51	<_UsUrPeR_> haha oh wow. first link.
14:52	<COAMikeyB> Yup.
14:52	* cliebow cliebow googles himself
14:52	<rjune> not in public
14:52	<cliebow> wee!
14:52	<rjune> cliebow: you're all over
14:53	<COAMikeyB> A student of mine just found a "limits.conf" file that looks like it could be the ticket for us.
14:53	<cliebow> ogra shinn fein looks promising
14:53	<rjune> COAMikeyB: limits.conf is good
14:53	but I don't think it's quite what you want
14:53	you should learn it and use it
14:53	<COAMikeyB> I will.
14:54	I have a lot to learn before I make this LTSP a public project.
14:54	We are looking at moving our library and most public terminals to thin clients from an LTSP server/VM.
14:54	<cliebow> you should stay tuned..
14:54	<rjune> I did that at a library a while back
14:54	COAMikeyB: ICEwm with a locked down firefox.
14:54	<cliebow> rjune:COA is from college of the atlantic..stole my job a while back
14:54	<COAMikeyB> How did it go?
14:55	<cliebow> ;-]
14:55	<rjune> I think now I would look at a locked down KDE or GNOME,
14:55	<COAMikeyB> Sorry......
14:55	<rjune> cliebow: I thought you worked at ellesworth for ever.
14:55	<COAMikeyB> We have like Gnome so farm.
14:55	I used to be a KDE person.
14:55	<rjune> sabyon I think is the GNOME equiv to kiosk tool
14:55	<COAMikeyB> So far that is, not so farm.
14:55	<cliebow> yeah..i would have bailed a year ago
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14:56	<cliebow> COAMikeyB, no offense intended 8~)
14:57	<COAMikeyB> I got lost there, so I am just too stupid to be insulted.
14:57	<cliebow> OGRA Foundation is a tax-exempt Kenyan..So HE's been sending me that 2 million bucks
14:57	<rjune> COAMikeyB: anyway, sabyon will help with locking down GNOME, because I'm guessing you want these for OPAC systems
14:57	you'll want to look at firefox too, not sure if that's easy to lock down or not
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14:58	<COAMikeyB> Yup.
14:58	<rjune> COAMikeyB: I think what you're asking about though is a program that runs periodically and kills everything owned by a user.
14:58	<COAMikeyB> Sweet
14:59	<rjune> I don't htink you need that though. I think both GDM and KDM allow for running a definable program when the session is terminated for any reason
14:59	if you could get the appropriate user name out of that, then you could probably work up what you need.
14:59	<COAMikeyB> Brain broken....chating LTSP here, installing 2003 server on VM ESX server, and doing tech support on phone.
14:59	<cliebow> COAMikeyB, might as well rip an ibook open in spare time
15:00	<rjune> LOL
15:00	if you like, I can add some other stuff too
15:00	<cliebow> COAMikeyB, you running ldap?
15:02	<COAMikeyB> Kind of.....
15:02	We are running Novell eDirectory and have their LDAP enabled.
15:02	<cliebow> up rjune's alley then
15:02	<rjune> :-)
15:02	eDir is nice.
15:03	<COAMikeyB> I am seriously in need to learning LDAP/AD stuff. I set it up for testing a print system and was so vocabularily impaired.
15:03	<rjune> IF you're using Novell, you want to use iPrint
15:03	<COAMikeyB> We are looking at moving from Novell to M$ for our primary network server soon.
15:03	<rjune> it's an IPP based print system
15:03	why?
15:03	<COAMikeyB> I would love to use iPrint.
15:03	<rjune> why would you do that?
15:04	<COAMikeyB> We are looking at consolidating services.
15:04	Right now we need to know how to run Novell and MS for primary services.
15:04	It also looks like MS could be a more affordable route for us, plus Mac integration is a lot smoother.
15:04	<rjune> COAMikeyB: I ran a 350 machine network by myself on Novell
15:05	good stuff
15:05	<cliebow> i left ad four years ago..
15:05	<COAMikeyB> rjune, some save me then.
15:05	<rjune> COAMikeyB: fly me out.
15:05	I'll come work over the long weekend
15:05	<cliebow> promise his wife lobster 8~)
15:06	<COAMikeyB> We have 4 of us in the CS dept here. One web guy, a network person (she does the file/email/etc servers and the physical network), my boss who is really our DB admin, and me, the systems admin.
15:06	<rjune> COAMikeyB: Macs use cups. an IPP print system
15:06	COAMikeyB: how many computers do you have total?
15:06	<COAMikeyB> If you listen to Maine radio you know we can get cheap lobster now.
15:06	<rjune> I managed a 350 system network by myself using novell and such.
15:06	<COAMikeyB> We have about 260 or so.
15:06	<rjune> and still managed to have plenty of free time
15:06	<COAMikeyB> We have NO central management system.
15:07	<rjune> You're doing everything by hand?
15:07	<cliebow> wire those motes together and build a supermachine
15:07	<COAMikeyB> rjune: Should we move this to a private chat or do you think others would like to hear this?
15:07	;)
15:07	<rjune> ask the others.
15:07	<cliebow> i am all in for this day...
15:07	<COAMikeyB> Others, should I discuss this in a private chat or are you enjoying hearing about this?
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15:08	<COAMikeyB> Yes, I do it all by hand. I have built some universal images to help with deployment at least.
15:08	<cliebow> as long as you use the pastebot for long pastes..i dont think anyone minds
15:08	<COAMikeyB> Let the record show that nobody objected ;)
15:08	<rjune> COAMikeyB: what novell tools do you have as part of your SLA?
15:08	* cliebow clieboe googles for sla
15:08	<rjune> You have eDir, I'm guesing you have iPrint. do you have Zenworks as well?
15:09	<cliebow> symbionese liberation army
15:09	<COAMikeyB> No zenworks
15:09	<rjune> cliebow: Service Level Agreement. it defines what tools they get to use
15:09	<COAMikeyB> No iPrint.
15:09	<cliebow> wee!
15:09	c ya all later!!
15:09	<COAMikeyB> I am not sure. I am not the Novell admin and am in the dark some there.
15:09	cya
15:09	drive safe...
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15:09	<rjune> You should get those discounted heavily. something like $0.25/user
15:09	<COAMikeyB> getting icy
15:09	<rjune> and iPrint is free
15:10	You're using OES/Linux though, yes?
15:10	<COAMikeyB> We are doing everything the hard way, but I don't know how to change that when I am not really in the Novell loop.
15:10	Zenworks was a lot more than that when I looked at it.
15:10	For one or two of our servers, the rest are M$
15:10	<rjune> COAMikeyB: eDir an and iPrint are nice. but Zen is what ties everything together. without it, the other stuff is just fluff
15:11	<COAMikeyB> I know nothing about Novell.
15:11	<rjune> iPrint is an ipp client for windows, you browse to the ipp server with your web browser, click and it installes the printer for you
15:11	eDir is nothing more then a directory. big whup
15:12	Zen gives you the policy tools to actually manage your network.
15:12	<COAMikeyB> For a short history, I was a Windows NT 4 admin back in the day, then left to teach, then became a Mac consultant, and am now back here (I was always a Linux geek too).
15:12	<rjune> If you're not using zen. then you have no reason to not look at ADS or OpenLDAP.
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15:12	<COAMikeyB> Yes, I wanted Zen a LOT, but price was prohibitive so far and the learning curve seemed steep, plus I was afraid to push is that way and find that it wasn't all that I wanted or as advertized.
15:12	<rjune> because I can't think of anything else that's has anything to offer.
15:13	When I was at the school, zen was I think a quarter/student
15:13	<COAMikeyB> I was planning on ADS and SMS. The Jackson Lab down the street just started using SMS so we have access to cheap/free consultation on that platform.
15:13	I ram SMS in 1997, but it has changed a LOT since then.
15:14	Let me find my quote.
15:14	<rjune> ADS doesn't integrate as well with linux, but Samba does include a tool that auto creates users for you
15:15	<COAMikeyB> I don't have the quote, I think I tossed it
15:16	BTW: I have to leave in 15 minutes, but would love to talk to you more about this later. Can you PM me contact info?
15:16	<rjune> I'm on IRC
15:16	rjune and rjune_
15:18	<COAMikeyB> Cool.
15:18	Thanks.
15:19	I have used Dameware at least for remote desktop, but that is it.
15:19	One reason it has worked this way this long is because I have a lot of workstudy students available to me.
15:19	This term I had 10 ranging from SuperStud Linux Guru to I don't know how to get to a webpage.
15:20	<rjune> heh
15:21	<COAMikeyB> I am trying to come up with a cost effective, labor effective big picture for how to manage my systems without overstepping my bounds (I am not the network admin, I don't have control over decisions there, and I have limited access)
15:22	I have never had to do things this way before. I have always been a one man show and am having a hard time with this setup.
15:23	I thought it would be easier because I didn't have to do everything, but it seems to impede my abilities a lot.
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15:28	<rjune> you have that
15:28	I'm amazed you have a tech dept of 4 people for 260 systems
15:30	<COAMikeyB> rjune: I have 260 systems but then about another 400 users with their own computers.
15:30	One person just does website stuff and has nothing to do with desktop or network support.
15:30	<rjune> you're admin for those?
15:31	<COAMikeyB> Yes and no.
15:31	<rjune> no, but you have to provide support
15:32	<COAMikeyB> Things are not as clear as the should be. Yes, I support them by not completely. I remove viruses/spyeare on the others, install a/v, and solve their network/file problems.
15:32	<rjune> heh
15:33	<COAMikeyB> If their hard drive dies, I tell those other 400 users (students and non-university owned computers) that the drive is dead and to go get it fixed.
15:33	<rjune> I know how that goes
15:33	I had that with teacher laptops
15:33	<COAMikeyB> Yup.
15:33	Are you at a K-12 school?
15:33	<rjune> I used to be
15:33	I'm assuming you have an inhouse windows update server
15:33	<COAMikeyB> Nope.
15:33	<rjune> do you have a mess of windows machines?
15:34	<COAMikeyB> Note, this is my second year here.......
15:34	Most are Windows machines.
15:34	<rjune> it's a good plan to have a local update server for OSes you use
15:34	windows update server will track what's been installed and where
15:35	<COAMikeyB> I looked at some, but it was money again.
15:35	<rjune> makes it VERY easy to roll out updates and to know what causes probolems
15:35	go to www.microsoft.com
15:35	<COAMikeyB> We work on a shoestring unfortunately.
15:35	<rjune> look up wsus
15:35	it's free, though you do need to run it on a windows server
15:36	<COAMikeyB> Cool. I have been out of the Windows Admin world for a while and am still getting up to date.
15:37	Thanks, I am going to get one running over break then. I have a beasty new VMware ESX server for inventory servers, image catalog, and whatever I need.
15:37	I have some extra Server installs I can use for it, plus 4 NIC's. I give this its own nic probably
15:38	You have helped me so much already. I think you greatly and will talk to you more about this later.
15:38	Next week we are doing our long term planning (Tuesday...one day for long term planning). We will be deciding on direction for MS/Novell and other things.
15:39	<rjune> There are open source inventory programs.
15:39	Zenworks does inventory as part of the package.
15:40	actually. you have consoleOne available right?
15:40	it may be just eDir that does it, but I think you need zenworks to register the computer fully
15:40	it's not great, but it's handy
15:41	<COAMikeyB> "We" as in the school has consoleONE, I don't
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15:41	<COAMikeyB> OK, I am 10 minutes late. I have to run but am so glad I got to talk to you about this. I will chat more later.
15:42	<rjune> k
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16:38	<ltsppbot> "alkisg" pasted "Hostname templates" (33 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/113
16:38	<alkisg> vagrantc, how's this? ^^^^ Ok or too much?
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16:55	<vagrantc> alkisg: it's maybe a bit much :)
16:55	alkisg: i was thinking of having a separate HOSTNAME_TEMPLATE sort of command or something
16:56	although, we get too complicated with this and the best thing would just be to set up DNS :)
16:56	<alkisg> vagrantc, HOSTNAME='fixedhostname' is also possible with the same template method...
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16:56	<alkisg> vagrantc, all I wanted was an automatic ltsp123... :)
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16:56	<alkisg> Based on the last IP bytes...
16:56	<vagrantc> that'd work for me too :)
16:57	<alkisg> vagrantc, ok, simple is better! :) I'll send you a simple one then...
16:57	<vagrantc> but i figured, since messing with this stuff, we may as well make the mac-address crowd happy ... :)
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16:58	<vagrantc> alkisg: what about simply HOSTNAME_COMMAND ?
16:58	<alkisg> The problem with the mac address generated hostnames, is that the ltsp server is not aware of them
16:58	vagrantc, aren't there any security concerns about passing a command to be executed on the client?
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16:58	<vagrantc> alkisg: sure there are some.
16:59	<alkisg> (I'm fine with them, my possible attackers are 12 year old students... :P)
16:59	* vagrantc knows some clever youngsters
16:59	<alkisg> vagrantc, so, providing only 2 functions (for mac/ip bits) and some HOSTNAME_COMMAND examples ?
17:01	* vagrantc suspects that any variable in lts.conf can be used to execute code
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17:02	<vagrantc> alkisg: i'm thinking something like HOSTNAME="ltsp$(ifconfig eth0 \| awk 'HWaddr/ {print $5}')" might actually just work.
17:03	<alkisg> well, then it's not a big deal... Even without providing functions to get ip/mac address, one can generate the hostname he wants in a one-liner
17:03	(ok, we wrote about the same thing)
17:03	* vagrantc tries it out
17:03	<vagrantc> although it's tricky for things that may need more than a one-liner
17:03	<Gadi_eeepc> uh: HOSTNAME="ltsp$(cat /sys/class/net/eth0/address)"
17:04	;)
17:04	<alkisg> vagrantc, in these cases, they can put a script in the chroot and call it from the HOSTNAME command...
17:04	<vagrantc> Gadi_eeepc: tht's assuming /sys is mounted
17:05	<alkisg> ...and eth0 is used
17:05	<Lns> Why not follow what most dhcp broadband companies do, such as "LTSP-Client-192-168-0-100" or some such?
17:05	<Gadi_eeepc> uh, both assume eth0
17:05	and sys is always mounted
17:05	:)
17:05	you assume to have awk :P
17:05	<alkisg> Well, I was thinking of getting the information from /tmp/netxxx.cfg (where ipconfig puts it)
17:06	<Gadi_eeepc> xxx = eth0
17:06	;)
17:06	<alkisg> Gadi_eeepc: not always... If a TC has 2 NICs, it's possible that it uses the second one, no?
17:06	<Gadi_eeepc> Lns: IP addrress may not be unique
17:06	<vagrantc> Gadi_eeepc: yes, well, i know awk is in the initramfs and eth0 is indeed a bad assumption
17:06	<Gadi_eeepc> alkisg: currently, a 2-nic client will fail
17:07	for other reasons
17:07	vagrantc: awk is not in ubuntu's initramfs by default
17:07	unless it is art of ltsp_nbd hooks
17:07	?
17:07	<vagrantc> we're not looking for a perfect solution, we're looking for a solution that works reasonably well in most situations
17:07	<Gadi_eeepc> well, I know sys is mounted
17:07	<Lns> Can't you pull the MAC from the connection the client makes to the server upon bootup?
17:07	<Gadi_eeepc> in the initramfs
17:07	<alkisg> Gadi_eeepc: awk (the busybox version) is in the ubuntu initramfs
17:07	<Gadi_eeepc> and I know that eth0 is currently a rquirement
17:08	<Lns> and eliminate having to execute things on the client.. ?
17:08	<Gadi_eeepc> Lns: mac address is a physicl property
17:08	only need to pull it from /sys
17:08	:)
17:09	<vagrantc> i guess stuff isn't evaluated
17:09	<Gadi_eeepc> I would also sed out the colons
17:09	nasty to have colons in a hostname
17:10	<vagrantc> yeah
17:10	maybe something like pre-defined templates, rather than an infinitely flexible templating system ...
17:10	i.e. trailing ip, full ip, full mac
17:11	<Gadi_eeepc> yeah, tho IP is inferior because it is non-unique :P
17:12	* alkisg still doesn't like mac-address-based hostnames, because the server won't know how to match MACs<=>IPs
17:12	<vagrantc> yeah, but it's good enough in many cases
17:12	alkisg: and some people just don't care that it matches
17:12	<alkisg> With IPs, hostnames just need to be declared statically in /etc/hosts...
17:13	<vagrantc> well, i can see the use-cases for all of the above
17:13	so i'm not very interested in arguing which is better.
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17:13	<alkisg> vagrantc, so HOSTNAME='text-$full_ip-more-text-$trailing_ip-more-text-$mac_address' ?
17:13	And that's it?
17:13	<Lns> Is the common goal here just to have some sort of automatic hostname generation when one in /etc/hosts doesn't already exist?
17:14	<vagrantc> Lns: less than that
17:14	the common goal is getting the default hostname to be something slightly more unique than "ltsp"
17:15	<Lns> vagrantc: aha
17:15	yes that would be nice =p
17:15	<vagrantc> which, if you use DNS, it's whatever DNS says
17:15	<Gadi_eeepc> alkisg: if you are going to match IPs to hostnames in /etc/hosts, you dont need any of this
17:15	:)
17:15	<vagrantc> it's just a stupid default for setups where there's no DNS resolution
17:15	<Gadi_eeepc> just use-host-decls
17:16	<alkisg> Gadi_eeepc: but the client says "ltsp" and the server says "ltsp192" for the same IP...
17:16	<Gadi_eeepc> right
17:16	<alkisg> Gadi_eeepc: talking about dhcp server = maybe a cheap router...
17:16	<Gadi_eeepc> but to fix that, you do name resolution
17:17	<alkisg> Gadi_eeepc: there's no nsupdate in the chroot
17:17	<Gadi_eeepc> how does a cheap router's dns supply filename?
17:17	<alkisg> To do dynamic dns updates...
17:17	Well, it is doable, with a little gpxe hacking ... :)
17:17	<Gadi_eeepc> dhcpd can do dymanic dns updates, I think
17:17	<alkisg> (or router hacking...)
17:18	Yeap, but routers don't have dhcpd.
17:18	<Gadi_eeepc> ah, right
17:18	<alkisg> If one uses dhcpd, then they don't need any of this automatic-generated-hostnames staff
17:18	<Gadi_eeepc> dhcp on router
17:19	so gpxe+ dhcp on router can hand out filename?
17:19	<alkisg> A patched gpxe, sure! :)
17:19	Or a little more expensive router (we use some cisco ones, but don't have full access over them)
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17:21	<Lns> Why not use current unix time as the autogenerated hostname..that should be unique =p
17:21	<Gadi_eeepc> Lns: not necesarily
17:21	:)
17:22	alkisg: you can always write a script to map the arp table to /etc/hosts :P
17:22	<alkisg> Gadi_eeepc: I'd really prefer putting nsupdate to the chroot! :D
17:23	<Gadi_eeepc> oh right - so what was the issue with doing that?
17:24	then you can make hostname whatever
17:24	as long as it is unique
17:24	<vagrantc> or bind9-host
17:25	<alkisg> Gadi_eeepc: no issue... Just would need that if a generated hostname can be used. And I only wanted a simple, one line addition, that would make a hostname=ltsp123 instead of ltsp... :)
17:25	*wouldn't
17:25	<ogra> warren, dash synatx written code runs fine in bash
17:25	<Gadi_eeepc> the only time I care about client hostname atm is on an rdesktop session, where you see where people are logged in from by hostname
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17:26	<ogra> warren, bash adds stuff on top of POSIX that makes its code incompatible, dash code will run in all POSIX compliant shells
17:26	<Gadi_eeepc> alkisg: I take it you never have two NAT'd subnets with the same IP scope
17:26	<alkisg> Gadi_eeepc: No, except for Virtualbox clients
17:27	Gadi_eeepc: but it would still be better than simple 'ltsp', wouldn't it? :P
17:27	<Gadi_eeepc> indeed
17:27	slightly
17:27	:)
17:27	but, for upstream code, it would nice to be absolutely unique
17:27	by default
17:27	imo
17:27	<alkisg> Gadi_eeepc: you know many people booting LTSP over NAT? !!!
17:27	<Gadi_eeepc> yes
17:27	<alkisg> Wow... didn't know that! :)
17:28	<Gadi_eeepc> most of my customers
17:28	:)
17:28	we separate booting from app server
17:28	app serve is often a NAT'd subnet away
17:28	*server
17:28	<Lns> at that point why not just use the full ip with dash separators? What's the reason for being completely unique across networks?
17:29	<Gadi_eeepc> say you have 2 192.168.0.0 subnets connecting to the same app server
17:29	you may have 2 workstations with IP 192.168.0.1
17:29	for example
17:29	so when you ask the server where Bob is logged in and it tells you client-192-168-0-1
17:30	it doesnt help
17:30	:)
17:30	<alkisg> Gadi_eeepc: yeap, but it could also say lab1-192.168.0.1 and lab2-192.168.0.1 :)
17:30	<Lns> Gadi_eeepc: right, but how do the duplicate IPs connect to the app server in the first place if they have an ip conflict, besides some crazy vpn/pf setup? (am i missing something?)
17:30	<alkisg> (too much trouble for dhcp, though... :))
17:31	<rjune_> !g
17:31	<ltspbot> rjune_: "g" is Gadi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
17:31	<rjune_> or rather Gadi_eeepc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
17:31	<ogra> !g_eee
17:31	<ltspbot> ogra: Error: "g_eee" is not a valid command.
17:31	<ogra> z
17:31	<rjune_> heh
17:31	<Gadi_eeepc> Lns: with NAT, there's no conflict
17:31	<rjune_> need to fix that
17:31	<Gadi_eeepc> hey, juney
17:31	:)
17:32	alkisg: now if you did that, that'd be cool
17:32	<alkisg> Gadi_eeepc: if you have a way to serve different lts.conf on different labs, it's easy..
17:32	<Gadi_eeepc> maybe: <serveer-hostname>-<client-ip>
17:32	<alkisg> Or different lts.conf entries
17:33	<Gadi_eeepc> right
17:33	<alkisg> (without hardcoding every mac address in dhcpd.conf, of course)
17:33	<Gadi_eeepc> sounds good to me
17:34	<ogra> why the full ip ?
17:34	if you know the server name you should know the subnet
17:34	* alkisg proposed to leave only the subnet... yeap, that one ^^^
17:35	* ogra would propose the last two bits of the IP
17:35	<vagrantc> we routinely have ltsp servers serve multiple subnets
17:35	<Gadi_eeepc> or the calculated host IP
17:35	:)
17:35	<ogra> pfft
17:35	<Gadi_eeepc> there is a rhyme and reason to subnetting
17:35	<alkisg> For mask=/24 => 1 byte, for mask=/16 => 2 bytes etc.
17:35	* ogra just thinks of the theme indications on the greeter
17:36	<Gadi_eeepc> alkisg: suppose it is not a full class C or class B
17:36	<ogra> you use haf the screenwith for the client name
17:36	<vagrantc> yeah
17:36	<rjune_> Gadi_eeepc: how's life?
17:36	<Gadi_eeepc> just logical NAND
17:36	:)
17:36	rjune_: ok
17:36	<alkisg> Gadi_eeepc: for mask=/17 => the rest bits. Client names from ltsp1 to ltsp12342
17:36	<rjune_> that bad, eh?
17:37	<Gadi_eeepc> hehe
17:37	well, kids are plugged in, atm
17:37	<rjune_> alkisg: You could probably use vvlans to do it
17:37	<Gadi_eeepc> didnt burn dinner
17:37	so, Im batting 1000
17:37	<ogra> you got rechargeable kids ?
17:37	<Lns> lol
17:37	<rjune_> LOL
17:37	<Gadi_eeepc> indeed
17:37	<ogra> what do they run on ? 220 or 100V ?
17:37	<rjune_> Gadi_eeepc: your night to cook?
17:37	<Gadi_eeepc> the shtus box recharges them
17:37	:)
17:38	<ogra> heh
17:38	<rjune_> they run on wii
17:38	shtus box?
17:38	<ogra> ohh, riiight
17:38	<Gadi_eeepc> the TV
17:38	hehe
17:38	<rjune_> ahh
17:38	<Gadi_eeepc> sorry
17:38	<rjune_> I'm a bad jew
17:38	<Gadi_eeepc> dropping into the vernacular
17:38	:)
17:38	shtus = nonsense
17:38	<ogra> even i got that
17:39	stuss = nonsense in northern german dilect
17:39	*dialect
17:39	<Gadi_eeepc> really?
17:39	<rjune_> my german is pretty bad
17:39	<Gadi_eeepc> huh
17:39	<ogra> yeah
17:39	<rjune_> well, not great.
17:39	<Lns> sounds german to me ;)
17:39	<Gadi_eeepc> I always thought it was derived from the Hebrew "shtuyot"
17:39	interesting...
17:39	<rjune_> yiddish is a mingling of hebrew and german I thought
17:39	<Gadi_eeepc> it is
17:40	sometimes it fools ya as to where the word is from
17:40	:)
17:40	<ogra> well, the german word is probably derived from the jewish term
17:40	<rjune_> true dat
17:40	<Gadi_eeepc> could be
17:40	<Lns> TV is baaad, mmkay?
17:40	<rjune_> Gadi_eeepc: thinking about hanging out my shingle again.
17:40	Lns: naa, tv is ok.
17:40	the wii plugs into the tv
17:40	<Gadi_eeepc> tv is great - helps avoid burnt dinners
17:40	<Lns> rjune: ok... most major television networks are baaad
17:40	<rjune_> Gadi_eeepc: doesn't your wife cook?
17:40	<Gadi_eeepc> shes not home as yet
17:41	late night at the hospital
17:41	<rjune_> Lns: ok
17:41	Gadi_eeepc: ah. that sucks
17:41	that's why you're here, the wife isn't home
17:41	<Lns> but CRT TVs are bad for entraining brain frequencies
17:41	<ogra> rjune, you know the guy who builds $100 whiteboards with a wiimote and projector ?
17:41	<rjune_> so it's true what they say, while the cats away, the mice will play
17:41	<Lns> ogra: i saw that =)
17:41	<rjune_> ogra: I know of him
17:42	* ogra saw a demo recently at a conference
17:42	<ogra> very impressive
17:42	<rjune_> cool
17:42	<Lns> that guy reminds me of that one asian student that was trying to get Harold (Harold & Kumar) to write a recommendation for him =p
17:42	<ogra> though i find the head tracking even more intresting
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17:42	<rjune_> the wiimote is very slick.
17:43	<ogra> yeah
17:43	<rjune_> it's a great application of the tech
17:44	<Gadi_eeepc> whiteboards?
17:44	wii?
17:44	what?
17:44	* Lns just can't wait for affordable holodecks
17:44	<rjune_> Gadi_eeepc: somebody took a wii-mote and added a projector and turned it into a smartboard
17:44	<ogra> Gadi_eeepc, http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~johnny/projects/wii/
17:44	<Lns> Gadi_eeepc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s5EvhHy7eQ
17:44	<ogra> see the second project
17:45	though the third really rules
17:46	<Lns> bye all, time for lunch for me =p
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17:47	<rjune_> ogra: what timezone are you in? you're on a LOT
17:47	<ogra> i'm in germany
17:47	so CEST
17:47	<rjune_> GMT + 3 or 4
17:47	ya?
17:47	<ogra> or CET now
17:47	UTC+1
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17:48	<rjune_> oh, it's only +1, I thought the timezones went further than that
17:48	<ogra> one hour right of london :)
17:48	as most of europe
17:49	<rjune_> I thought .eu had 2 or three timezones
17:49	<Gadi_eeepc> very cool
17:49	<rjune_> guess not.
17:49	<ogra> it does
17:49	<rjune_> mostly just one.
17:49	<ogra> portugal sits in its own iirc
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17:49	<ogra> and east of poland you have another one
17:49	<rjune_> ogra: it's funny, europeans have no concept of how big .us and .ca are, while us americans have no clue how big .eu isn't
17:50	<ogra> how small you mean :)
17:50	<rjune_> potato, potato
17:51	I've heard of folks coming from europe thinking they were going to ride their bike from Indiana to California
17:51	just no grasp of size.
17:51	<ogra> haha
17:51	well, you only get it if you really travel
17:51	<rjune_> yeah
17:51	that's true.
17:51	I was thinking all of europe was about the size of the us
17:51	<ogra> last BTS we drove north from boston
17:51	<rjune_> yup
17:51	took what, 3 hours or so
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17:52	<ogra> i didnt relly get that you should actually find a place to sleep inbetween
17:52	2x4-5h
17:52	<rjune_> I seem to remember it being shorter when I did it
17:53	<johnny> something to keep in mind ..
17:53	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Multiseat
17:53	<ogra> well, sticking to the speedlimits :)
17:53	johnny, wasnt that abandoned upstream ages ago ?
17:53	i remember we had it until dapper
17:53	<rjune_> speed limits are for wimps
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17:54	<johnny> ogra, read it..
17:55	<ogra> johnny, yeah, ts a reinvention of the HP multiseat project
17:55	based on new tech
17:55	<Gadi_eeepc> yeah - and there are other 5-in-1 solutions like that Ive seen
17:55	<johnny> we should make sure it either assists ltsp.. or doesn't get in the way
17:55	<ogra> johnny, its totally different
17:56	<johnny> getting stuff to make consolekit do the right thing would be nice..
17:56	<ogra> its not a terminal server at all ... you need mouse,kbd and display plugged in to the machine directly
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17:56	<ogra> johnny, dbus over ssh
17:56	<rjune_> johnny: it's similar to ltsp, but not really the same
17:56	<ogra> that all we need
17:56	*thats
17:57	<johnny> hmm.. how are we gonna make the dbus over ssh work securely..
17:57	<rjune_> ogra: any idea on the turn around hearing back from canonical?
17:57	<ogra> johnny, attach it to the ldm socket
17:57	rjune, nope
17:57	rjune, i would assume before UDS (dec 9th) though
17:58	<rjune_> UDS?
17:58	<ogra> but half the company is trying to take thier vacation before the year ends so we only run on half power atm
17:58	rjune, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSJaunty
17:59	<rjune_> Ahh
17:59	cool.
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18:01	<rjune_> ogra: I'll have to send you some wine to share at UDS
18:01	<ogra> why dont you come with it ? :)
18:02	<rjune_> not unless I get hired.
18:02	I've got no invitation
18:03	plus with the company I work at currently looking to be out of business by years end, I need to not spend money needlessly.
18:03	<Ahmuck> rjune sorry to hear that
18:03	<rjune_> shit happens.
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18:05	<Gadi_eeepc> ogra: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/dbus/2007-February/007172.html
18:05	http://gabriel.sourceforge.net/
18:05	do you know of this?
18:06	maybe this guy needs beer and lobster
18:06	<rjune_> heh
18:07	<ogra> Gadi_eeepc, perfect !
18:07	<rjune_> ogra: you drink honey wine?
18:07	<ogra> met you mean ?
18:07	<rjune_> mead
18:07	yes.
18:07	* ogra is more in the dark spanish red ones but wont say no to met :)
18:07	<rjune_> met ist Deustch?
18:08	<ogra> no, daenish i think ... or some other kind of viking
18:08	we only stole it :)
18:08	<rjune_> Ich habe 30L met.
18:08	I meant the word, not the drink
18:08	<Gadi_eeepc> ok - gotta eat...
18:08	g'night all
18:08	<rjune_> Gadi_eeepc: happy eating
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18:09	<stgraber> oh, germans drink something else than lager ? :)
18:09	<rjune_> ja
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18:09	<rjune_> ogra: Mochten Sie Bock?
18:10	<ogra> you mean if i like bock beer ?
18:10	<rjune_> stgraber: germans drink riesling
18:10	I hope that's what I asked. :-)
18:10	my german is rusty.
18:10	<ogra> stgraber, i'm rioja addict :)
18:11	tinto rules :)
18:11	<stgraber> rjune_: speaking to ogra you should have used möchtest du instead of mochten sie, but that's detail :)
18:11	<rjune_> Right now I have a mess of mead and some irish stout
18:11	stgraber: mochtest du assumes a familiarity I'm not sure we have.
18:11	<ogra> we do :)
18:11	<rjune_> plus I don't know how to do umlaut on my pc
18:12	<ogra> oe
18:12	ue
18:12	ae
18:12	<stgraber> rjune_: usually I assume that I do with anyone I'm speaking to on IRC or a ML, at least that's what I do in french.
18:12	<rjune_> ss == essesset
18:12	<stgraber> ß
18:12	easy with the swiss-french keyboard :)
18:12	<ogra> thats the common way of translating umplauts into non utf8
18:12	<rjune_> yeah, I should learn how to do those on my keyboard
18:12	<ogra> well, ss works for ß
18:12	<rjune_> stgraber: showoff. :-)
18:12	<ogra> heh
18:12	<rjune_> I bet you can do all the french ones too
18:13	<ogra> he moved to canada just to show off with his swiss keyboard :)
18:13	* ogra finally gets it
18:13	<stgraber> :)
18:13	<rjune_> ogra: I have some irish stout and 5g (about 19L) of eurobock brewing
18:13	<stgraber> well, I'm still not used to the qwerty (us, us int or one of the three canadian ones), qwertz is just so much better :)
18:14	<rjune_> the canuckistani I work with swears by dvorak
18:14	<ogra> we have some traditional beer, the first beer of spring here ... called maibock (may bock for you)
18:14	thats a bockbeer i love
18:14	<rjune_> yeah, My brother is fond of dopplebock
18:15	when I get the final 2g show mead racked, I have to start another 5g batch of mead
18:15	<ogra> there is also "federweisser" which is half way done wine with a hell lot of alcohol
18:15	you cant buy it in closed bottles because they explode :)
18:16	<rjune_> heh
18:16	<ogra> its very tasty and seasonal
18:16	<rjune_> cool
18:17	my budy has 8 beehives, he gave me 5gallons of honey
18:17	buddy
18:17	<ogra> sweet
18:17	i want bees
18:18	* ogra wonders if teher is any translation of Feuerzangenbowle
18:18	<rjune_> Firesomethingbowl
18:18	ya?
18:18	<ogra> hmm, dict says "red wine punch [containing rum which has been set alight]"
18:18	<rjune_> it's a specific drink
18:18	<ogra> but that doesnt really cut it :)
18:18	yeah
18:19	<rjune_> heh
18:19	<ogra> its something for the winter
18:19	and the most dangerous drink i know
18:19	<rjune_> icewine is supposed to be really good too
18:20	<ogra> Feuerzangenbowle is mulled wine, you have a special construction with a sugar cone on it hanging above the hot wine
18:20	then you pour one or two bottles of the strongest rum you can buy over it and set it on fire
18:20	<rjune_> this sounsd like a showoff drink
18:21	<ogra> its ready if the sugar is burned down
18:21	you dont taste the alc. at all
18:21	<rjune_> how much has burned off?
18:21	<ogra> its like very sweet hot tea
18:22	after two cups even the hardest drinkers i have met n my life lied lalling on the ground
18:22	<rjune_> Google Inc., Crittenden Campus, 1400 Crittenden Lane, Mountain View, CA 94043 <-- that the address to mail to?
18:23	<ogra> http://www.jdvhotels.com/hotels/wild_palms
18:23	rather the hotel
18:25	<rjune_> 'k
18:25	you know your room number?
18:26	time to eat then nap
18:28	<ogra> nope
18:28	dont know it yet
18:32	<stgraber> ogra: looks like I have the same roomie that I had in Boston :)
18:32	(just got Jorge's email)
18:32	<ogra> heh
18:33	<stgraber> you remember, he was the only guy who was younger than me at UDS-Boston (or so I heard) :)
18:33	<ogra> yeah
18:34	<stgraber> it's a bit weird as I'd have expected to get Nicolas as roomie especially as he asked me if it was ok but well ... it'll force me to speak english, can't be bad
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18:49	<Leolo_3> question : LTSP 4.2, how do I prevent Xorg from switching the console back to tty1 when it exits
18:50	that is, say you are in X, use ctrl-alt-F2 to switch to another virtual screen. if Xorg was then to exit (say it times out), I don't want it move the virtual screen back to it
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18:56	<Leolo_3> -novtswitch does what I want
18:56	... so far
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18:59	<Leolo_3> yep. this is it
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20:45	<Ahmuck> i'm setting up a raided drive with multiple partitions. i need /, /home, and /usr/local and swap. any other recomendations?
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20:54	<Leolo_3> ahmuck : do not put swap as its own partition
20:54	use a swap file in /
20:54	if you want to go all out : /var and /tmp
20:57	<Ahmuck> Leolo_3: why not swap in it's own primary partition?
20:58	are there minimum partitions sizes one should consider for each partition type?
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21:00	<Ahmuck> at the end of the installation i get a question about setting up a private encrypted directory. is this just for the sudo or for everybody?
21:00	<Leolo_3> wait, are you going to have swap spread over several drives? or one RAID partition with swap? if the latter, it's OK
21:00	for minimum sizes : depends a LOT on your applications
21:00	<Ahmuck> two raid partitions over two drives acting as one
21:00	one raid partition as swap
21:01	does partition size depend upon size of user base?
21:02	<Leolo_3> raid1?
21:02	<Ahmuck> yes
21:02	terrabyte drive
21:02	<Leolo_3> ...!
21:03	ok, why are you putting different bits on different partitions?
21:03	I used to have / /var /usr/local /home but it just became an annoying administrative overhead
21:03	so now i just use /
21:04	<Ahmuck> by doing /, /home /usr/local i can do a fresh install of the next upgrade without having to worry about data loss in those areas
21:04	that and /var/www
21:05	<Leolo_3> make 2 partitions / and /home (say). symlink /usr/local to /home/local and /var/www to /home/www
21:05	you've just simplified your life a whole lot
21:06	ahmuck : what distro are you using? I've had huge successes doing upgrades in the redhat flavours
21:06	<Ahmuck> ubuntu
21:06	<Leolo_3> like RH9 -> FC3 -> FC5 w/ no real hitch
21:06	<Ahmuck> i hate RPM
21:06	real bad
21:06	i used to be redhat/fedora
21:06	<Leolo_3> have you ever used yum?
21:07	<Ahmuck> some
21:07	<Leolo_3> (not that I want you to use redhat, just curious if it is the packages or the app you hate)
21:07	what's to hate?
21:07	<Ahmuck> dependacies
21:08	<Leolo_3> to many dependencies?
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21:09	<elwarreno> have any of you guys played with ncomputing on linux?
21:11	<Ahmuck> http://www.ncomputing.com/Default.aspx - that?
21:12	<elwarreno> yessir
21:12	<Ahmuck> looks like commercial ltsp
21:13	<elwarreno> nah
21:13	<Ahmuck> http://www.ncomputing.com/try-it-now.aspx
21:13	elwarreno: no?
21:13	<elwarreno> its not a thin client technology like ltsp
21:14	they sell hardware devices with a special protocol
21:14	that plug into desktop PCs
21:15	<Ahmuck> have you seen it?
21:15	<Leolo_3> "special protocol" ?
21:15	<elwarreno> yeah
21:15	<Ahmuck> actually seen it and see the "special protocol"
21:15	not just some ltsp reborn?
21:15	is it linux?
21:15	<elwarreno> no, its not linux based at all
21:16	they have some firmware on their devices
21:16	<Ahmuck> to my knowledge there is bsd, linux, windows, mac os, and beos
21:16	outside of that, well, os400
21:16	firmware, as in bios firmware? something like netboot?
21:17	the server os is not linux?
21:17	<Leolo_3> http://www.ncomputing.com/Technology.aspx talks about virtualisation
21:17	I put "special protocol" in quotes because I'll bet you they are using VNC at some point
21:17	like vmware does
21:17	<brendan0powers> its not rally virtualization
21:18	they have some cheap thin client like devices, with their own firmware(probably running linux underneath?) that uses a custom protocol to talk to the server
21:18	<Ahmuck> bewolf cluster ltsp like?
21:19	<brendan0powers> they concentrace on connecting small numbers of clients to desktop computer via the network or a PCI card
21:20	<Ahmuck> ah, i understand it
21:21	<Leolo_3> what do they/you mean by desktop computer?
21:21	they're all PCs, right?
21:21	<elwarreno> but they must do something special to get their streaming video so good?
21:21	<Ahmuck> the primary one is. it's virutalization. yes, like vnc with each user with thier own session
21:22	<elwarreno> Leolo_3: The idea is you can take a consumer PC (under 1000 dollars) and turn it into 5 computers....
21:22	by plugging these devices into it
21:22	<Ahmuck> i was in ubuntu-server today, and they were talking about using multiple keyboards, mouse, monitor all connected to the same pc. this was possible at one time with linux
21:23	essentially the same idea. there is a move to do this in the linux community, to get back to multiple desktops on the same pc, hubs?
21:23	<brendan0powers> yea, last I checked, that was fairly difficult to do
21:24	<Leolo_3> ... looking for a price
21:25	<elwarreno> they come out to be about $70 per device
21:25	<Ahmuck> brendan0powers: they are working on getting it back into linux
21:25	<brendan0powers> you can get the pci 5 pack on cdw for 399
21:25	<Leolo_3> elwarreno : yow!
21:25	<elwarreno> which is why it would be nice if they ran in linux
21:25	because they are cheap!
21:26	<Ahmuck> is the "protocal" tied to windows?
21:26	<Leolo_3> no, but the server software probably is
21:27	but the L230 is 320 CAD...
21:27	<Ahmuck> this would work well for some of the things i'm doing if the performance didn't suffer, but i don't see how a consumer windows computer could stand up to having 8-10 users on it at the same time using multimedia applications
21:27	<Leolo_3> a mobo+CPU+RAM+box would probably be less then that
21:27	<Ahmuck> over time windows just gets crufty slow
21:27	<Leolo_3> computers these days are helluva powerful
21:27	<Ahmuck> Leolo_3: 80.00 for an atom mobo, cpu, and mem
21:27	then you have to buy the case as well
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21:28	<Leolo_3> i was telling my step daughter about my first computer, 1mb RAM, 1gb HDD. she was freaked "my mp3 player has more then that!"
21:28	especially, the price I paid. ~6000 CAD
21:28	<Ahmuck> heh, i recall 100-250 mb hard drives
21:29	shows his age L(
21:29	:(
21:29	anyhow, so in the marketplace, could this be a deal breaker when trying to get linux in schools?
21:30	as a large portion of the apps are on the windows side?
21:30	<Leolo_3> funny... schools around here use windows, teach firefox, OOo and the gimp
21:30	<Ahmuck> really?!
21:30	<Leolo_3> yeah
21:31	<Ahmuck> then why stick with windows. with windows you need spyware blocker, anti-virus, constant updates, etc etc.
21:31	<Leolo_3> word is helluva expensive. and the admin overhead of having enough licences, etc
21:31	ahmuck : no clue
21:31	<elwarreno> although schools get pretty good pricing on licensing from microsoft
21:32	<Leolo_3> however, i helped one of my clients replace >100 wyse terminals with ltsp. the other option they looked into was windows terminals
21:33	<Ahmuck> [21:02] <Ahmuck> that and /var/www
21:33	[21:03] <Leolo_3> make 2 partitions / and /home (say). symlink /usr/local to /home/local and /var/www to /home/www
21:33	<elwarreno> schools can get CALs and terminal service licenses for 43 bucks
21:33	<Ahmuck> back to my previous questions, not to break the conversation, if i have /usr/local on the / partitions and need to do a re-install, i loose /usr/local even with a symlink? no?
21:33	<Leolo_3> 100 CAD for atom mobo... no ram
21:34	<Ahmuck> newegg?
21:34	<Leolo_3> http://www.directdial.com/BOXD945GCLF.html
21:34	ahmuck : if /usr/local is a symlink into /home (which is its own partition) then you shouldn't loose it
21:34	not unless you loose /home too
21:34	<Ahmuck> that's still 30.00 more that the other solutions, and if your talking about 250 desktops, that 30x250 desktops
21:34	<Leolo_3> you do have to rebuild that symlink after the install though
21:34	<Ahmuck> ah, ok
21:35	now i understand
21:35	yes, that does make things simple
21:35	thx
21:35	<Leolo_3> ahmuck : the 70 $ per user deal was for the PCI one, which means you have to have the stations <10 meters from the main PC
21:36	10 meters as the wire runs, not line of sight
21:36	<Ahmuck> i've seen many installations that were "cirucular"
21:36	s/circular
21:36	7 around one table
21:37	<Leolo_3> ahmuck : having many many partitions, you might end up with no space on a given partition, but plenty on other. so you shuffle stuff with symlinks anyway
21:37	however, with terrabyte drives... i don't know if you'll ever have the problem
21:38	<Ahmuck> / partitions size prolly wouldn't exceed a normal user
21:38	as it's fairly constant. only /var and /tmp would expand, correct?
21:38	<Leolo_3> so, again, what are your applications?
21:39	<Ahmuck> scribus, hugin, gimp, inkscape, pap, music/movie apps, etc. wine (artrage, gridwars, world of goo, etc.)
21:40	<Leolo_3> mysql? web apps?
21:40	(you mentioned /var/www...)
21:40	also, if you have a lot of ram, you don't want a large swap file
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21:44	<Ahmuck> 4G ram
21:44	hersonls has joined #ltsp
21:44	<Ahmuck> 2G swap file
21:45	<Leolo_3> imho, don't bother with 512mb swap
21:45	<Ahmuck> i mentioned /var/www because i'd like to teach some web programming
21:45	<Leolo_3> >512mb that is
21:45	<Ahmuck> er, html/css
21:45	not web programming
21:45	<Leolo_3> imho, /var/www should be in /home anyway
21:45	<Ahmuck> is there a way to do .www for each user?
21:46	<Leolo_3> easily
21:46	<Ahmuck> or www for each user and do local loading?
21:46	<Leolo_3> http://host/~user/
21:46	<Ahmuck> ah, k
21:46	<Leolo_3> that'll go to /home/user/public_html/ in the default apache config
21:46	'public_html' is easily changed
21:46	<Ahmuck> one of my concerns if if somebody is "following" my work that things are very "default" so there not cussing me while i'm down under
21:47	<Leolo_3> set up a wiki and document all your customising
21:48	<Ahmuck> u mentioned /home/local. does that work the same way? can the user install into /home/local and use it as a user only app install?
21:48	<Leolo_3> no
21:48	if you want the user to install apps, they'll need either sudo access
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21:49	<Leolo_3> or tell them to install into ~/bin
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21:49	<Ahmuck> frown ... i recall on DG Unix we were able to install apps locally
21:49	<Leolo_3> 185 for atom mobo + ram + case on newegg
21:49	<Ahmuck> per user
21:50	that's 100.00 more or 25,000 more in a 250 seat school
21:50	<Leolo_3> then the PCI option
21:51	<Ahmuck> that's playground equipment in a 390 student school district
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21:52	<Leolo_3> but -35 CAD each for the ethernet version
21:53	there is a huge advantage to ltsp, though : you can customise it all over
21:53	<Ahmuck> 50 x 250 == 12500
21:53	customize it ?
21:53	ah, per user account
21:54	<Leolo_3> add new stuff to /etc/screen.d/, say
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21:56	* Ahmuck doesn't know what /etc/screen does right now
21:56	* Ahmuck starts looking
21:56	<Ahmuck> is there a customization manual?
21:57	<johnny> there is no /etc/screen.d
21:57	there is one in /usr/share/ldm tho
21:57	it's just some shell scripts
21:59	<Ahmuck> ??, now i'm confused
22:00	<johnny> he's thinking it should exist , to allow local customization
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22:01	<Leolo_3> in 4.2, SCREEN_01="startx" ends up running /etc/screen.d/startx, which is a shell script that does some clever stuff, then starts Xorg
22:01	SCREEN_01="telnet" runs /etc/screen.d/telnet, etc
22:02	is 5 very different?
22:02	<johnny> it's in /usr/share/ldm/screen.d now
22:02	or maybe /usr/share/ltsp..
22:02	just not /etc
22:02	<Leolo_3> ah
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22:04	<Ahmuck> why should i ltsp-build-client? hwo often?
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22:09	<Ahmuck> i've been fighting ltsp installation and configuration for two weeks. i'm exhausted, so i'd better get some sleep
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22:15	<Ahmuck> ah, one last question. at the end of the installation in 8.10 it asks if you want to encrypt your private home directory. does this encrypt every home directory?
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22:29	<johnny> Ahmuck, doubtful.. but possible..
22:29	<warren> Ahmuck: have you tried k12linux?
22:29	Ahmuck: you are a moron if you can't get k12linux running
22:30	tarbo has quit IRC
22:30	<warren> Ahmuck: boot to installed server in 15-20 minutes, maybe another 5 to setup the network afterward
22:30	tarbo has joined #ltsp
22:30	<Ahmuck> why would i want to test if i was a moron?
22:31	ltsp server/client was easy enough to get running. it's the special configurations i've been trying
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22:31	<Ahmuck> fat clients, mixed client networks, mac/pc for clients, etc.
22:31	<warren> oh
22:31	you didn't mention that part
22:31	Ahmuck: oh, and I should patent this moron test...
22:32	<Ahmuck> :p
22:32	anywho, now you have my curosity peaked. i'll have to check it out.
22:33	<warren> k12linux.org
22:33	download that 1GB image
22:33	you can either burn to a DVD (slow) or install liveusb (faster)
22:33	<Ahmuck> one of the best child filters i've found sofar is firefox extension glubble
22:33	<warren> we don't have fat client out of the box yet, but hybrid works out of the box.
22:34	mac, you mean ppc?
22:34	<Ahmuck> yes, g3
22:34	<warren> hmm
22:34	I should obtain a G3 in order to make that work
22:34	<Ahmuck> install on g3, build binaries, transfer to server, reboot to network
22:34	<warren> nod
22:34	wouldn't be hard to make it work, I just need the hardware to do it
22:34	our configs already handle ppc netbot
22:34	<Ahmuck> unless somebody has already contributed g3 binaires for my distro
22:35	<warren> netboot
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22:40	* warren orders a G3 iMac
22:40	<rjune_> warren: Howdy
22:41	<warren> hmm, i'm not willing to pay money for a G3 iMac
22:41	i'll see if anybody at the office has one
22:41	<rjune_> heh
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22:43	<rjune_> so with all that this earlier, still want to split libbash and use the bash command interpreter?
22:47	tarbo has quit IRC
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22:48	<warren> rjune: the need to do it is highly theoretical at this point
22:48	so not realy
22:48	really
22:50	* Ahmuck waves at rjune
22:50	<rjune_> Howdy Ahmuck
22:50	<warren> awww, somebody already wrote a moron detector
22:51	<rjune_> ?
22:51	<warren> http://www.neopets.com/
22:51	<rjune_> LOLO
22:51	<Ahmuck> has anybody simulated ltsp on virutal box?
22:51	<johnny> hi
22:51	Ahmuck, sure..
22:52	warren, hello
22:52	<warren> Ahmuck: yes
22:52	Ahmuck: nothing special
22:52	Ahmuck: as always, the networking setup is the most complicated
22:52	oh wait
22:52	I've never used virtualbox
22:53	rjune_: I've seen grown adults click for hours mindlessly on neopets.com
22:53	tarbo has quit IRC
22:53	<rjune_> some people are special
22:53	<Ahmuck> yes, it's the networking that's tripping me up
22:53	tarbo has joined #ltsp
22:53	<Ahmuck> and googles been no help
22:54	* Leolo_3 was ltsp working in vmware
22:54	<warren> I didn't care to ask them what exactly they were doing, but it looked like a boring repetitive task to get points or cash or something, that could be automated with a bot.
22:54	<Ahmuck> sounds like the game of diablo
22:54	* warren ruined a few games by programming bots during middle school.
22:55	<warren> I sold two binary copies of my MajorMUD bot for $1,000 per license.
22:55	about a year later, somebody else came out with a polished MajorMUD interface + bot and sold it for $29.99 online
22:55	ruined my business
22:55	<rjune_> heh
22:56	welcome to the world of business
22:56	<Ahmuck> i bet they made more cashola
22:57	<warren> doubtful, their client had a laughable registration code
22:57	somebody else wrote a key generator
22:58	and the key generator worked for several years of new versions
22:58	<rjune_> Earlier when I asked you if rh was hiring you seemed to be asking some questions related to the my usefulness, anything else you wanted to know?
22:58	<warren> rjune_: I don't control any hiring, and my department doesn't seem to be hiring, so I can't have any influence.
22:58	<Ahmuck> warren: r u with rh?
22:59	<warren> rjune_: OTOH if you find an opening in another part of the company and list me as referrer, I could write a recommendation letter.
22:59	<rjune_> Ahmuck: he is warren tagomi of fedora extras fame
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22:59	<Ahmuck> ah
22:59	<warren> (well, I don't know you that well yet)
22:59	<rjune_> hence the reason you were asking questions relating to my usefulness. :-)
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22:59	<warren> Ahmuck: s/with/owned by/
23:00	<rjune_> warren: you are required to work 72 hours / week too?
23:00	<warren> mispelling my name does not reflect well
23:00	=P
23:00	rjune_: but seriously, I have no clue if we're hiring, and competition has never been more fierce
23:01	<rjune_> togami, not tagomi
23:01	that's no surprise
23:01	google just dropped a whole mess of people
23:01	<Ahmuck> ow
23:01	<rjune_> there are some openings
23:02	<Ahmuck> well, i'm sleepy. it's 23:00, so nite. thx from those who gave me a hand
23:02	<rjune_> and it's no blood from me
23:02	I'm looking to be out on the street soon anyway
23:02	<Ahmuck> :(
23:02	<warren> google dropped people?
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23:04	<rjune_> warren: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2008-11-25-026-35-NW-BZ
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23:05	<warren> I heard that they stopped serving free dinner.
23:06	<Ahmuck> looks like sun and hp has also
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