IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 5 January 2013 (all times are UTC)
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| 13:04 | <ltspuser_21> hi
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| 13:05 | can anyone tell me how to use ltsp gui manager
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| 16:14 | <alkisg> So... wrt to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/1093144
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| 16:14 | At that point, the fat client "session" command has indeed terminated:
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| 16:15 | user 1784 0.1 0.0 5888 1752 tty7 S 18:05 0:00 su - user -c LTSP_CLIENT_MAC=00:E0:4C:6D:4D:81 LTSP_FATCLIENT=True LTSP_CLIENT=10.160.67.12 LTSP_CLIENT_HOSTNAME=ltsp12 LTSP_FATCLIENT=True
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| 16:15 | LC_ALL=el_GR.UTF-8 LANGUAGE=el_GR.UTF-8 LANG=el_GR.UTF-8 DISPLAY=:7 ICEAUTHORITY=/var/run/ldm-xauth-LCd6b4U1E/ICEauthority XAUTHORITY=/var/run/ldm-xauth-LCd6b4U1E/Xauthority /etc/X11/Xsession "gnome-session --session=gnome-fallback"
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| 16:15 | ...along with another 14 of the user processes
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| 16:15 | But, about 32 user processes are still running at the point where X99-zlocalapps-cleanup gets to run
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| 16:16 | I don't think we can "fix" those 32 processes to exit properly with the session, they're too many
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| 16:19 | <knipwim> were those processes originally forked from the session?
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| 16:19 | <alkisg> knipwim: define "fork"...
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| 16:20 | I think the "session" is losely defined as processes that share a common environment variable
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| 16:20 | For xsession, that's "DISPLAY", where for a dbus session, that's DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS
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| 16:20 | I don't think it matters where these processes got spawned from
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| 16:21 | And it's up to the processes to properly exit when their session exits
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| 16:21 | <knipwim> ok, maybe i'm not sure what the problem exactly is, but when i do a ps fax from a local-apps xterm
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| 16:21 | i see all these processes "forked" from the screen_session
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| 16:22 | <alkisg> ps fax: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1500044/
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| 16:22 | The starting "su" session command has exited at that point though
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| 16:23 | <knipwim> is it about closing some of the toplevel process?
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| 16:23 | or the processes beneath screen_session
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| 16:23 | <alkisg> knipwim: that `ps fax` above is while X99-zlocalapps-cleanup runs
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| 16:23 | At that point we e.g. try to fusermount -uqz ${LDM_HOME}
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| 16:24 | But the gvfs process is still using ~/.gvfs at that point, so it's an unclean unmount
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| 16:25 | user 1916 0.0 0.1 33736 2588 ? Sl 18:06 0:00 /usr/lib/gvfs//gvfs-fuse-daemon -f /home/user/.gvfs
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| 16:25 | <knipwim> can't we kill the gvfs process before it tries a fusermount?
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| 16:26 | <alkisg> Yes, but we shouldn't have to do that on a per process/per case basis
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| 16:26 | We want to run the cleanup code after all the user processes die, not forcefully kill them because we're running at the wrong time
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| 16:29 | <alkisg> Hmmm both on an ltsp client, and on a non-ltsp system, I see that some of the user processes have PPID=gnome-session, and others have PPID=1
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| 16:29 | The ones with PPID=gnome-session do exit properly...
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| 16:30 | So maybe the others get spawned by some other, "non proper" means...
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| 16:30 | <alkisg> Alt+F2, gnome-calculator, ps -ef ==> PPID=1
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| 16:32 | <knipwim> would that be a bug for gnome-calculator then?
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| 16:32 | <alkisg> Could be for gnome-panel, that it starts child processes without the proper parent pid
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| 16:33 | Now, comparing the environment of a process "a" with PPID=1, and a process "b", with PPID=gnome-session:
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| 16:33 | ...DESKTOP_AUTOSTART_ID=10acadfd98702f2ed0135739389713514100000017630010 exists only in "b",
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| 16:33 | and in a: DISPLAY=:0.0, while in b: DISPLAY=:0
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| 16:35 | So the environment looks fine...
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| 16:35 | <knipwim> http://osdir.com/ml/linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss/2007-10/msg00037.html
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| 16:35 | is that related ?
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| 16:36 | <alkisg> It's talking about the same thing, yeah... it's true that many would not consider it a bug
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| 16:37 | In any case, I think we shouldn't try to solve it at the gnome level, but at the ltsp level
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| 16:37 | I.e. run our cleanup later
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| 16:46 | newbie is now known as Guest85127 | |
| 16:48 | <Guest85127> hello .. help me pls .. is there any complete how to install firefox and gimp as localapps
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| 16:55 | <knipwim> Guest85127: basically enter the client chroot, install the apps and restart the client
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| 16:55 | what distro?
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| 16:56 | <Guest85127> ubuntu 12.04 pls
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| 16:56 | iam newbie
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| 16:57 | <knipwim> to make the client image, did you do a ltsp-build-client?
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| 16:57 | (i'm not experienced with ubuntu)
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| 16:59 | which client image are you using? in /opt/ltsp/images
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| 17:02 | <Guest85127> yes i do ltsp-build-client client image at /opt/ltsp/i386
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| 17:04 | <knipwim> can you do a ltsp-chroot --arch=i386 -m
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| 17:04 | not on a running client
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| 17:05 | preferably
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| 17:05 | you might get unexpected unmount errors when unmounting
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| 17:06 | <Guest85127> (sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 mount -t proc proc /proc) i think i use this command to mount on my ltsp
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| 17:06 | <knipwim> don't you have ltsp-chroot?
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| 17:06 | (sudo ltsp-chroot --help)
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| 17:07 | <Guest85127> yes i can do that on my server
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| 17:08 | <knipwim> you can use the ltsp-chroot to chroot into ltsp environments
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| 17:08 | <Guest85127> iam in root now ..
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| 17:08 | <knipwim> http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Ltsp-chroot
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| 17:09 | can you install the packages?
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| 17:10 | <Guest85127> i dont think so
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| 17:10 | <knipwim> what makes you say that
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| 17:12 | <Guest85127> thanks knipwim i think i got the idea :)
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| 17:13 | thank you very much
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| 17:13 | <alkisg> http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Ltsp-chroot, with capital L? why so?
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| 17:14 | <knipwim> hmm, i doubt it
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| 17:14 | but we'll see
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| 17:14 | alkisg: it's a mediawiki thing
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| 17:14 | can't be helped
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| 17:15 | <alkisg> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Template:Lowercase
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| 17:15 | (don't know if it's worth it, just googled it...)
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| 17:17 | <knipwim> cool
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| 17:29 | http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Ltsp-chroot
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| 17:29 | now the rest
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| 17:49 | <markit> hi alkisg, I've helped a school tecnician to make ltsp work fine, they were desperate since the "local guru" was not able to set it properly since some months
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| 17:49 | alkisg: the merit is yours :)
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| 17:50 | <knipwim> good work markit
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| 17:50 | <alkisg> Mine? Nah, plainly you, good work :)
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| 17:51 | <markit> alkisg: your knowledge (properly stored in a ton of notes) has gone through my ssh typing ;P
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| 17:52 | * alkisg would suggest that markit moves his ton of notes to the ltsp wiki! | |
| 17:53 | <markit> alkisg: I'm editing it times to time, but I've a "bible" in italian that is hard to translate, and once I would have finisched, would have been obsolete
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| 17:54 | <alkisg> markit: is anyone else reading that bible, or just you?
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| 17:54 | <markit> but sure I will review the wiki and "inject" some info
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| 17:54 | alkisg: is public available, CC
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| 17:54 | <alkisg> Yeah ok that's understandable
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| 17:54 | <markit> like my scripts, but seems that everyone wants to reinvent the wheel
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| 17:54 | and then ask me for help ;P
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| 17:54 | <alkisg> I too maintain an ltsp wiki in greek, but I couldn't do it for both greek + english
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| 17:55 | <markit> alkisg: only one problem, I've not clear what features are > 12.04 since I'm using your repo and a more recent ltsp packages
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| 17:55 | <alkisg> So we'll have to find translators... either from english => greek, or even from greek => english, with google translate etc
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| 17:55 | <markit> alkisg: btw, nice the screen feature for multiuser
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| 17:55 | <alkisg> markit: you can check the ubuntu ltsp 12.10 changelog
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| 17:55 | Or the ltsp trunk code
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| 17:55 | <markit> ^a :multiuser on
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| 17:56 | and connect with screen -x sessionname
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| 17:56 | <alkisg> We have that in epoptes, yeah
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| 17:56 | !screen
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| 17:56 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'screen', but I do know about these similar topics: 'shell-screen', 'disable_lock_screen', 'SCREEN_08', 'socat-screen', 'SCREEN_02', 'lock-screen'
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| 17:56 | <alkisg> !socat-screen
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| 17:56 | <ltsp> socat-screen: to share a local thin client shell with a remote person, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/Troubleshooting/socat-screen
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| 17:56 | * markit should not only say everybone how epoptes is good, but also use and master himself, shame on me! | |
| 17:56 | <markit> oh, I know that
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| 17:57 | but I never treid and did not realize was a "shared" screen
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| 17:57 | <alkisg> It's used internally by epoptes, via a GUI
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| 17:57 | <markit> I thought the trick was just the "reverse" connection
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| 17:57 | but the "assisted" were unable to see it
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| 17:57 | <alkisg> Nah the client, "teacher", usually wants to see what's going on, so it's shared
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| 17:58 | <markit> alkisg: so good (as usual from your side, lol)
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| 18:01 | alkisg: btw, did you solved the "not perfect cleanup" that was bugging you since 12.04?
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| 18:01 | <alkisg> Nope, sbalneav started working on this but he needs feedback
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| 18:01 | <markit> I've suggested the guy of the school to put a crontab to reboot the server nightly
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| 18:01 | <alkisg> I'm too trying to work on it from a different perspective
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| 18:02 | <markit> LDM_LIMIT_ONE_SESSION=True does not help?
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| 18:02 | <alkisg> No
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| 18:04 | <alkisg> Hmm we mess the environment a bit too..
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| 18:04 | E.g. "LANGUAGE=el_GR.UTF-8" while normally it is "LANGUAGE=el:en"
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| 18:14 | Another reason why unmounting /home/user before user processes terminate, fails, is that /home/username/.xsession-errors is still in use because of the stderr redirection
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| 18:15 | <jammcq> hey alkisg
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| 18:15 | <alkisg> Hi jammcq
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| 18:15 | <jammcq> alkisg: can you tell me what ltsp-pnp is?
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| 18:15 | <alkisg> Sure!
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| 18:15 | !ltsp-pnp
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| 18:15 | <ltsp> ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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| 18:16 | <jammcq> i haven't been around enought to follow the latest stuff
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| 18:16 | <alkisg> So basically you install ltsp-server and ltsp-client at the same time, and run ltsp-update-image on the whole disk itself
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| 18:17 | No chroots are used, the "server" is used as a template client chroot as well
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| 18:17 | <jammcq> does it copy everything from the server into the client image?
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| 18:18 | <alkisg> No, there's a cleanup phase on a tmpfs/aufs of the server root /
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| 18:18 | <jammcq> who's using this?
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| 18:18 | <alkisg> All greek schools, and a few others reported using it at the ltsp-discuss ml
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| 18:18 | And here too
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| 18:18 | <jammcq> this is almost the same thing as LTSP-1.0
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| 18:18 | <alkisg> Hehe
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| 18:18 | <markit> alkisg: when you upgraded greek schools to 12.04, you did to ltsp-pnp? wow
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| 18:18 | <jammcq> or maybe pre 1.0
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| 18:19 | <alkisg> markit: yeah I implemented ltsp-pnp for greek schools, and it wasn't ready for 12.04,
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| 18:19 | <jammcq> but around that time, we were seeing 386, 486 and 586 processors
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| 18:19 | and then 686
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| 18:19 | <alkisg> so then we used a ppa + a newer trunk version
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| 18:19 | <jammcq> when the 686 came out, the clients couldn't run the same code as the server
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| 18:19 | <alkisg> jammcq: well one could use the same idea with a physical "template client"
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| 18:19 | E.g. suppose I want to use ltsp with i386 server and arm thin clients,
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| 18:20 | I install an arm distro on a thin client normally , with a GUI (again no chroots involved),
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| 18:20 | then run ltsp-update-image on it to get the nbd disk,
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| 18:20 | and just transfer the nbd disk to the server
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| 18:20 | (or use NFS somewhere there)
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| 18:20 | <jammcq> how big is the nbd disk?
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| 18:20 | <alkisg> Again, a cleanup phase etc will be needed, so the ltsp-pnp parts should be there too
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| 18:20 | A normal ubuntu installation is just under 1 gb
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| 18:21 | <jammcq> normal ubuntu ltsp-pnp ?
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| 18:21 | <alkisg> But we've also been using huge disks of 5 gb
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| 18:21 | <jammcq> how much ram do you need on the client to run those?
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| 18:21 | <alkisg> Normal == just installing ubuntu from the live cd and ltsp-pnp without any extra software
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| 18:21 | It's like a local installation, so the ubuntu specs apply
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| 18:22 | Lubuntu ~= 512 mb, ubuntu ~= 1 gb etc
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| 18:22 | <jammcq> i've got a use case, where we just want to run a browser locally, probably with a simple window manager like Icewm or xfce
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| 18:22 | the customer is using RHEL6
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| 18:22 | <alkisg> And what about user homes? Should data be stored, or is it like a kiosk?
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| 18:22 | <jammcq> so that makes it a bit more complex
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| 18:23 | i'm not sure about user homes yet
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| 18:23 | it's for schools
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| 18:23 | it might be more like a kiosk
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| 18:23 | possibly storing user homes on a usb key
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| 18:23 | I need to have a meeting with them to iron out the details
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| 18:23 | <alkisg> The ltsp-pnp idea is most useful when the site doesn't have a sysadmin
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| 18:23 | So noone knows about chroots, terminal commands etc
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| 18:24 | <jammcq> they want to run hundreds of thing clients from a single server. I think if they try to run the sessions on the server they'll need a mainframe
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| 18:24 | <alkisg> If there's a sysadmin there, it won't matter much to him if he uses a chroot or not
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| 18:24 | There's a KIOSK session for thin chroots, which runs the browser locally (localapp)
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| 18:24 | SCREEN_07=kiosk <URL>
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| 18:24 | <jammcq> hmm
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| 18:24 | which browser?
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| 18:25 | <alkisg> Any
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| 18:25 | <jammcq> i'm just collecting ideas right now
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| 18:25 | but I really like the idea of running as much local as possible
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| 18:25 | the thin clients have 2GB of ram and 2GHz cpu
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| 18:25 | <alkisg> If the clients have 1 Gb RAM and at least an atom CPU, yeah, there's no point in running things at the server
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| 18:26 | Wow, ok, go for fat clients
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| 18:26 | <jammcq> too much power to sit there and just run an xserver
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| 18:26 | what's the boot time like on a fat client?
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| 18:26 | <alkisg> And is the RHEL6 a restriction for the chroot too, or only for the server?
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| 18:26 | It's usually lower than a standalone client
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| 18:26 | <jammcq> well... I'd like to convince them to go with either Ubuntu or Debian for the chroot
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| 18:26 | but they REALLY like Redhat
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| 18:26 | <alkisg> On 10.04 I got 12 seconds for really quick clients (pxe to ldm), but now it's a bit slower, 30-40 secs
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| 18:27 | <jammcq> so I might need to show them a demo
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| 18:27 | <alkisg> You should talk with Hyperbyte for the RHEL vs Ubuntu thing, he used both (fedora, at least)
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| 18:27 | <jammcq> hmm
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| 18:27 | <alkisg> It's the problem with the ltsp maintainance there
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| 18:27 | <jammcq> i've been talking with Warren togami a bit about it. he's willing to guide me through the Fedora/RHEL bits
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| 18:28 | <alkisg> Sure, if you're up to pushing fixes... I'm sure RHEL users would welcome them
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| 18:28 | <jammcq> I was surprised that LTSP for fedora was as far as it is
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| 18:28 | I really like RH for servers
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| 18:28 | <markit> btw, fedora has also the "multisead feature" that is very interesting (not in your case, but if you are curious)
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| 18:29 | <jammcq> not crazy about it for desktops, but if we're using Icewm or xfce, it doesn't much matter
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| 18:29 | what is multisead?
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| 18:29 | <alkisg> There was a person here interested in picking up fedora/ltsp maintainance, but warren didn't give him the "keys", no idea why...
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| 18:29 | <markit> multiseat, sorry
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| 18:29 | <jammcq> hmm, warren told me he thought he had someone to take over, but the guy disappeared
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| 18:29 | <markit> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Multiseat
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| 18:29 | <jammcq> wonder if it's the same guy
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| 18:29 | or if there's a misunderstanding between them
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| 18:30 | <alkisg> Maybe... i've been seeing a person here for 1 year or so, and warren didn't reply to him, i think
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| 18:30 | Anyways
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| 18:30 | <jammcq> he's in grad school right now and said he'd have some time in February to sort it out
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| 18:30 | but he'd really like to offload it to a new maintainer
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| 18:30 | ahhh, multiseat
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| 18:31 | <alkisg> I think sending a mail to the ltsp-devel ML would be a good start for letting people know a new maintainer is needed for fedora
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| 18:32 | <jammcq> I played with ChromeOS yesterday
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| 18:32 | and I'm wondering what it would take to make that net-bootable
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| 18:32 | the problem is, the image is about 2.3GB
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| 18:33 | but it's basically a browser interface
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| 18:34 | <alkisg> The size doesn't matter, as long as the OS supports some remote file system
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| 18:34 | Like NFS or NBD
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| 18:34 | <jammcq> ChromeOS is a linux kernel
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| 18:34 | and it's all opensource, so I know it's possible
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| 18:35 | <alkisg> I think once someone asked about porting ltsp to chromeos...
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| 18:35 | <jammcq> I think it would be the other way around
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| 18:35 | but actually, it's just making chromeos netbootable
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| 18:36 | so maybe it's not ltsp at all, just "like ltsp"
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| 18:36 | <alkisg> Well, if one makes it use ssh for authentication, nfs for shared homes, lts.conf for shared settings... then it's ltsp :P
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| 18:37 | (and the netbooted part of course)
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| 18:38 | <jammcq> there's definitely some overlap
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| 19:12 | <alkisg> knipwim or anyone... $ grep -r run_xk_scripts .
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| 19:12 | ./client/share/ltsp/screen-x-common:run_xk_scripts() {
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| 19:13 | ...the XK scripts don't get called... did they get called previously?
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| 19:19 | Meh... unfortunately at the XK point, LDM_HOME etc are not set so we can't do the cleanup without reorganizing things
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| 19:21 | <markit> alkisg: ltsp changelog from 12.04 to 12.10 is wow, very long! wondering if 12.04 is even working ;P
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| 19:21 | https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/quantal/+source/ltsp/+changelog
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| 19:22 | <alkisg> :)
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| 19:23 | <markit> ltsp-config never heard about it
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| 19:25 | <alkisg> It's a new tool that helps in configuring an ltsp server... for example, ltsp-config lts.conf gives you an example lts.conf file
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| 19:25 | So, about the cleanup stuff
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| 19:26 | We run fusermount -uqz ${LDM_HOME}; rmdir ${LDM_HOME} while the user processes are still running
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| 19:26 | Then, some of them need to "flush" some data while being terminated
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| 19:27 | So they generate /home/username/.config/* locally on the client, in the aufs image
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| 19:27 | And on subsequent logins, the user home dir doesn't get mounted with sshfs because our code thinks the sysadmin has somehow configured local homes
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| 19:28 | So solving the "unmount after processes terminate" would also solve the "$HOME doesn't get mounted with sshfs on second+ logon"
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