IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 15 April 2011 (all times are UTC)
| 00:11 | <muppis> After upgrading alsa, localapps cannot found /dev/dsp..
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| 00:55 | I'm screwed. Now sounds doesn't wrok at all.
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| 01:16 | <elias_a> muppis: Oops...
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| 01:26 | <muppis> Well, now rebuilding chroot. Hope it helps.
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| 06:20 | lipinski (~lipinski@c-98-226-184-22.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #ltsp. | |
| 06:21 | <lipinski> I'm having problems mounting a USB drive/device on a Client. Tried following https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebugLocalDev, but there's no /var/run/ltspfs_tab on the client
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| 06:21 | any ideas?
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| 06:32 | <Gadi> lipinski: is it a 64-bit chroot?
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| 06:32 | lipinski: currently there is a bug that prevents local devices from working in a 64-bit chroot
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| 06:37 | <lipinski> Gadi: no - it's an i386
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| 06:37 | Well, it's an x86_64 server, but an i386 client
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| 06:38 | <Gadi> lipinski: and you connect to Gnome?
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| 06:38 | <lipinski> Gadi: I don't understand...
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| 06:39 | <Gadi> I mean you log in to a gnome desktop?
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| 06:39 | <lipinski> yes
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| 06:39 | <Gadi> is it a usb flash drive or a usb hard drive?
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| 06:39 | <lipinski> I thought it was odd there was no ltspfs_tab file
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| 06:39 | it's actually a Nook Color
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| 06:40 | The server recognizes it and mounts it fine. The Client also recognizes it as a hard drive device
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| 06:40 | <Gadi> ah - maybe that needs special drivers (it may not be a USB Mass Storage device)
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| 06:40 | <lipinski> it's recognized by the client - I watched /var/log/messages on the Client.
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| 06:40 | <Gadi> does it assing it a /dev/sda1 ?
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| 06:40 | *assign
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| 06:41 | <lipinski> I believe so - let me try again. back in a few.
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| 06:44 | <lipinski> yes - it assigns a /dev/sdb device, but does not recognize a FS - so no /dev/sdb1
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| 06:45 | actually - this is the same way the server handles it. fdisk -l shows the sdX device but no filesystem. Gnome still handles it on the server side and I can navigate the device
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| 06:46 | <Gadi> can you run: fdisk -l /dev/sdb
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| 06:46 | on the client
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| 06:46 | and see if it has a partition table
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| 06:46 | <lipinski> yes. - no partition table.
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| 06:46 | Looks exactly the same as on the Server
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| 06:47 | <Gadi> ah - so it most likely is not really using usb-storage driver but maybe some other fuse filesystem or some such to read it
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| 06:47 | when the server mounts it, what does the mountpoint look like?
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| 06:47 | <lipinski> /dev/sde on /media/MyNOOKcolor type vfat (rw,nosuid,nodev,uhelper=udisks,uid=1001,gid=100,shortname=mixed,dmask=0077,utf8=1,showexec,flush)
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| 06:47 | <Gadi> huh
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| 06:48 | can you mount it manually on the client?
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| 06:48 | <lipinski> let me try.
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| 06:51 | ok - I was wrong. On the client, /dev/sdb is created, but fdisk cannot list it
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| 06:52 | fdisk -l /dev/sdb states unable to open /dev/sdb
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| 06:52 | <Gadi> and does: mount -tvfat /dev/sdb /mnt fail?
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| 06:56 | <lipinski> ok - that must have been a glich. I unplugged/re-plugged.
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| 06:56 | fdisk -l /dev/sbd shows the device but no filesystems
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| 06:56 | I can mount it successfully
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| 07:01 | <Gadi> strange
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| 07:01 | out of curiosity, can you try booting the client with the nook plugged in?
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| 07:02 | someone recently reported some localdev weirdness with a USB DVD drive that may be indicative of a similar problem
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| 07:06 | <lipinski> I'll try...
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| 07:06 | (appreciate all the help BTW)
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| 07:08 | <Gadi> np - LTSP localdev stuff was our own creation out of necessity - we needed a network automounting local device system. Unfortunately, it sonetimes has quirks and issues with unusual devices
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| 07:08 | :)
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| 07:08 | *sometimes
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| 07:17 | <lipinski> ok - took a while. Figured out why the device sometimes was not recognized. When in screensaver mode, the device is recognized by the OS, but fdisk can't list it.
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| 07:18 | So, as you thought - when I boot the client with the device connected, it mounts.
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| 07:18 | Upon login, it also shows a icon on the desktop - it's not "friendly"-named, but it works.
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| 07:19 | i.e., on the Server, the device is called something like MyNOOKColor, but on the Client, it's something like usbdisk-sda. That's no big deal, though.
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| 07:25 | <Gadi> hmm... so, if the device were not plugged in when the client boots AND the device were NOT in screensaver mode, would it work, as well?
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| 07:29 | <lipinski> nope - I just re-tested that scenario
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| 07:30 | Seems like the only problem is the auto-mounting part
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| 07:39 | Nick change: evil_root -> zz_evil_root | |
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| 08:50 | <jammcq> hey all
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| 08:51 | <Roasted_> hi there
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| 08:53 | <jammcq> seems kind of quiet around here today
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| 08:54 | <Roasted_> It's always quiet here with random spurts of conversation/troubleshooting :P
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| 08:54 | * vagrantc waves to jammcq | |
| 08:55 | <jammcq> hey vagrantc, how are you doing?
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| 08:57 | <vagrantc> jammcq: other than a bit of the sniffles, pretty well :)
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| 08:58 | <jammcq> cool. still out in portland?
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| 08:58 | <vagrantc> aye
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| 08:59 | jammcq: i presume you're still in michigan?
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| 09:00 | * vagrantc wonders if debian's the only gig in town that still supports 486+ | |
| 09:00 | <jammcq> hmm, seems like that could be the case
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| 09:01 | <vagrantc> i was just starting to think debian should default to 686 kernels, and then freegeek got a bunch of via thinclients that need the 486 kernel
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| 09:02 | and when i mentioned switching, a number of places suggested that it was not uncommon for via or geode thin clients
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| 09:02 | <jammcq> I'm hoping for Ubuntu, that someone will maintain a kernel in a PPA so that installs will be easier
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| 09:03 | <vagrantc> jammcq: it might not just be the kernel for ubuntu, from what i hear
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| 09:03 | <jammcq> oh, probably other optimizations that require cpu support
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| 09:04 | <vagrantc> yeah
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| 09:04 | if you're going to go optimized, you may as well go all the way
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| 09:05 | unless, of course, you don't gain much
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| 09:10 | <jammcq> ok, lunch time. see ya'll a bit later
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| 10:27 | <Roasted_> Has anybody here used L300 gear by NComputing on LTSP?
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| 10:28 | This ridiculous proprietary software is driving me nuts but I'm trying to "salvage" our wasted expenses with this failed Windows based thin client solution since they have an Ubuntu based management console for it.
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| 10:31 | <Lns> Roasted, what's up with your ncomputing stuff? i've heard from many school it ppl that they work fairly well
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| 10:31 | <Roasted_> They suck.
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| 10:31 | badly.
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| 10:32 | There's always problems, and yet there's always "a new patch coming out that will fix the issue".
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| 10:32 | Yet the problems still linger.
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| 10:33 | We began to wonder if its just the fact we were using Windows based solutions so we ditched it for LTSP since LTSP has ran flawlessly in comparison. But once I heard NComputing has an Ubuntu console I thought I should at least try it. If it works, that's at least 50 seats we can scatter around the building for internet cafe related scenarios.
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| 10:38 | <elias_a> Roasted_: Are your comments based on experience?
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| 10:39 | <Roasted_> Yep.
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| 10:39 | <elias_a> OK.
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| 10:39 | <Roasted_> We ran it for a year.
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| 10:39 | <elias_a> I tried their stuff a year ago and it was quite fluent.
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| 10:39 | <Roasted_> But rebooting it once or twice daily for it to function just wasn't an option anymore... so on a hunch we put LTSP in without having tested it anywhere else.
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| 10:39 | It ran flawless for the last month. I haven't touched the server.
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| 10:39 | <elias_a> I was however not satisfied with the content of their technical answers.
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| 10:40 | <Roasted_> Yeah. That's just a bad joke.
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| 10:40 | <elias_a> I wonder if HP Multiseat is any better...
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| 10:40 | <Roasted_> I was just thinking, we own this gear. So if I could still utilize it on LTSP that would be real sweet to at least keep using it.
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| 10:40 | No.
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| 10:40 | We tried that too.
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| 10:40 | <elias_a> Really?
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| 10:40 | <Roasted_> I actually removed an HP Multiseat USB-based section of computers last week for LTSP.
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| 10:41 | <elias_a> Any written reports on your experiences?
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| 10:41 | <Roasted_> It was only an 8 seat pod connected via USB to a decently powered desktop system.
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| 10:41 | I didn't write anything up formally, no.
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| 10:41 | <elias_a> Too bad...
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| 10:41 | <Roasted_> As a department it just got old having to babysit the NComputing and HP Multiseat labs.
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| 10:41 | So LTSP is now in those two areas.
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| 10:41 | And working.
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| 10:41 | <elias_a> Could I ask you to be a guest speaker in a webinar?
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| 10:41 | <Roasted_> Haha, why's that.
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| 10:42 | Is your environment considering that gear?
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| 10:42 | <elias_a> Well - NComputing and Multiseat are the only really known alternatives to LTSP in Finland.
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| 10:42 | <Roasted_> Why do you need an alternative to LTSP?
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| 10:43 | <elias_a> I just want a well argumented basis on my assertion that LTSP is technically supreme.
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| 10:43 | Which it is.
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| 10:43 | <Roasted_> Almost all of the issues I ran into with LTSP were simply lack of experience on my part, since I had to learn LTSP and how it functions, etc.
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| 10:44 | <elias_a> Some schools are running Windoze TC:s but they do not want to talk about the cost.
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| 10:44 | <Roasted_> I was testing LTSP with intention of bringing it up to my boss this summer.
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| 10:44 | Testing, as in... 1 server and 3 clients here on my work bench. Nothing that users actually USED.
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| 10:44 | But long story short, users got so frustrated with the constant problems of the lab (I work in a school district) that they began to really light some fires.
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| 10:45 | <elias_a> Roasted_: Are you walking upside down? :P
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| 10:45 | <Roasted_> So in a last resort, I brought this up to the department.
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| 10:45 | <elias_a> Sounds familiar :)
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| 10:45 | <Roasted_> I had absolutely no idea if I could, but for some reason I said yes.
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| 10:45 | Been running ever since ;)
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| 10:45 | <elias_a> Superb!
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| 10:46 | <Roasted_> the biggest issues I have with it aren't LTSP related, but just Linux related, since we are technically a Windows shop.
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| 10:46 | <elias_a> You seem to be walking in a funny angle (= you're in USA), right?
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| 10:46 | <Roasted_> yeah, USA.
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| 10:46 | <elias_a> Which time zone?
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| 10:46 | <Roasted_> Eastern.
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| 10:47 | <elias_a> And that is GMT +/- what?
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| 10:47 | <Roasted_> I think -4
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| 10:47 | brb
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| 10:49 | yeah I think this ncomputing software on linux has no hope.
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| 10:49 | besides, they only have 32 bit support
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| 10:49 | <elias_a> Roasted: We are GMT +2 so if you'd like to share your experiences we could have a webinar early in your morning which would be our afternoon.
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| 10:49 | <Roasted_> who runs 32 bit on servers...
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| 10:50 | My experiences are pretty cut and dry though. The gear just randomly crashed and needed constant reboots.
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| 10:50 | Besides, I have work. :(
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| 10:50 | LTSP just "works" for me.
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| 10:51 | <elias_a> Roasted_: Same experiences here. I've been able to leave techers w windoze experience to maintain LTSP systems of +200 users after 2 days of training.
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| 10:52 | same sort of experience, that is...
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| 10:52 | <Roasted_> Are you currently running LTSP?
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| 10:52 | <elias_a> pardon for my sloppy language.... it's already 20:53 and Friday so...
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| 10:53 | Roasted_: Yes. For testing and demo purposes.
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| 10:53 | <Lns> Roasted & elias_a : what are the primary functions of your ltsp systems?
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| 10:53 | <Roasted_> Here's my theory.
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| 10:53 | If what you're using works... and is cost effective... WHY consider anything else.
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| 10:53 | <elias_a> I am getting paid for promoting FLOSS to schools in Finland.
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| 10:53 | <Roasted_> I see NOTHING appealing of NComputing or HP Multiseat over LTSP.
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| 10:54 | Lns, I work in a school environment. I have 3 LTSP setups. Two in libraries for general research/study, and the third is in a large (but also general research type) of lab.
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| 10:54 | <elias_a> Roasted_: What about standalone PC compared to LTSP?
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| 10:54 | <Roasted_> elias_a, Not entirely sure what you are asking...
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| 10:54 | <Lns> Roasted, how do you handle mandatory windows applications, flash/shockwave, other things like this?
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| 10:54 | <Roasted_> Flash works fine on Linux.
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| 10:54 | <Lns> Roasted, how big is your lab?
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| 10:54 | <Roasted_> Mandatory applications we are still working around.
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| 10:55 | 30 in one lab, then 9, then 8
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| 10:55 | 9 and 8 are library pods
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| 10:55 | <elias_a> Roasted_: Have you done any comparison between the odds and cons between standalone PC's and LTSP?
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| 10:55 | <Lns> and you can use flash on the ltsp server to all 30 workstations simultaneously?
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| 10:55 | <Roasted_> Lns, No, flash sucks in that instance.
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| 10:55 | <Roasted_> Lns, but that's irrelevant whether you're on Linux or Windows thin clients.
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| 10:55 | <elias_a> Roasted_: Have you tried the local app approach?
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| 10:56 | <Roasted_> oh yes
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| 10:56 | but there's further issues behind those scenes
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| 10:56 | elias_a, the pros and cons are pretty simple between standalone and thin client environments.
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| 10:56 | elias_a, I'd rather run stand alone on systems that NEED power. For the labs I have LTSP in, I benefit more from the thin client approach than standard installs. That's why I devoted the time I did to learn LTSP and test it there.
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| 10:58 | <elias_a> Roasted_: I do not know what I could offer you in exchange but I'd really love to have you as a guest speaker.
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| 10:58 | <Roasted_> elias_a, I'm not sure what I could possibly speak about, even if I could make the time aside from my work schedule.
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| 10:59 | elias_a, NComputing = didn't work. HP multiseat = didn't work. They constantly needed restarted and just weren't cost effective in the long run.
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| 10:59 | <elias_a> Roasted_: If it feels inconvient or too tight in terms of schedule, we'll skip it.
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| 11:00 | Just thought that maybe it would be a wise move to involve your boss, too.... ;-)
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| 11:00 | <Roasted_> elias_a, it's just a hard thing to swing. Between work and my side jobs I'm normally never done with work until pretty late in the evening.
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| 11:00 | Combine that with finland time vs US and you have quite a difference in availability :P
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| 11:00 | <elias_a> What we could tell you guys is how the market is running here...
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| 11:01 | Roasted_: Yep. That's why I was joking about walking in a funny angle ;-)
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| 11:02 | <Roasted_> haa, I noticed :P
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| 11:02 | <elias_a> Roasted_: Maybe I just refer to this discussion some day.
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| 11:03 | <Roasted_> elias_a, I'm just confused over why a webinar would have to take place to convince somebody LTSP is the better option. If NComputing worked for us without issue, I would have never found LTSP because I would have never had the need to try and resaerch for osmething like it.
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| 11:03 | But since NComputing gave us issues, I searched, I found it, I came here and talked with users and I set up environments with it to play around.
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| 11:03 | <elias_a> Roasted_: Anyways - we have some sort of LTSP community here in Finland. Techy people and about 12% of pupils using LTSP in schools.
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| 11:03 | <Roasted_> Then before I knew it, it was in production.
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| 11:05 | <elias_a> Well, yes - but I have to deal with public sector execs who do not know of anything better than windoze....
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| 11:05 | <Roasted_> I gave a presentation to the board about linux, ltsp, open source, etc.
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| 11:05 | They resented it until they realized how much software we already use that is linux based, like on some of our servers, etc.
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| 11:06 | Then I threw cost into it.
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| 11:06 | <elias_a> These dudes do not even know what the student terminal/PC costs annually...
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| 11:06 | <Roasted_> I can try Ubuntu and LTSP @ no cost to see how it works. If it works, we can invest in technical support for it as a backbone. If it tanks, zero dollars lost.
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| 11:06 | Meanwhile...
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| 11:06 | We could spend 110,000 dollars to upgrade to Windows 7 if you like...
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| 11:06 | <elias_a> And I am going to turn this thing upside down in this country.
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| 11:07 | Roasted_: I really like your way of putting it :)
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| 11:07 | <Roasted_> Well, there's no reason to beat around the bush.
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| 11:07 | If you want to do xyz tasks, here's Ubuntu. If you want to do xyz tasks and spend a ton of money, here's Windows.
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| 11:08 | Either way, I have to support it. At the end of the day, that's my job, regardless of what platform it is.
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| 11:08 | So truthfully it means nothing to me which route we go.
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| 11:08 | But at least I can sleep better at night knowing I tried to push a more affordable alternative, even if they decline it.
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| 11:09 | <elias_a> What do you think would be the reasonable amount to reserve for developing the system percentagewise?
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| 11:09 | <Roasted_> for developing the system?
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| 11:10 | <elias_a> Here some communities have been glad to cut the total budged frame down when LTSP has saved them money...
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| 11:11 | AFAIK LTSP saves you something between 20 - 80% so this is an issue.
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| 11:11 | <Roasted_> Here's the black and white of it.
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| 11:11 | The way I look at it.
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| 11:11 | <elias_a> Shoot.
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| 11:11 | <Roasted_> Each box we buy averages 500 dollars. Each box gets Office + Windows which = 50/per additional (we get a sick Microsoft discount being a school) = which puts each box cost at 600 bucks.
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| 11:11 | That box averages a 380w power supply.
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| 11:12 | 30 systems @ 7 hours runtime daily/5 days a week/9 months of the year = a decent energy cost.
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| 11:12 | OR
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| 11:12 | Use Ubuntu and Libre Office to save 100 bucks per box... forever. No cost there. Ever. No upgrade fees... nadda.
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| 11:12 | AND use LTSP with light duty atom boxes in areas that don't need high processing.
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| 11:13 | I'd say 70% of the labs we have DONT need dual core boxes with 3gb RAM.
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| 11:13 | <elias_a> Roasted_: This is the messages I have delivered to Finnish schools....
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| 11:13 | <Roasted_> So instead of spending 500 per seat, dump 200 per seat on an Atom based 1gb RAM slim workstation that PXE boots to LTSP
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| 11:13 | Not to mention they use on average 60w instead of 380w.
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| 11:13 | <elias_a> ...to the extent that the local M$ people are either afraid or aggressive...
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| 11:14 | <Roasted_> So if you use 320w less per seat... in 9 months that = a pretty penny.
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| 11:14 | <elias_a> Ugh!
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| 11:14 | <Roasted_> Not to mention, you're spending 200 bucks a seat instead of 500. And you're realistically spending 200 bucks a seat instead of 600 if you factor in OS and Office suite savings.
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| 11:14 | So you cut each seat down by 2/3 and you gave 70% of the power you were previously using.
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| 11:14 | <elias_a> Maybe I should serve the community and translate the stuff I've written on this subject to english.
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| 11:15 | <Roasted_> Ah, crap. I forgot about an LTSP server. So factor in 3 grand on a Dell R610 server and call it a day. Either way, you're still saving a TON of cash....
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| 11:15 | <elias_a> Roasted_: Plus - you don't have to invest to a cooling system...
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| 11:15 | <Roasted_> 200 x 30 = 6 grand. + 3 grand for the server = 9 grand for a lab.
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| 11:16 | Or 18,000 for standalone boxes with Windows and MS Office on them.
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| 11:17 | I can understand skepticism when you need to spend 20,000 on an experiment, knowing that 20 grand might be a loss.
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| 11:17 | Considering you can throw LTSP on any box and try it out, then test out any other old box you have as a client, it's a 0 cost experiment.
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| 11:18 | <elias_a> Roasted_: FYI - In Finland town of Kemi switched to LTSP and bought it as a turn key solution for approx 550 terminals.
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| 11:19 | Turn key was the cheapest way to do it.
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| 11:19 | <Lns> Roasted, you've presented your school district LTSP/linux in a very good way. It's all about convincing the people that it's worthwhile. I have always had trouble convincing the technicians and teachers since they knew 0 about Linux and they were incredibly resilient to learning it
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| 11:20 | i spent 90% of my time trying to get ltsp working with proprietary software
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| 11:21 | <elias_a> No - sorry - 460 workstations.
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| 11:21 | <Lns> flash, shockwave, windows VMs for things like Star Reading/Math, instead of spending time expanding the system
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| 11:21 | <elias_a> Estimated cost 2010-2015....
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| 11:22 | (snare tremolo begins.....)
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| 11:22 | | |
| 11:22 | | |
| 11:23 | | |
| 11:23 | (Splash - da - dunk)
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| 11:24 | And this is really all inclusive.
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| 11:24 | Using a modified Ubuntu with personal user acoounts & full integration to local LDAP and stuff.
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| 11:29 | <elias_a> Thanks, dudes! Gonna hit the sauna now!
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| 13:10 | <Bas_> I'm using lbserver, but in the log file I get: cannot retrieve node "ltsp-node01", error :<class 'socket.timeout'>. any help?
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| 13:37 | <mgariepy> Bas_, is the client running on the applications server ?
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| 13:38 | on ltsp-node01
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| 13:44 | <elias_a> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/11/04/15/194235/OpenOfficeorg-To-Be-Given-Back-To-the-Community?utm_source=slashdot&utm_medium=twitter
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| 13:45 | <Bas_> mgariepy, yes and I can ping ltsp-node01
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| 13:47 | <mgariepy> can you pastebin both /etc/ltsp/lbserver.xml and /etc/ltsp/lbaconfig.xml please?
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| 13:53 | <Bas_> mgariepy, thanks I guess I solved my problem, I added ltsp-node01 to /etc/hosts, after restarted lbserver and now it works
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| 13:53 | <mgariepy> ha ok :)
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| 13:53 | cool
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| 00:00 | --- Sat Apr 16 2011 | |