IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 19 May 2012 (all times are UTC)
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| 00:52 | <vagrantc> well, NBD in sid appears completely broken.
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| 01:12 | <vagrantc> NBD works just often enough for me to think i'm going crazy
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| 03:11 | <vagrantc> do other distros have /run/sendsigs.omit.d/ or /var/run/sendsigs.omit.d/ or /lib/init/rw/sendsigs.omit.d ? i know it's there on Debian and Ubuntu ... others?
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| 03:55 | <alkisg> Hmmm we also have to do a bit of work in ltsp-docs
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| 03:56 | <vagrantc> indeed!
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| 03:57 | <alkisg> ltsp-config would go in /usr/sbin, so it would need a man page, right?
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| 03:57 | <vagrantc> although doc updates are usually less restrictive
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| 03:57 | a man page would be good, yes.
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| 03:57 | alkisg: so the latest version of NBD in sid broke nbd-client :(
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| 03:58 | alkisg: spent much of the day fighting with that
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| 03:58 | <alkisg> Broke it in what way?
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| 03:58 | initramfs script?
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| 03:58 | <vagrantc> nbd-client wouldn't connect
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| 03:58 | <alkisg> Ouch
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| 03:59 | Did you locate the bug?
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| 03:59 | <vagrantc> no, but i filed one
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| 03:59 | http://bugs.debian.org/673497
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| 03:59 | <alkisg> So it won't connect even when the command line is given manually ?
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| 03:59 | * alkisg checks... | |
| 03:59 | <vagrantc> well, two actually, but the other had a patch.
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| 04:00 | both release-critical, though... *sigh*
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| 04:00 | <alkisg> Btw you don't mind about the [/opt/ltsp/i386] vs [:ltsp_i386] change, right?
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| 04:02 | <vagrantc> alkisg: it seems a shame to have made so many changes that precise and wheezy will be so different.
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| 04:02 | <alkisg> True about that :(
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| 04:02 | We should either have started all the rapid ltsp changes in ...september, or, well, next september
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| 04:02 | <vagrantc> we really should've restructured the source tree earlier ... now nearly all patches will have to be applied manually, if anything comes up
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| 04:02 | <alkisg> But then Gadi started all the changes and we had to finish them
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| 04:03 | <vagrantc> i'm really happy about the direction it's gone, the timing was just kind of crazy
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| 04:04 | Parker955 is now known as Parker955_Away | |
| 04:04 | * vagrantc schemes to make --vendor Ubuntu work | |
| 04:04 | <vagrantc> on Debian, and vice-versa.
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| 04:04 | <alkisg> I'll try to make the opposite work too
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| 04:05 | I think I'm really going to offer a debian-chroot package for greek schools with only thin clients
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| 04:05 | apt-get install, doe
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| 04:05 | *done
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| 04:05 | <vagrantc> a prebuilt image?
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| 04:05 | <alkisg> Yeah, and we'll update it on every kernel update
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| 04:05 | They don't care much about security
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| 04:06 | <vagrantc> would definitely be easy.
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| 04:06 | alkisg: you could even automate updates ...
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| 04:12 | <alkisg> Hmmm and if ltsp-build-client was called from the package itself, it would also be a good test suite :)
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| 04:14 | <vagrantc> alkisg: you mean a package that gets pushed to debian?
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| 04:14 | alkisg: er, ubuntu?
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| 04:15 | alkisg: gotta say, ltsp-update-kernels pulling from the NBD image nearly drove me insane troubleshooting NBD problems today.
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| 04:15 | <alkisg> vagrantc: it'd be nice, but it doesn't have to be in debian/ubuntu, if it's automated and runs on some server it's good enough for me
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| 04:15 | <vagrantc> it was really difficult to remember exactly what order to pull stuff from
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| 04:16 | alkisg: yeah, i don't think you'd see that sort of thing hitting Debian or Ubuntu for that matter.
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| 04:16 | <alkisg> I think opensuse offers such a thing
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| 04:16 | Edubuntu does too in the live dvd
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| 04:17 | <vagrantc> i guess a live image isn't really any different
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| 04:17 | i actually have a server i could run an automated build on to make it happen.
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| 04:18 | hmmm.
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| 04:18 | <alkisg> I have a server with a debian repository to upload the result :)
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| 04:18 | <vagrantc> i could host it and you could just mirror or something
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| 04:19 | <alkisg> I'd love that. Just also put nbd support in the image and epoptes-client :D
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| 04:19 | <vagrantc> this sounds like an interesting project once i resolve the issues
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| 04:20 | catch up with all my packaging before the freeze hits, that is
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| 04:20 | <alkisg> I hope stgraber uploads packaging soon too so that I can test more properly
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| 04:23 | Eh we didn't take care of sendsig problems? :-/
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| 04:26 | <vagrantc> you mean through something other than init-ltsp.d ?
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| 04:27 | the init-ltsp.d/50-sendsigs only created the files if /run/sendsigs.omit.d (etc.) existed, but at least on debian, none of the dirs were created.
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| 04:28 | i think my patch should fix it.
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| 04:46 | <alkisg> True for ubuntu too
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| 04:48 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i see to recall y'all having done some other trickery to prevent nbd-client/nbd-proxy from being killed?
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| 04:48 | <alkisg> I don't think so, only the sendsigs
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| 04:52 | <vagrantc> usually i didn't notice it crashing ... but it did sometimes
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| 04:52 | <alkisg> I think I rarely saw it crashing too
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| 04:53 | Now if only `bzr pull` decided to start working again instead of just blocking there with no error messages....
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| 04:56 | <vagrantc> ouch
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| 05:05 | <alkisg> OK I enabled -e for server scripts, I think we rely on it being set in many cases
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| 05:05 | <vagrantc> the two i know of set it themselves
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| 05:06 | ltsp-build-client and ltsp-update-image
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| 05:08 | <alkisg> ltsp-update-image did set it some time ago, but I removed it some days back since it was set by ltsp-common-functions
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| 05:08 | I think I removed it from some other tool too for the same reason but not sure which
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| 05:08 | <vagrantc> someone un-removed it
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| 05:09 | <alkisg> You mean in the trap cleanup function?
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| 05:09 | <vagrantc> right, i see it now.
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| 05:09 | <alkisg> Anyway it shouldn't be there anymore, not even in the function, if you pull
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| 05:10 | <vagrantc> alkisg: oh, i've been testing with a 64MB ram client
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| 05:10 | works fine still.
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| 05:11 | <alkisg> In Ubuntu I have to remove plymouth from the initramfs in order to allow the kernel to uncompress it in 64 MB RAM :(
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| 05:11 | That's why I'd like a "debian-thin-chroot" package and not an Ubuntu one ;)
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| 05:11 | * vagrantc wonders how nbd-server handles multiple /etc/nbd-server/conf.d/*.conf files with the same [name] | |
| 05:11 | <alkisg> I think it prevents it from loading, if i remember well
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| 05:12 | <vagrantc> should be easy to find out.
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| 05:13 | do the ubuntu mirrors generally carry DIST, DIST-updates and DIST-security?
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| 05:14 | all on the same mirror?
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| 05:15 | looks to be the case.
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| 05:15 | <alkisg> http://paste.debian.net/170082/
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| 05:15 | <vagrantc> maybe the default for SECURITY_MIRROR and UPDATES_MIRROR should be the same server ad MIRROR ?
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| 05:16 | <alkisg> No idea about mirrors, would need to take some time to look into what each of those mean
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| 05:16 | <vagrantc> then simply setting mirror would set all the values.
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| 05:17 | alkisg: in the ltsp-build-client plugin, there's a different default value for each
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| 05:17 | seems like it could just default to the same, if not specified on the commandline.
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| 05:18 | <alkisg> SECURITY_MIRROR=${SECURITY_MIRROR:-"http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu"}
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| 05:18 | I didn't know about security.ubuntu.com...
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| 05:21 | * vagrantc is trying the Ubuntu chroot on Debian host | |
| 05:21 | <alkisg> What commandline are you using?
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| 05:21 | <vagrantc> alkisg: have to hard-code vendor due, but other than that ...
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| 05:22 | <alkisg> We could have VENDOR=${VENDOR:-...} in the code to avoid that
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| 05:22 | On in some .conf file
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| 05:22 | <vagrantc> alkisg: ltsp-build-client --mirror ... --dist precise --arch i386 --accept-unsigned-packages
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| 05:23 | really want to pass it as a commandline argument ...
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| 05:23 | as the use-case might likely involve multiple chroots ... but the commandline prrocessing happens later.
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| 05:24 | so we could handle --vendor manually ...
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| 05:24 | <alkisg> vagrantc: why commandline? If it's something rare, I'd prefer to specify it in the environment as VENDOR=xxx ltsp-build-client...
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| 05:24 | Otherwise we get a lot of parameters to document and maintain :(
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| 05:25 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i hate the hoops to pass variables with sudo
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| 05:25 | i mean, it's doable ... but ugh.
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| 05:25 | <alkisg> Why would that affect anything though?
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| 05:25 | <vagrantc> VENDOR=foo sudo ltsp-build-client ... helpfully cleans the variable
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| 05:26 | sudo VENDOR=foo ltsp-build-client ... gives VENDOR=foo command not found ... no?
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| 05:26 | <alkisg> sudo VENDOR=foo ltsp-build-client
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| 05:26 | <vagrantc> that works now?
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| 05:26 | <alkisg> sudo [-AbEHnPS] [-C fd] [-D level] [-g group name|#gid] [-p prompt] [-u user name|#uid] [VAR=value] [-i | -s] [command]
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| 05:26 | ...[VAR=value]
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| 05:26 | * vagrantc was pretty sure that hasn't always worked... | |
| 05:27 | <alkisg> It's documented in hardy... http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/hardy/en/man8/sudo.8.html
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| 05:27 | No idea about before
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| 05:27 | <vagrantc> fair enough
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| 05:28 | <alkisg> Ah, it's not in dapper :) http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/dapper/en/man8/sudo.8.html
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| 05:35 | <vagrantc> 7-8 years without it is long enough to just assume it doesn't work :)
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| 05:35 | till some youngin comes along with all these new featuresa
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| 06:03 | <vagrantc> well, apparently it failed on the first attempt to call add_mirrors
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| 06:03 | <Hyperbyte> Hi vagrantc! :-)
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| 06:05 | * vagrantc waves | |
| 06:10 | * vagrantc attempts monstrous hybrids another day. | |
| 06:17 | <VectorX> will this work good ?, i7-2600k, 16gb ram, win7 64 ultimate host, : i was thinking of installing the ltsp server in a vbox with about 8gb of ram and direct acces to the processor, and have win-xp also in another vbox for rdp with 8gb of ram assigned to it ?
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| 06:24 | <muppis> You're killing the host with that.
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| 06:24 | <VectorX> what do you mean ?
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| 06:25 | <muppis> Doesn't leave any ram for it.
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| 06:25 | <VectorX> somehow the movie alien comes to mind with that comment
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| 06:25 | <muppis> And 32 bit xp doesn't handle mode than 3 GB of ram.
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| 06:26 | <VectorX> ok so if i made it 2.8 or 3gb and installed 32bit xp, i should be ok ?
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| 06:26 | <muppis> Better at least.
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| 06:26 | <VectorX> also would i really need 8gb for the ltsp ?
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| 06:27 | <muppis> If using only for rdp session, no.
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| 06:28 | <VectorX> well ubuntu will also be used for stuff like gimp and development apps mainly eclipse
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| 06:28 | how would you configure this
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| 06:28 | <muppis> Is win 7 used anything but run those vboxes?
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| 06:29 | <VectorX> yeah, i was planning on using it for my work so photosop cs5, eclipse, dreamweaver etc, electricity got really expensive and im trying to cut down on the machine id be using
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| 06:29 | hehe
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| 06:30 | hence this particular setup
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| 06:30 | i could probably up the ram to 24 or 32
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| 06:30 | <VectorX> for the machine
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| 06:31 | <muppis> With 16 GB of ram I would assing 4 for ltsp, 2 for xp and rest for 7.
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| 06:33 | <VectorX> also with 2 for xp, say if like 10 people connect to rdp, would there performance be affected for the xp users ?
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| 06:33 | s/there/their/
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| 06:34 | say if everyone decides to load up PS and dreamweaver at the same time
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| 06:34 | <muppis> Yes, but then you need 64 bit xp to get more ram for it.
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| 06:34 | <VectorX> yeah i can do that
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| 06:35 | how would i need to configure xp to accomodate that load
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| 06:35 | hdd is a ssd so i think things will be ok there
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| 06:36 | <VectorX> or rather is there some general config rule of thumb for this i can follow
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| 06:38 | <muppis> Just thinking what used software can eat up the resources so would your hardware (ram, cpu, hdd) survive from that.
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| 06:39 | With PS and Dreamweaver I think cpu usage can be more issue than ram.
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| 06:41 | <VectorX> ok, ill look into it
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| 06:42 | also is there some setup config case scenarios, like hardware used and os's etc, i read some of the success stories but not very detailed
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| 06:42 | <muppis> And keep in mind that running in vbox is always slower than real hardware.
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| 06:45 | <VectorX> ok ill try to get this setup and come back, thanks for the information muppis
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| 06:45 | <muppis> I started to think about that xp.. Do you really need that? I mean, can you give a rdp connections to win 7?
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| 06:46 | If you can. you're getting much better performance for everyone.
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| 06:46 | <VectorX> i think there is a issue with licence and win7, where you can only have 1 connection, xp does not have such clause in its agreement ;)
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| 06:46 | <muppis> That came my mind also. :)
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| 06:48 | But what itches me is there is one of those Windowses too much in this scenario. If you can, get rid of it, no matter which one.
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| 06:50 | Because both of those is going to be under heavy use, it can come pain for everyone.
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| 06:51 | Which distro you had in mind for ltsp?
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| 07:00 | <VectorX> muppis what distro do you recomend, i was going to go with ubuntu
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| 07:04 | <muppis> Ubuntu is fine. I was thinking scenario to put Ubuntu as host and both Windowses to kvm or vbox based virtuals. If you only user of win 7 and do it locally, you hardly notice any usability issue in graphic when using local rdp.
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| 07:04 | I used it that way for a while.
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| 07:06 | <VectorX> yeah but since ltsp will just be booting, it should be fine as guest right
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| 07:07 | <muppis> Yes, sure.
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| 17:34 | <vagrantc> !seen alkisg
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| 17:34 | <ltsp`> vagrantc: alkisg was last seen in #ltsp 12 hours, 6 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <alkisg> Ah, it's not in dapper :) http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/dapper/en/man8/sudo.8.html
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| 18:48 | <alkisg> vagrantc: so, got any specs for ltsp-chroot?
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| 18:48 | ltsp-chroot [--swap] nbd | dnsmasq | isc-dhcp? | ???
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| 18:48 | Maybe some options about --proxy in dnsmasq...
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| 18:49 | Maybe an nfs parameter too...
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| 18:49 | In general though, I think it should be ltsp-chroot [option] tool
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| 18:49 | ltsp-config
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| 18:49 | Damn
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| 18:49 | All those were about ltsp-confi
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| 18:49 | g
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| 18:53 | <vagrantc> alkisg: oh, i had a question ... can dnsmasq be configured to do proxydhcp on port 4011, like the PXE spec suggests it should?
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| 18:53 | <alkisg> vagrantc: it's not 1 port, it's 2 ports
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| 18:54 | It's both the 67 dhcp port and 4011
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| 18:54 | But that's only for the second part of the pxe request, the advanced one
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| 18:54 | And dnsmasq doesn't do that part, but in any case 4011 wouldn't be enough
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| 18:54 | <vagrantc> the PXE specs claim that you should be able to run the proxydhcp on the same sever with a separate dhcp server
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| 18:54 | hmmm...
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| 18:55 | <alkisg> At least that's what I think I remember from what I read in the dnsmasq ML some years ago, so they're not very trustworthy
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| 18:55 | <vagrantc> anyways, ltsp-config ...
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| 18:56 | ltsp-config should be able to: enable /etc/nbd-server/conf.d/*.conf (and if needed, /etc/nbd-server/config)
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| 18:57 | it should be able to configure swap independently ... i might just drop a conffile for swap configuration
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| 18:57 | so it should be able to detect if swap is already configured?
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| 18:58 | it should be able to configured NFS exports
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| 18:58 | <alkisg> Well, if nbd-server/config and conf.d/swap.conf are there... swap should be already configured
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| 18:58 | <vagrantc> it should be able to configure dnsmasq for tftp and DHCP independently of one another?
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| 18:59 | <alkisg> Sure, e.g. ltsp-config --no-tftp dnsmasq ?
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| 18:59 | <vagrantc> ltsp-config --service=dnsmasq --options=tftp,dhcp ?
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| 18:59 | <alkisg> Or it could check for common tftp servers and autodetect what's best to do
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| 18:59 | I was thinking more like the bzr command line
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| 18:59 | One command, many options
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| 18:59 | <vagrantc> ah.
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| 19:00 | should it also be able to configure DHCP ?
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| 19:00 | <Hyperbyte> Hey alkisg!
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| 19:00 | <alkisg> Hi Hyperbyte
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| 19:00 | <vagrantc> er, isc-dhcpd?
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| 19:00 | <Hyperbyte> I got my system working nicely with 12.04. :)
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| 19:00 | <alkisg> vagrantc: sure, at least copy the example and set the subnet
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| 19:00 | Hyperbyte: cool!
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| 19:01 | <Hyperbyte> I had lots of numerous strange issues with the new Gnome 3 fallback
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| 19:01 | Keyboard shortcuts not working, not being saved, themes displaying with strange layouts/looks
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| 19:01 | <vagrantc> alkisg: on debian, it would be nice if it could just add an include= line to /etc/dhcp/dhcpd.conf that points to a file we manage
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| 19:01 | <Hyperbyte> Basically, this was because I didn't nuke the previous gnome2 config properly from the home dirs. So this is good to keep in mind.
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| 19:02 | <vagrantc> Hyperbyte: no way, gnome3 behaving wonky? :P
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| 19:02 | <Hyperbyte> After I did that, gnome3 fallback behaved properly. I actually like the dconf configuration system.
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| 19:02 | <vagrantc> alkisg: would it also be more like: ltsp-config <command> [--opt1|--opt2] ?
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| 19:02 | * alkisg doesn't see any real different from gconf | |
| 19:03 | <alkisg> vagrantc: if we use getopt, the options can go either before or after the command
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| 19:03 | <vagrantc> d sorts before g in the romanized alphabet
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| 19:03 | <Hyperbyte> I prefer the multiple profiles overlaying eachother, and also prefer the ini-style configuration over xml.
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| 19:03 | <alkisg> ...that has to be a significant speed improvement :P
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| 19:03 | <vagrantc> alkisg: crazy ordering.
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| 19:03 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: ini-style? isn't dconf binary?
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| 19:04 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, yes and no. It creates a binary database from ini-style config.
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| 19:04 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: from where? Maybe you're talking about the gconf imports?
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| 19:04 | <vagrantc> alkisg: so my ltsp-build-client with VENDOR=Ubuntu failed ... for some reason i can't understand, it ended up failing with the add_mirrors function missing.
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| 19:05 | <Hyperbyte> Try 'dconf dump /' next time you're on Gnome 3, it will dump the entire database in ini-style. Which you can then put in /etc/dconf/db/profile.d directories, to make mandatory settings. Much easier than with Gnome3 and gconftool.
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| 19:05 | <vagrantc> but ubuntu uses the same add_mirrors function that debian uses.
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| 19:05 | Hyperbyte: that does actually sound like an improvement.
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| 19:05 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: do those work in Ubuntu too? I thought they didn't...
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| 19:05 | (the dirs don't exist by default)
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| 19:05 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, no, you have to create the dirs.
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| 19:05 | But they work fine.
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| 19:06 | <alkisg> Ah OK last time I tried they didn't work at all
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| 19:06 | That sounds cool then
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| 19:06 | <Hyperbyte> Basically, all my problems with Gnome3 went away when I properly nuked -all- gnome2 config that was leftover in the home dirs.
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| 19:06 | I suspect lots of people who are trying to upgrade, or use existing home filesystems run into the same problems.
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| 19:06 | <alkisg> !learn lock-gnome3 as Try 'dconf dump /' next time you're on Gnome 3, it will dump the entire database in ini-style. Which you can then put in /etc/dconf/db/profile.d directories, to make mandatory settings. Much easier than with Gnome2 and gconftool.
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| 19:06 | <ltsp`> alkisg: The operation succeeded.
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| 19:07 | <alkisg> bbiab
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| 19:07 | <Hyperbyte> I had one big issue with Gnome3 after I did ^^ that, which was that on dual view, the left/right screens were swapped after login. Very strange.
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| 19:07 | So in LDM screen on the left had left part of the login window, on the right it had right part of the login window.
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| 19:08 | I fixed that with an xrandr command in /etc/xdg/autostart.. doing it from lts.conf didn't seem to work properly... it either messed up things further, didn't work, or froze clients.
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| 19:09 | (I meant to add that after login in LDM left screen had right part, and right screen had left part)
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| 19:09 | I actually configured the displays as mirror view from lts.conf now, so login screen doesn't stretch across displays, and then from /etc/xdg/autostart it's set as proper dualview. I find this quite elegant.
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| 19:10 | Thought it might be useful info to share here though.
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| 19:14 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: .config/monitors.xml
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| 19:14 | It's where gnome monitor settings are saved
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| 19:15 | Maybe you just needed to delete that file
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| 19:15 | Otherwise, there should be no difference between before + after login
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| 19:37 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, I had to nuke the entire .config dir
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| 19:37 | For Gnome3 to work properly.
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| 20:58 | <vagrantc> ltsp-config alkisg --howdy
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| 20:58 | * vagrantc wonders if ltsp-config is an old LTSP 4.x thing | |
| 21:00 | <vagrantc> ah yes, ltspconfig
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| 21:01 | <alkisg> :)
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| 21:02 | Haha it even had a GUI
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| 21:03 | <vagrantc> nbd bugs got uploaded to sid already :)
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| 21:03 | er, fixes
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| 21:03 | <alkisg> Good work Wouter!
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| 21:03 | ltsp-config lts.conf too
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| 21:04 | <vagrantc> ah yes.
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| 21:05 | ltsp-config ltsp-config --waka-waka
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| 21:54 | <vagrantc> NBD_ROOT_NAME appears to be getting set to the device name...
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| 21:54 | <vagrantc> ah, maybe it assumed the order of commandline options.
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| 21:57 | yup. not specifying nbdroot= at the boot prompt results in NBD_ROOT_NAME being set incorrectly.
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| 23:36 | <t0d> I have a 64bit thin client server (Ubuntu 12.04) working quite nicely, I was hoping to convert to a fat client. Not sure where to start, any tips, links? thanks :)
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| 23:46 | fat client server, that is.
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| 23:47 | <stgraber> t0d: I haven't tried fat clients in a while and our usual expert (alkisg) isn't around at the moment, though I believe creating a new chroot using --fat-client (or similar option name) is all you need for a start
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| 23:48 | <vagrantc> or adding the packages to your existing chroot
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| 23:49 | <stgraber> right, assuming we now have an easy way of figuring which packages to add (I doubt it's as simple as just installing ubuntu-desktop)
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| 23:49 | <t0d> Ahh, i see. I have seen many references to alkisg on the net regarding ltsp.
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| 23:49 | <vagrantc> there's good reason for that
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| 23:52 | <t0d> I had a crash course in ltsp last night, it went quite smoothly, and I wasn't very coherent. Got a working production setup served by Proxmox in very little time.
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| 23:54 | I did the single nic setup, with dnsmasq and such. I plan to be (more) sober next time.
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| 23:55 | <t0d> stgraber: --fat-client, great place to start, thanks!
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