IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 20 August 2019 (all times are UTC)
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| 04:41 | <alkisg> OK I think it'll be easier to do it like vagrantc said, regexp for matching the usernames, and not support USER_TO_PASS mapping at all.
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| 04:41 | So users: a1-01, a1-02.., b1-01, b1-02..., should have a common password like "1234", and not their usernames as passwords, and then ltsp.conf would have this:
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| 04:41 | PASSWORDS_FOR_STUDENTS="^[a-z][-0-9]*/cGFzc3dvcmQK"
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| 04:41 | So the documentation would be: PASSWORDS_x is a blank separated list like "regexp1:base64pass1 regexp2:base64pass2" that matches usernames and sets passwords
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| 10:25 | <Hyperbyte> While I do appreciate all feedback you guys have given regarding remote syslog and NBD swap, and while I have learned some new things from it, it doesn't actually help me further.
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| 10:25 | <alkisg> !netconsole
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| 10:25 | <ltsp> netconsole: https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp/wiki/netconsole
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| 10:26 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: this could help ^
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| 10:26 | <Hyperbyte> The problem remains I have a lot of clients completely freezing, while they have 4GB ram. I agree they shouldn't need to swap, but I'm grasping at straws and just want to investigate if that has anything to do with it.
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| 10:26 | <alkisg> It's a "better remote syslog", that works for kernel panics too
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| 10:26 | So you should be able to see if it's ram or graphics driver related etc
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| 10:27 | <Hyperbyte> AFAIK one of the most common reasons any Linux workstation just locks up completely, is running out of RAM. And people have mentioned it seems to be related to how many tabs they have open in their browser.
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| 10:27 | * Hyperbyte reads :-) | |
| 10:28 | <Hyperbyte> As extra info, I have asked people to press ctrl+alt+f1 and ctrl+alt+f2 to look for any messages if their workstation freezes, but they said the workstations don't react to the keys even
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| 10:28 | <alkisg> Sounds like kernel panic all right
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| 10:28 | It could also be hardware; e.g. temperature can lock CPUs
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| 10:29 | <Hyperbyte> I actually also, besides ram, suspect network cables. I haven't ran the network cables myself and they're not the most professional installation, to say it mildly.
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| 10:29 | <alkisg> If you're using NFS, cables shouldn't matter
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| 10:29 | <Hyperbyte> How do fat clients behave if their network connection is lost?
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| 10:29 | <alkisg> If you're using NBD, they do
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| 10:29 | <Hyperbyte> NBD, Ubuntu 18 default.
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| 10:29 | <alkisg> I wrote in the mailing list that it's recommended to use squashfs over nfs
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| 10:29 | And many people did switch
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| 10:30 | (in ltsp5; while the new ltsp19 doesn't even support nbd)
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| 10:30 | <Hyperbyte> I haven't made any concious decision about it. Just the default.
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| 10:30 | <alkisg> OK; try to change it, it may help
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| 10:30 | <Hyperbyte> Gladly.
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| 10:30 | <alkisg> E.g. if you play with cables and nbd, you get kernel panics
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| 10:30 | if you play with cables and nfs, you hang iowaits, which get properly resolved when you re plug the cable
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| 10:31 | <Hyperbyte> I think thin clients just go on right?
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| 10:31 | With nbd, if you pull the cable shortly.
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| 10:31 | <alkisg> ssh and xorg usually die
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| 10:31 | <Hyperbyte> I mean, the main OS chrashes, but the remote X session stays active. At least that's what I've found.
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| 10:31 | <alkisg> nbd can survive for a bit, or can get kernel panic
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| 10:31 | nfs survives
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| 10:31 | <Hyperbyte> Anyway. How do I switch? :-)
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| 10:32 | <alkisg> Hrm let me find it...
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| 10:32 | !nfs
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| 10:32 | <ltsp> nfs: to enable NFS home directories for localapps and fat clients, install nfs-kernel-server on your server, nfs-common on your client (don't forget ltsp-update-image), and put this in lts.conf: FSTAB_1="server:/home /home nfs defaults,nolock 0 0"
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| 10:32 | <alkisg> !nbd
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| 10:32 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'nbd', but I do know about these similar topics: 'disable-nbd-proxy', 'nbd-proxy', 'nbd-compression', 'quick-nbd-tests', 'nbd-client', 'nbd-server-bug', 'nbd-trusty-bug', 'nbd-client-breaks-nm', 'nbd-bug', 'nbd-checkupdate'
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| 10:32 | <Hyperbyte> I'm running LTSP 5.18.12
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| 10:32 | <alkisg> !squashfs
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| 10:32 | <ltsp> Error: "squashfs" is not a valid command.
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| 10:32 | <alkisg> !nfs-
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| 10:32 | <ltsp> I do not know about 'nfs-', but I do know about these similar topics: 'nfs'
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| 10:32 | <Hyperbyte> Is that the right version?
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| 10:32 | I added ts.sch.gr/ppa/ubuntu ppa
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| 10:32 | <alkisg> 5.18.12+t201905250652~ubuntu18.04.1 from the ppa
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| 10:33 | <Hyperbyte> Yep ok, that's the one.
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| 10:33 | Should I remote ltspfsd and ltspfsd-core packages? Those are version 1.5.2 still
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| 10:34 | Rest is all 5.18.12+etc
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| 10:35 | <alkisg> You don't need to do anything specific as long as you have the ppa and apt updated
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| 10:35 | <Hyperbyte> OK good.
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| 10:35 | Then on to squashfs/nfs :-)
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| 10:37 | <alkisg> Meh, ltsp-discuss hides its content very well :D
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| 10:38 | !learn squashfs-over-nfs as https://sourceforge.net/p/ltsp/mailman/message/36669125/
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| 10:38 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 10:46 | <Hyperbyte> From that, you say to modify /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/amd64/pxelinux.cfg/default lines 13-14
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| 10:46 | Can't I just change "default ltsp-NBD" to "default ltsp-NFS" ?
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| 10:50 | Or maybe change the default via /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf ?
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| 11:22 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: no, these won't work, as "squashfs-over-nfs" isn't the same as "nfs", it's a new entry that doesn't exist in pxelinux.cfg/default
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| 12:06 | <Hyperbyte> Okay.
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| 12:18 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, what happens when you run ltsp-update-image and there are logged in clients? I presume the file handles to the old image will stay active and the old file will remain active until the last client logs out? And only new ones use the new image?
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| 12:18 | <alkisg> Right
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| 12:18 | And if you delete the old file, it disappears but still wastes space until the last user disconnects
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| 12:20 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, okay
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| 12:20 | Also, your trick of removing the 'default' symlink doesn't work
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| 12:20 | <alkisg> You might have misunderstood it, it works
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| 12:21 | <Hyperbyte> ltsp-update-kernels re-creates the symlink and in fact deleted my changes to "default". I suppose I could lsattr +i it
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| 12:21 | <alkisg> You need to copy ltsp to default
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| 12:21 | No edit ltsp and delete the symlink
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| 12:21 | *not
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| 12:21 | <Hyperbyte> I did. rm -f default cp ltsp default nano default make changes, save... ltsp-update-kernels everything is back to what it was.
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| 12:23 | <alkisg> if [ ! -f "$tftpboot/$name/pxelinux.cfg/default" ]; then
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| 12:23 | ln -sf ltsp "$tftpboot/$name/pxelinux.cfg/default"
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| 12:23 | fi
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| 12:23 | This clearly shows that the symlink only happens if the default file isn't there
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| 12:23 | Although, it might get deleted if it still has the "regenerated" notice :)
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| 12:23 | <Hyperbyte> See PM for link with terminal output
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| 12:24 | Well there you go. :-D
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| 12:24 | Nope. Removed the "re-generated" comments on top, still gets regenerated
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| 12:24 | <alkisg> In all of the file
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| 12:24 | Not just on top
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| 12:24 | <Hyperbyte> Hmm
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| 12:25 | Yep, that seems to be it.
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| 12:26 | :-)
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| 16:19 | dietrich is now known as enaut | |
| 16:21 | <enaut> hey all, I noticed with the new ltsp: ltsp --help does not work (yet).
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| 16:22 | <alkisg> enaut: it does; what's the exact command?
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| 16:22 | <alkisg> It's: ltsp --help applet, NOT: ltsp applet --help
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| 16:22 | Or plain ltsp --help
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| 16:24 | <enaut> https://gist.github.com/enaut/421f2cb7ec38c43a126d6224752714c3
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| 16:24 | thats what it does.
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| 16:24 | <alkisg> enaut: you copied it without installing it?
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| 16:24 | <enaut> same without sudo
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| 16:25 | <alkisg> Did you install the .deb package, or just copied the directory?
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| 16:25 | <enaut> no I added the ppa according to the install page
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| 16:26 | <alkisg> Hrm then it sounds like the man pages are not registered correctly
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| 16:26 | The --help does man ltsp | grep something
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| 16:26 | enaut: thanks, I'll check it and upload a fix tomorrow
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| 16:27 | enaut: wait, are you trying this on the server or on a client?
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| 16:27 | <enaut> alkisg: its on the server.
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| 16:28 | <alkisg> OK, then yeah man is broken; I'll fix it tomorrow
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| 16:28 | <enaut> man ltsp does not work either
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| 16:30 | <ogra> told ya ... you should be using woman pages, they are more graceful than man pages ;)
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| 16:30 | <alkisg> ogra: no no no they're too chatty. You'd ask "how do I update the image" and they'll tell you about all the neighborhood chit chat before admitting that they don't know what you're talking about
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| 16:31 | <ogra> LOL
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| 16:33 | * vagrantc facepalms | |
| 16:34 | <alkisg> enaut: ok got it; in ltsp.manpages I have the old man/ path instead of the new docs/ path
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| 16:34 | <enaut> ok
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| 16:34 | <alkisg> So they're not even included in the .deb package
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| 16:35 | ty
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| 16:35 | <enaut> thanks for fixing
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| 16:36 | <alkisg> enaut: I'm sending a build to the ppa, it should arrive in 10 minutes or so...
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| 16:36 | <enaut> np
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| 16:39 | <alkisg> enaut: which desktop environment are you using btw?
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| 16:39 | <enaut> default ubuntu... so gnome3
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| 16:40 | <alkisg> OK great, I'm testing more with mate, and only a bit with buster-gnome/bionic-gnome, so it's nice to have someone test a lot with gnome too
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| 16:42 | <enaut> I've got 2 weeks till end of summer holidays until then I'm testing if I use the new one in production (classes age 16 to 17).
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| 16:43 | <alkisg> enaut: if you need something that is not in the ltsp.conf man page, tell me to put it in the priority list
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| 16:44 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, I've heard back that clients reboot successfully. Presumably they're using squashfs/nfs then, but I can't access the clients remotely and haven't seen if they are actually using squashfs or not. So to be continued. I'll let you know if this fixes the freeze issues.
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| 16:44 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: vnc to server, epoptes to clients. Old tricks ;)
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| 16:44 | * alkisg is actually using reverse vnc over ssh | |
| 16:45 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, I actually have an openvpn to this installation active here at all times.
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| 16:45 | <alkisg> Then it should be really easy to get access to the clients
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| 16:45 | <Hyperbyte> I could just start vncserver on the clients, or enable sshd, but I just haven't done it. :-)
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| 16:46 | <alkisg> !epoptes
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| 16:46 | <ltsp> epoptes: Epoptes is a computer lab administration and monitoring tool. It works on Ubuntu and Debian based labs with LTSP or non-LTSP servers, thin and fat clients, standalone workstations, NX clients etc. More info: http://www.epoptes.org
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| 16:46 | <alkisg> Why not epoptes? We developed it just for that
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| 16:46 | And it only needs 2 MB RAM, extra light
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| 16:46 | * Hyperbyte shrugs | |
| 16:47 | <Hyperbyte> I haven't tried it.
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| 16:48 | <alkisg> Your loss ;)
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| 16:49 | <enaut> I'm currently looking for the /etc/ltsp/ltsp-update-image.excludes... I think it's /etc/ltsp/image.excludes now?
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| 16:50 | <alkisg> enaut: not exactly; now it's in /usr/share..., and you only create /etc/ltsp/image.excludes if you want to remove entries from the default one
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| 16:50 | While if you want to add entires, I have a local file... let me see the man page...
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| 16:51 | /etc/ltsp/image-local.excludes
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| 16:51 | And the upstream one is in /usr/share/ltsp/server/image/image.excludes
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| 16:52 | This allows us to send new ltsp versions with more entries, while respecting the local user additional entries
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| 16:52 | <enaut> ah ok so image.excludes would overwrite the default excludes...
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| 16:52 | <vagrantc> but to remove entries you have to overwrite all of them?
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| 16:52 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 16:53 | The main idea is that usually people want to add, not remove; if one wants to remove, ok, let him do what we did in ltsp5
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| 16:53 | <vagrantc> not worth adding an .includes ?
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| 16:53 | <alkisg> How's that?
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| 16:54 | <vagrantc> rather than overwriting all the defaults, the ability to override only specific things
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| 16:54 | <alkisg> How?
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| 16:54 | <vagrantc> adds a lot of complexity, though
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| 16:54 | <alkisg> How can you tell mksquashfs "omit line 5 from the .excludes file?"
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| 16:54 | Yeah I couldn't think of an easy interface for that
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| 16:54 | <vagrantc> worst case, by regenerating the excludes file
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| 16:54 | <enaut> I wouldn't do that...
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| 16:54 | * vagrantc nods | |
| 16:54 | <alkisg> Yes, but how would the user define that he wants to omit line 5
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| 16:55 | Since it's a regexp, not something easy to define an override for
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| 16:55 | <vagrantc> alkisg: you don't do it by line, you do it by files
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| 16:55 | <enaut> if someone wants to include he can just copy it over
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| 16:55 | * alkisg isn't sure what vagrantc has in mind | |
| 16:55 | <alkisg> We ship 20 lines; we'd change that to 20 files?
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| 16:55 | <vagrantc> no
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| 16:56 | rsync has an option to both exclude and include files, for example
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| 16:56 | <alkisg> vagrantc: ah, but mksquashfs doesn't
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| 16:56 | Sure I'd love it if the syntax was rsync-compatible, but it isn't
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| 16:57 | <vagrantc> sounds like it would be more complex that worth it, but you coudl have an includes that removes matching lines from the excludes.
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| 16:57 | <alkisg> (07:55:15 PM) enaut: if someone wants to include he can just copy it over ==> to include, one would create a new /etc/ltsp/image-local.excludes that would be used *in addition* to the /usr file
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| 16:57 | <vagrantc> more complex than worth it
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| 16:57 | <alkisg> vagrantc: yeah a regex that matches regex'es... too complicated
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| 16:58 | * vagrantc nods | |
| 16:59 | <vagrantc> just prefer to avoid overwriting defaults when possible; only specifying the "diff" between the defaults and what the end-user wants leads to less maintenance for the sysadmin
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| 16:59 | <vagrantc> but only if it's simple to implement :)
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| 16:59 | <alkisg> vagrantc: that's exactly what ltsp19 improves upon ltsp5 :)
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| 16:59 | <vagrantc> indeed
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| 16:59 | <alkisg> ah but for additions only, not removals
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| 17:00 | As it's hard to implement for removals :)
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| 17:00 | <vagrantc> right
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| 17:01 | <alkisg> OK jogging time, later... enaut, I think the ppa is ready, update + test man/--help if you want
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| 17:09 | <enaut> alkisg: works now thank you!
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| 18:40 | <alkisg> enaut: great, thank you too
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| 18:44 | <enaut> alkisg... I opened a pull request... I think that is how it was intended?
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| 18:44 | * alkisg reads... | |
| 18:45 | <enaut> before my image-local.excludes were overwriting the default excludes.
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| 18:46 | <alkisg> enaut: the idea is that we want to pass up to two files to mksquashfs,
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| 18:46 | one is the upstream, and one is the local, which adds (and not overwrites) the upstream one
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| 18:47 | Now, the upstream one can be completely overriden with a third file, /etc/ltsp/image.excludes
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| 18:47 | So you're saying that /etc/ltsp/image-local.excludes was overriding /usr..?
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| 18:48 | Let me sum up: /etc/ltsp/image.excludes overrides /usr/share/ltsp/server/image/image.excludes
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| 18:48 | while /etc/ltsp/image-local.excludes has additional content and does not override anything
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| 18:49 | Is that not the case?
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| 18:50 | <enaut> with my patch that is the case... without it image-local.excludes overwrites upstream...
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| 18:50 | <alkisg> OK, ty, reading the code again...
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| 18:52 | <enaut> its "if ef_local does not exist set ef_upstream else unset it"
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| 18:52 | <alkisg> Yeah my code there doesn't make much sense, I think I wanted to override it and then I changed my mind or something; the "else" in the end doesn't do anything if we accept your (very logical) patch
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| 18:53 | elif [ -f "$_APPLET_DIR/image.excludes" ]; then ==> might make a bit sense, but it's not worth it either
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| 18:55 | <enaut> bash conditionals are one of the reasons why I avoid bash scripts
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| 18:55 | <alkisg> enaut: can you update your pull request to this, so that I just merge it online? http://paste.debian.net/1096726/
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| 18:57 | <enaut> sure
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| 18:57 | <alkisg> ty
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| 18:57 | <vagrantc> first pull request for ltsp19? :)
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| 18:57 | <alkisg> Yey! :D
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| 18:59 | enaut: also I think "override" is more suitable than "overwrite", although my english isn't to be trusted much...
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| 19:00 | OK now let me remember how to merge online.. :D
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| 19:00 | <vagrantc> it's not just a click?
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| 19:02 | <enaut> alkisg: you are absolutely right about the override...
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| 19:03 | <alkisg> Yey, "squashed merge" done :)
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| 19:03 | Ty enaut
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| 19:04 | <enaut> good job and thanks...
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| 19:04 | <alkisg> enaut: did you have a look at man ltsp.conf? Are you missing something specific that I should work on first?
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| 19:05 | Currently I just implemented autologins in lightdm/gdm3/sddm; I'm polishing the docs about them and pushing...
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| 19:05 | Then I think I'll work on livecd booting, to be able to easily try out any distro/version/desktop environment
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| 19:06 | <enaut> alkisg: I didn't really proofread... I just skimmed and looked for the information. I did not find the image-local.excludes files which is why I asked here and looked at the sourcecode
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| 19:06 | <alkisg> True I didn't document that one
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| 19:08 | <enaut> I may be able to look at the texts tomorrow with a clearer head
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| 19:08 | <alkisg> enaut: you're now an official contributor to ltsp! https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp/graphs/contributors
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| 19:09 | github is fun :)
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| 19:09 | <enaut> yeay and ltsp doubled its contributors in just 3 days - very healthy project ;)
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| 19:09 | <alkisg> Hehe
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| 19:11 | Btw for some reason debian doesn't show a user list in lightdm. I'm thinking to unconditionally enable that; is there a reason not to show a user list? The manual list will also be displayed
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| 19:12 | greeter-hide-users=false instead of the debian default true
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| 19:12 | ...all other DMs show the list anyway
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| 19:15 | <enaut> alkisg: you should make it optional. gdm is very strange if the list grows beyond the screen. Besides my students don't need to know there are other users. So I'd opt for showing no userlist in all environments
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| 19:16 | So I prefer to 1. enter username 2. enter password
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| 19:16 | <alkisg> Hmm, here's it's the opposite, in primary schools it's nice to see only the "a07 b07 c07" users in the pc07 client, so that they just click and log in without typing anything,
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| 19:16 | <enaut> yep
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| 19:16 | <alkisg> the "enter username/password" of course is there,
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| 19:17 | I'll need to see if I can hide the user list in gdm and sddm, as the default is to show it
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| 19:18 | <enaut> would be great if ltsp would do it for me, as that was the next thing I wanted to do.
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| 19:18 | <alkisg> enaut: maybe you can prepare the gdm3 pull request while I prepare sddm ;)
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| 19:19 | Ah I'll need to push first; which will be tomorrow morning
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| 19:22 | Currently I allow passing extra DM configuration with these parameters: LIGHTDM_CONF="greeter-hide-users=true"
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| 19:22 | So one would just put GDM3_CONF=... in ltsp.conf, to disable the list
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| 19:22 | Maybe that's enough...
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| 19:28 | <enaut> I don't know if I can find the time to do it as new dad I can't schedule anything :(
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| 19:28 | <alkisg> Oooh, sure, enjoy your baby! It's what matters most
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