IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 14 April 2008 (all times are UTC)
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| 03:48 | * gvy is back (gone 62:27:04) | |
| 03:49 | <gvy> mornin'! :)
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| 04:26 | <debayan> say there are more than one ltsp servers on the network.... and one of them is operating at its maximum capacity, can it then "transfer" the thin client to the second server? Is this what a DHCP helper does? I mean a load balancing sort of arrangement... does ldminfod help in this regard?
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| 06:33 | <Ryudo> mornin gvy :D
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| 06:34 | <gvy> debayan, looks like you want load balancing, google for ltsp plus that
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| 06:34 | Ryudo, morn'
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| 06:34 | <Ryudo> :D hehe gvy i test the new beta version of mozilla firefox
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| 06:34 | <debayan> gvy: cool
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| 06:34 | <Ryudo> FF 3 Beta 5 and openoffice 2.4
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| 06:34 | <gvy> debayan, afaih it's not ported to 5.x (ldm*) yet, just 4.2
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| 06:34 | Ryudo, all stable, no deadlocks? :)
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| 06:34 | <debayan> ohh
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| 06:34 | <Ryudo> the problem wich pixmaps persist
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| 06:35 | <gvy> Ryudo, well, then i'm sorry to say i was right
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| 06:35 | <debayan> gvy: who does the porting work?
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| 06:35 | <Ryudo> all deadlockable ehehe no stable :{
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| 06:35 | <gvy> oooo-o-ogra! that was a kernel fix needed :)
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| 06:35 | debayan, dunno... i'm only catching up myself last year
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| 06:35 | <ogra> intresting that i get different reports from hardy users
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| 06:35 | <gvy> Ryudo, well, i'll probably do a mini iso this week
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| 06:35 | <Ryudo> yes we need a kernel fix :(
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| 06:35 | <debayan> gvy: ok thanx
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| 06:36 | <ogra> anyway, way to busy to deal with that ...
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| 06:36 | <gvy> Ryudo, is it hardy for you?
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| 06:36 | <Ryudo> i'm using feisty
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| 06:36 | * ogra goes back to care for the release | |
| 06:36 | <Ryudo> feisty 7.04 :D
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| 06:36 | <gvy> ogra, yup, +1 todo for you at best; luck with release :)
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| 06:36 | Ryudo, then re-read the log what he told ya
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| 06:36 | <Ryudo> log ? where ?
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| 06:37 | <gvy> you better set up your irc client to log the conversations... so you have answers already told to the questions you already asked at least :)
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| 06:37 | for unix xchat it's ~/.xchat*/xchatlogs/*
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| 06:38 | if enabled (not by default) :-/
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| 06:38 | * gvy is away: to care for release, too | |
| 06:40 | <Ryudo> its not enable :(
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| 06:41 | the pixmaps bug at the moment no the fix correct ? sorry gvy my english is not good :{
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| 06:41 | <gvy> Ryudo, np, i'm not native english squeaker too
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| 06:41 | Ryudo, as i told you we _do_ have the fix, and i gave you the iso link :)
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| 06:42 | if you can wait a few days, i'm gonna to build smaller iso this week
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| 06:42 | and not school specific
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| 06:42 | <Ryudo> :D ohh cool i wait for this !
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| 06:43 | gvy
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| 06:44 | you know if ltsp 4.2 have problens wich pixmaps cache ?
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| 06:47 | <gvy> Ryudo, it should use less ram and there _is_ xramperc there
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| 06:47 | so the problem is there but you have less chances to catch it
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| 06:47 | <Ryudo> xramperc close app correct ? this not solve the problem ehehe :{
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| 06:49 | <Ryudo> hummm
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| 06:55 | <gvy> Ryudo, sorta
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| 06:56 | <Ryudo> hi
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| 06:56 | <gvy> "sorta == sort of"
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| 07:24 | <Ryudo> gvy
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| 07:24 | ooo developers reply my question
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| 07:25 | <gvy> and? :)
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| 07:27 | <Ryudo> you see ?
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| 07:27 | "I fear I have no immediate solution for this."
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| 07:27 | :(
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| 07:27 | <gloubiboulga> hello, is this the right place for ltsp help ?
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| 07:28 | I have used the debian/etch version for some times
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| 07:28 | and tried the backported version to get printer support and new features
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| 07:28 | but it doesn't mount my nfs share
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| 07:28 | it continuously retries
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| 07:29 | the nfs server is ok (I tried manually)
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| 07:29 | the client gets a network config (every two seconds)
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| 07:29 | but never mounts the nfs share
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| 07:30 | it eventually stops trying and drops me to a minimal shell
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| 07:30 | what can I do to debug that ?
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| 07:31 | anybody here ?
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| 07:31 | ping ?
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| 07:32 | <laga> patience is a virtue
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| 07:32 | <gloubiboulga> :-)
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| 07:32 | I thought I was alone
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| 07:35 | <Ryudo> gvy
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| 07:35 | you see ?
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| 07:40 | <cliebow> gloubiboulga, what does showmount -e show on server?
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| 07:44 | <gloubiboulga> cliebow: Export list for phallompe:
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| 07:44 | /opt/ltsp *
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| 07:44 | | |
| 07:45 | * cliebow cliebow has senior moment.. | |
| 07:47 | <gloubiboulga> cliebow: never mind, I found it, /etc/hosts was notconfigured on the server
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| 07:47 | <cliebow> gloubiboulga, could the network card be unsupported in initramfs
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| 07:47 | ohh cool!
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| 07:48 | <gloubiboulga> cool cool, two days to find that stupid mistake...
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| 07:48 | :-)
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| 07:48 | <cliebow> nfs can be really whiny...
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| 07:48 | <gloubiboulga> I don't know why ltsp couldn't mount it and another host could
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| 07:48 | <ogra> how can you install a system without proper /etc/hosts ?
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| 07:48 | <Q-FUNK> cliebow: what? you found found your golden age club membership card? :-P
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| 07:48 | <cliebow> cant remember where i left it
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| 07:48 | <gloubiboulga> ogra: I don't know what happend, but it was empty
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| 07:48 | <ogra> weird, d-i should have filled it
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| 07:48 | <Q-FUNK> heh
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| 07:49 | <gloubiboulga> ogra: it's a xen virtual machine,but everything else works on the network part, so I didn't think about it
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| 07:49 | and even other "normal" machines could mount nfs shares
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| 07:50 | so I didn't check anything on the server
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| 07:50 | <ogra> well, then your xen build script should have cared :)
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| 07:50 | <gloubiboulga> sure
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| 07:50 | xen-tools still need some massaging :-)
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| 07:50 | <ogra> (unless you just bootstrapped whithough configuring anything, but then you will run into more probs anyway)
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| 07:51 | <gloubiboulga> no no no
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| 07:51 | it's a full blown instance
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| 07:51 | and everything *should* be configured properly
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| 07:51 | <ogra> yeah, then it sounds like a bugreport against xen-tools :)
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| 07:52 | <gloubiboulga> right now ltsp in my emergency since my regular application server died
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| 07:52 | * ogra is happy ubuntu has jeos so he doesnt have to care :) | |
| 07:52 | <gloubiboulga> but xen is on my list :-)
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| 07:53 | now back to fun, I have to find why the X server doesn't start well :-)
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| 07:54 | colmar has joined #ltsp | |
| 07:54 | <colmar> hi
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| 07:54 | there are news about LTSP in the incoming ubuntu release?
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| 07:55 | <Ryudo> ogra
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| 07:55 | <laga> it's gonna rock ;)
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| 07:55 | <Ryudo> morning :D
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| 07:55 | i send one email to OOo developers
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| 07:56 | and i found ansers to my questions
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| 07:57 | <colmar> laga: :) I mean, news about ldm (performances) or about local media (floppy and CD recorders..)
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| 07:57 | <Ryudo> colmar how your terminals config ?
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| 07:58 | processor mem etc ?
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| 07:58 | <colmar> P 200 64 MB
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| 07:59 | It seems that hardy uses 5.0.40 as version of ltsp and gutsy 5.0.39.. there aren't many changes then:)
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| 07:59 | <laga> colmar: who says that? :)
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| 07:59 | <Ryudo> colmar your users use Ooo ?
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| 07:59 | <laga> colmar: read the changelog in /usr/share/docs/ltsp-server/
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| 08:00 | <Ryudo> Impress Ooo
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| 08:00 | ?
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| 08:01 | <colmar> laga: yes but not on ltsp, just on thinstation:) but I'll switch soon
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| 08:01 | <Ryudo> locall app O_O ?
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| 08:02 | i use ooo here ... and this is terminal freeze monster killer :D
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| 08:03 | <colmar> Ryudo: no remote, and it freezees too
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| 08:03 | :)
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| 08:03 | I can use writer but not impress
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| 08:03 | <Ryudo> OMFG
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| 08:03 | im not alone in this via crusis
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| 08:03 | <colmar> or I can use impress but I can't do presentation
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| 08:03 | just writing
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| 08:04 | <Ryudo> colmar i send email to developers Ooo
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| 08:05 | <Ryudo> look in pvt
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| 08:05 | * colmar looks into his pants | |
| 08:06 | * laga sprays colmar with water | |
| 08:06 | <colmar> :P
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| 08:06 | Ryudo: I didn't see anything in my pvt
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| 08:06 | (OMG)
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| 08:06 | <Ryudo> | |
| 08:06 | I think I need put 256 or 512 on each terminal, turning a fatclient
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| 08:07 | <Ryudo> | |
| 08:07 | I am sad and disappointed
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| 08:08 | <mhterres> Ryudo: that is not just the memory that makes a computer a fat client :-)
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| 08:08 | memory is just one piece
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| 08:09 | <Ryudo> Não ingles nãooooo
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| 08:09 | :{
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| 08:10 | <colmar> Ryudo: have you enough server memory?
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| 08:10 | <Ryudo> The Truth is ... A terminal with 64 mb is notcapable to running Openoffice (impress) and firefox
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| 08:10 | <mhterres> hmmm
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| 08:11 | <Ryudo> i have AMD Atlhon 3700+ 4 GB DDR
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| 08:11 | 2 x 80 GB SATA II
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| 08:11 | the problem is not my server .... is the alocation of pixmaps in my temrinals (low memory)
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| 08:11 | <colmar> Ryudo: and have you tried with a laptop with 1Gb of RAM as thin client? I done and impress freezes again
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| 08:12 | <Ryudo> AHAUAUHAHUHUAHUAUHAAUHUHAAUHHUAUHA
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| 08:12 | OMFG really ?
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| 08:12 | <colmar> yes
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| 08:12 | try it
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| 08:12 | <Ryudo> oh man this is a big problem
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| 08:12 | <colmar> I think is a network/X.org problem
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| 08:13 | have u a 100Mb lan?
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| 08:14 | <Ryudo> yes
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| 08:15 | | |
| 08:15 | I have swapped my switchs and the problem does not solve
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| 08:17 | This is a critical problem, which has not yet found solution ... I think I will return the use of windows 98 on my terminal:)
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| 08:18 | <colmar> luck you
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| 08:18 | lucky
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| 08:19 | btw isn't a LTSP problem
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| 08:19 | 'cause I've the same on thinstation
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| 08:19 | I suppose it's an X.org problem
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| 08:20 | <Ryudo> it is a Xorg problem
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| 08:20 | <colmar> uh?
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| 08:21 | how you can say that
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| 08:21 | <Ryudo> http://www.mille-xterm.org/en/Terminal_Memory_Usage
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| 08:21 | pay attention eheheh
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| 08:21 | <Ryudo> gadi morrrrning :D
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| 08:22 | this arcticle explain the problem colmar
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| 08:22 | http://www.mille-xterm.org/en/Terminal_Memory_Usage
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| 08:22 | The solution is simple, so programs like ooo and FF stop doing cache pixmaps in memory of the terminal
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| 08:23 | <ogra> colmar, thats a two bladed sword :) its xorg allowing to use more ram than available as well as oo.o claiming pixmap cache where none is available anymore
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| 08:23 | ikonia has quit IRC | |
| 08:24 | <ogra> most of the oo.o and firefox parts of that bug got fixed (not all though as it seems)
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| 08:24 | <colmar> so?
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| 08:24 | <Ryudo> ogra it not true
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| 08:24 | <colmar> I don't want to know the problem, I want the solution!:P
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| 08:24 | :D
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| 08:25 | <Ryudo> i test the openoffice 2.4 and Firefox 3 beta 5
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| 08:25 | <Ryudo> NOT HAS FIXED
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| 08:25 | i send email to developer of ooo
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| 08:25 | and he said
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| 08:25 | <ogra> Ryudo, read what i wrote before shouting please
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| 08:25 | <Ryudo> Hi,
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| 08:25 | <Ryudo> the fix concerned a leak (some pixmaps were not freed that are now). However in this case it seems that simply the Xserver runs out of resources. If OOo is to do anything about that we would need to teach applications to release their bitmaps earlier. Which will cause a performance problem when scrolling a documents containing many images. I fear I have no immediate solution for this.
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| 08:25 | <Ryudo> Kind regards, pl
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| 08:25 | <colmar> ogra: do you know if there is a work around?
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| 08:26 | <ogra> colmar, as i said parts were fixed (as you can see in teh oo.o response Ryudo just posted)
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| 08:26 | ikonia_ is now known as ikonia | |
| 08:26 | <ogra> where they are not fixed i fear there is no work around yet until oo.o comes up with something
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| 08:26 | <colmar> W abiword:)
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| 08:26 | <Ryudo> the impress still freezing :D
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| 08:27 | the solution is
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| 08:27 | not use FF
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| 08:27 | <ogra> colmar, doesnt provide presentations
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| 08:27 | <Ryudo> use opera !
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| 08:27 | opera dont have problens wich pixmaps !
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| 08:27 | <ogra> the pixmap fix seems to affect writer only
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| 08:27 | <colmar> maybe the applied the patch just to writer
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| 08:27 | Q-FUNK has quit IRC | |
| 08:27 | <ogra> (where the pixmap bug was actually found initially)
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| 08:28 | colmar, migh be, ask oo.o
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| 08:28 | <colmar> the dev team of oo.o isn't too responsive..
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| 08:28 | <ogra> it not an ltsp problem
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| 08:28 | *it's
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| 08:28 | <Ryudo> i know
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| 08:28 | <ogra> nothing we can do about apart from offering the XRAMPERC variable to avoid the hard freeze
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| 08:28 | <Ryudo> this is a problem of software
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| 08:29 | <ogra> and thats what we do since gutsy
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| 08:29 | <colmar> ogra: XRAMPREC?
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| 08:29 | <ogra> colmar, it limits the amount of ram X has available
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| 08:29 | <Ryudo> Ogra you think if I assign more 256MB on each temrinal the problem solve?
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| 08:29 | <ogra> so the kernels oom scheduler doesnt kick in
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| 08:30 | that kills the app requiring so much ram but leaves the rest of the desktop and client alone
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| 08:30 | <colmar> I filled a bug a year ago about openoffice base and ODBC and the problem is still there.. and it had many confirmations by other ppl..
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| 08:30 | <ogra> Ryudo, no
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| 08:30 | <colmar> ogra: this is good
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| 08:30 | <Ryudo> I did some tests with the xrestop and presentation(impress) are consuming 135 mb O_o omfg
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| 08:30 | <ogra> Ryudo, it will make it occur less often but wont fix anything
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| 08:31 | <Ryudo> :(
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| 08:31 | <colmar> at least it doesn't freezes the client
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| 08:31 | I prefer to see my openoffice disappear instead that having my client sleeping like a child
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| 08:32 | <ogra> yeah
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| 08:32 | <Ryudo> | |
| 08:32 | Not freezing the client, but it can be said that you not use impress anymore
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| 08:32 | :D
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| 08:32 | <ogra> depends how graphics intense your persentations are :)
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| 08:33 | <Ryudo> 117 k presetation for exemple
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| 08:33 | 65 mb
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| 08:33 | <ogra> compressed ...
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| 08:33 | <Ryudo> on xrestop
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| 08:33 | <colmar> in fact
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| 08:33 | <Ryudo> :{
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| 08:33 | <colmar> btw isn't a good idea to use impress on network...
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| 08:33 | <Ryudo> | |
| 08:33 | Detail, my terminal has only 64 mb
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| 08:33 | :)
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| 08:33 | <colmar> it will cause a big network load
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| 08:34 | <ogra> worst case you could try running MSOffice in wine ... (but make sure to have proper multiseat licenses)
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| 08:34 | <Ryudo> The good wishes to provide a suite of applications of high quality as is the openoffice
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| 08:35 | omg msoffice dont make pixmaps !
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| 08:35 | good idea
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| 08:35 | :D
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| 08:35 | other good idea is ...
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| 08:35 | use windows 98 again
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| 08:35 | :(
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| 08:35 | <ogra> not really
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| 08:36 | you will have to care for a whole bunch of machines instead of only one
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| 08:36 | <Ryudo> Before everything works ogra .... Today only hear complaints of users ... Frezee frezee frezee
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| 08:37 | <ogra> i know, you hand them directly through to the channel :P
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| 08:37 | <Ryudo> thats is the true
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| 08:37 | i like ltsp
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| 08:37 | but developers of FF and OOO
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| 08:37 | need help us
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| 08:37 | :{
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| 08:38 | <ogra> well, ff3 is known to work well in hardy, i didnt have any reports of crashers yet
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| 08:38 | (but there might also be xorg fixes, not sure which side helped here)
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| 08:38 | <Ryudo> ogra you can test here ?
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| 08:38 | use xrestop and open a cmplex web site
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| 08:38 | wich many figures
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| 08:39 | look
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| 08:39 | http://www.carteretcountyschools.org/bms/teacherwebs/sdavenport/artgallery6.htm
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| 08:40 | terminal killer test :D
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| 08:40 | open this web site in your Firefox 3 Beta 5
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| 08:40 | Q-FUNK has joined #ltsp | |
| 08:40 | <Ryudo> and cry :(
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| 08:40 | <ogra> no, i wont
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| 08:40 | i know the page
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| 08:41 | and dont have the time to wait until it filled my disk cache
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| 08:41 | <Ryudo> if this page crash my browser ... the problem has not solved correct ?
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| 08:41 | HUAuhauh :{
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| 08:41 | or the webpage has a bug ?
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| 08:45 | <ogra> the webpage has 200M of jpegs
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| 08:45 | indeed that buggy
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| 08:45 | *thats
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| 08:45 | 2600000 359 224 1 128 316 59018K 22K 59040K 27599 Mrs. Davenport's Web - Mozilla Firefox 3 Beta 5
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| 08:45 | 60M
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| 08:45 | (from xrestop)
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| 08:46 | <Ryudo> ok
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| 08:46 | <ogra> thats actually not bad
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| 08:46 | <Ryudo> on terminal iwch 64 mb of ram
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| 08:46 | <ogra> it used to eat about 300M in gutsy
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| 08:46 | <Ryudo> is the killer website :D
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| 08:46 | <ogra> so FF improved a lot here
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| 08:46 | <Ryudo> O_o
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| 08:46 | but ogra
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| 08:46 | you have opera here ?
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| 08:46 | <ogra> nope
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| 08:46 | <Ryudo> ope this web site on opera
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| 08:46 | <ogra> and i wont clutter my system with it
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| 08:47 | <Ryudo> xrestop reporta 4775
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| 08:47 | 5 MB ;)
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| 08:47 | <ogra> i know it handles images completely different to other browsers, no need to prove that
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| 08:47 | <deavidsedice> I've tested that URL in Konqueror... ¡ouch!
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| 08:47 | <Ryudo> uahuhaa :{
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| 08:47 | <ogra> deavidsedice, yeah, its the worst example of bad html habits
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| 08:47 | <Ryudo> ahahaha
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| 08:48 | ;-)
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| 08:48 | <deavidsedice> 1,5Gb of RAM eaten by KHTML :-S
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| 08:48 | <Ryudo> O_O
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| 08:48 | <deavidsedice> now trying with FF 3 beta 3
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| 08:48 | <Ryudo> post results here :D
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| 08:49 | <deavidsedice> FF -> 512Mb or more...
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| 08:49 | <ogra> yeah, isnt it beautiful how you can drag tiffs from your scanner directly into your frontpage webpage in windows ? :P
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| 08:49 | who cares about filesize :)
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| 08:50 | <deavidsedice> Ok, I can see the webpage with Firefox 3 beta 3.
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| 08:50 | All the images are copied to some disk cache
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| 08:50 | and they're placed onto the RAM only when needed
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| 08:50 | is a bit slower..
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| 08:50 | but it's ok.
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| 08:50 | <ogra> yeah
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| 08:50 | as i said, they improved it a lot
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| 08:51 | <deavidsedice> now, opera.
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| 08:51 | wow. Opera is going a lot faster than FF
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| 08:51 | about 256Mb of memory only
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| 08:52 | can be less (I'm seeing graphs on a KDE applet)
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| 08:52 | Opera does not load images when they are out of my view
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| 08:53 | when I scrolled, Opera tried to get them from internet
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| 08:53 | ouch. In opera, ever I scroll, Opera reloads the images.
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| 08:54 | K_O-Gnom has joined #ltsp | |
| 08:54 | <deavidsedice> It's like freeing the images that are out of the window, and fetch them after, when the user scrolls.
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| 08:54 | the page it's never completely loaded.
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| 08:54 | :-(
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| 08:55 | PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S PU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
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| 08:55 | 1144 deavid 20 0 319m 281m 14m S 0.3 18.5 0:46.01 opera
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| 08:56 | ogra: and what about galeon?
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| 08:57 | Galeon gives beter results on that URL :-)
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| 08:58 | <ogra> galeon is dead, no ?
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| 08:59 | <deavidsedice> ogra: I don't know, but galeon does not need to store images in cache, and only uses about 500Mb. And it's not like opera: Galeon does not fetch the image every time I scroll.
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| 08:59 | <ogra> right, but it uses libnspr which is dead since xulruner exists
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| 08:59 | alekibango has quit IRC | |
| 09:00 | <ogra> if it gets ported it willl behave exactly the same as firefox and epiphany (whic use xulrunner)
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| 09:00 | <vagrantc> so the fix would be to xulrunner?
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| 09:04 | <ogra> well, there was massive fixing already for ff3
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| 09:05 | the beta4 looked very good here
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| 09:05 | the complete pixmap handling was reworked
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| 09:06 | vagrantc, btw, did you notice that nbd does autoreconnect now ? so failover setups get possible now
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| 09:07 | <vagrantc> ogra: i haven't noticed...
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| 09:11 | viking-ice has quit IRC | |
| 09:11 | * warren confused as to why ldm isn't displaying any translations | |
| 09:11 | <vagrantc> warren: have you tried putting LANG in lts.conf ?
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| 09:11 | <warren> vagrantc: LDM_LANGUAGE or LANG?
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| 09:11 | <vagrantc> warren: i replied to your email, but haven't sent it yet.
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| 09:12 | warren: LANG
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| 09:12 | * warren tries | |
| 09:12 | <vagrantc> i think LDM_LANGUAGE is for the login session, but i don't really know
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| 09:13 | <warren> vagrantc: we should have a system fallback
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| 09:13 | vagrantc: like in gadi's cases where he wants the login screen to work even if it failed to connect to ldminfod
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| 09:13 | I also see it randomly fail to connect here
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| 09:13 | <ogra> yeah, its the selection from the list
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| 09:13 | (LDM_LANGUAGE)
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| 09:14 | <warren> defaultlanguage in ldminfod somehow gets "en_US" instead of "en_US.UTF-8"
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| 09:14 | <ogra> weird
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| 09:14 | <warren> not sure if that's causing any issues
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| 09:15 | <ogra> it likely will, you need the correct locale name ... but ten it only affects the session
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| 09:15 | not the ldm ui
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| 09:15 | <vagrantc> it would be nice to make the language selection and greeter language in sync
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| 09:15 | <ogra> ldm ui will only show whats set in the chroot as default locale
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| 09:15 | indeed
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| 09:15 | vagrantc, but that would mean you need to generate *all* possible locales during client build
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| 09:16 | <warren> which is what we do
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| 09:16 | <ogra> locale-gen alone takes about a minute for en* here
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| 09:16 | dont ask for asian
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| 09:16 | <warren> what exactly does locale-gen do?
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| 09:16 | spit out .mo files?
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| 09:17 | <ogra> Compiled locale files take about 50MB of disk space, and most users only need few locales. In order to save disk space, compiled locale files are not distributed in
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| 09:17 | the locales package, but selected locales are automatically generated when this package is installed by running the locale-gen program.
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| 09:17 | <Q-FUNK> I always wondered why C (en_US.UTF-8) is not included by default. I only need C to send bug reports and I really don't need the dozen of englush slangs in my gdm menu.
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| 09:17 | <ogra> from the manpage
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| 09:17 | <warren> we don't even have a tool called locale-gen
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| 09:17 | <ogra> Q-FUNK, C always works in ubuntu at least
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| 09:18 | <Q-FUNK> ogra: only because the full collection of english localisation and proof reading tools are installed by default.
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| 09:18 | <vagrantc> ogra: well, we need to generate all possible supported locales during chroot build, yes. but in the default case, i don't think it's an unreasonable default to assume whatever is installed on the server should be in the chroot.
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| 09:18 | <ogra> but ubuntu is pretty unique in handling translations anyway
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| 09:18 | <warren> what you decide to install in your chroot is your own choice
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| 09:19 | our distro chooses to install all possible languages in both server and client
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| 09:19 | <vagrantc> as long as it handles properly when a locale isn't available.
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| 09:19 | <ogra> vagrantc, i didnt talk about the default :)
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| 09:19 | <warren> we make it possible to strip it down though
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| 09:19 | <ogra> but if we want to switch on the fly all possible locales need to be available
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| 09:19 | <Q-FUNK> I don't need e.g. south african and australian english, but those come along for the ride the minute the default english packages needed to get C output are installed.
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| 09:19 | <vagrantc> ogra: well, in the exceptional or unusual cases, it's always going to require some effort :P
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| 09:20 | <ogra> warren, you dont do constant translation upgrades during a support lifecycle of a release, right ?
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| 09:20 | <vagrantc> ogra: switching on the fly only requires that all the locales you *want* to be available.
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| 09:20 | <warren> vagrantc: ok, LANG worked, but it appears to be displaying it in the wrong encoding (looks like garbage)
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| 09:20 | <ogra> vagrantc, all the ones that could come down the drain from ldminfod
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| 09:21 | <vagrantc> ogra: and i think we can't be perfect, but in the typical cases, i think we can do reasonably well.
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| 09:21 | <ogra> warren, go a UTF-8 capable font ?
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| 09:21 | <warren> ogra: actually, we do update translations on an as-needed basis
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| 09:21 | checking
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| 09:21 | is ldm is using pango to render its text?
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| 09:22 | <ogra> warren, well, its one of ubuntu basic policies that we update translations constantly on a two or three month schedule ... thats why translations are so heavly decoupled from everything for us
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| 09:23 | well, it understands pango ML ... it doesnt explicitly pull any extra pango stuff in beyond what gtk uses
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| 09:23 | (the labels are all written with us_markup=true, at least they were when i wrote the C frontend, not sure what scottie dropped from it)
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| 09:24 | <vagrantc> on debian, i've had to specify LANG=es_ES.UTF-8 in lts.conf to get spanish as spoken in spain.
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| 09:24 | <ogra> s/us_/use_/
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| 09:24 | right, you need the encoding
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| 09:25 | <vagrantc> haven't tried with ja_JP.UTF-8, but will try soon.
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| 09:27 | <ogra> for me ldm with dynamic translation switching means my chroot grows by about 600M
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| 09:27 | <warren> ah, chroot is missing fonts
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| 09:27 | ogra: translations alone or everything including fonts?
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| 09:28 | <ogra> all language-pack-$lang ackages (containing translations, onts and input methods)
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| 09:28 | *fonts
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| 09:28 | <warren> 221441 bytes installed with 9 .mo files
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| 09:28 | ogra: you don't need input methods for only the login screen
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| 09:28 | <ogra> i'm not talking about .mo files :)
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| 09:29 | well, i cant just split the ackages :)
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| 09:29 | <warren> I guess we do have these packages well split
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| 09:30 | <Pascal_Debian> hello
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| 09:31 | <ogra> warren, we did until we got so many asian users that we had to find a better system :)
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| 09:49 | <vagrantc> gvy: one thing i forgot to mention ... seems like there were a few files that were renamed to .in (presumably modified at package build), and it would be better to use "bzr mv" instead of "bzr rm FOO" "bzr add FOO.in" ...
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| 09:49 | Pascal_Debian has quit IRC | |
| 09:49 | <vagrantc> keeps the diffs smaller, and makes it easier to see the historical relationships.
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| 10:04 | * gvy is back (gone 03:26:42) | |
| 10:05 | <gvy> vagrantc, ouch! forwarding, that's important habit
| |
| 10:05 | thanks
| |
| 10:05 | <vagrantc> gvy: of course :)
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| 10:05 | gloubiboulga has quit IRC | |
| 10:05 | <vagrantc> it's not a *huge* deal, but it's worth mentioning.
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| 10:05 | <gvy> yeah
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| 10:06 | * gvy knows the difference | |
| 10:06 | * vagrantc loves peer review | |
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| 10:07 | <gvy> vagrantc, ah, he says he tried to cheat around bzr diff :-) it is in fact broken enough, seems impossible to generate diff -Naur
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| 10:07 | drops some options if one tries to specify external diff program, and others if "as usual"
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| 10:08 | don't remember the details but i've looked from behind the shoulder when he got angry with that and the behaviour was weird indeed
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| 10:08 | should have copypasted for a bugreport...
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| 10:08 | (the culprit was passing -N iirc)
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| 10:14 | <ogra> gvy, next time 'bzr :) they might be a good help ressource :)
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| 10:14 | err #bzr
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| 10:15 | (before he gets angry :) )
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| 10:17 | <gvy> ogra, but then again i knew that and just be less lazy eh? :)
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| 10:17 | thanks anyways :)
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| 10:17 | the diff shrank to 11k (from 60k last time from 80+k a while ago)
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| 11:37 | <Q-FUNK> ogra_cmpc: is there anything that can be done to speed up the sync of -geode from debian?
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| 11:40 | <warren> if [ -r /etc/sysconfig/i18n ]; then
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| 11:40 | . /etc/sysconfig/i18n
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| 11:40 | export LANG
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| 11:40 | fi
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| 11:40 | ogra_cmpc: vagrantc: any objection to something like this in the screen common?
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| 11:42 | <vagrantc> warren: i think it belongs elsewhere.
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| 11:42 | warren: overall, this is the case where i think we need distro-specific functionality
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| 11:43 | as in debian it's /etc/default/locale ... not sure what exactly ubuntu does
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| 11:43 | and i'm sure there's others
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| 11:46 | <johnny> gentoo it's /etc/env.d/02locale
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| 11:46 | and it is always available once logged in via /etc/profile.env env-update handles all the exporting
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| 11:47 | <laga> "env.d" looks like someone might put it into "/etc/env.d/0200-foolocale" as well
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| 11:47 | <johnny> sure..
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| 11:47 | it'll still be parsed anyways
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| 11:47 | <vagrantc> what about things run from init?
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| 11:49 | <johnny> i'm not exactly sure how early it is, but it seems early enough atm
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| 11:49 | prolly once we are able to use bash
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| 11:49 | so.. pretty early
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| 11:51 | this is one the few places you use numbers for ordering
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| 11:51 | the init system doesn't have anything like that
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| 11:52 | i did hear of an interesting meeting that is going to happen between roy marples (the guy who cleaned up our init system) , the upstart guy, and initng guy
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| 11:52 | at least such is rumored to be happening
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| 11:53 | we've been using dependency based init scripts for some years now
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| 11:53 | <johnny> 4 or 5 years i'm guessing
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| 11:53 | hmm.. whoa.. touchin 6 now
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| 11:54 | <warren> vagrantc: ok, what method of distro-specific setting should we use?
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| 11:54 | vagrantc: I mean, where it should be done
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| 11:55 | <johnny> are there going to be pre and post screen-x-common ? or just screen-x-$distro ?
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| 11:56 | * warren dislikes screen-x-$distro because I don't want to rely on distro name anywhere | |
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| 11:58 | <vagrantc> warren: well, it depends on how your distro is calling the screen scripts ... for debian, it would make sense to put it in our init script.
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| 12:04 | <warren> vagrantc: oh, I see.
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| 12:05 | <vagrantc> warren: and this is the classic "try to avoid making unecessary filesystem calls" issue
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| 12:05 | since it happens client-side.
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| 12:07 | <warren> ok, so each distro needs to do it their own way
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| 12:07 | gotcha
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| 12:07 | <dberkholz> in gentoo, locale ends up being set by /etc/profile so any login shell gets it
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| 12:07 | not sure exactly how the init process works in that respect
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| 12:12 | <vagrantc> warren: so our options are to try and figure out if there's a distro-independent place to hook that code into, or if there's something else already distro-specific that makes sense to plug into.
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| 12:12 | <warren> there seems to be no distro-neutral standard
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| 12:14 | <vagrantc> right, but we can have an infrastructure, similar to /usr/share/ltsp/ltsp-vendor-functions which i hope to someday populate with distro-specific implementations with common function names, like the architecture code...
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| 12:20 | <vagrantc> maybe a function like "get_ltsp_locale" would work here.
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| 12:32 | <lns> I guess colmar and Ryudo left, but if anyone's interested I have kind of a 'summary' page for the FF & OOo pixmap issues, with bugtracker URLs and all (like we all haven't heard enough about it) - http://lns.wikidot.com/firefoxpixmapcaching - http://lns.wikidot.com/openofficepixmapcaching
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| 12:36 | yack...right as i get an e-mail from a teacher saying 'we're still using windows for a lot of our computer labs because OOo and Firefox lock up a lot"
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| 12:36 | was this kind of thing an issue "back in the day" when X11 was just X11, and was designed for network usage?
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| 12:37 | or did the advent of fat clients spoil us all into these kinds of coding practices
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| 12:51 | <hersonls> jammcq, tomorrow ;)
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| 12:59 | <vagrantc> lns: i think you're onto something there... X11 was designed to be network transparent, but many apps neglect to prioritize along the same lines...
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| 13:00 | firefox and openoffice being almost as projects for windows platforms as GNU/Linux
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| 13:00 | almost as much
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| 13:06 | <lns> vagrantc, it just seems obvious doesn't it, that the origins of X have kind of been disregarded in favor of fanciness
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| 13:07 | thus breaking a lot of functionality people would assume from it
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| 13:07 | anyway, i'm not a coder so i have no clue.
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| 13:09 | <vagrantc> i don't really know the details, but i suspect you're right.
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| 13:15 | <johnny> lns, there's been alot of toolkit evolution since then
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| 13:16 | odd things have grown in certain places
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| 13:16 | so.. refactor refactor refactor
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| 13:16 | as more goes into the toolkits, the easier it will be to possibly solve the problem for many apps at one time
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| 13:18 | <cpunches> hi cliebow
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| 13:18 | cliebow: sorry i couldn't make it to that lug; i didn't wanna risk it with the hail-- I found out that the hail actually stopped after i went back to bed lol
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| 13:19 | s/sleet/hail
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| 13:19 | wtf they call it up here lol
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| 13:49 | <lns> johnny, w/toolkits do you mean things like specifying "ENV=ltsp" or "ENV=local" to determine how to handle things like pixmap caching, etc?
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| 13:50 | or just how gfx are handled in general
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| 13:51 | <johnny> how gfx are handled in general
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| 13:51 | so the fixes are required in less places, and hopefully in smaller parts
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| 13:53 | <lns> that's good
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| 13:53 | =)
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| 13:54 | i would assume these things happen in non-ltsp thinclient environments as well ?
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| 13:55 | <lns> (not trying to start another discussion on what's pretty obvious at this point)
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| 14:00 | <vagrantc> lns: they happen, but they're often mitigated by sufficient swap space. low-end hardware, thin-clients, embedded devices, or any sort of restricted environment all expperience issues with it.
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| 14:00 | <johnny> lots of folks are working on making it perform better in embedded environments at least
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| 14:00 | <vagrantc> i.e. a pixmap cached to swap that you're never going to use again has relatively little impact on system performance.
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| 14:01 | * vagrantc wonders if vagrantc uses "i.e." correctly | |
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| 14:03 | <lns> johnny, vagrantc, what I still don't totally get is why the pixmap mem DOESN'T get swapped out
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| 14:03 | <pscheie> i.e. =~ "in other words", not to be confused with e.g., which means "for example"
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| 14:04 | <ivazquez> "Id est", "That is"
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| 14:04 | <lns> I.E. = "In Essense" I thought
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| 14:06 | <pscheie> 'In Essence' is a gneumonic (sp) for recalling what i.e. means, but technically it does stand for the latin Id Est
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| 14:08 | <johnny> mnemonic
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| 14:09 | <lns> wow...ya learn something new every day i guess =p
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| 14:14 | blah..i don't like it when compiz crashes randomly and my window borders disappear =p
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| 19:45 | <lns> wow I was really the last one to say something here huh? =p I come here for some after-work pleasure reading on #ltsp and i get nuthin! =p
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| 19:53 | <petre> hey jammcq
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| 19:57 | <jammcq> hey petre
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| 19:58 | <petre> did you go to Brazil yet?
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| 19:58 | * petre can't remember the dates | |
| 19:58 | <jammcq> leaving tomorrow
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| 19:59 | <petre> cool!
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| 19:59 | ah, to be self-employed & have control over one's time like that
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| 20:01 | <jammcq> oh yeah, it's just nothing but fun
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| 20:03 | <BGomes> petre: where are u from?
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| 20:03 | <petre> Minneapolis (US)
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| 20:03 | you?
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| 20:04 | <BGomes> petre: Brasil (MA)
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| 20:04 | <petre> brb
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| 20:04 | <jammcq> BGomes: what city?
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| 20:05 | <BGomes> jammcq: Imperatriz (MA)
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| 20:05 | <jammcq> hmm, where is that?
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| 20:05 | <BGomes> jammcq: Imperatriz is my city see at maps.google Imperatriz,MA,Brasil
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| 20:06 | jammcq: it is long travel to Porto Alegre
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| 20:06 | <jammcq> ah, I'll be flying right over that tomorrow night
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| 20:08 | <BGomes> jammcq: I fly at 3 am (UTC) tomorrow
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| 20:08 | <jammcq> are you UTC-4 ?
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| 20:08 | or -3 ?
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| 20:09 | <BGomes> yes
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| 20:09 | -3
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| 20:10 | sorry.. I am fly 9 am (UTC)
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| 20:13 | jammcq: What time you do flying to here?
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| 20:13 | <jammcq> I will arrive at 12:20pm on Wednesday at POA
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| 20:13 | <BGomes> 12:20(UTC-3)
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| 22:10 | <johnny> dberkholz, should i be creating /var/lib/tftpboot in ltsp-server ? i'm not sure how much setup we're trying to do in the ebuild
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| 22:10 | oh.. and also symlinking pxelinux.0
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| 22:10 | <dberkholz> johnny: try a pkg_config() function to do that kinda stuff
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| 22:11 | people run `emerge --config ltsp-server` to use it
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| 22:11 | johnny: that makes it so the config step can be rerun over and over without reinstalling
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| 22:14 | <johnny> so.. about initramfs..
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| 22:14 | should we go for initramfs-tools ?
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| 22:15 | to do otherwise.. i think would require some patching of genkernel
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| 22:15 | and updating genkernel's busybox
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| 22:15 | which has mdadm support that is not upstreamed
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| 22:16 | <dberkholz> johnny: we should definitely use genkernel
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| 22:17 | whether that ends up using initramfs-tools on the backend is another story
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| 22:17 | <johnny> genkernel's initramfs support is very limited .. the only part maintained is enough to handle livecds
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| 22:18 | it's not modularized like genkernel4
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| 22:18 | <dberkholz> johnny: what did you want to do with it?
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| 22:19 | <johnny> do with which?
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| 22:19 | <dberkholz> johnny: with the initramfs
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| 22:20 | <johnny> i am not sure, i'd like to use genkernel, but it is going to require a bit of work
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| 22:21 | it'd be nice if genkernel could use initramfs-tools .. or try to get the genkernel4 initramfs integrated (but created in a saner manner)
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| 22:21 | <dberkholz> johnny: well, if you'd get your other stuff in, i could take a look at it
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| 22:21 | <johnny> i've got almost everything in
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| 22:22 | it does require manual interaction with genkernel to get it to work
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| 22:23 | you do have to patch the file that lists all the modules that get autoloaded for busybox
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| 22:23 | to add all the network modules
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| 22:23 | i don't think it is a good idea to make users do that tho, thus the reason i brought up this discussion
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| 22:24 | since even if we did get the network modules added to the default module list , it still wouldn't support nbdroot, or allow us to use unionfs, or allow us to use uclibc
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| 22:25 | the other thing i'm currently testing, is that LDM_XSESSION idea you mentioned
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| 22:26 | <dberkholz> yeah, seems like there's some ways to make the whole module autoloading work
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| 22:26 | <johnny> i don't understand why it does those manually
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| 22:26 | <dberkholz> maybe some runtime option to pass to genkernel to list modules to be autoloaded
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| 22:26 | <johnny> genkernel4 autoloads the modules, but it does have a directive to add a module.. or class of modules to the initramfs
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| 22:27 | which is why i was so excited about it before
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| 22:27 | but it is too fragile atm
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| 22:27 | and would lead to much confusion until the name change
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| 22:27 | plus.. i think such a thing should be used by gentoo proper, not hidden off for ltsp users
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| 22:28 | <dberkholz> johnny: yeah. we should be doing things the gentoo way, not going off on tangents
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| 22:29 | <johnny> there is no gentoo way for this yet :)
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| 22:29 | imo.. genkernel4 embodies the gentoo way
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| 22:29 | maybe that's too strong
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| 22:29 | how about.. "comes closest"
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| 22:31 | <ryudo> johnny
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| 22:31 | you use ltsp ?
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| 22:31 | how your terminal configs ?
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| 22:31 | <dberkholz> johnny: it doesn't because gentoo isn't using it
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| 22:32 | johnny: we're trying to follow the ltsp philosophy here of offloading work onto other people, and that means using what gentoo uses =)
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| 22:32 | <johnny> but it is not good if what gentoo uses .. sucks
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| 22:32 | <dberkholz> then we have to fix it or get them to replace it
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| 22:32 | <johnny> let's go with #2
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| 22:33 | <dberkholz> won't happen when gk4 hasn't yet seen a release
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| 22:33 | <johnny> i've got it down to around 6 extra steps once you run ltsp-build-client, to make it work
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| 22:34 | dberkholz, but then agaffney and wolf32o1 have to accept it
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| 22:34 | is it possible for you to talk to them and explain our situation?
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| 22:35 | <dberkholz> they care about their situation, not ours ... so what we would have to do is figure out how to put things in terms of what they care about
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| 22:35 | <johnny> that's the problem i'm having :)
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| 22:36 | <ryudo> johnny :(
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| 22:37 | you use ltsp 5 correct ? how your terminals config ?
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| 22:39 | <johnny> ?
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| 22:45 | dberkholz, any ideas on that?
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| 22:46 | <dberkholz> johnny: sure, figure out what problems there are with gk3 that gk4 fixes
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| 22:48 | <johnny> easy
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| 22:48 | <dberkholz> johnny: then narrow that down to problems that affect people trying to build gentoo releases
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| 22:51 | <johnny> if you look at the output of genkernel4.. it seems like 70% of the stuff they added would be useful for such people
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| 22:51 | output of genkernel4 --help that is
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