IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 14 August 2014 (all times are UTC)
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| 02:36 | <vagrantc> well, couldn't figure out what was wrong with ltspfs on jessie, but was able to test the fix on wheezy with a backported ltspfs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltspfs/+bug/1021579
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| 02:37 | now to fix in jessie so I can really fix the issue.
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| 03:19 | <vagrantc> so, the fuse group is gone .... i wonder if our scripts assume something there.
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| 04:11 | <vagrantc> ok, i think lbmount thinks it's not installed setuid root.
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| 04:11 | that's *one* of the problems...
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| 04:30 | meh. strace is not useable on setuid programs, so the setuid issue is a red herring.
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| 04:54 | anyone having ltspfs troubles in recent versions of ubuntu? 14.04 or 14.10 ?
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| 05:01 | * vagrantc tries patching lbmont to use --bind instead of --move | |
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| 06:45 | <vagrantc> meh.
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| 06:45 | well, made some progress... still can't figure out why ltspfsd fails to start when called from udev.
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| 06:48 | ok, well, running sysvinit instead of systemd fixed it.
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| 06:48 | first time i've been really bitten by a difference in behavior
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| 06:48 | wonder if that affects the mount --move bug too...
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| 06:57 | and systemd breaks that too
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| 07:13 | <vagrantc> this kind of makes me want to toss out the security concerns of a writeable /media/USERNAME and just mount directly to /media/USERNAME/MOUNT
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| 07:14 | alkisg: so, systemd borked ltspfs on debian! :)
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| 07:14 | or, one of it's evil minions.
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| 07:15 | the "mount --move" just plain doesn't work, and ltspfsd doesn't start from udev anymore. switching back to sysvinit works like a charm.
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| 07:16 | * vagrantc might upload ltspfs with a "Breaks: systemd" just to document this... | |
| 07:16 | <vagrantc> is any ubuntu variant using systemd yet?
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| 07:27 | <cyberorg> vagrantc, we have that mount --move since a long time on suse, i've just adapted /etc/ltspfs/mounter.d/kde-desktop-icons to point to file:///tmp/.%s-ltspfs/%
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| 07:28 | <vagrantc> cyberorg: yes, we've been using "mount --move" for ages in debian and ubuntu as well...
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| 07:28 | cyberorg: or do you mean "systemd breaks mount --move" ?
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| 07:29 | <cyberorg> mount: bad option. Note that moving a mount residing under a shared mount is unsupported
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| 07:30 | don't know what is responsible for it
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| 07:31 | i think directly mounting to /media/USERNAME/MOUNT is a good idea, all the moving mount doesn't make much sense to me
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| 07:33 | <alkisg> vagrantc: I don't know enough about ltspfsd to be immediately helpful, but if you want to chat about it, i'm here :)
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| 07:33 | ltspfsd doesn't start from udev at all now, or it just exits immediately?
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| 07:34 | Ubuntu 14.10 uses systemd AFAIK
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| 07:34 | <vagrantc> alkisg: it seems to start and fail quietly ... it's a bit of a beast to extract useful information out of
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| 07:34 | <alkisg> vagrantc: maybe you could run screen instead, so that you have a terminal to test stuff?
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| 07:35 | I.e. replace ltspfsd with a screen wrapper...
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| 07:35 | <vagrantc> also, if i run it manually from a shell on tty2, it works fine.
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| 07:35 | i did replace it with an strace logging wrapper ... but that didn't tell much
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| 07:35 | <alkisg> screen would be under systemd
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| 07:36 | Btw, what were those security concerns?
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| 07:37 | <vagrantc> cyberorg: yeah, the direct mounting would be ideal, i even had a patch for it ages ago, but it was nixed due to security concerns of a user DOSing a server by filling up /media/
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| 07:38 | <alkisg> What's the sequence there? A user inserts a stick, udev launches ltspfsd, which mounts the stick as root, and `mount --bind`'s it to /media/username/label?
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| 07:38 | <cyberorg> vagrantc, how does mounting to /tmp them mount --move prevent that?
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| 07:39 | <vagrantc> cyberorg: because they're not given write access to /media/USERNAME
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| 07:40 | alkisg: everything good up until mount --bind ...
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| 07:40 | alkisg: there's a bunch of plumbing between server and client at that point
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| 07:41 | <alkisg> Ah, wait, ltspfsd locally hides the mount... and then ltspfs on the server mounts it under /media/username
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| 07:41 | Right?
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| 07:42 | <vagrantc> alkisg: ltspfs on the server mounts it as /tmp/.username-ltspfs/FOO and then "mount --move /tmp/.username-ltspfs/FOO /media/username/FOO"
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| 07:42 | lbmount handles the relocation of the mount point
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| 07:42 | <alkisg> But /media/username is already owned by the user, unrelated to ltsp, right?
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| 07:43 | <vagrantc> no
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| 07:44 | root:root here.
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| 07:44 | <alkisg> I had alkisg:alkisg, but after deleting it, it was recreated root:root, ok
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| 07:45 | <vagrantc> apparently, "mount --make-private /" may make "mount --move" work on systemd running systems.
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| 07:46 | though, honestly, i'm tempted to just mount a tiny tmpfs in /media/username and direct mount
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| 07:48 | <alkisg> How does udisks mount things under /media/username/label, and we can't do it?
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| 07:48 | <vagrantc> there was some plan to explore ltspfs-udisks hooks, but it's been long stalled out
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| 07:49 | <alkisg> I mean, if we already have a suid root wrapper, I don't see why we can't mount things directly under /media/username, even if it's owned by root...
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| 07:50 | <vagrantc> the ltspfs fuse part needs to be run as the user
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| 07:50 | also, don't run more as root than you absolutely have to
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| 07:50 | especially with setuid
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| 07:50 | <alkisg> Sure, same as udisks does it
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| 07:50 | I don't think they're doing more than absolutely necessary
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| 07:52 | <vagrantc> my old code basically just created a dir in /media/username/ for each mountpoint, and that's all the setuid code did, and then the ltspfs mount could mount directly to that.
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| 07:53 | <alkisg> E.g. mkdir /media/alkisg/sshfs-test, and chown it to alkisg, and then try sshfs as the user => works fine...
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| 07:53 | <vagrantc> it was a hugely simpler diff, far less code running as root, just had the problem of potentially allowing a user to write DOS the /media/username dir with big files (given that /media isn't often split off from /)
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| 07:53 | alkisg: yes, that's exactly what the code did.
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| 07:53 | <alkisg> In my example above, /media/alkisg is owned by root
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| 07:54 | So the user can't write there
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| 07:54 | <vagrantc> but they could write to sshfs-test
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| 07:54 | <alkisg> It's sshfs, mounted from elsewhere
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| 07:54 | <vagrantc> if they managed to unmount it
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| 07:54 | you can unmount sshfs dirs you create
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| 07:54 | <alkisg> The unmount wrapper should delete the directory
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| 07:54 | <vagrantc> but they don't have to use the wrapper
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| 07:54 | <alkisg> They do, they're not root
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| 07:55 | If we pass a helper to the mount command
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| 07:55 | <vagrantc> they can umount sshfs filesystems owned by themselves
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| 07:55 | <alkisg> If you have a helper there, it'll be called on unmount
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| 07:55 | Even if you use fusermount
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| 07:55 | <vagrantc> i.e. /sbin/umount.ltspfs or whatever?
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| 07:55 | <alkisg> /sbin/mount.ntfs /dev/sda1 /media/alkisg/Vista -o rw,nosuid,nodev,uhelper=udisks2,uid=1010,gid=1010,dmask=0077,fmask=0177
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| 07:56 | That uhelper=xxx can be lbumount, yeah
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| 07:56 | And it will even allow unmounting from nautilus
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| 07:56 | <vagrantc> that sounds like an improvement.
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| 07:57 | ok, time to do some surgery on ltspfs...
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| 07:57 | maybe after i get some sleep.
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| 08:00 | * alkisg wonders if all those private* mounts can help in ltsp-update-image cleanup.d... | |
| 08:00 | <alkisg> !alkisg-todo
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| 08:00 | <ltsp> alkisg-todo: (#1) Hooks for running scripts on these phases: INITRD/INIT/RC/DM/AUTH/LOGIN/SESSION/PERIODIC/LOGOUT/SHUTDOWN, or (#2) implement ltsp-config aoe, or (#3) fix vendor:pxe in ltsp-server-dnsmasq.conf and add more options, or (#4) change COMPRESS=gzip (19899456 bytes) to either lzma (14710842) or xz (14633624), in /etc/initramfs-tools/initramfs.conf
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| 08:00 | <alkisg> !forget alkisg-todo 4
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| 08:00 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 08:01 | <alkisg> vendor:pxe in ltsp-server-dnsmasq.conf should be vendor:PXEClient... I don't know why it ended up that way
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| 08:01 | <alkisg> And we could add some other options in the example configuration, commented out, like those shown in dnsmasq --help dhcp
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| 08:02 | <alkisg> E.g. dns-server, swap-server...
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| 08:06 | <alkisg> !learn alkisg-todo as parse dhcpinfo.dat from http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Linux.c32
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| 08:06 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 08:31 | <vagrantc> alkisg: i cc'ed you on two ltspfs* bugs i just submitted related to the systemd issues...
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| 08:31 | alkisg: hope that's ok.
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| 08:31 | <alkisg> vagrantc: sure buddy, np at all
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| 08:33 | <vagrantc> i don't expect you to solve it, but if you have more ideas or something i missed, feel free to chime in :)
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| 08:34 | * vagrantc suspects the newer ubuntu system will have the same or similar issues | |
| 08:34 | <vagrantc> and if not, i'd be very curious about what's different
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| 08:35 | <alkisg> I think Ubuntu LTSP users nowadays stick with LTS releases... so unless some developer tests some non-LTS release, we'll know about it in 16.04 :)
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| 08:41 | <vagrantc> pfft.
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| 08:42 | wheee. two RC bugs on ltspfs...
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| 08:42 | that'll stir the mud.
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| 08:44 | <alkisg> Are any ltsp-dev other than you attending debconf ? Maybe you could work on that there...
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| 08:44 | * vagrantc is playing host | |
| 08:44 | <vagrantc> probably not a lot of time for development
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| 08:45 | might get some time to work on it in the next couple days
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| 08:45 | <alkisg> Ah, I thought there was a time before debconf reserved for development... *camp something?
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| 08:46 | <vagrantc> usually there is, but this time the plan was to have dedicated development time during the course of the week without any scheduled talks
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| 08:46 | it's an experiment
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| 08:48 | * vagrantc is tempted to limp along with the "use --bind mount and umount the entry in /tmp" quick fix | |
| 08:48 | <vagrantc> even though something more ambitious is in order
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| 08:50 | * vagrantc sleep | |
| 08:50 | * alkisg would prefer sshfs for ltsp6... | |
| 08:50 | * vagrantc waves | |
| 08:50 | <alkisg> 'night vagrantc
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| 09:45 | <bernste4> hi there
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| 09:45 | the file /etc/network/interfaces is dynamically generated by ltsp
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| 09:46 | do you know where i can set the MTU then ?
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| 09:47 | <alkisg> RCFILE_01="ip params to change mtu"
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| 09:47 | Even if you changed that file, it wouldn't take effect, because the ip is manual, set by the initramfs
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| 09:48 | So either use RCFILE_01 like above, or put an initramfs script
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| 09:48 | <bernste4> ok
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| 09:48 | thanks
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| 09:48 | <alkisg> E.g. #2: /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/init-premount/udhcp-sis190
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| 09:48 | <bernste4> cool
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| 09:48 | <alkisg> http://paste.ubuntu.com/8043917/
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| 09:48 | That sets the mtu only for sis network cards
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| 09:49 | <bernste4> btw, i just updated our ubuntu 12.04 ltsp setup to 14.04 and it worked great
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| 09:50 | <alkisg> You're lucky, 14.04 is lame here, where we need an international keyboard layout... :)
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| 09:50 | * alkisg waves | |
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| 13:33 | <pscheie> Are there any other HOT examples besides https://github.com/openstack/heat-templates/tree/master/hot
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| 13:33 | ?
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| 13:33 | Oops, wrong channel.
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| 14:10 | <brianr> good morning. I have a web application that is being accessed by thin clients. The web application needs to know the IP of the thin client. Does anyone know a good way to make remote_addr or even x_forwarded_for (or similar variables) report the thin client ip and not the terminal server ip
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| 14:32 | <Hyperbyte> brianr, actually, I ran into the same issue are you are running into.
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| 14:32 | <Hyperbyte> brianr, not sure if you are actually looking for the IP of the user? Because what I wanted was the username. :-)
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| 14:33 | brianr, and this I solved by using the ident protocol (TCP port 113, identd daemon)
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| 14:33 | It's a very simple protocol to implement.
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| 14:34 | If you really need the IP address of the client, then you're out of luck I think. The browser runs on the terminal server, not the thin client. So it doesn't actually know the IP address.
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| 14:35 | One hack you could do is create a script that runs firefox http://mywebapp/?ip=$LTSP_CLIENT
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| 14:36 | <brianr> how about dynamically setting x_forwarded_for to $LTSP_CLIEN
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| 14:36 | getting the username wont help us much
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| 14:36 | <Hyperbyte> brianr, X_FORWARDED_FOR is set by proxy servers
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| 14:37 | <brianr> yes
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| 14:39 | <Hyperbyte> brianr, let's go back one step - what exactly do you want to do with the IP address?
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| 14:39 | Why do you need it?
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| 14:40 | <brianr> we have local devices, scanners to be exact on the thin clients, and the web app needs to tell sane where to try and pull the scan from
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| 14:41 | right now we are looking at some browser extensions that let you set headers
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| 14:41 | we might have something that works ... it reads your headers from a file, so we could write that file when the user logs in.
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| 14:42 | <Hyperbyte> brianr, you realize LTSP has scanning features you can enable so the local scanner is available directly on the server?
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| 14:42 | That might help a little somehow...
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| 14:42 | Also, another option could be to run the browser for the webapp locally, on the thin client itself, rather than on the server.
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| 14:43 | Check
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| 14:43 | !localapps
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| 14:43 | <ltsp> localapps: to access a tutorial on setting up localapps on jaunty, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPLocalAppsJaunty
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| 14:43 | <Hyperbyte> Oh that's really old.
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| 14:43 | Type "ltsp-localapps xterm" in a terminal window, it'll show you what localapps does.
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| 14:43 | <brianr> many of our thin clients are not beefy enough to run it locally, it works but performance is poor. many have 1gb memory, and are using atom processors
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| 14:44 | <Hyperbyte> I wasn't suggesting to run everything locally... just the web app.
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| 14:44 | <brianr> because that does work ... we tried that but performance was horrible
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| 14:44 | right .. we were just running chrome locally
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| 14:44 | <Hyperbyte> Anyway... those are my thoughts so far. :P I have to hit the road now though.
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| 14:44 | Maybe someone else has better idea.
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| 15:28 | <alkisg> brianr: create a /usr/local/bin/firefox wrapper, which runs /usr/bin/firefox "http://your-web-server/index.php?client=$LTSP-CLIENT"
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| 15:28 | Then redirect it to your main index page, and get the referrer...
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| 15:29 | <brianr> hmm, yes that _should_ work
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| 15:37 | <brianr> i'll tell you the imediate issue with that, when you specify a url in the startup of chrome or firefox, it does not open the users preferred start page(s).
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| 15:42 | <alkisg> I thought that was the only application that the users ran... but anyway, translating from an environment variable to an http header is a question for #mozilla, not for #ltsp...
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| 15:43 | It should be doable with a tiny plugin.
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| 15:44 | It's also possible for the wrapper to use sqlite and directly edit firefox settings before launching firefox
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| 15:47 | <brianr> that's a possibility. also thinking of writing a cookie upon user login, that the webserver can access
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| 15:48 | <alkisg> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/933433
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| 15:48 | They describe a method to set user preferences (like user.js) from environment variables there
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| 15:48 | So it should be easy to create a global user.js that sets a header from LTSP_CLIENT, for all users
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| 15:49 | <brianr> thanks for the link , that looks promising
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| 15:50 | <alkisg> Anyway, ask at #mozilla, they know their stuff better
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| 16:20 | <vagrantc> cyberorg: you might be interested in following https://bugs.debian.org/758090 and https://bugs.debian.org/758093
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| 16:20 | i guess upstream bugs might make sense as well..
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| 16:21 | although i'm not sure what part is debian-specific at this point
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| 16:22 | <vagrantc> ok, so lxde has *two* features that work well with ltsp ... shutdown/reboot work out of the box, and ltspfs mounts show up in the file manager!
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| 18:25 | <vagrantc> hrm. my quick workaround requires me to learn some C ... it exec's the mount --bind business, so it can't follow-up with an umount.
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| 18:25 | or maybe there's another way.
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| 18:31 | * alkisg just tried ltspfs in 14.04, and while it works (no systemd here), the owner of /media/user is user:root | |
| 18:31 | <alkisg> So it's already writeable...
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| 18:34 | Unmounting any directory inside /home/user/* automatically results in the directory being removed
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| 18:34 | Even without helpers present in the command line
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| 18:35 | <vagrantc> hm.
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| 18:35 | wonder how we made that work.
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| 18:37 | <alkisg> No no sorry, for the automatic removal, I was talking about other mounts, not ltspfs ones
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| 18:37 | E.g. mounting an ntfs volume... but, unmounting an ltspfs mount doesn't auto-remove it
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| 18:38 | <vagrantc> the simplest approach would be to create /media/username/FOO as writeable as the user, and then ltspfs mounting directly there.
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| 18:39 | <alkisg> Verify that /media/username doesn't exist. Then plug in a USB stick. Then you say that in debian, that directory would be owned by root:root?
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| 18:39 | Because here, when ltspfs creates it, it's user:root, already insecure...
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| 18:44 | <vagrantc> yeah, it seems to be created as /media/username owned by the user here too...
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| 18:44 | though i do have a quick fix workaround: http://paste.debian.net/115638/
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| 18:44 | <alkisg> So all the trouble of `mount --move` is in vain, AFAIK...
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| 18:44 | <vagrantc> right
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| 18:45 | we could really simplify the code greatly.
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| 18:45 | <alkisg> There's a small patch for reverse sshfs
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| 18:46 | I'd rather use that for ltsp6...
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| 18:46 | <vagrantc> sure
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| 18:46 | well, at least for debian, i may go with my simple little workaround for now.
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| 18:46 | <alkisg> What are the downsides of mount --bind as a workaround for now?
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| 18:47 | <vagrantc> the original downside was that it leaves two mounts (one in /media and one in /tmp)
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| 18:47 | but i've worked around that in ltspfsmounter.
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| 18:47 | there might be some corner cases where a mount fails and leaves us in an ugly state, whereas --move is atomic
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| 18:48 | also haven't tested the backportability of this approach ... maybe old fusermount would remove both /media and /tmp mountpoints if you removed one of them.
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| 18:52 | * vagrantc also needs to test with sysvinit and backportability... | |
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| 18:54 | <alkisg> !learn alkisg as test reverse sshfs: http://www.commandlinefu.com/commands/view/13289/reverse-sshfs-mount
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| 18:54 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 18:54 | <alkisg> !forget alkisg 2
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| 18:54 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 18:54 | <alkisg> !learn alkisg-todo as test reverse sshfs: http://www.commandlinefu.com/commands/view/13289/reverse-sshfs-mount
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| 18:54 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 18:54 | <vagrantc> i should look into updating it to mount to /media/username/foo directly.
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| 18:54 | a little more invasive, but a *lot* cleaner.
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| 18:55 | <vagrantc> also, while we're at it, installing a umount helper script would be nice.
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| 18:56 | let's see if we can't push out ltspfs 1.4 in the next couple days...
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| 18:56 | <alkisg> It appears that things advanced, in 14.04 it's possible for the user to unmount things even without a helper somehow
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| 18:56 | <vagrantc> in jessie i've been able to unmount it with fusermount -u
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| 18:56 | but, great!
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| 18:58 | <alkisg> ltsp 6... no ldm, no ltspfs, no getltscfg... we already removed xatomwait etc...
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| 18:58 | ...it shouldn't be called ltsp anymore, everything got rewritten :D
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| 18:59 | <vagrantc> hrm. lxde's file manager isn't showing the mounts with mount --bind
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| 18:59 | alkisg: well, a lot of that wasn't in ltsp 3 or 4 either
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| 18:59 | alkisg: about the only thing that's been around since forever is getltscfg
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| 19:00 | alkisg: so, calling it something else is a separate issue
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| 19:04 | helperless unmount doesn't work in mate on jessie
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| 19:06 | but it does show up in the file manager
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| 19:48 | <vagrantc> heh. looks like sbalneav changed it to own the /media/username as the user back in february 2010
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| 19:49 | why we're not taking full advantage of it is beyond me!
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| 20:32 | <vagrantc> ah, i remember now ... we changed the /media/username to be chowned by the user so that it didn't depend on the user's group being private.
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| 20:32 | as the code to handle that correctly was insane.
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| 21:42 | <user3> Hi, Im wondering if LTSP requires a internet connection for it to work. I think it needs to be connected to the router, but if the internet itself cuts off (which is somewhat requent with my internet), will the thin clients shut down?
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| 21:43 | Also, does it use data from your ISP?
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| 21:45 | <talntid> it does not need internet
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| 21:45 | unless, of course, you want to surf the web
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| 21:45 | it doesn't use data from your ISP, unless, of course, you want to surf the web
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| 21:45 | <user3> okay, thanks
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| 21:48 | <vagrantc> unless, of course, your router is the hardware that fails...
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| 21:48 | and you've got the thin clients plugged directly into it...
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| 22:37 | <talntid> ;)
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| 23:26 | <cryptrat> got a ?, there is a youtube video from disklessworkstations that shows rdp or rdesktop being used to remotely call ms office is there any tutorial for that anywhere?
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| 23:32 | sorry it was revolutionLinux https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OEs2AWFTWc
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