IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 5 October 2011 (all times are UTC)
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| 01:43 | <quietone> I am new at this. how should thin client users remove/unmount USB sticks? My searches turn up the question, not the answer. Ubuntu 10.04
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| 06:15 | <ball> Can ltsp run on a VIA EPIA M10000 mainboard? It seems to have Unichrome graphics on-board (in the N. bridge I think).
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| 06:43 | <alkisg> If it can run linux, it can also run ltsp
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| 06:43 | <ball> alkisg: I'll have to try Linux on it then.
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| 06:44 | <alkisg> I'm sure google can answer that question though
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| 06:44 | <ball> alkisg: I know X.org on NetBSD couldn't seem to make its graphics work, but that may be a NetBSD quirk
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| 06:45 | <alkisg> In the first google results page about "VIA EPIA M10000 linux" I see people that have installed debian, ubuntu etc on those
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| 06:46 | <ball> alkisg: That's encouraging then. I'll have to give it a try later today.
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| 06:46 | ...if I can get a spare disk drive on there.
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| 06:46 | <alkisg> A live usb stick would also work, no?
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| 06:46 | Or you can just try it as an ltsp client
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| 06:47 | <ball> alkisg: I don't have anything set up that could work as an ltsp server... not at home anyway.
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| 06:47 | <alkisg> You can also use my netbooting script
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| 06:48 | If you have an ubuntu cd, you can send that over the network
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| 06:50 | <ball> alkisg: Thanks for your help. I'll try to get back on here later this morning.
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| 08:38 | <Hyperbyte> mhm
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| 12:29 | <jason_> is the setup between debian and ubuntu in regard to ltsp that different?
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| 12:29 | <Hyperbyte> Hey Jason.
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| 12:29 | <jason_> like is my dhcp file located in the same place in debian as it was ubuntu?
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| 12:29 | hey there Hyperbyte
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| 12:29 | I'm going the debian route now... :P
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| 12:29 | <Hyperbyte> Have some time?
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| 12:29 | Oh...
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| 12:29 | <jason_> er
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| 12:29 | yaboot installation failed
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| 12:29 | sweet
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| 12:29 | * Hyperbyte sighs | |
| 12:29 | <jason_> Hyperbyte: I'm on a different box today.
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| 12:29 | <Hyperbyte> You know what's funny, Jason.
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| 12:29 | There are people in here who try things, and get 90% there.
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| 12:30 | <jason_> Hyperbyte: the ubuntu instance you were helping me with yesterday still exists.
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| 12:30 | <Hyperbyte> And then we offere to help them with the next 10%. :P
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| 12:30 | And out of the blue they go and reinstall, or try something completely different.
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| 12:30 | I never get that. :)
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| 12:30 | <jason_> Hyperbyte: well, I didn't demolish yesterday's install.
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| 12:30 | <Hyperbyte> Well, that's good. :P
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| 12:30 | <jason_> I'm just in a different building where I don't have yesterday's system with me.
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| 12:31 | I saw a Debian PPC CD on my desk I had forgotten I burned and have an old eMac sitting here.
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| 12:31 | Figured why not?
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| 12:31 | Takes a few seconds to slap the CD in and install and a few more seconds to see if I can build a chroot once LTSP is installed :P
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| 12:31 | Tomorrow I'll be back in that other building with that box.
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| 12:31 | <Hyperbyte> Okay.
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| 12:32 | Tomorrow it is then.
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| 12:32 | I know zip about Debian.
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| 12:32 | <jason_> I might not get anywhere anyway.
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| 12:32 | Yaboot is fialing to install.
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| 12:35 | I wish PPC systems were easy to pull images from with clonezilla.
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| 12:35 | That way I could bounce this system back to my old Ubuntu install without headache.
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| 12:38 | <Hyperbyte> mhm
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| 12:40 | <jason_> Hyperbyte: is ubuntu the OS you use most with LTSP?
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| 12:41 | <alkisg> So how many of those PPCs do you have?
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| 12:42 | <jason_> uh
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| 12:42 | 9 schools... every library in every school has about 15-30...
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| 12:42 | not to mention up to 3 per classroom
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| 12:42 | there's quite a lot.
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| 12:42 | <alkisg> Yeah, it's worth the trouble then
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| 12:43 | So you've one ppc up and running, and it's ltsp-build-client that fails?
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| 12:43 | <jason_> the problem is some resources the students use these systems for are, obviously, PowerPC... but updated browsers on PowerPC is gone...
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| 12:43 | So Mac + PPC = no go... it just has no future. None.
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| 12:43 | But suddenly Linux on PPC... that has a potentially bright future for us.
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| 12:43 | Well I have one of each. I have a 10.04 LTSP Intel box and I tried using a PPC Chroot I got from a Fedora host, but that failed.
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| 12:44 | The client gets an IP, I can see it in the log and lease, but that's it. It never successfully netboots to the image.
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| 12:44 | Likewise I have a PPC system that I just tanked cause Debian failed to install Yaboot. So I'm just putting Ubuntu back on it.
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| 12:45 | <alkisg> What was the error message?
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| 12:45 | <jason_> I never got an error message.
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| 12:45 | Mac's don't display the PXE boot screen like regular systems do.
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| 12:45 | It's just a flashing network icon to signify that it is network booting.
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| 12:45 | <alkisg> "Debian failed to install Yaboo"
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| 12:45 | About that ^
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| 12:45 | <jason_> Oh, that was it.
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| 12:45 | It just said failed.
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| 12:45 | Never said why.
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| 12:45 | <alkisg> Yaboot isn't preinstalled, you need to manually install it
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| 12:46 | <jason_> It suggested I continue the installation without it because the error may not be related.
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| 12:46 | <alkisg> That messages always appears when you run ltsp-build-client
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| 12:46 | And most people don't need it so they just ignore the message
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| 12:46 | <jason_> pardon? I'm talking about installing Debian on the server itself.
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| 12:46 | On my PPC test-server.
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| 12:46 | I have two test servers I'm tinkering with.
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| 12:46 | (sorry this is going to sound confusing)
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| 12:46 | An Intel box with Ubuntu 10.04, and this PPC box with an attempted Debian install.
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| 12:47 | <alkisg> Ah, I thought you did install debian, and that message was from ltsp-build-client, when you tried creating a chroot
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| 12:47 | <jason_> This PPC box was meant for Ubuntu 10.04.
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| 12:47 | So Ic ould have an Intel and PPC 10.04 Ubuntu box for testing.
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| 12:47 | So that way if I needed the PPC box to make the chroot, it was here and ready.
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| 12:47 | But I kept thinking, ya know, Debian and PPC sounds like a more stable marriage than Ubuntu and PPC, so I tried Debian and, here we are...failed install...
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| 12:47 | so in a minute or two when my CD is done burning I'll put Ubuntu 10.04 back on it.
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| 12:50 | alkisg: one thing I wasn't sure of... is the pxe config on the crossarchltsp page THE pxe config I should use?
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| 12:51 | <alkisg> I've never done any crossarch deployments, I've never even seated on a ppc
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| 12:51 | <jason_> Haaa. Lucky :P
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| 12:52 | <alkisg> So, no idea, but yes, it sounds like that is what you need
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| 12:52 | <jason_> alkisg: when you build a chroot, does it retain any operating system specific items?
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| 12:52 | <alkisg> And where did the ubuntu ppc installation got stuck?
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| 12:52 | <jason_> well
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| 12:53 | I didnt have a PPC machine in that building yesterday to install Ubuntu and generate a PPC chroot
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| 12:53 | so I googled and found one from Fedora
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| 12:53 | <alkisg> debootstrap is used to build the chroot, and that does put OS specific parts in it
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| 12:53 | <jason_> which made me wonder if a Fedora generated PPC Chroot would work in Ubuntu
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| 12:53 | Nonetheless the Ubuntu Intel Server/Fedora PPC Chroot failed.
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| 12:53 | <mgariepy> good morning everyone
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| 12:53 | <alkisg> Hi mgariepy
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| 12:54 | <jason_> If the chroot is 100% agnostic towards all platforms I figured that was a bad sign if it failed. But if it's not 100% agnostic, there's hope getting a chroot from an Ubuntu PPC system would help me on my Ubuntu Intel server.
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| 12:54 | hello mgariepy
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| 12:55 | <alkisg> First part is to make it work with a ppc server and a ppc client
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| 12:55 | Moving the installation to your intel server is the second part...
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| 12:55 | <jason_> Last I tried Ubuntu PPC Server, it wa sfailing to build the chroot. Someone in here (I believe vagrantc) was telling me to use a --mirror tag.
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| 12:55 | to pull in PPC related items to build that chroot.
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| 12:56 | I hadn't gotten past that part and my Debian curiosity tanked that system so, I'll rebuild it now on Ubuntu and see what I get
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| 12:56 | <Hyperbyte> jason_, stop for a second.
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| 12:56 | <alkisg> Either --mirror, or --copy-sources
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| 12:56 | <Hyperbyte> It's time to debug your first attempt, find out where it went wrong.
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| 12:56 | <jason_> with Ubuntu PPC Server?
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| 12:57 | <Hyperbyte> You had it almost working I think, just problem with NBD images since Fedora uses NFS by default, meaning the instructions you followed were incomplete
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| 12:57 | You're getting into much trouble than you were before.
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| 12:57 | <jason_> Hyperbyte: that server is in another building.
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| 12:57 | That, at earliest, won't be troubleshoot-able till tomorrow.
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| 12:57 | <Hyperbyte> Well, then re-do what you did yesterday.
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| 12:57 | <jason_> That's the problem.
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| 12:57 | <Hyperbyte> Or wait until tomorrow, yeah.
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| 12:57 | Better.
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| 12:57 | <jason_> Here, I have no spare Intel servers. BUT I have a spare PPC box.
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| 12:57 | There, I have no spare PPC boxes. BUT I have a spare Intel server.
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| 12:58 | <alkisg> (03:57:10 μμ) Hyperbyte: You had it almost working I think, just problem with NBD images since Fedora uses NFS by default ==> didn't he say he didn't even get an initramfs?
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| 12:58 | <jason_> Setting up this Ubuntu PPC system is hardly an issue in between my remote sessions I'm working on, so I figured it wasn't a loss to set it up again since I'm married to my desk right now to get these projects done a while anyway
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| 12:58 | alkisg: but it's a mac system I was booting.
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| 12:58 | I can't see *anything* besides the fact the server gave the system an IP
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| 12:59 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, he's been messing with pxelinux.0/default.cfg and a Fedora NFS chroot on an Ubuntu NBD server.
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| 12:59 | <alkisg> jason_, when the kernel loads, won't it show stuff to your screen?
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| 12:59 | <jason_> alkisg: on the iBook I tried to pxeboot off the Intel server, I saw nothing besides it flashing a network icon.
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| 12:59 | <alkisg> That's still in the initramfs, before nbd or nfs is mounted
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| 12:59 | <jason_> Which is normal for Mac systems network booting.
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| 13:00 | <Hyperbyte> Right, but since you've been messing with your pxelinux.0/default.cfg
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| 13:00 | I'm very curious to see what you have in there, and how that works with your TFTP server.
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| 13:00 | <alkisg> So. If you put an ubuntu live CD. And remove "quiet splash" from the command line. You won't see the kernel spitting text messages? The same will be true over the network too
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| 13:00 | <alkisg> *installation cd, no need for it to be live
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| 13:04 | <jason_> hmm... wait a second
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| 13:04 | pxe would have to be altered for powerpc instead of i386, right?
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| 13:04 | the only file I changed that I saw on the crossarch page was dhcp
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| 13:04 | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPCrossArchSetup
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| 13:04 | <Hyperbyte> Yessir.
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| 13:05 | <jason_> It has an entry down below
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| 13:05 | <Hyperbyte> And you'd have to build an NBD image from your ppc chroot
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| 13:05 | <jason_> /opt/ltsp/powerpc
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| 13:05 | which was previously /opt/ltsp/i386
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| 13:05 | <Hyperbyte> All this I would've explained to you while fixing your problem.
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| 13:05 | =)
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| 13:05 | <jason_> Well somebody was a bit busy yesterday too. :P
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| 13:05 | haha totally kidding
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| 13:05 | I had to ;)
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| 13:05 | <Hyperbyte> Hah
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| 13:05 | Touche.
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| 13:05 | ;-)
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| 13:06 | <jason_> Yeah it's just a little tight with me traveling to different buildings throughout the week.
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| 13:06 | I have available gear scattered here, there, yet not over here, some different stuff there, etc.
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| 13:06 | <Hyperbyte> I could never work like that. :P
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| 13:06 | <jason_> I enjoy it. for some.. strange... reason?
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| 13:06 | something different every day
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| 13:06 | just a PITA when I NEED something
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| 13:07 | <Hyperbyte> How about tomorrow? You back at your Ubuntu location?
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| 13:07 | <jason_> Sure am. BUT... if I get the Ubuntu PPC one done today with where I'm at....
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| 13:07 | where would that leave us?
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| 13:08 | <stgraber> alkisg: when are you arriving in SW Harbor?
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| 13:08 | <Hyperbyte> jason_, what do you have there now? Same setup as other building?
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| 13:08 | <jason_> Yesterday's building = Intel 10.04 Server, iBook clients. Today's building = PPC eMac with upgraded RAM and soon to be 10.04, iBook clients.
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| 13:08 | <alkisg> stgraber: along with Gadi, so not sure about the time. I believe Thursday, though
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| 13:08 | <jason_> same clients in each. But the servers are different.
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| 13:08 | <stgraber> alkisg: ah right, you're driving from NYC, forgot about that :)
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| 13:09 | <Hyperbyte> Different arch?
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| 13:09 | <jason_> Hyperbyte: clients are identical. Intel server vs PPC server.
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| 13:09 | both 10.04 though
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| 13:09 | <stgraber> alkisg: trying to make a mental list of who we need to pick up at the airport ;)
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| 13:09 | <alkisg> stgraber: put me in the list with people leaving on sunday with the same flight for the uds ;)
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| 13:10 | <Hyperbyte> jason_, what is your target setup? What are you deploying? Intel servers or PPC servers?
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| 13:11 | <jason_> Hyperbyte: Intel servers, PPC clients. I had read that it may not be possible for my Intel server to generate a PPC chroot for my clients, whcih gave me the idea to fire up Ubuntu on a PPC system to build the chroot.
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| 13:11 | <alkisg> jason_: the first easiest step would be to have a ppc server and a ppc client, so try to get 2 ppc clients to try that setup
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| 13:11 | <jason_> alkisg: that's my goal today.
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| 13:11 | <alkisg> Then you just copy the tftp dir and the /opt/ltsp dir and you're done
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| 13:11 | <jason_> ahh yeah, because tftp would contain pxelinux with the proper settings
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| 13:12 | <Hyperbyte> No, it will contain the proper kernel.
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| 13:12 | <jason_> oh?
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| 13:12 | wheres pxelinux reside?
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| 13:12 | <Hyperbyte> Well in the same dir
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| 13:12 | But pxelinux settings just refer to the kernel.
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| 13:12 | <alkisg> Do ppcs actually use pxelinux? Or they directly load yaboot?
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| 13:13 | <jason_> Well yaboot is what PPCs use... I'm not sure if their "netboot" function would utilize PXE in regard to LTSP though.
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| 13:13 | <ogra_> jason_, i have a dhcpd conf somewhere for yaboot usage
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| 13:13 | <jason_> yaboot is what failed to install with Debian PPC earlier... *shrug*
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| 13:13 | ogra_: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPCrossArchSetup ?????
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| 13:13 | <alkisg> In the cross arch page, I see pxelinux used only for non-powerpc clients
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| 13:13 | While powerpc clients use filename "/ltsp/yaboot";
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| 13:14 | <ogra_> http://people.canonical.com/~ogra/dhcpd.conf
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| 13:14 | that one used to work in the past
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| 13:14 | but thats ages ago
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| 13:14 | <alkisg> Yup, that's what's in the wiki page too
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| 13:14 | <ogra_> ah, k
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| 13:14 | <jason_> ogra_: yeah that one looks like the crossarch page.
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| 13:14 | many thanks though! :)
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| 13:16 | <alkisg> ogra_: when ppcs load the kernel with no "quiet splash", the kernel does show text, right?
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| 13:16 | So one would have to see that first, before troubleshooting nbd/nfs...
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| 13:16 | <ogra_> it should<, yes
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| 13:16 | <alkisg> ty
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| 13:16 | jason_: ^^
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| 13:16 | <jason_> ogra_: have you done PPC LTSP deployments?
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| 13:16 | alkisg: got it :)
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| 13:16 | <ogra_> jason_, no, i only did the PPC implementation back then
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| 13:17 | around 2006
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| 13:17 | <jason_> gotcha
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| 13:17 | <ogra_> cliebow deploys them regulary in his schools
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| 13:17 | but i havent seen him around for ages
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| 13:17 | <alkisg> !seen cliebow
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| 13:17 | <ltsp> alkisg: cliebow was last seen in #ltsp 1 week, 0 days, 20 hours, 37 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <cliebow> jammcq:you gonna put up a webpage?
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| 13:17 | <jason_> hm, I wonder how often he frequents here.
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| 13:17 | I'll have to keep an eye out
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| 13:18 | alkisg: so tftp and /opt/ltsp recursively are the only folders I, in theory, should need?
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| 13:19 | <alkisg> Yes, and of course the dhcpd configuration
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| 13:19 | <jason_> right. from the crossarch page.
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| 13:19 | <alkisg> You'll need a ppc "server" for maintaining the whole installation. So decide on a distro, and try to solve each problem you encounter, like Hyperbyte says
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| 13:19 | <jason_> oh yes
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| 13:19 | <alkisg> And keep that "server" around so that you can update your chroot etc
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| 13:19 | <jason_> this PPC box will still be needed.
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| 13:20 | <alkisg> Then you just rsync to the ubuntu server when you need to update it
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| 13:39 | <alkisg> jason_: just curious, could you take a minute of your time to try out this? http://www.typingtest.com
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| 13:40 | <jason_> what should I try out? Making sure the site shows up or doing a 1 minute test?
| |
| 13:40 | <alkisg> Doing the test :D
| |
| 13:41 | * alkisg is just wondering why he can only type one sentence every 3 of your sentenses :) | |
| 13:42 | <jason_> 97 words a minute, 1 error
| |
| 13:42 | <alkisg> Very good... /me was at 72
| |
| 13:42 | <jason_> My max I ever hit was 122. But that was only a single sentence. :(
| |
| 13:43 | <alkisg> With greek chars I can go much faster, but I don't think I could ever do 120 :)
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| 13:43 | <Hyperbyte> <-- 90
| |
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| 13:44 | <jason_> highest sustained was 83 words a minute for 8 minutes straight.
| |
| 13:44 | 2 errors.
| |
| 13:44 | but that was in high school....
| |
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| 15:00 | <jason_> finally...
| |
| 15:01 | Ubuntu takes quite a bit longer on an older PPC eMac than it does on a standard dual core desktop... geez.
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| 15:40 | <nubae> hi
| |
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| 15:40 | <nubae> so.... how does one install vmware and vm sessions within a fatclient environment?
| |
| 15:41 | anyone done that?
| |
| 15:41 | vbox is fine too
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| 15:51 | <abeehc> I don't follow
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| 15:51 | <abeehc> like on the fat client you want vmware workstation or something?
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| 16:01 | <nubae> yes
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| 16:01 | within it, running a winxp session
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| 16:01 | available to most fatclients if possible
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| 16:02 | anyway, must run, talk from home, leaving school now
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| 19:39 | <jason_> all right...
| |
| 19:39 | finally trying out this ppc thing
| |
| 19:40 | what mirror would I utilize to make it fly in the build command since the build command is currently failing?
| |
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| 19:45 | <alkisg> jason_: post the full log to pastebin
| |
| 19:45 | And the contents of your sources.list, both from your "server" and your chroot
| |
| 19:45 | <jason_> I don't have a chroot
| |
| 19:45 | trying to build one now but it errors out
| |
| 19:45 | <alkisg> You should have a broken chroot
| |
| 19:45 | <jason_> let me pastebin the rest a while
| |
| 19:46 | oh
| |
| 19:46 | gotcha
| |
| 19:46 | also
| |
| 19:46 | is it --arch powerpc or --arch ppc?
| |
| 19:46 | <alkisg> You don't need that param
| |
| 19:46 | It's the same arch as the one you're using
| |
| 19:47 | <jason_> ah
| |
| 19:47 | that's why I used it before
| |
| 19:47 | <alkisg> dpkg --print-architecture, if you're curious
| |
| 19:47 | <jason_> 64 bit server 32 bit clients
| |
| 19:47 | on my last setup...
| |
| 19:51 | alkisg: I'm seeing nothing in my syslog. I tailed it when building, it says nothing.
| |
| 19:52 | alkisg: I'm going to pastebin the rest a while
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| 19:53 | http://pastebin.com/3RbxR6iU
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| 19:53 | http://pastebin.com/2mgUNqjU
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| 19:53 | that first sources is from the server
| |
| 19:54 | there is no sources within chroot. the only contents are var and debootstrap
| |
| 19:57 | <alkisg> There's a ".gz" missing there from "couldn't download Packages"?
| |
| 19:57 | http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/dists/lucid/main/binary-powerpc/
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| 19:58 | <jason_> dumb question
| |
| 19:58 | "where" is it missing from
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| 19:59 | <alkisg> error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally
| |
| 19:59 | E: Couldn't download dists/lucid/main/binary-powerpc/Packages
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| 20:00 | <jason_> right... hmm maybe I misunderstand what the point of it is...
| |
| 20:00 | am I to download this packages file?
| |
| 20:00 | or just use that url?
| |
| 20:01 | <alkisg> I mean that there's a bug somewhere which makes apt try to download "Packages" without adding the ".gz" extension, and that's why it fails
| |
| 20:01 | But I'm not sure about that; it's just an idea
| |
| 20:01 | <jason_> oh
| |
| 20:01 | hm
| |
| 20:01 | so should I edit the sources?
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| 20:02 | <alkisg> I think it'd be best if you put Debug::Acquire::http in your apt configuration
| |
| 20:02 | This way you'll see the exact URLs it's trying to access
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| 20:02 | <jason_> in my apt config... as in my sources.list?
| |
| 20:03 | <Levende> Oh! there's a Linux terminal services project! I've been setting up diskless TS clients for schools and libraries in my area, for years.... didn't know there was a project dedicated to this. Looking forward to contributing =)
| |
| 20:03 | <jason_> Levende: it works pretty awesome too :P
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| 20:03 | <alkisg> $ cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/50debug
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| 20:03 | Debug::Acquire::http "true";
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| 20:03 | jason_: ^
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| 20:04 | <jason_> I have no 50debug
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| 20:04 | <Levende> well, appart from the already existing standard services, tftp, dhcp, etc, I dunno what kind of contributions LTSP is making.... package to integrate everything? regardless, looking forward to contributing where I can
| |
| 20:05 | <alkisg> jason_: yes I meant that you'd create such a file
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| 20:05 | !ltsp-source
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| 20:05 | <ltsp> alkisg: ltsp-source: at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-trunk/files
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| 20:05 | <alkisg> Levende: have a look there ^
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| 20:05 | <jason_> so create a text file in that directory which its only contents is debug::acquire::http "true";
| |
| 20:05 | is that what you're referring to?
| |
| 20:05 | <alkisg> E.g. sound forwarding, usb file systems forwarding, localapps, fat clients etc
| |
| 20:05 | <jason_> because "cat" threw me off
| |
| 20:05 | <alkisg> jason_: yes
| |
| 20:06 | But it appears that debootstrap doesn't use apt... or something
| |
| 20:06 | So never mind, let's search for another way to make debootstrap print the URLs
| |
| 20:06 | jason_: just to make sure that the problem isn't ltsp related, try this:
| |
| 20:07 | sudo debootstrap lucid /tmp/lucid
| |
| 20:07 | And see if you get the same problem
| |
| 20:08 | * Hyperbyte burps | |
| 20:08 | <Hyperbyte> 'xcuse me.
| |
| 20:08 | <Levende> I'm especially interested in helping schools in our area move to linux-based terminal services, as most schools in our area are running Windows XP, and it won't be long before MS drops support for this OS...can't expect all schools and libraries to have the funds to upgrade, ya know?
| |
| 20:09 | <alkisg> We've migrated about 250 schools here, went well so far
| |
| 20:09 | <Levende> nice!
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| 20:12 | <Hyperbyte> Hah
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| 20:13 | alkisg: http://users.recreatie-zorg.nl/jan/highfive.jpg
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| 20:13 | <Levende> do you guys have a facebook group at all, just wondering... couldn't find anything
| |
| 20:14 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: that looks suspiciously like this one: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Fa80zAPdJN8/SR3Pmeb_JiI/AAAAAAAAAPg/jNN4vLzPV1c/s400/Double_Moutza.jpg
| |
| 20:14 | :P
| |
| 20:14 | <jason_> alkisg: that command is coming along so far with no error.
| |
| 20:14 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, one hands looks suspiciously like another yes. I believe all human beings have similar hands.
| |
| 20:15 | ....
| |
| 20:15 | By design.
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| 20:15 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: erm... it might be a greek thing then...
| |
| 20:16 | We do that open palm thing when we want to swear at e.g. a car driver
| |
| 20:16 | It basically means "you're a moron" :D
| |
| 20:16 | And with two hands, it's twice the quantity
| |
| 20:16 | * mmetzger grumbles to himself about lts.conf... | |
| 20:20 | <alkisg> jason_: when you try ltsp-build-client again, run a `ps aux | grep debootstrap` in a loop, so that we see which parameters ltsp is using for debootstrap
| |
| 20:20 | Because it sounds like it's an ltsp problem
| |
| 20:22 | <jason_> all right. it's still running the previous command though.
| |
| 20:23 | <alkisg> You can safely ctrl+c that one
| |
| 20:23 | Or you can wait to see if it actually succeeds,whatever you want
| |
| 20:24 | <jason_> does the ps aux command you provided loop it?
| |
| 20:24 | or are you telling me to loop it
| |
| 20:25 | <alkisg> I'm telling you to loop it, so that you see the debootstrap parameters, in case it stops too quicklyl
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| 20:25 | <jason_> okay...
| |
| 20:25 | <alkisg> (sorry for not being too clear; trying to setup a launchpad recipe for automatic building of some packages and I'm a bit lost...)
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| 20:26 | <jason_> it's okay. I'm just not sure how to do some things such as looping it. But I'll figure it out and get back.
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| 20:27 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, you know what a 'high five' is don't you?
| |
| 20:27 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: sure, don't worry :) But here in Greece we do it with fingers close to each other, because if they're apart, then it's a "moutza", which as a said means that the receiver is a moron :D
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| 20:28 | <Hyperbyte> How about when you make a high five gesture with fingers closed and then space them out just before you hit the other hand?
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| 20:28 | <alkisg> We don't space them out
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| 20:28 | <Hyperbyte> ... nevermind
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| 20:29 | <alkisg> Hehe
| |
| 20:29 | Cultural differences :D
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| 20:29 | <Hyperbyte> No
| |
| 20:29 | I meant
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| 20:29 | <alkisg> OK ok point lost
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| 20:29 | <Hyperbyte> You make your Greek high five sign, and then do "moutza" just before you hit the other hand.
| |
| 20:29 | But it's a lame joke anyway.
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| 20:29 | <alkisg> Haha
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| 20:29 | That could work in some cases :D
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| 20:35 | <Hyperbyte> mhm
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| 21:46 | <mmetzger> Ok, pulling my hair out on this...
| |
| 21:46 | <Hyperbyte> mmetzger, don't worry. It grows back.
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| 21:46 | <mmetzger> Hyperbyte: Not at this stage of my life...
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| 21:46 | <Hyperbyte> Oh.
| |
| 21:47 | Well then there's an even easier solution
| |
| 21:47 | Stop pulling.
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| 21:47 | :P
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| 21:47 | <mmetzger> Hence, a question (or few...)
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| 21:47 | <Hyperbyte> Question one!
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| 21:47 | <mmetzger> The lts.conf SERVER parameter... does it actually work?
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| 21:47 | (10.04 LTS)
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| 21:48 | * Hyperbyte shrugs. Never needed it. | |
| 21:48 | <Hyperbyte> Next question?
| |
| 21:49 | <mmetzger> Scenario is one LTSP server providing the DHCP/TFTP/PXE services, with the client trying to connect to a different server
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| 21:49 | <Hyperbyte> Why?
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| 21:49 | For the record, you don't need LTSP installed to serve the correct DHCP lease or serve the correct TFTP image.
| |
| 21:50 | <mmetzger> Right - but I needed it to do the image
| |
| 21:50 | <Hyperbyte> It's easily done I think, but let's stick with the 'why?' first.
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| 21:50 | <mmetzger> The why is due to a security related requirement by my client - basically each user must be completely separated, even down to the "hw" level
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| 21:51 | <mmetzger> So each LTSP thin client should connect to a different "server" to run their desktop / apps / etc.
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| 21:53 | <Hyperbyte> In Linux, users are seperated.
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| 21:54 | <mmetzger> I know - this is a very specific need of each user needing to look like a different network connection / different host system / etc.
| |
| 21:54 | <Hyperbyte> Can I ask more about the why?
| |
| 21:55 | <mmetzger> Sure
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| 21:55 | <Hyperbyte> Okay. Why does your client want each user on a different network connection?
| |
| 21:57 | <mmetzger> For the work that the users will do, it needs to look that way. Unfortunately I have to be a little coy here, but basically I'm trying to keep from putting a full desktop client on each users' desk even though they need the capabilities of a full system.
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| 21:57 | <Hyperbyte> I don't understand -why- though
| |
| 21:59 | The different hosts for each users I can get into, this I can see from some standpoint. Although it's not impossible to do with one server, depending on the type of traffic.
| |
| 21:59 | <mmetzger> Ok, consider that each user needs to do anti-virus research that can infect the entire system. Each user needs to have multiple accounts, some with sudo access, and the ability to make any change they see fit.
| |
| 21:59 | <Hyperbyte> But onto the next issue - why do you not want a full desktop client on each users' desk?
| |
| 22:00 | Well duh - you'd do the anti-virus research inside a virtual machine of course.
| |
| 22:00 | But I rest my case - what's wrong with full desktop clients?
| |
| 22:01 | You can instruct LTSP to build a fat client, rather than thin client, and then you have your full desktop systems, with all the benefits of LTSP.
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| 22:01 | <mmetzger> Re: VM, that's what we're trying to do. I want LTSP to boot thin clients that point to a running VM on another system.
| |
| 22:02 | As for the LTSP fat client, understood as an option
| |
| 22:02 | But let's assume for a second the lts.conf option of SERVER works as described, it should simply point to another server that has the appropriate services running
| |
| 22:04 | Either way, I do appreciate the help
| |
| 22:06 | <Hyperbyte> I'm not sure if SERVER is what you're looking for. I think you can only do this via LDM sessions.
| |
| 22:06 | But maybe I'm completely wrong on this.
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| 22:07 | <Hyperbyte> I was thinking you should run a VM inside the thin client environment by the way. Just have the users start VirtualBox or something to do their anti-virus research. You'd need a massive server though probably.
| |
| 22:09 | <mmetzger> The AV research was more of a description of the type of thing needed, but not exactly what's required. These users wouldn't really understand vbox...
| |
| 22:09 | Though I am tempted to see how that performs for the pure heck of it...
| |
| 22:10 | <Hyperbyte> It's not like a virtual machine is complicated...
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| 22:11 | <mmetzger> understood...
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| 22:11 | <Hyperbyte> Either way!
| |
| 22:11 | I'm off to bed.
| |
| 22:11 | Good luck.
| |
| 22:12 | <mmetzger> Thanks - and thanks for the suggestions
| |
| 22:12 | <Hyperbyte> You're welcome!
| |
| 22:16 | <andygraybeals> hmm.. you could run a bunch of virtual machines on the server... and tie each virtual machine to a console onto ltsp... so ctrl-alt-f2 is a machine; and each machine is different from the one that another client is using.
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| 22:16 | Hyperbyte, to go along with what you were saying
| |
| 22:17 | <mmetzger> andygraybeals: That's effectively what I'm trying to do, I just want the ldm screen to login to the destination VM instead of the LTSP server
| |
| 22:18 | <andygraybeals> then you got it, sorry if i am saying the same thing you just said.
| |
| 22:18 | i guess i didn't understand.
| |
| 22:18 | when you say effectively, do you mean in effect.. or do you mean exactly?
| |
| 22:19 | <mmetzger> It's very close - basically it's a 1:1 User/VM mapping
| |
| 22:19 | (and no need to be sorry, I understand this is a little screwy, I appreciate the help)
| |
| 22:19 | <andygraybeals> i've been thinking about doing the same thing.. (on a much smaller scale) just have one virtual machine accessible from one console.
| |
| 22:20 | well you can map it based on the workstation
| |
| 22:20 | i don't know how you would map it to the user.
| |
| 22:20 | you can give the workstation a name and control what consoles attach to it
| |
| 22:20 | <mmetzger> In this circumstance the user and workstation are the same
| |
| 22:20 | <andygraybeals> aah then you have it.
| |
| 22:20 | that makes it doable
| |
| 22:20 | <mmetzger> I guess that's what I'm having problems with as that doesn't seem to work...
| |
| 22:20 | <andygraybeals> ah lemme refresh myself with lts.conf sorry
| |
| 22:21 | i'm not very good with this like the others.
| |
| 22:21 | it'll take me a minute
| |
| 22:21 | what .. your using ubuntu?
| |
| 22:21 | <mmetzger> Yes, lucid
| |
| 22:23 | <andygraybeals> k that is what i use too, still reading the lts.conf
| |
| 22:23 | you saw the screen_01, screen_02 stuff, correct?
| |
| 22:24 | what operating system are you using in the virtual machines that they will be accessing from their workstations?
| |
| 22:24 | <mmetzger> yes, though I haven't tried anything specific with that as I didn't quite grok how to use that for this purpose.
| |
| 22:24 | The VMs will be 10.04 as well (for now at least.)
| |
| 22:25 | <andygraybeals> okay, then wait for someone with more experience than me.. but what your asking is doable.
| |
| 22:25 | i'm sorry i'm not capable of helping you
| |
| 22:25 | <mmetzger> No, I appreciate the help, even if it's a "you're not (entirely) crazy"
| |
| 22:26 | <andygraybeals> you can assign a screen.. i've been calling them consoles... to a certain machine and have it point to a virtual machine.
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| 22:26 | like.. if it was a windows box, you'd set it to rdesktop
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| 22:26 | since it's an ubuntu box.. maybe it is the xdmp ? this is what i'm not familiar with
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| 22:26 | xdmcp i mean
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| 22:27 | i wish there were more examples.. you are reading the lts.conf readme right? http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/lucid/man5/lts.conf.5.html
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| 22:27 | <mmetzger> That'd be the one... :)
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| 22:27 | <andygraybeals> so you can assign this to the machines' MAC addresses
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| 22:28 | it would be a tedious setup, and not very scalable, and hard ot manage.. but it is doable, and does sound like fun.
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| 22:28 | how many users are you talking?
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| 22:28 | and how many vm's would they be accessing?
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| 22:28 | <mmetzger> No more than 10 to start with, so not a huge deal.
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| 22:29 | Each user / machine would only be connecting to a single VM (of their own)
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| 22:29 | <andygraybeals> aaah okay
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| 22:29 | then that is not bad
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| 22:30 | it is funny you bring this up because this is called VDI
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| 22:30 | <vagrantc> each thin client only log in to a specific machine?
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| 22:30 | <andygraybeals> and they are talking about this in ... a zentyal forum and #zentyal
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| 22:30 | <mmetzger> vagrantc: Yep
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| 22:31 | <andygraybeals> see the thing is.. this is what i don't understand -- when you do this you miss the 'goodness' of LTSP management ease.
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| 22:31 | you still have to maintain the seperate virtual machines.
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| 22:31 | <mmetzger> andygraybeals: We're basically trying to avoid a standard windows VDI due to cost and complexity...
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| 22:31 | andygraybeals: It's because it's easier for us to reset a VM to a known state (and setup more of them) than it is to try and do the same with a physical box.
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| 22:31 | <andygraybeals> or maybe..... i go it now.. each virtual machine will be booting off of the ltsp server....
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| 22:32 | i'm totally going into like some fractal swirl here in my mind.. i like it.
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| 22:32 | <mmetzger> Close - it's really that the LTSP server resides in its own VM, and the VM's they use also reside on the platform.
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| 22:32 | <Levende> kinda confused as to why "ltsp-build-client" is downloading and unpacking so much... all you need to deply terminal services is tftp,nfs,dhcp and x11 services..... all of which I have configured myself, when I was deploying diskless terminal services 6 years ago. I'm curious WHAT is going on here GB and GB of data is being downloaded
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| 22:34 | it almost seems like an entire OS is being extracted to a directory
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| 22:34 | <vagrantc> spot on.
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| 22:34 | Levende: that's exactly what LTSP is
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| 22:35 | <andygraybeals> mmetzger, you lose the ingenious ease of management that ltsp gives you on the virtual machines... but maybe... you are booting the virtual machines as thick clients themselves??
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| 22:36 | see.. that's what is trippin me out and i would have to experiement.. an ltsp client booting to a LDM that gives them a 'screen' that xdcmp's to another ltsp client... totally trippy.. and now i've just confused myself.
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| 22:36 | i was in the sun too much today.
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| 22:36 | so just ignore me
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| 22:36 | <mmetzger> andygraybeals: Not in this case. I understand the lack of management for typical user behavior, this is a funky use case
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| 22:37 | <Levende> when I setup terminal services myself for a school, 6 or 7 years ago, all that was needed was for the client to boot a kernel over the network and start an X session to the local server where an x-11 instance was created.... I'm confused why you have to have practicly an entire distro in a directory now
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| 22:37 | sorry for my ignorance, it's just been a while since I've done terminal services
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| 22:37 | <mmetzger> Son of a...
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| 22:37 | I think I found the problem...
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| 22:42 | <andygraybeals> mmetzger, well just don't leave us in the dark
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| 22:46 | <mmetzger> andygraybeals: sorry, had to update some files, testing now
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| 22:47 | <andygraybeals> i'm just having fun, no worries :)
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| 22:47 | <vagrantc> Levende: typically, it only downloads 300MB or so, and installed size less than 1GB ... unless you're using fatclients or localapps
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| 22:48 | <mmetzger> and that was it...
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| 22:49 | Ok, basically, for LDM it has to have the ssh_known_hosts updated with the server's keys
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| 22:49 | <vagrantc> mmetzger: you just need to specify LDM_SERVER for each thin client to point to a different server
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| 22:50 | <mmetzger> vagrantc: I had tried that, but it didn't work until I modified the known_hosts in the ltsp image
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| 22:51 | <vagrantc> mmetzger: yes, you'll have to add the SSH keys for each of your servers in the known_hosts ...
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| 22:51 | <mmetzger> vagrantc: One of those annoying pieces that I'm sure is documented, I just missed it and the errors (or lack therof) were no help
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| 22:51 | <vagrantc> mmetzger: /etc/ltsp/ssh_known_hosts.SERVERNAME with the appropriate entries for each server, an then run ltsp-update-sshkeys
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| 22:52 | <mmetzger> Sweet, that's a much nicer way of doing it...
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| 22:52 | <vagrantc> mmetzger: multiple server setups are not well documented
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| 22:52 | <andygraybeals> hmm i don't see ldm_server in the lts.conf manpage
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| 22:52 | <mmetzger> Fantastic - thank you!
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| 22:52 | <vagrantc> mmetzger: and that's /etc/ltsp/ssh_known_hosts.SERVERNAME on the LTSP server
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| 22:53 | <mmetzger> andygraybeals: straight "SERVER" works too
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| 22:53 | Now to complete my plan with my database backed TFTP server...
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| 22:53 | <andygraybeals> i don't see that in the manpage either
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| 22:53 | <vagrantc> andygraybeals: i guess it's not in there ... it is in the LTSP manual somewhere, though. odd.
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| 22:54 | <andygraybeals> aah okay
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| 22:54 | so just help me for a second.. this is for having multiple ltsp servers? or ?
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| 22:55 | i guess i'll read the ltsp manual again
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| 22:56 | <vagrantc> andygraybeals: could you send an email to ltsp-developer to remind us to get that into the lts.conf manpage
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| 22:56 | <andygraybeals> for sure thing
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| 22:59 | <vagrantc> mmetzger: SERVER has other issues
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| 22:59 | mmetzger: you definitely want to use LDM_SERVER
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| 22:59 | LDM_SERVER is derived from SERVER by default, but SERVER is used for more things than just setting the LDM_SERVER
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| 23:02 | <andygraybeals> vagrantc, can i send to the list w/o being a member?
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| 23:03 | <mmetzger> sweet - thanks all - time to go look at something different for a while...
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| 23:03 | <vagrantc> Levende: it has gotten larger with LTSP 5, because it's using packages from a given distro (typically your host distro), and the package management system, and there has been some code bloat in the last 7+ years... rather than a finely tuned thin-client environment
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| 23:03 | andygraybeals: dunno
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| 23:03 | Levende: so it has some downsides, but the upside is flexibility with packages available and security updates and such.
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| 23:03 | and it's actually feasible to include LTSP in the distro itself
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| 23:05 | <andygraybeals> i should probably join the list to just watch what you guys talk about
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| 23:21 | <andygraybeals> so i'm reading the ltsp manual, and i'm still confused on what LDM_SERVER does. in the manual it says that "the current server that LDM is connected to" ... is a variable.. is it definable?
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| 23:22 | aah chapter 23, session dispatching.. let me keep reading
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| 23:25 | yes, i'm still confused.
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| 23:25 | can i see an example lts.conf with LDM_SERVER being used?
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| 23:32 | <Levende> wait... LTSP still uses tftpd right?
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| 23:34 | <andygraybeals> pretty sure
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| 23:34 | but don't take my word, i suck at this
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| 23:35 | <Levende> openbsd-inetd , nfs and dhcp are the only things I see in the doc that must be started
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| 23:35 | <andygraybeals> nfs isn't by default any longer, as far as i know
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| 23:38 | <Levende> 6 or so years ago I setup an LTSP-like model, I was using tftpd,nfs and dhcp to boot diskless clients that formed an OpenMosix single-system image cluser.... this was all before I knew about the LTSP project
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| 23:38 | so I'm now getting back into things and using LTSP
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| 23:41 | the doc says to comment out the tftpd entry in /etc/inetd.conf:
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| 23:41 | which is why I'm confused
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| 23:41 | <andygraybeals> i tink that is old doc, what are you reading? are you using ubuntu?
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| 23:42 | <Levende> no I am not. I'm using the current LTSP howto, under wiki.debian.org/LTSP/Howto
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| 23:42 | so my question is: what does openbsd-inetd do?
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| 23:43 | I'm not used to all this touchy-feely ubuntu stuff... back in the day I installed "LFS" distros, only there was no linux from scratch at the time lol
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| 23:44 | <andygraybeals> my friend used LFS also
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| 23:44 | aaah.. nice :)
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| 23:45 | well, i'm the classic ubuntard
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| 23:47 | <Levende> but if anyone can tell me what openbsd-inetd does, it would be great... is this for a client to map to a remote root FS?
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